By that point everyone was sick of war. The british and french while promising a newly independent armenian state did nothing since they knew they could do nothing against the ussr invasion. They also lost against the turks and the kurds so they realy could do nothing for the armenians.
The turks meanwhile created a newly government based on the atheist french government under ataturk. Just like how france did a cultural genocide of there minority language under its athesit regime the turks also did something similar following the french atheist government.
By that point british were desperate to find any ally that could be used against the ussr. Turkey was that role. British just like any other kind of government choosed to throw away the weaker power for its benefit. They did this with Poland during the congress of Vienna, Morocco after there alliance with france and Korea after there alliance with japan.
Honestly the biggest lesson is countries will only move for there benefits.
You could sort virtually any act of vigilantism into one of three categories:
Indefensible: The overwhelming majority of lynchings in the United States, child molesters being murdered in retaliation for their crimes inside or outside of prison by anyone without direct ties to their victim(s), and Rudolph Tyner
The photo of surrendered AWB colonel Alwyn Wolfaardt begging for his life before being summarily executed by a black police officer during the Bophuthatswana crisis is well-known. Less known is that Wolfaardt and other Neo-Nazis had just massacred dozens of black people in broad daylight. The police officer executed Wolfaardt and another AWB member in a fit of rage.
This act indirectly saved lives since it scared many militant white supremacists into laying down their arms.
The Laura Rogers case happened in my county; I remember reading about her release in The Washington Post. Gary Plauche did one thing most parents would think about doing, but he actually did it.
In my view, what Laura Rogers did was justified since there's no telling what else her husband might've done to her daughter in the time it'd take to turn in the videotape and for the police to arrest him. Her options were to either put the life of her daughter at risk or strike first. I'd call it preemptive self-defense.
There is zero evidence of Sholem Schwarzbard being an NKVD agent beyond the extremely untrustworthy word of KGB defector Peter Deriabin.
Schwarzbard's remarks towards Symon Petliura immediately before killing him, along with his association with anarchists, whom the Soviet Union was hostile towards, indicate that he acted alone and was driven by a desire for revenge.
The idea that Schwarzbard was an NKVD agent is a conspiracy theory that was propped up by Petliura apologists to divert attention from the fact that he was a mass murderer who allowed his troops to slaughter tens of thousands of Jewish civilians during the Russian Civil War.
Dude, I studied at Rutgers for a few years so I've met my share of Zionist Tankies. I don't really want to hear your point of view on any issue.
I'm only curious to know if you're currently dodging both the IDF and Russian Armed Forces or just one of them? And are you based in the States, Cyprus, or Dubai?
- Useful idiots for Hitler that were shocked when their Austrian bff turned on them.
- Both hated Poles and Jews very much and killed many of them.
- Both offered nothing in terms of ideology and national thought and simply were angry gangsters that turned to murder to achieve their goals.
- Both are today worshipped by the braindead sections of Ukraine/Russia.
If not Zionist Tankie then I can't think of a better way to call someone with your views. Perhaps Bundist Extremist would fit the bill but most of the Bund was anti-Zionist and Bundist sounds weird.
Glad to know you aren't a Nazi apologist, but Symon Petliura was also a mass murderer and there is still no credible evidence that his killer, Sholem Schwarzbard, was an NKVD agent. Plenty of evidence to the contrary, in fact.
Going back to your previous question, I also think that Bandera was an NKVD agent but I simply lack the evidence to prove it. His war time activities were suspicious and he didn't once bother to organize a legitimate resistance against the Red Army.
But who knows. I thought Zelenskyy was an FSB agent before February 2022 so perhaps I simply give too much credit to Russian secret service and their ability to operate abroad.
There is zero evidence to suggest that Petliura ordered or instigated antisemitic violence intentionally. He failed to stop forces nominally allied with him from doing them, but he didn't have the actual ability to do so. UPR military was very disorganized.
As commander in chief, the mere fact that Petliura failed to stop the pogroms makes him guilty. He made no genuine effort to reign in his troops. His shallow condemnations were just lip service intended to curb international outrage. There is no evidence of UPR troops ever once being punished for committing atrocities.
UPR troops massacred roughly 50,000 Jews, far more than any other faction during the Russian Civil War.
The evidence against Petliura was so damning that it convinced a jury in France, one of the most antisemitic countries in Europe at the time, to not only acquit him, but openly celebrate him as a heroic avenger of his people.
I’m actually reading a book right now called “In the Midst of Civilized Europe” about the early 20th century pogroms in Ukraine. What Petlyura’s army did to the Jews was horrific.
Of the three pashas who led the young Turk government Talaat and djemal were both assassinated as part of nemesis and enver, after travelling to Central Asia for the sake of fighting the Soviets and establishing turanism, was supposedly killed in battle by an Armenian cavalry officer in the red army.
Nakam (Hebrew: נקם, 'revenge') was a paramilitary and terrorist organisation of about fifty Holocaust survivors who, after 1945, sought revenge for the murder of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust. Led by Abba Kovner, the group sought to kill six million Germans in a form of indiscriminate revenge, "a nation for a nation".
Well, there’s a pretty big difference between targeting those directly responsible for a genocide and seeking to kill a significant percentage of a country’s population on the basis of collective guilt, I think.
I'm just saying that the idea of seeking out revenge after dealing with a genocide of your people on those you believe are responsible reminded me of the Nakam.
One another sad thing is after the Armenian genocide the armenians who were in central asia began to attack the Uzbek Turkish civilians as revenge. They created the Armenian Dashnak group would go around village slaughtering up to 10,000 Uzbek civilians. When the basmachi rebellion happend and enver pasha joined the rebellion of the basmachi movement the entire thing got much more messy.
Funny thing is most Uzbek doesnt know about this history and doesnt care.
Dashnaktsutyun(Dashnaks, also called ARF in english) wasn't created in Uzbekistan, it was established in Georgia in 1890, it was one of the early armenian political parties, along with the Hunchaks and Armenakans. Though these parties were mainly active in the Ottoman empire, Dashnaks and Hunchaks did have international reach among the armenians of the world. These parties actually worked together with the young turks party to topple the Sultan
Is there anywhere trustworthy I can read about these events? When I try to google about ARF activities in central asia, all the websites that show up end with .tr or .az
And actually, nothing shows up when I search for ARF, it only brings up related results when I search with the term 'dashnak', which is even more suspect
I highly recommend giving a listen to a history podcast titled: 'Lions led by Donkeys'
The creator is a historian and the podcast covers various disasters/conflicts throughout human history.
They have a very expansive 4 part series that spans the Armenian genocide and thoroughly delves into the the history leading up to, during, and post genocide.
Good. Should’ve had Nuremberg type trials for this too
Istanbul trials of 1919–1920
It looks like they were released or a lot of them were
Only the Entente's Ottoman puppet government was willing to prosecute Ottoman war criminals. Three people were hanged between 1919 and 1920.
By that point everyone was sick of war. The british and french while promising a newly independent armenian state did nothing since they knew they could do nothing against the ussr invasion. They also lost against the turks and the kurds so they realy could do nothing for the armenians.
The turks meanwhile created a newly government based on the atheist french government under ataturk. Just like how france did a cultural genocide of there minority language under its athesit regime the turks also did something similar following the french atheist government.
The British had considered prosecuting the Ottoman war criminals in their custody on Malta, but were blackmailed into releasing them by Ataturk.
By that point british were desperate to find any ally that could be used against the ussr. Turkey was that role. British just like any other kind of government choosed to throw away the weaker power for its benefit. They did this with Poland during the congress of Vienna, Morocco after there alliance with france and Korea after there alliance with japan. Honestly the biggest lesson is countries will only move for there benefits.
Makes sense. It’s unfortunate but there really wasn’t anyway to force them
You could sort virtually any act of vigilantism into one of three categories:
The photo of surrendered AWB colonel Alwyn Wolfaardt begging for his life before being summarily executed by a black police officer during the Bophuthatswana crisis is well-known. Less known is that Wolfaardt and other Neo-Nazis had just massacred dozens of black people in broad daylight. The police officer executed Wolfaardt and another AWB member in a fit of rage.
This act indirectly saved lives since it scared many militant white supremacists into laying down their arms.
The Laura Rogers case happened in my county; I remember reading about her release in The Washington Post. Gary Plauche did one thing most parents would think about doing, but he actually did it.
In my view, what Laura Rogers did was justified since there's no telling what else her husband might've done to her daughter in the time it'd take to turn in the videotape and for the police to arrest him. Her options were to either put the life of her daughter at risk or strike first. I'd call it preemptive self-defense.
Same goes for Angelina Napolitano.
I think so as well. Wherever she is now, I hope she and her kids are doing well and are happy.
The assassination of Symon Petliura was an NKVD operation. I don't see how it fits the category of revenge.
There is zero evidence of Sholem Schwarzbard being an NKVD agent beyond the extremely untrustworthy word of KGB defector Peter Deriabin.
Schwarzbard's remarks towards Symon Petliura immediately before killing him, along with his association with anarchists, whom the Soviet Union was hostile towards, indicate that he acted alone and was driven by a desire for revenge.
The idea that Schwarzbard was an NKVD agent is a conspiracy theory that was propped up by Petliura apologists to divert attention from the fact that he was a mass murderer who allowed his troops to slaughter tens of thousands of Jewish civilians during the Russian Civil War.
Dude, I studied at Rutgers for a few years so I've met my share of Zionist Tankies. I don't really want to hear your point of view on any issue.
I'm only curious to know if you're currently dodging both the IDF and Russian Armed Forces or just one of them? And are you based in the States, Cyprus, or Dubai?
>Has a racist and antisemitic kneejerk reaction to genocidal maniac Symon Petliura being called a mass murderer
>Uses the term "Zionist Tankies" unironically
>Opinion immediately discarded.
If you don't mind, could you state your thoughts on Stepan Bandera?
Bandera was basically Ukrainian Stalin.
- Useful idiots for Hitler that were shocked when their Austrian bff turned on them.
- Both hated Poles and Jews very much and killed many of them.
- Both offered nothing in terms of ideology and national thought and simply were angry gangsters that turned to murder to achieve their goals.
- Both are today worshipped by the braindead sections of Ukraine/Russia.
If not Zionist Tankie then I can't think of a better way to call someone with your views. Perhaps Bundist Extremist would fit the bill but most of the Bund was anti-Zionist and Bundist sounds weird.
Glad to know you aren't a Nazi apologist, but Symon Petliura was also a mass murderer and there is still no credible evidence that his killer, Sholem Schwarzbard, was an NKVD agent. Plenty of evidence to the contrary, in fact.
Going back to your previous question, I also think that Bandera was an NKVD agent but I simply lack the evidence to prove it. His war time activities were suspicious and he didn't once bother to organize a legitimate resistance against the Red Army.
But who knows. I thought Zelenskyy was an FSB agent before February 2022 so perhaps I simply give too much credit to Russian secret service and their ability to operate abroad.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
thanks for the chuckle, great way to end a convo lol
There is zero evidence to suggest that Petliura ordered or instigated antisemitic violence intentionally. He failed to stop forces nominally allied with him from doing them, but he didn't have the actual ability to do so. UPR military was very disorganized.
It doesn't matter.
As commander in chief, the mere fact that Petliura failed to stop the pogroms makes him guilty. He made no genuine effort to reign in his troops. His shallow condemnations were just lip service intended to curb international outrage. There is no evidence of UPR troops ever once being punished for committing atrocities.
UPR troops massacred roughly 50,000 Jews, far more than any other faction during the Russian Civil War.
The evidence against Petliura was so damning that it convinced a jury in France, one of the most antisemitic countries in Europe at the time, to not only acquit him, but openly celebrate him as a heroic avenger of his people.
I’m actually reading a book right now called “In the Midst of Civilized Europe” about the early 20th century pogroms in Ukraine. What Petlyura’s army did to the Jews was horrific.
Would you consider Operation Nakam indefensible IF it was executed?
Yes.
based
This was heroic.
Of the three pashas who led the young Turk government Talaat and djemal were both assassinated as part of nemesis and enver, after travelling to Central Asia for the sake of fighting the Soviets and establishing turanism, was supposedly killed in battle by an Armenian cavalry officer in the red army.
The nazi party exhumed his body at Turkey's request in the 1940s. He ia buried in Istanbul and there were ceremonies in his honor until 2013.
Operation Nemesis is such a dope name
Do you know what nemesis means, Turkish?
Super based
Reminds me of the Nakam
Well, there’s a pretty big difference between targeting those directly responsible for a genocide and seeking to kill a significant percentage of a country’s population on the basis of collective guilt, I think.
Never said there wasn't a big difference.
I'm just saying that the idea of seeking out revenge after dealing with a genocide of your people on those you believe are responsible reminded me of the Nakam.
One another sad thing is after the Armenian genocide the armenians who were in central asia began to attack the Uzbek Turkish civilians as revenge. They created the Armenian Dashnak group would go around village slaughtering up to 10,000 Uzbek civilians. When the basmachi rebellion happend and enver pasha joined the rebellion of the basmachi movement the entire thing got much more messy. Funny thing is most Uzbek doesnt know about this history and doesnt care.
Legendary thousands of millions Turks killed by evil Armenians
Dashnaktsutyun(Dashnaks, also called ARF in english) wasn't created in Uzbekistan, it was established in Georgia in 1890, it was one of the early armenian political parties, along with the Hunchaks and Armenakans. Though these parties were mainly active in the Ottoman empire, Dashnaks and Hunchaks did have international reach among the armenians of the world. These parties actually worked together with the young turks party to topple the Sultan
Is there anywhere trustworthy I can read about these events? When I try to google about ARF activities in central asia, all the websites that show up end with .tr or .az
And actually, nothing shows up when I search for ARF, it only brings up related results when I search with the term 'dashnak', which is even more suspect
Tashnags are Turkey and Russia's favorite scape goats for everything.
I highly recommend giving a listen to a history podcast titled: 'Lions led by Donkeys' The creator is a historian and the podcast covers various disasters/conflicts throughout human history.
They have a very expansive 4 part series that spans the Armenian genocide and thoroughly delves into the the history leading up to, during, and post genocide.
All the papers are on uzbk so...
An Uzbek or Russian source would be nice too. I can use a translator if it's uzbek
> Funny thing is most Uzbek doesnt know about this history and doesnt care.
yeah probably because its made up