There has to be a reason why this wouldn't be allowed.... right? Although apparently the part about no length or diameter limitations is technically true...
The poles have a weight limit. Plus you need to plant one end into the area in front of the bar, so the only one of these that could be legal is the 2nd one, and only if it was made of a super light material.
The poles have a weight rating, not limit. The vaulter has to be under the rated weight for the pole. You could use a pole that weighs 300lbs, as long as you're under the rated capacity for that pole.
If I construct a bridge between 2 solid mountains, that we can assume will hold any weight I put on them without compressing, shifting, or failing. Then I do not have a weight limit while building the bridge itself. The weight limit only applies once I start moving cars across the bridge. The bridge is the pole, and the cars are the vaulter.
There is still a weight limit, but that is defined by how much the vaulter is physically able to get a benefit out of. Too heavy, and the athlete gets to slow to do a proper jump.
It's a safety margin, not a competition requirement.
Like the difference between specifying the tensile strength of a rope to ensure it won't break, vs the mass of the rope to ensure everyone is lifting the same amount of rope.
There's not technically anything against dogs playing basketball but most school leagues require the players to be enrolled in the school they're playing for and be a certain minimum age, which a dog might have trouble with.
The pole can not touch the area beyond the box before you've cleared the bar, so that one's illegal as well. You also can't move your upper hand, so the whole climbing thing is out.
The maximum height at which a vaulter can mechanically ascend is limited by their energy (as well as initial height and body contortion, which determines center of gravity).
As a human can only put so much energy into a single moment of a system [instant of time in an event like this] (mostly from their sprint speed), and humans have reached about the theoretical limit of efficiency of conversion of kinetic to potential energy in the pole vault (set 1/2mv2 = mgh), a longer pole will not be of any help.
Can you give an example? I've never seen that. The most recent world records certainly don't have that. It's explicitly against the rules -- because it's a common enough circus trick to set a pole vertical, and just climb it, so that'd be trivial.
Citation needed... the best pole vaulters in the world are not even close to being as fast as the best sprinters. Yes, you have to be fast, and being faster is better, but the ability to direct that energy is probably even more important.
You can't just give Usain Bolt a stick, tell him "1/2mv^2 = mgh", and expect him to clear 7m.
See e.g. Yang et al 2021 . This is long known toy problem in physics, notable for being one of the few very simple sports physics problems that works. It's in like half the intro physics textbooks too.
You can calculate it yourself very easily. The 100m dash records put men at about 10 m/s (although they peak on the pole vault approach a bit faster). Add the KE to the pole vaulters COM. Then the final trick is the flop maneuver to get over the bar, which places their COM below the bar, for a few extra cm.
Why doesn't Usain Bolt do the pole vault like he does the long jump? Getting the pole to efficient convert KE to PE, maximizing your velocity at contact, and doing the flop effectively, of course requires a lot of training in the technique. The flop might be also less effective for more powerfully-stoutly built sprint specialists, but I don't know for sure what matters most at the topmost level. Certainly the sprint is just as valuable for the triple jump as it is for the long jump and 100m, but you see different specialists in the final rounds for those. You can compare Armand Duplantis's or other jumpers' 100m times and other event scores yourself.
Getting the first one into many stadiums would be tricky, as access tunnels are generally only large enough for at best a road vehicle of standard sizes (ambulance, vehicle mounted cranes to access roof/lighting).
The competitor has to be unaided while doing the jump attempt, so it still has to be portable by one person.
And then if the pole knocks down the height bar despite you clearing it, it's a failed attempt.
You could win the competition with only one successful jump should no-one else surpass that height, so reusability is not a concern, so long as you know what height to go for on that attempt.
A lot of access tunnels can take a full truck for concerts. What if you made the pole inflatable? Scratch that actually, if you can have an inflatable pole just fill it with helium
The main reason is the same reason dogs can't play basketball - just because something isn't against the rules in the rulebook, doesn't necessarily mean the referee can't disallow it, if it's clearly against the spirit of the competition.
“If you have diabetes, you check your blood sugar, and you check it often. There’s no reason not to. Call Liberty. They can help you have a better life.
Now, I’m gonna go get off my horse by getting onto a smaller horse, and then onto a large dog, until I’m near enough to the ground to roll off.”
You start it rolling with enough momentum and a high enough coefficient of friction, then jump up onto the side and cling on as it 'rolls' you up towards the top. Or just use a ladder.
It’s like one of those circus wheels, the disc is actually two hoops connected by a series of rods like a ladder than was rolled into a circle. So you just climb the circular ladder
It is true that there are no length or diameter limits on a pole vault pole, but there are rules about the approach:
28.2
An athlete fails if:
…
28.2.3
after leaving the ground, they place their lower hand above the upper one or moves the upper hand higher on the pole
That would invalidate the first two. This rule would invalidate the third idea:
28.11 The pole may have layers of tape at the grip end… Any tape at the grip end must be uniform except for incidental overlapping and must not result in any sudden change in diameter, such as the creation of any "ring" on the pole.
At some point you’d have to move your upper hand higher on the pole in order to climb it. Certainly when you’re at the apex of the arch, which itself probably violates the “place the end of the pole in the box” rule.
Rule 28.2.2. An athlete fails if they touch the ground, including the landing area, beyond the vertical plane through the back end of the box with any part of their body or with the pole, without first clearing the bar
Technically the second rules excerpt is only concerned with tape. Would string or rope be technically "tape"? One could argue that point. You could also just use glue, or form the pole into a continuous ring at time of manufacture.
No pre-stored energy..so that pretty much rules out the second one.
Also, one could argue, that in order to be a pole, it must be longer than it is wide, or else it is a disk.
The arch however?
Yeah no, none of these are legal. You need to plant one end of the pole for a vault to count. You're also only allowed to hold the pole in a designated zone.
There has to be a reason why this wouldn't be allowed.... right? Although apparently the part about no length or diameter limitations is technically true...
The poles have a weight limit. Plus you need to plant one end into the area in front of the bar, so the only one of these that could be legal is the 2nd one, and only if it was made of a super light material.
The poles have a weight rating, not limit. The vaulter has to be under the rated weight for the pole. You could use a pole that weighs 300lbs, as long as you're under the rated capacity for that pole.
That just sounds like a weight limit with extra steps.
Isn't what they described a weight limit for the vaulter, if anything?
No, it’s a weight minimum
So we need like a sumo build
If I construct a bridge between 2 solid mountains, that we can assume will hold any weight I put on them without compressing, shifting, or failing. Then I do not have a weight limit while building the bridge itself. The weight limit only applies once I start moving cars across the bridge. The bridge is the pole, and the cars are the vaulter.
There is still a weight limit, but that is defined by how much the vaulter is physically able to get a benefit out of. Too heavy, and the athlete gets to slow to do a proper jump.
It's a safety margin, not a competition requirement.
Like the difference between specifying the tensile strength of a rope to ensure it won't break, vs the mass of the rope to ensure everyone is lifting the same amount of rope.
It’s an engineering rating rather than a rule. So I guess in theory you could just make it out of a better material that can support more weight.
How? at all?
Dang, next you're telling me dogs aren't allowed to play basketball.
There's not technically anything against dogs playing basketball but most school leagues require the players to be enrolled in the school they're playing for and be a certain minimum age, which a dog might have trouble with.
The 3rd one could, if it was rolled just right.
What about a neutrally buoyant pole filed with helium?
Is it a weight limit or a mass limit?
A helium filled cylinder could be very lightweight.
Why fill it with helium rather than vacuum? The weight/mass distinction doesn’t seem relevant here to me.
Why are airships not filled with vacuum?
Implosion risk?
I mainly made the comparison to emphasize why “being filled with Helium” isn’t relevant to the distinction between mass and weight.
The pole can not touch the area beyond the box before you've cleared the bar, so that one's illegal as well. You also can't move your upper hand, so the whole climbing thing is out.
If you turn the 3rd one around, it would stab the ground right before the vault.
You are not allowed to climb the pole.
The maximum height at which a vaulter can mechanically ascend is limited by their energy (as well as initial height and body contortion, which determines center of gravity).
As a human can only put so much energy into a single
moment of a system[instant of time in an event like this] (mostly from their sprint speed), and humans have reached about the theoretical limit of efficiency of conversion of kinetic to potential energy in the pole vault (set 1/2mv2 = mgh), a longer pole will not be of any help.What about a button at the end of the pole which released compressed helium into a balloon when the button presses the ground?
“Technically the pole can be made of a gaseous material!”
Weird, I've seen several world records where they move both of their arms up the pole during the ascent. That's climbing - why were these allowed?
Edit: somehow Mandela-effected myself, oh dear
Can you give an example? I've never seen that. The most recent world records certainly don't have that. It's explicitly against the rules -- because it's a common enough circus trick to set a pole vertical, and just climb it, so that'd be trivial.
Okay wow I'm completely wrong, thanks. Quite a few of them slide their hand just past the pole, but they don't touch it again. Apologies
Maybe you're getting confused with Dutch canal jumping? They climb the pole in that sport.
Citation needed... the best pole vaulters in the world are not even close to being as fast as the best sprinters. Yes, you have to be fast, and being faster is better, but the ability to direct that energy is probably even more important.
You can't just give Usain Bolt a stick, tell him "1/2mv^2 = mgh", and expect him to clear 7m.
See e.g. Yang et al 2021 . This is long known toy problem in physics, notable for being one of the few very simple sports physics problems that works. It's in like half the intro physics textbooks too.
You can calculate it yourself very easily. The 100m dash records put men at about 10 m/s (although they peak on the pole vault approach a bit faster). Add the KE to the pole vaulters COM. Then the final trick is the flop maneuver to get over the bar, which places their COM below the bar, for a few extra cm.
Why doesn't Usain Bolt do the pole vault like he does the long jump? Getting the pole to efficient convert KE to PE, maximizing your velocity at contact, and doing the flop effectively, of course requires a lot of training in the technique. The flop might be also less effective for more powerfully-stoutly built sprint specialists, but I don't know for sure what matters most at the topmost level. Certainly the sprint is just as valuable for the triple jump as it is for the long jump and 100m, but you see different specialists in the final rounds for those. You can compare Armand Duplantis's or other jumpers' 100m times and other event scores yourself.
No, but you just proved that lollipop beats pixie stick given same velocity can be reached.
The quick fat faux jumps over the bouncy rod
The system can be optimized, like Baseball did to bats, by concentrating pole mass at one end.
Like Lizzo topping a palm tree with a chain saw...should whip it good
It's funny to think the optimal vaulter is Tunacan Sam...short, girthy, and quick.
What does any of this even mean? Is this a comedy bit?
It'd be easier for me if you just addressed what you are replying to directly.
Getting the first one into many stadiums would be tricky, as access tunnels are generally only large enough for at best a road vehicle of standard sizes (ambulance, vehicle mounted cranes to access roof/lighting).
The competitor has to be unaided while doing the jump attempt, so it still has to be portable by one person.
And then if the pole knocks down the height bar despite you clearing it, it's a failed attempt.
You could win the competition with only one successful jump should no-one else surpass that height, so reusability is not a concern, so long as you know what height to go for on that attempt.
A lot of access tunnels can take a full truck for concerts. What if you made the pole inflatable? Scratch that actually, if you can have an inflatable pole just fill it with helium
The vehicle mounted cranes I was thinking of are on 8x4 trucks, similar to airport fire tenders.
But yes, I'd be interested to see what part of using a lighter-than-air balloon gets you excluded in the regulations.
You mean monster trucks? a lot of stadiums can take those too.
Nah I mean articulated trucks for stage setup and the like
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JgGuRKgvWQ4&pp=ygUPUmFtbXN0ZWluIHNldHVw
...for now.
The main reason is the same reason dogs can't play basketball - just because something isn't against the rules in the rulebook, doesn't necessarily mean the referee can't disallow it, if it's clearly against the spirit of the competition.
how would the vaulted get up on the disc like pole in the first picture?
A second, smaller, pole
“If you have diabetes, you check your blood sugar, and you check it often. There’s no reason not to. Call Liberty. They can help you have a better life.
Now, I’m gonna go get off my horse by getting onto a smaller horse, and then onto a large dog, until I’m near enough to the ground to roll off.”
Handles? Inset divots or grip-bars? Make it sticky? Air drop (sponsored by a 700nm beverage)?
I feel like there would be rules about that.
"The vaulter's pole shall not contain any cavities large enough to allow for the ingress of any part of the vaulter's body."
When the IOC is looking at JD Vance and trying to keep him away from the equipment.
There goes my idea of just making the pole a working elevator shaft.
Carve some hand holds in the side. Start rolling it then grab on.
You start it rolling with enough momentum and a high enough coefficient of friction, then jump up onto the side and cling on as it 'rolls' you up towards the top. Or just use a ladder.
Get it rolling, then hold on.
It’s like one of those circus wheels, the disc is actually two hoops connected by a series of rods like a ladder than was rolled into a circle. So you just climb the circular ladder
I thinlnthe whole point of the panel was that it was technically still a pole; a solid cylinder just short in length and big in diameter.
It is true that there are no length or diameter limits on a pole vault pole, but there are rules about the approach:
That would invalidate the first two. This rule would invalidate the third idea:
Source: IAAF Rules
What about a very good pogo stick?
I don’t think a spring-loaded stick with foot holds would count as a “pole”
what, like some sort of weird metamaterial that allows the pole to both appear straight, and also engage in some sort of springy telescope action?
If you think about it, pole vaulting sticks ARE very good pogo sticks. Just requires more skill
Does that mean if they climb only using their legs #2 would be allowed?
At some point you’d have to move your upper hand higher on the pole in order to climb it. Certainly when you’re at the apex of the arch, which itself probably violates the “place the end of the pole in the box” rule.
What if you never touch the pole with your hands.
Technically the second rules excerpt is only concerned with tape. Would string or rope be technically "tape"? One could argue that point. You could also just use glue, or form the pole into a continuous ring at time of manufacture.
Are there any limits on this polish person ?
No pre-stored energy..so that pretty much rules out the second one. Also, one could argue, that in order to be a pole, it must be longer than it is wide, or else it is a disk. The arch however?
In the future, please link directly to xkcd.com rather than rehosting the comic.
Okay, thanks for letting me know.
Could we just use huge trampoline? Time limit might be an issue to jump high enough.
Ain't no rules says a pole has to be a pole
disappointed there's no Trebuchet variation here
Yeah no, none of these are legal. You need to plant one end of the pole for a vault to count. You're also only allowed to hold the pole in a designated zone.
Ain't no rules says a pole has to be a pole.
Mondo probably still wins anyway