I have a brother in law who was recently accepted to dental school. I am worried that he may be making a financial decision that will cause him long term consequences and wanted to hear other people's thoughts.
He has no debt from undergrad. He is single. He has family in town that he can live with to save on rent.
Dental School Tuition each year: $110,000
Living expenses (food/gas/etc, NOT rent or utilities): $15,000
With new student loan reform, he can take 50k/year at a probably 8% rate?
He will have to take the rest out in private loans 70k/year at a probably 10% rate?
By the end of dental school, he will have around 230k with federal (given interest accumulation) and $300k+ in private loans. Say he could refinance the combined $530k at a maybe 5% rate.
Refinanced over 20 years at 5% rate is $3500/month. Over 10 years at 5% is $5600.
PSLF isnt really an option because you are going to take a pay cut/quality of life hit for only half your loans. Military isn't an option. He is looking into NHSC, but that will likely be competitive this year because of new loan rules.
Just curious to hear other people's thoughts. I'm inclined to say nothing except make sure he runs the numbers and understands what it will likely cost to pay off as I'm not really sure I'm in the right position to say anything else.
EDIT: Thanks for all the responses! I appreciate the opinions and perspectives.
I wouldn’t get involved. If he’s an unemployed software engineer you’ll be the one to blame.
Very true. That was my gut instinct. Thanks for your perspective.
How is he your brother in law if he’s single?
Oh brother- really?
Hahahahahahahahaha
You see, if OP married a girl, and she had a brother…
Really think about what you just said.
D’oh!
You serious, Clark?
Cuz you see, he is in a coexist relationship with his brother in law
Got to make sure you warn him against it so he can't whine to you about his debt load in the future without a big, fat 'I told you so'
Correct answer.
Seems morally a bit lazy. We shouldn't help family because of a small hypothetical risk of being blamed. Seems selfish.
You've expressed some love and concern for your BIL by making this post. See it through.
100% this
Smart
Big debt can lead to big rewards, if you go into debt for the right degree. $200K for a sociology degree from a no name private school? Stupid debt. $500K for an MD/DO/DDS/DMD/DPM degree? Usually makes sense.
FWIW, I'm an MD, family medicine. $550K student loan debt upon graduating residency 7 years ago (equivalent to $700K in today's dollars). I now owe about $200K, and have a net worth over $2 mil. I could write a check today to pay the rest off, but I'm prioritizing keeping money in the market, while still making significant progress towards student loans.
I'm glad I took on the heavy student debt burden for this lucrative degree.
Sheesh, how much are you making as FM to have NW over $2M after 7 years? Lucky investments, index funds, crypto?
It's not about how much you make, it's about how much you invest. At one point, I was investing over 50% of my gross income. I'm now down to a more reasonable 30% of my gross income going to investments.
No lucky investments. Mostly low cost index funds. The markets have produced outsized gains during this time period.
Total household income is about $550K.
So you make close to double the average FM doc cause of household income. I wouldn't be using your situation as an example of how easy it is to pay off unless you add the caveat of 'I married someone with physician like income who had no debt.'
You don't have to use me as an example. However, I'll use myself as an example. ;)
Using yourself as an example without providing the context is disingenuous at best. Your initial comment made it sound like you achieved your net worth and loan payment solely off your income and investments alone.
The amount of butthurt here is astounding. Jealousy breeds contempt.
Is a jealousy in the room with us now? I'm a resident, could care less what you make. You're portraying a false example by not giving the full details lmfao. Clearly you didn't do this off your own financial acumen, yet you want us to believe it is that way.
Disingenuous at best.
I'm honestly dumbfounded at your reply. My wife and I started with nothing but student loan debt. We built everything we have together without outside financial help. When we discuss finances, we don't discuss our individual incomes. We discuss our income. We operate as a team. There is nothing disingenuous about my post. Most of the docs I work with are married with working spouses. There is nothing odd about having a working spouse. I am the primary breadwinner, earning $450K, though her contribution is not insignificant at $100K. We don't look at it this way, though. We look at it as our income is $550K (as does the IRS).
This is an honest question, would it have made you feel better about my post if I would have included that I am married with a working spouse in my original comment here? Maybe we are looking at things from different worldviews? Help me understand.
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It is partially about how much money you make I loathe people that speak in absolutes. If I save 20% of a million a year I’m saving 200k which I would have to save 200% of a 100k salary to get to. Math doesn’t really work out there. The truth is making a lot and saving a lot go hand and hand.
You know, I started several responses and deleted them. When you tell someone you loathe them, for whatever reason, do you really expect a decent response back from them?
I don't want a decent response back, I'm pointing out to any other thread readers that your comment is non-sense. The substance of my comment is exactly what I wanted to get across.
Blocked.
Yeah, that math totally doesn’t work. Investing 50% of gross income — you don’t pay taxes or have living expenses, or interest on your loans? Family practice doctor makes what 200-300k? Total household income includes someone else’s high income. Market is up like 15% per year not some crazy outsized amount.
Of course total household income includes someone else's income. That's why I specified total household income, not individual. I make $450K. My wife makes $100K.
The math does add up. We live frugally. Of course we have living expenses, taxes. etc.
I don't actually know that the market has averaged 15% annually over this time period, but I'll take your word for it. Try putting my rough provided figures into an investment calculator with 15% interest, and see what it spits out. Couple that with appreciation of my home and my rental property, and the math checks out.
lol, add in my wife’s money, my home appreciation, and rental income - certainly didn’t buy a rental home on that income without help. You got caught way exaggerating, there’s no way you go from 0 to 2 mm in 7 years time out of medical school on that salary - which probably wasn’t that high to begin with, and tell everybody it’s fantastic financial move. Sounds like there is some family money in there as well
I went from 0 to 1.5 in 5 years so yes it’s doable. And the VOO is up 83 % in last 5 years. Apple up 105%. Those are my primary investments.
Way t miss the entire point. I’m fully aware market has gone up around 15% per year
I'm self made and very transparent about it. Nobody helped buy our rental property. By the way, our rental property does not provide any income. It is cash flow neutral. Our goal here is capital appreciation, and as a house for my mother in the future, as she rents and is not well off financially. Being able to take care of her in the future is important to us. There is no family money, at least none that has been passed onto us. Both my wife and I took out student loans for schooling. We bought our rental property with 25% down with good credit, and have a mortgage on it.
And of course I would add in my wife's income. We're a team.
The only thing I didn't mention is that I did get some student loan reimbursement from my employer and the Army National Guard. All of this adds up into our financial picture.
I'm honestly not understanding what is so hard to believe about this? We live well below our means and save aggressively.
What would I have to gain with exaggerating on here? It's completely anonymous.
You are exaggerating how easy to get to 2mm in 7 years, I don’t doubt you have net worth you say. The average family practice physician in California- where I assume it’s on the higher side is 250k, and you make 450k. Great for you, but hardly typical, and saving 50% of gross income virtually impossible unless you are living in squalor. lol, nobody is jealous, certainly not me, these would be inconsequential amounts in my life. So to summarize, in reading all your other posts - you work overtime, spend weekends on army national guard, live in a rural area, and are extremely frugal. Dude, that sounds absolutely horrible
I'm not exaggerating anything. It wasn't easy. If it was easy, everybody would do it. However, it also wasn't overly difficult. It just takes discipline.
You assume wrong about California being on the higher side of physician salaries. It isn't. Based on cost of living, it should be, but isn't. I make more than most of my peers in my area. But not much more. I would assume I'm within one standard deviation of the mean in my area.
I live in a LCOL area. As a household, we literally make more than 98% of those around us. Saving 50% did not require living in squalor. We don't save that much currently though. We live well, but not lavishly.
I do work overtime, but will give that up in a few years probably, and truly don't work a ton of overtime. I work one weekend a month at drills, not every weekend. I LOVE living in a rural area. I hate living in the city. I've done it, and it's just not for me. I'm fairly frugal, but far from extremely so. We have fun toys, eat out, and vacation. But we don't waste money on the little things.
Your mental picture of my life might sound horrible to you, but I love my life. I wouldn't trade it for anything. You have to build the life you want to live, not the life you think others would want to live.
Don't let residency beat you down, life gets WAY better as an attending. Good luck in your future endeavors, and God bless.
I’m a retired finance guy. I just started reading because of the headline. The average family practitioner makes 220-280k in the US. Why would you make 450k in low cost of living rural area?
I’m sorry but I don’t understand some of you people. My yearly core expenses is less than 20% of my income and I live in SoCal. What y’all consider squalor is insane.
That’s awesome! Thanks for sharing. Can I ask how you got to $450k in FM?
I work hard and live in a rural area. I work overtime and am in the Army National Guard.
Docs can make $500k a year easy
They cannot; am psych.
Not FM. Half of that 500k would have to be from realized gains
I make about $450K as FM. My wife makes $100K as a college professor. I never count gains, realized or unrealized, as income.
Downvote all you want but that’s absolutely not the norm In 2024, physicians earned an average of $374,000, a 2.9% increase over the previous year. Primary care physicians (PCPs) earned $287,000, up slightly from $277,000 in 2023 and $265,000 in 2022. Sure, rural FM can clear 0.5M. But the numbers don’t lie
You confidently, and incorrectly, stated "not FM." You then went on to state that half of a $500K salary would HAVE to come from realized gains. When you speak in absolutes, you nearly guarantee you'll be wrong.
You know, the thing about an average income, is that it is a statistical measure, not a set of income handcuffs. You know that roughly half of a study population will make more than the average, not withstanding outliers that may skew it, right?
“Docs can make 500k a year easy” and you’re arguing that your statistical outlier, which is still under this benchmark btw, makes this a factual statement.
But the sentence that they CAN make $500k is still true
The sentence was they can make 500k a year easily. If it’s the top 5% making it only then it’s not easy, ergo it’s not true.
You're quoting someone else, but replying to me. Check yourself.
You replied to them in their discussion of an argument that had already been established. Just because you chimed in doesn’t change the argument.
Agreed, the numbers don’t add up.
The other issue is dentistry is getting killed by all these private equity firms buying up/opening these dental offices and with the debt from increased tuitions it's difficult to buy a practice and start up on your own. If you're not doing endo, ortho, or OMFS the average dentist is making 175-200k with a cap of like 350k. Sure there are outliers making 500-700k but much less common. It's like what medicine went through in the 90s. Suddenly due to HMOs doctors pay dramatically shrunk. The dentist are feeling it now. I actually went to dental school for a year and then switched to medicine. Kind of glad I made the move now.
Agree. When I saw how much I owed when I graduated from law school, I had to do a double take. I lived off loans while in school and it was so easy signing those student loan papers, but the total blew me away. I graduated with a significant negative net worth but I landed a job with a leading law firm and 30 years later, those loans are long paid off and I have several million in net worth. Definitely forward economic progress for me and my family. Significant student loans can easily be a good investment (you're borrowing money to invest in yourself) depending on what you study and where you end up working.
Did you go Caribbean? 550k for USMD seems high. Unless you’re factoring in undergrad as well.
No. US grad. I was a single father with child support payments,despite having split custody (but that is the burden of being a father in this country...). I had to take out high living expense loans to support myself, my kids, and the child support payments. BTW, we divorced because she found a boyfriend while I was deployed to Iraq with the Army. I also survived off of student loans. Didn't matter though. I had a penis, and thus had to pay...
Congrats on getting through that. I 100% should have divorced my wife ms2 year with a newborn instead of a year after residency with 3 kids. I had no idea how I could have done med school and residency as a single dad though.
Knew you didn’t like her & had 2 more kids?
Being physically and emotionally abused can really fuck with your head and make you feel like you don’t deserve anything better. Plus birth control failures.
You seem fun
Also keep in mind that the number is what they said they graduated residency with, which means the actual amount that was taken out was lower prior to the high monthly interest accrual during med school and during residency.
Correct.
He could go on to become an oral surgeon.
Guess how much they can make?
$120k per month.
Let him sail his own ship.
That's an outlier. Not the norm.
And people need to know that omfs is one of the hardest training spots to get, and the hardest to graduate in dental residency.
Thanks for the perspective!
The numbers are pretty crazy for oral surgeons!
120k monthly pay is an outlier for OMFS. Yes it’s possible, but it’s not the norm.
What's the norm
Probably between 30%-60% of that number depending on the type of employer.
Probably around $500k if you are W2 when you average out hospital / DSO as well as PP type.
Over $750k you are exclusively looking at practice owner types. And $1M practice owner + very busy / high volume
Thanks man. Are you omfs
This!
He could specialize in Implant Dentistry and do several a day.
Let him lead his own life. Make sure he wants to go into dentistry for the love of it tho and make sure he becomes a dental sub specialist as they can make great money lol.
I promise you very few people in dentistry are in it for the love of it
Yup I’m not surprised. But hopefully they at least enjoy it. Doing it for 20-30 years will make you miserable if you hate looking at teeth all day.
Bending over and working in people’s mouth is no one’s love anyone who says otherwise is a liar
You’re generalizing dude.
My best friend is a general dentist and owns his own practice.
He loves it.
His father was an orthopedic surgeon and they both love working with their hands. Sure money is important too but my friend truly loves what he does.
I’ve been at dinners talking to him and his wife and I asked him if he loves what he does. His wife instantly responded yes. He didn’t respond his wife did. Guess what? He didn’t deny it.
Personally I would not advise against it. Dentistry, at least for some people, seems to have one of the best income vs work ratios in healthcare.
I’m an MD but sometimes think I should have gone the dental route when I see all these dentists posting about making $800k or more working 9-5 four days a week.
life is harder for everyone now, just because his deal is worse than it would have been in the past doesn't mean theres any better option
Very true. Have to work the math we currently have , not focus on previous prices.
This.
This is true and it may only get worse
What kind of answer is this
A realistic one.
It's a null answer...
Yesterdays price is not today's price.
The loan is definitely crazy but dentistry is also AI proof and basically recession proof too. Can’t say the same thing about software engineering.
You have to think about what his alternative is. He prepared his life for dental school. Even if he had a degree in engineering, he didn’t do any internships or network with anyone in that field. He’ll be left unemployed with the tough job market.
Also, NYU dentists have been graduating with $750k debt since pre COVID.
Don’t ruin people’s dreams. It’s not always about the money. I’d be miserable doing anything but dental.
$2m debt. Not even worried. Dentistry has been all I wanted to do and it’s given me more than I could’ve imagined.
Show some encouragement.
Dentists all drive Porsches. My buddy’s a peds dentist and is doing quite well 3 years out.
Having a car does not necessarily mean comfortably affording a car.
True… but running a business and not depending upon insurance payments can pay off well if run well.
Do you have any alternatives to offer him do? Or you just gonna tell him to give up on his dream to vibe? Getting into dental school is no small task.
What’s his alternative? If you are not offering any then your advice is kinda useless.
Dude, don’t do dentistry, just become a venture capitalist!
I know this is going to get a lot of hate.
Tell your brother only to go into dental if he truely loves it. There is a decline in income year over year due to stagnant insurance payment and corp takeover. Most dentists do not make 300k plus as new grads like you see on some facebook groups.
Some people will say just specialize and while it is true that the income basically instantly doubles what a gp makes, you still accumulate an extra 300k in loans and again are now stuck in a narrow part of dentistry.
I am tired of seeing posts everyday on dental forums about how misrable people are in dental because they thought the income would be amazing or how they need to figure out how to get out as soon as possible because of how much they hate it.
This. Like medicine, you shouldn't be choosing it for the money. You should crunch the best predicted numbers for full information, but that's not the only deciding factor by far. Before med school I figured out I'd have to work full-time medicine until 65 years old to break even compared to staying in my then-career (in retrospect I was probably about right). I did it anyway because medicine was what I wanted to do with my life, but at least I had reasonable expectations.
For the federal portion he can work at an FQHC and get some loan forgiveness that route. Couple of my friends are doing it and making $220K+ with solid benefits.
He could very well wind up making 1M plus in 10 years. It's like buying a new machine that generates 5-10x the income of your peers.
He could get a health professions scholarship and have his education paid for if he serves 4 years in the military.
They can consider an armed forces scholarship. Basically all tuition is paid and you’re stipend for CoL and you serve 4 years in the branch that paid your way. I have a couple classmates that did it. One for army and another for navy. Dude in navy went to San Diego for 4 years, lived on base and got a decent salary and all expenses like CE/malpracrice/etc covered. After that he was done and debt free. Especially with the cost of school now, it would be something to consider. Spending 600k on school to come out only making 150j just ain’t worth it.
What are his other options? I can't say I know any poor, struggling dentists.
Why tf is dental school so expensive?
One of the few cardinal rules when it comes to in-laws: Avoid giving advice.
“Good job on your admission to Dental School! I know it can be overwhelming with all the loans and such so if you need help going over the numbers I’m happy to sit down with you and share what I’ve learned”
It’s absolutely not your job to discourage him but depending on your relationship with him, you can be a sounding board to make sure he is making an informed choice.
I'm a dentist but only make about 900k a year as a general dentist. It ain't hard work.
I’m assuming you are a practice owner?
Yes. Bread and butter dentistry. Low stress, happy patients and easy life.
Only? Wtf
They’re being sarcastic and trying to flex on a sub of people who all make great money. Don’t think too hard about it!
I feel for you so much. I'm and MD and I talk everyone I know out of it, unless their families can support them 80% (because so many years of not making money for residency, paying for tests, match process and so on). I tell everyone to go into dentistry LOL. Grass is greener, I guess. In all seriousness, try to stay out of it but you can have a little chat about forecasting and how he intends to pay it all back. It's brutal out there!
I'm an MD as well and it has worked out decently me for me so far (despite not being a $500k plus specialist). But I still think about other routes with shorter training some times (specifically CRNA).
His chances of getting into crna are almost as slim and he would have to go backwards with being a nurse working in the icu and hopefully he will get accepted.
I make $330k as a CRNA. Can confirm it’s a good gig. At a minimum it takes 4 years for BSN, 2 years icu, 3 years of CRNA school though.
I started the process at age 23 to take nursing school pre-reqs. my engineering gpa was 2.8. I got a 4.0 in nursing school then retook some other classes to get 60 hours of 4.0 grades.
I had to work some years in med-surg because ICU wasn’t hiring new grads at the time.
I got rejected from 3 schools, got accepted to the 4th one.
It was scary applying, interviewing and all that work only to be rejected.
I finished CRNA school at age 36.
Also had to maintain 84% average on test scores during CRNA school.
This is a different kind of stress than med school which is pass fail. Wife is an ER doc.
For sure, I agree. I was not thinking of him to do that. Just in general, I think CRNA might be the best gig in healthcare right now if you prioritize job stability, debt to income, work life balance, job stress, liability, etc.
You must have started late. If you finish college (where prestige, aka tuition, doesn't matter, at age 22, work (making 70k plus a year) for 2 years until age 24, CRNA school until age 27 and you come out making $250k plus is a pretty sweet deal.
My friend is a general dentist in a boutique practice making 500k as an associate (practice owner made 800k last year). None of the dentists there work more than 3 days/week, it’s actually 2.5 days. He’s struggling to find things to do with all his free time. This is impossible in the CRNA world. I make 468k as a 1099 CRNA, but that’s M-F if I never took a day of vacation and got a guaranteed 40hr/week (which is rarely the case).
CRNA’s are also giving anesthesia on weekends and the middle of the night and Christmas Day. It sucks missing key life events and not sleeping next to your spouse every night. It’s not for wimps.
No one’s forcing us to do that though, all the CRNAs who do that chose that kind of practice setting. I can take off whenever I want, don’t work nights/weekends/holidays, no call, and no OB. I’ll never go back to a hospital to be more stressed for less money.
I was in engineering school at a top rated school and dropped out at age 23 with 2.8 gpa. Retook differential equations, calc 3, etc. was in power circuits and electromagnetics and couldn’t handle it.
It took time to do pre reqs for nursing school and wait for school to start. I did lpn, ADN then bridged to BSN. Took a long time to get into CRNA school which has 10% acceptance rate.
Hind sight is 20/20.
Obviously in a perfect world you get your BSN by age 22 with 4.0, immediately start working in an ICU and get accepted to CRNA by age 23 and finish by 26. I didn’t have that crystal ball.
I graduated anesthesia residency last year and the average SRNA was older than the average resident. There’s a long line of qualified nurses trying to go the CRNA route. It’s a great career but hard to recommend to a strong high school student who has all doors open to them.
U
Stay out of it. And most dentists eventually do just fine.
You can help by making sure he is clear on the facts…
How much is a modest debt load at this school going to be and what does a 10 year loan term at ~8% on 500k (rounding for simplicity) look like? That’s 40k interest Y1 plus principal over a decade another 40k, so ~7k/mo after tax goes out the door.
That either hits as reasonable, fits his goal since he wants to do big time dentistry, but the clarity is around not really being able to buy into a practice and work quite hard maybe extra shifts for at least a few years to have some liquid funds and to get the debt down where a bank might lend more.
Same goes for buying a home, marriage if that’s in his general wish list.
None of these are judging or telling him what to do, only ensuring he is clear eyed on what he’s signing up for.
Leave it at that unless he asks for more advice.
Dentists that can run a business make bank
110k/yr for dental school is outrageous. That’s more than most med schools and dentists typically make less than physicians
He will be fine financially, no matter what he decides to do within dentistry. Tell him not to practice in CA or NYC, he will make less than half of elsewhere.
You don’t know what you don’t know. You can’t see what you can’t see. Don’t give advice to your brother in law.
Is his focus dentistry due to money? If so tell him to do radiology instead. He'll make 3x a dentists income.
Radiology is competitive as hell - and you have to get into medical school first.
He already has a dental school acceptance. Getting into medical school is NOT a given, not at all
It’s a stable job that pays well and is not physically taxing. Good work life balance. It’s a big upfront investment, for a career of 30+ years. It’s a faster path than med school, so he will start earning sooner and have more years of practice.
Not physically taxing is inaccurate. Neck and back problems abound dentists unfortunately
It is physically taxing. A lot more than people think and very mentally exhausting. I’m a general dentist and I don’t think dentistry is worth it anymore. Maybe if you specialize in OS because you’ll at least get paid during residency.
It's literally the most physically taxing
Do you honestly think that Dentistry is "literally the most physically taxing" job?
Just depends on the person. If he is a driven person and works well with people he can be very successful. If he’s mostly just book smart, then he could make a pretty meh salary all in all after his debt service. I’d argue these days practice ownership is more important than ever and gives you the highest chance of financial success. The sky is the limit. Pediatric dentist here, made over $900k in 2025.
Getting into dental school is a feat in itself. I wouldn’t rain on his parade.
There was a recent WCI post of a dentist 5 years into practice as an associate who already has paid off $550k of student loan debt.
I know dentists that struggle, and I know dentists that are making a killing. Many more in the latter group.
The only time I’d discourage someone from going into such heavy debt for school is if a good job on the other side wasn’t virtually guaranteed. In this case it’s hard to mess up, and even more so if they were to leave options open for jobs after school. And if he decides to go into oral surgery… that income is another level.
I would strongly advise against if he has take on debt. Absolutely not worth it.
Most people that attend professional school have to take on debt . The upside is if he goes the gen dentist route he won't have to worry about residency and he can be a gen dentist anywhere I believe
Yes, but it isn’t the right move financially. Don’t know why all these people get so upset when someone tells them something they don’t want to hear. If someone insists on going into debt, then at least do it for a profession where you have a high income. Dentistry is not the one.
How when dentist make more than most professions ?
The debt, in most cases, doesn’t make mathematical sense. I mean, yes, you do better than plenty of other jobs out there but not by much. If you’re gonna go into debt, go to med school where the earning potential is significantly more. Not to mention, many other career paths with little to no debt. Once again, people latch on to something and get fixated without considering other options or why it may not be a good idea financially. Just my 0.02
What’s your definition of a high income?
$300k a year especially considering inflation
Very easily obtainable as a general dentist
Ty
Excuse me? Are you a dentist? Brah.. if it’s easily attainable then show me some job postings?! Total cap. Yes, attainable if you place implants or see 30-40 patients a day and can do molar endo in 45 minutes with post and core crown prep. 300k is not easily attainable. As an owner? Yes, usually but not in every case either. Like I said before, if you want an easily attainable 300k + job go into big law or medicine.
Super easy for an owner.
I’m an associate. A lazy one. I work 4 days/32 hours a week. No molar endo. Some implants. Cleared $320k this year.
Get out of the metro where there is a dentist on every corner.
And no one is going to hand you $300k as a salary. You have to earn it via production.
How Da Fuk is dental school $110K a year?
Thats what they list on the website. Thats before living e