If your setting is diverse, keep in mind what you might subconsciously consider the default. If you only ever point out the shape of east Asian character eyes, then its kinda weird. If many different characters get eye shape descriptions, it wont stand out.
Some people have a Generic Western Character image in their head and tend to only point out when a character strays from that image, which paints them as other. If you dont do this, I think you'll be ok.
Once you've got character descriptions to work with, you could try running them past beta/sensitivity readers.
Seconding this. The Baru Cormorant series is great at this, it’s a world of mostly brown and black people, and so whenever a white person shows up the protag always points it out in her descriptions. My favorite is when a character refers to a white person as having skin like a chicken sausage
Why is "The chinamen" offensive? I remember hearing people using phrases like the Englishmen or Frenchmen sometimes but generally not in a offensive context
To stsrt with, theres context. For stuff like "Tue Englishman", it was used to describe a persom from england. "The Chinaman" however was a derogatory term, and was used as a catch all for anyone from asia that wasnt from India. You know that King of the Hill scene where the Laotian man is repeatrdly confused for being chinese? Its like that, but rathwe than someome innocently not understanding Asian geography its more like a "I cant be bothered to figure out who any of you are, so I'm just going to call you all a slur."
Hell, in america they would Literally write Chinaman into a census if they didnt know your last name, regardless of if you actually were from China, though admitedly that doesnt seem to have been purely out of malice. This one Chinese-American historuan said its use on the census was sort of like a "John Doe" title.
Barring these specific uses, its just been used as a rude term. If you heard someone say it in the past, dont be surprised if its followed up bt the most racist shit you've heard (like a jumprope song about cutting off a Xue, that ponytail-esque hairstyle). In the early 1800's it was perfectly normal though, hell, some people would even refer to themselves as it before its more racist uses caught on.
TLDR: You'd be riggt to think it isnt bad, for a bit it WASN'T, but more or less every use of it has been at best plagued with racial overtones or at worst straight up erasive of smaller asian nationalities
Yes. You had a naive, though entirely reasonable, outlook on it. I only know this because my grandpa one time went on a little tirade and used it, so I looked some stuff up
Is your setting kind of alternate earth/adjacent/historical where refering to Easterners or those weilding recognisably eastern weapons or attire without too much elaboration still makes cannonical sense?
Otherwise, I've found poetic license can be exercised, because descriptions are just that, and not by making comparisons to unjustifiably derogatory references
As a tangent to the Asian eye-shape conversation: Chinese people are not all pale, and Asians CAN have naturally wavy and curly hair. Your Chinese guy would easily blend in with the locals, especially if he's NOT of a wealthier class who specifically cultivates the "pale skin and straight black hair" look.
In modern times, the "wealthier class" who drives fashion ideals would be celebrities and performers. So watching K-pop and other TV shows like the other person mentioned may not help THAT MUCH, because the people who make it in Asian show-business are the ones with pale skin and straight black hair. Also, last I checked, even Koreans were joking/upset about all their Miss Korea candidates in 2013 looking eerily identical because of suspected/confirmed plastic surgery.
A lot of regular Asians grow up skin-bleaching and straightening our hair to look fashionable. Hell, I think a lot of celebrities still do that and just don't admit it.
I'm Filipino-American and white people are the only ones constantly getting thrown off by my ethnicity because with I have wavy hair and tan skin, so they often think I'm Mexican, Hawai'ian, or some kind of Indigenous/Native-American.
Writingwithcolor on tumblr has extensive comments and guides about just this topic! They also answer a ton of questions about ethnicity and race in all kinds of contexts, including fantasy or science fiction
Not all asian people have the same eyes, they dont even all have mono lids. Some have wide eyes, some have large eyes, some have slanted, some have small, and some have double eyelids. Also, you can have almond eyes without them being slanted.
Honestly, as practice, watch a kdrama or japanese show and write a description of different characters you see. That would be a good way to learn how to write asian characters.
I don't think it's a good idea to watch kdramas or Japanese shows to get an idea of what Asian people look like because those are mostly East Asians and they're basically the supermodels of East Asia (not every Korean or Japanese person looks like them AND the aggressive beauty standards make them look too similar to people who haven't watched them before), so you'll only get a fraction of the variety that Asian people have.
I think it would be better to look out for store owners in whatever Asian country you're trying to represent to get a better idea of what the average person looks like or ask Asian artists for advice
Slanted can be iffy depending on context. Almond is purely descriptive. Rule of thumb is try to make a comparison to your own race, if it'd offend you then don't do it.
In Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson, the Shin are described as exotic and weird, with their round eyes and pale skin. Eventually every reader will realize they're just white people, and most of Roshar has epicanthic folds and Asian features. The reality is that Roshar is a bigoted and medieval world, so only people who are different from the norm are described as such.
The way to frame it depends on what kind of society you're dealing with. A white man travelling through China in the 1300s would be reasonably described as exotic and weird-looking, but you wouldn't expect that kind of thing from a United Earth Republic starship in the 2600s (the discrimination in that world would probably be more eugenicist or cybernetic focused IMO, not racial).
I loved realizing that, I was like "Szeth is light skinned, has big eyes... he's white!" I think at one point they're described as having big eyes that make them look childish which I thought was interesting. Also non-black hair is considered very unusual in most of Roshar.
I have a completely unsubstantiated and unresearched theory that Vin's people ended up settling Roshar in Shinovar (the ancestors of the Shin) thousands of years before the events of Stormlight Archive take place.
Everything is respectful if you are not succumbing to the trolls who make it disrespectful.
And nothing you do will save you from the "wrath" of those who perceive you as a tool for satisfying their political and psychological needs.
And here's thething - the world IS disrespectful. To make it realistic, you may explicitly mention how features are being abused for ridicule, for example.
Monobrows were considered divine. Fainting was cool. Being a brute with a square jaw was valued among Germanic tribes, but Hindu temples flaunt rounded, soft features. Soething something beholder.
I mean that actually might make the story more believable. Curly hair can be referred to in a sort of deregotory way as "ngo" in Thai culture. It comes from the word for Rambutan and culturally from the character เงาะป่า ("ngo pa" but oddly enough you dont get the black face stuff by searching in English). He's like a Thai version of zwarte piet. People using things they normally see as a way to describe unfamiliar things is almost expected.
Filipino-American and I've seen others point this out as well, but I'm just echoing that not every "Asian" has "East Asian eyes" (as in, the epicanthic folds that make your eyelid crease less visible).
"Slanted eyes" and any of its variants is a DEFINITE no in works that aren't about fifty years old. Last time I saw "slanted/slanting" eyes to describe non-Western eyes seriously was in Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness series (started publishing in 1984). It was very brief, and I tolerate it now because she's otherwise a very outspoken feminist who's willing to learn about her weak spots. I think writing as a whole stopped using "slanted eyes" around the 2010s.
"Almond eyes" is getting dated as well, partly because it's worn out and partly because it's got the unpleasant aspect of comparing POC's looks to food.
I find myself using "hooded eyes" to describe people with epicanthic folds, because that's a lot more neutral and gets across the idea of "someone has no eyelid crease" in ways that regular folks can understand easily. However, be careful with Google Search because for every harmless makeup tutorial explaining the differences between eye-shapes, you get about five more "Get rid of your ugly hooded eyes with surgery!" ads.
Hooded eyes are not the same as Asian eyes. I'm white and I have hooded eyes. Also surgery for hooded eyes can be a medical necessity, because they can impact vision with age. My grandma had surgery because of that.
The term almond eyes doesn't exclusively refer to Asian eyes either, but it's more likely to be read as such than hooded eyes.
It’s not ideal, but it’s a PASSABLE description that gets the idea across to layfolk as opposed to anthropologists/doctors, and it doesn’t have any issues with racism. So that’s what I offered to OP as an Asian writer myself.
Plus, non-Asians can also have “Asian-looking eyes.” Half the problem in this thread is Asians talking about how there is no singular “Asian appearance,” and OP needs to be careful about their unconscious biases.
If you want to describe skin, hairs, eyes, nose, ears, etc. Then do it to everyone with importance and not just...
> "This guy is black. That girl is white with red hair. That guy is black with blonde hair."
The first one isn't sound bad. After that it sounds bad. So do it consistently.
If I were to describe them in a way that I wrote in my web novel, it would be something like this...
> "The first guy has a dark skin, blackish even. His hair is also very dark, curvy, pompous. His eyes are brown with a tint of green... partial heterochromia? Maybe."
>"The girl is Mediterrenean White. A bit tan for the northerner, but still quite pale. Her hair is auburn red throughout. And that sharp, blu-ish eyes, it is beautiful."
>"The last guy is what you might call dark brown. But the hair is of a golden blonde. The constrast is interesting. And the brown eyes that elude the light is also quite a beautiful things."
Do it consistently and descriptively in accordance to the viewpoint, and it feels more natural. In my opinion at least.
Use anatomically descriptive terms like "monolods" and "epicanthic folds". Avoid food terminology, slurs, and things like "slanty" that make it obvious you've never thought about this or been the only white person in a room.
Unfortunately, we have had to remove your submission in /r/worldbuilding because it violated one of our rules. In particular:
This is not a writers' community. Although you are allowed to post narrative writing here, that writing must be specifically connected to your worldbuilding: for example, a story or a snippet of a larger story that specifically shows an element of your world's politics, history, cultures, etc. You should include context, which discusses the worldbuilding elements you want to focus on.
Questions and problems should have enough detail and context. The person reading your post should be able to understand the basics of your worldbuilding project, the question being asked and how it fits into that project, and what research/work/ideas you already have towards solving that problem.
Please respect the community's time and efforts to help you: as much as possible, you should try to work out problems on your own before asking the subreddit for help, and present the ideas or research you have so far.
Just lean into it, describe the people as you would describe them of course. You can say all kinds of things to hint ethnicity from skin color to features. Don't describe them like a racist cartoon unless you're trying to be funny or something
Do not describe her hair as kinky. When the writer is black, it’s no big deal, but coming from somebody who isnt can be read as offensive. You’ll need to learn how to describe various hair types (if that’s what you wish to include). Type 4 hair can be thick, coarse, and curly. Lurk on forums where people describe themselves and learn the words they use.
Describe your characters accurately how you picture them and don't worry about what people think. Create the most descriptive thing you can, there is no benefit in censoring yourself to appease people.
Don't bother. Describe them how you think they ought to be described. I mean if you're not describing something like an actual minstrel show character, if some jackass is going to read in disrespect where there is none to be found, they were always going to do that. Just make an honest effort to be descriptive.
I bookmarked this so I could come back and drop a really great resource I found specifically for describing different kinds of eyes. The thing is not all East Asians have mongoloids or upturned eyes but there's plenty of terms that will help the visual. I use this: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1597780432526925824.html
As from afro/coily/type 4 hair, again there are different kinds. Tightly coiled is a good one, but you can also describe how it grows - out/up instead of down. Type 4 hair is often fine, sometimes dense, but not necessarily thick. I have type 4a/4b tightly coiled dense hair, but fine stands. I can have an afro, cornrows, braids, locs (NOT dreadlocks), twists etc. it's probably better to describe the style than the texture.
If your setting is diverse, keep in mind what you might subconsciously consider the default. If you only ever point out the shape of east Asian character eyes, then its kinda weird. If many different characters get eye shape descriptions, it wont stand out.
Some people have a Generic Western Character image in their head and tend to only point out when a character strays from that image, which paints them as other. If you dont do this, I think you'll be ok.
Once you've got character descriptions to work with, you could try running them past beta/sensitivity readers.
Seconding this. The Baru Cormorant series is great at this, it’s a world of mostly brown and black people, and so whenever a white person shows up the protag always points it out in her descriptions. My favorite is when a character refers to a white person as having skin like a chicken sausage
So long as you’re not exaggerating things then everyone who complains is just doing it to complain.
You can’t control what people visualize perfectly anyway so it really doesn’t matter.
Yeah, as long as you dony drop shit like "The chinaman" you're probsbly good
Why is "The chinamen" offensive? I remember hearing people using phrases like the Englishmen or Frenchmen sometimes but generally not in a offensive context
(I'm Chinese myself)
Ok so:
To stsrt with, theres context. For stuff like "Tue Englishman", it was used to describe a persom from england. "The Chinaman" however was a derogatory term, and was used as a catch all for anyone from asia that wasnt from India. You know that King of the Hill scene where the Laotian man is repeatrdly confused for being chinese? Its like that, but rathwe than someome innocently not understanding Asian geography its more like a "I cant be bothered to figure out who any of you are, so I'm just going to call you all a slur."
Hell, in america they would Literally write Chinaman into a census if they didnt know your last name, regardless of if you actually were from China, though admitedly that doesnt seem to have been purely out of malice. This one Chinese-American historuan said its use on the census was sort of like a "John Doe" title.
Barring these specific uses, its just been used as a rude term. If you heard someone say it in the past, dont be surprised if its followed up bt the most racist shit you've heard (like a jumprope song about cutting off a Xue, that ponytail-esque hairstyle). In the early 1800's it was perfectly normal though, hell, some people would even refer to themselves as it before its more racist uses caught on.
TLDR: You'd be riggt to think it isnt bad, for a bit it WASN'T, but more or less every use of it has been at best plagued with racial overtones or at worst straight up erasive of smaller asian nationalities
I see, so the problem is with everyone from Asia being called Chinamen? seems to get it now
Yes. You had a naive, though entirely reasonable, outlook on it. I only know this because my grandpa one time went on a little tirade and used it, so I looked some stuff up
If the person is actually English or French who cares.
The problem is racists use it to refer to anyone from East Asia and sometimes basically just anyone from Asia who wasn’t from India.
It is part of the ‘Asians all look the same’ racism pretty much.
Fair enough, basically a generalization problem. Seems to get it now
Is your setting kind of alternate earth/adjacent/historical where refering to Easterners or those weilding recognisably eastern weapons or attire without too much elaboration still makes cannonical sense?
Otherwise, I've found poetic license can be exercised, because descriptions are just that, and not by making comparisons to unjustifiably derogatory references
[deleted]
As a tangent to the Asian eye-shape conversation: Chinese people are not all pale, and Asians CAN have naturally wavy and curly hair. Your Chinese guy would easily blend in with the locals, especially if he's NOT of a wealthier class who specifically cultivates the "pale skin and straight black hair" look.
In modern times, the "wealthier class" who drives fashion ideals would be celebrities and performers. So watching K-pop and other TV shows like the other person mentioned may not help THAT MUCH, because the people who make it in Asian show-business are the ones with pale skin and straight black hair. Also, last I checked, even Koreans were joking/upset about all their Miss Korea candidates in 2013 looking eerily identical because of suspected/confirmed plastic surgery.
A lot of regular Asians grow up skin-bleaching and straightening our hair to look fashionable. Hell, I think a lot of celebrities still do that and just don't admit it.
I'm Filipino-American and white people are the only ones constantly getting thrown off by my ethnicity because with I have wavy hair and tan skin, so they often think I'm Mexican, Hawai'ian, or some kind of Indigenous/Native-American.
I have family that's the opposite. very Caucasian, with a tiny bit of Cherokee, but he's mistaken as Filipino-American sometimes.
Worth noting, Arabic is the language, Arab is the people.
Uhhh can i get the story name? If you are publishing already?
Check out Writing with Color. They have a lot of information about this and further resources.
Writingwithcolor on tumblr has extensive comments and guides about just this topic! They also answer a ton of questions about ethnicity and race in all kinds of contexts, including fantasy or science fiction
Not all asian people have the same eyes, they dont even all have mono lids. Some have wide eyes, some have large eyes, some have slanted, some have small, and some have double eyelids. Also, you can have almond eyes without them being slanted.
Honestly, as practice, watch a kdrama or japanese show and write a description of different characters you see. That would be a good way to learn how to write asian characters.
I don't think it's a good idea to watch kdramas or Japanese shows to get an idea of what Asian people look like because those are mostly East Asians and they're basically the supermodels of East Asia (not every Korean or Japanese person looks like them AND the aggressive beauty standards make them look too similar to people who haven't watched them before), so you'll only get a fraction of the variety that Asian people have.
I think it would be better to look out for store owners in whatever Asian country you're trying to represent to get a better idea of what the average person looks like or ask Asian artists for advice
To be honest, East Asians with monolids seem to be in the minority where I'm from.
Slanted can be iffy depending on context. Almond is purely descriptive. Rule of thumb is try to make a comparison to your own race, if it'd offend you then don't do it.
”He had a prominent brow ridge, narrow nose and horizontal, oval-shaped eyes…”
Anna had warm, slanted brown eyes that always had a cheeky twinkle.
James has cold blue eyes that were mismatched with his friendly smile.
Susan wore her thick jet black hair in a heavy braid one one shoulder, and had striking cheekbones under smooth brown skin.
In Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson, the Shin are described as exotic and weird, with their round eyes and pale skin. Eventually every reader will realize they're just white people, and most of Roshar has epicanthic folds and Asian features. The reality is that Roshar is a bigoted and medieval world, so only people who are different from the norm are described as such.
The way to frame it depends on what kind of society you're dealing with. A white man travelling through China in the 1300s would be reasonably described as exotic and weird-looking, but you wouldn't expect that kind of thing from a United Earth Republic starship in the 2600s (the discrimination in that world would probably be more eugenicist or cybernetic focused IMO, not racial).
I loved realizing that, I was like "Szeth is light skinned, has big eyes... he's white!" I think at one point they're described as having big eyes that make them look childish which I thought was interesting. Also non-black hair is considered very unusual in most of Roshar.
I have a completely unsubstantiated and unresearched theory that Vin's people ended up settling Roshar in Shinovar (the ancestors of the Shin) thousands of years before the events of Stormlight Archive take place.
Everything is respectful if you are not succumbing to the trolls who make it disrespectful.
And nothing you do will save you from the "wrath" of those who perceive you as a tool for satisfying their political and psychological needs.
And here's thething - the world IS disrespectful. To make it realistic, you may explicitly mention how features are being abused for ridicule, for example.
Monobrows were considered divine. Fainting was cool. Being a brute with a square jaw was valued among Germanic tribes, but Hindu temples flaunt rounded, soft features. Soething something beholder.
If you’re not from the culture, don’t use food words to describe skin or other body parts. It’s fetishizing.
See now I'm just imagining food words for white people
"Her skin was a luscious shade of tagliatelle"
"He was as pale as a weißwurst that hadn't quite hit the grill yet"
"She was like coffee but if it had a lot of creamer in it, because she was white."
Milky or creamy is the typical food description for white skin.
I mean that actually might make the story more believable. Curly hair can be referred to in a sort of deregotory way as "ngo" in Thai culture. It comes from the word for Rambutan and culturally from the character เงาะป่า ("ngo pa" but oddly enough you dont get the black face stuff by searching in English). He's like a Thai version of zwarte piet. People using things they normally see as a way to describe unfamiliar things is almost expected.
Filipino-American and I've seen others point this out as well, but I'm just echoing that not every "Asian" has "East Asian eyes" (as in, the epicanthic folds that make your eyelid crease less visible).
"Slanted eyes" and any of its variants is a DEFINITE no in works that aren't about fifty years old. Last time I saw "slanted/slanting" eyes to describe non-Western eyes seriously was in Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness series (started publishing in 1984). It was very brief, and I tolerate it now because she's otherwise a very outspoken feminist who's willing to learn about her weak spots. I think writing as a whole stopped using "slanted eyes" around the 2010s.
"Almond eyes" is getting dated as well, partly because it's worn out and partly because it's got the unpleasant aspect of comparing POC's looks to food.
I find myself using "hooded eyes" to describe people with epicanthic folds, because that's a lot more neutral and gets across the idea of "someone has no eyelid crease" in ways that regular folks can understand easily. However, be careful with Google Search because for every harmless makeup tutorial explaining the differences between eye-shapes, you get about five more "Get rid of your ugly hooded eyes with surgery!" ads.
Hooded eyes are not the same as Asian eyes. I'm white and I have hooded eyes. Also surgery for hooded eyes can be a medical necessity, because they can impact vision with age. My grandma had surgery because of that.
The term almond eyes doesn't exclusively refer to Asian eyes either, but it's more likely to be read as such than hooded eyes.
It’s not ideal, but it’s a PASSABLE description that gets the idea across to layfolk as opposed to anthropologists/doctors, and it doesn’t have any issues with racism. So that’s what I offered to OP as an Asian writer myself.
Plus, non-Asians can also have “Asian-looking eyes.” Half the problem in this thread is Asians talking about how there is no singular “Asian appearance,” and OP needs to be careful about their unconscious biases.
Is it racist to describe objective traits?
Consistency.
If you want to describe skin, hairs, eyes, nose, ears, etc. Then do it to everyone with importance and not just...
> "This guy is black. That girl is white with red hair. That guy is black with blonde hair."
The first one isn't sound bad. After that it sounds bad. So do it consistently.
If I were to describe them in a way that I wrote in my web novel, it would be something like this...
> "The first guy has a dark skin, blackish even. His hair is also very dark, curvy, pompous. His eyes are brown with a tint of green... partial heterochromia? Maybe."
>"The girl is Mediterrenean White. A bit tan for the northerner, but still quite pale. Her hair is auburn red throughout. And that sharp, blu-ish eyes, it is beautiful."
>"The last guy is what you might call dark brown. But the hair is of a golden blonde. The constrast is interesting. And the brown eyes that elude the light is also quite a beautiful things."
Do it consistently and descriptively in accordance to the viewpoint, and it feels more natural. In my opinion at least.
Obviously you compare their features to food. Actually, don't do that. It feels really weird.
Use anatomically descriptive terms like "monolods" and "epicanthic folds". Avoid food terminology, slurs, and things like "slanty" that make it obvious you've never thought about this or been the only white person in a room.
Hi, /u/Yimore,
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Just lean into it, describe the people as you would describe them of course. You can say all kinds of things to hint ethnicity from skin color to features. Don't describe them like a racist cartoon unless you're trying to be funny or something
Listen, no matter why u say or do. People are gonna cry racism or something.
Describe them the best u can and don't worry about how it comes off.
Just don't make them off a real life stereotype
Do not describe her hair as kinky. When the writer is black, it’s no big deal, but coming from somebody who isnt can be read as offensive. You’ll need to learn how to describe various hair types (if that’s what you wish to include). Type 4 hair can be thick, coarse, and curly. Lurk on forums where people describe themselves and learn the words they use.
Describe your characters accurately how you picture them and don't worry about what people think. Create the most descriptive thing you can, there is no benefit in censoring yourself to appease people.
Don't bother. Describe them how you think they ought to be described. I mean if you're not describing something like an actual minstrel show character, if some jackass is going to read in disrespect where there is none to be found, they were always going to do that. Just make an honest effort to be descriptive.
I bookmarked this so I could come back and drop a really great resource I found specifically for describing different kinds of eyes. The thing is not all East Asians have mongoloids or upturned eyes but there's plenty of terms that will help the visual. I use this: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1597780432526925824.html
As from afro/coily/type 4 hair, again there are different kinds. Tightly coiled is a good one, but you can also describe how it grows - out/up instead of down. Type 4 hair is often fine, sometimes dense, but not necessarily thick. I have type 4a/4b tightly coiled dense hair, but fine stands. I can have an afro, cornrows, braids, locs (NOT dreadlocks), twists etc. it's probably better to describe the style than the texture.
Hope this helps!!
Go Star Trek and make them blue or have a weird nose wrinkle.