Clearly it’s not working that way. Perhaps we should call it what it is… a needle distribution program. It’s called a needle exchange because everyone knows just distributing 20,000+ needles every month would be extremely irresponsible. Probably time to cut off funding to distributors until they start taking the “exchange” part seriously.
This is a place to ensure needle diseases dont spread
You DO NOT need a dirty needle to get a clean one… that would completely ruin the purpose of this program
You can have an argument for or against this program… but you are making yourself look foolish by completely misrepresenting due to the name of the program
People like you are why we have to call it climate CHANGE now instead of global WARMING because you take things too literal
You don’t even know me… you seem to be a very prejudicial person.
This policy ensuring needle diseases aren’t spread is… failing miserably. When programs fail miserably it’s time to stop them until they can be fixed to actually work.
The problem is that NEPs exist in part because they are supposed to curb hazardous syringe litter. They don't only exist to reduce bloodborne pathogens for addicts, that's only one of the public health benefits they're intended to provide. Needle deposit sites are supposed to be an intrinsic part of a successful NEP and the rate of syringe litter in Chittenden County is pretty clearly a sign that the local NEP is not working as intended. When excess hazardous syringe litter is present, it's a sign that needle deposit sites aren't accessible, sufficient, or the administrators aren't trying hard enough. I know you'll just attack me, but I'm a doctor who formerly worked on Methadone Mile helping to administer one of these programs and you don't know what you're talking about.
”Safer Injection Support Programs, or syringe exchange programs, are designed to prevent the spread of HIV, viral
hepatitis and other pathogens, and provide a bridge to drug treatment and other prevention services for injection
drug users”
Their FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT GOAL is to provide safe needles to curb the spread of diseases…. Right there from the Vermont Legislature
Yes… getting some needles off the street is a bonus… but IS NOT NEEDED for a user to obtain a safe needle… because… thats not what the program was made for…
needs in county are a clear sign of NEP
Again WE DO NOT KNOW where this needle came from or if it is even attributed to ANY safe needle program in vermont…. For all we know this needle was purchased by a user from Walmart…
You cant provide one single source to back that claim up… stop making things up
i know you will attack me… im a doctor
Didnt attack you…. You are just factually incorrect
You are a doctor? Me too. What hospital do you work at? I would LOVE to have a talk with your board about you being extremely misinformed on this topic and spreading harmful misinformation to potential patients
Why are they called needle exchanges then? What's being exchanged? You are the type of doctor that made me lose all faith in doctors. Talking down to people. Not actually looking to help, just looking to be right. Threatening people because you feel intillectually threatened.
for 1… they are called “safer injection support programs”
For 2… really weird to take it literally as you HAVE to exchange a needle to get a needle… probably why they no longer use those names for folks such as yourself
talking down
When someone is ignoring facts for their feelings… i think they are doing all the shaming themselves
just looking to be right
Im not looking to do anything…. Facts typically make you right by default
threatening people
This… its hard to be “nice” when you completely misrepresent reality for your own strange perception of what is actually happening
$100 you show where i “threatened” you or anyone in this thread.
I am aware of Vermont's NEP guidance and what I'm saying is that is is clearly inadequate and not developed in line with federal or international evidence-based guidelines on actual effective NEPs. Syringe access programs are supposed to have multiple positive community effects, one of which is increasing the rates of safe sharp disposal sites. As with many of our state programs, the guidelines on this program are poorly drafted and not sufficiently evidence-based, and even what is there is insufficiently operationalized. I'm not against NEPs, but they are there for community public health and not only to protect people who are addicted to drugs. In 2024 it was recognized that there was a greatly increased number of syringe litter and up to 30% of the syringes were unused and originating from the exchange programs. The BOH recognized there was a problem at that time. The state is partially at fault here for clinging to an outdated and inadequate program with multiple known failure modes. The program doesn't need to be discontinued, but it does need overhaul to put it in line with evidence-based guidelines on harm reduction for the entire community, not just harm reduction for needle users.
The program is indeed working "as planned," but compared to other programs the guidelines are horseshit, so when you operationalize horseshit it's still going to be horseshit.
Please point out what is NOT up to national standards?
Again… your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is based on this needle being from a program
You simply DO NOT know that.
Ignoring all of your personal feelings in that paragraph… please point to specific examples of how this is not inline with every other program across the country.
Lets try a different tactic since this is entertaining how uneducated you are
Provide me HARD FACTS to back up your 2 claims
Claim 1…. This program does not work as it was planned to work
Claim 2…. This needle came from this program or from someone in the program
If you CANNOT back up those 2 claims with hard facts and a link to back it up… then everything you said is based on feelings and you are an uneducated dum dum
Dont be a coward and run away now… lets see it… back up your feelings 😎
No one is saying that how the program works... They are saying that how it should work, otherwise it's not a needle "exchange" program, it's just giving out free drug paraphernalia
There should be more cleans ups done, but calls for making a public health program less effective in hopes of preventing public health risks that are non-existent is misguided and the argument on this thread is based on ignorance regardless of how good the intentions are of everyone involved.
It does not but considering VT gives out several 10s of thousands of needles every month with a return rate of around 25% I think it’s fairly obvious where all these needles are coming from.
Addicts arent going to pay for something someone will give them.
No you don’t… you just don’t get a new needle until you bring in an old needle. It’s irresponsible to do otherwise and it’s clearly having harmful impact on our kids.
Go to the safe harbor outreach clinic on s Williams st in Burlington and ask if someone would kindly explain the challenges face by people with drug addiction in the context of strict 1 to 1 needle exchanges.
Go to an elementary school and talk with them
About the challenges of keeping kids safe around drug addicts who are handed out 10’s of thousands of needles each month…
Equally speaking, an 8 year old didn’t choose to be exposed to a needle. You can’t say the same thing for the addict… that’s the problem. I understand an addict isn’t the most responsible person out there, but this is the second instance this school year with S BTV earlier in the year. How many more are we going to have? It’s ok to change course and strategy when somethings not working out as thought.
Well, in some case you kind of can. People develop addiction for a lot of reasons including being prescribed by their doctor, there’s the mental health aspect.
It’s obviously not working. When needles are showing up at multiple elementary schools and litter the entirely city of Burlington it’s simply irresponsible. It’s hard to say who the dum dum is… the person that left the needles at a school or the person that gave them the needles.
"There's nothing wrong with the current system even though this is the second case of a child getting stuck with a used needle in the past 3 months (something nearly unheard of in Vermont prior to this year). Statistics always account for every variable and shouldn't be scrutinized or given any level of nuance at all."
Now watch this person respond to me with a rant about how I'm uneducated and a terrible person.
It feels a little disingenuous referring to someone who left a used needle at a school ground playground as a "dum dum". Leaving needles is an act that's extremely selfish and dangerous to the public. It would be akin to calling someone who left their broken glass "silly".
While I see the benefit of this program in regards to decreasing needle based diseases, it seems like there needs to be a method to reduce the number of needles in the public or require individuals participating in the program to "exchange"/return previously used needles.
If children are getting poked by used needles at their school playground, a location that's supposed to be safe and we as a society agree is important, perhaps it's time to have a different discussion about harm reduction.
Criminal incarceration is different than institutionalizing someone. I think it’s fair game that an arrest for public intoxication on fentanyl carries a sentence of inpatient rehab for a year or 2
60-70% of people who go to jail end up going back. If you send someone to jail or prison, it’s likely that the become a career criminal and cost all of us a lot more.
Has Vermonts plan done any better?
I know locking up criminals is safer than giving them access to drugs and letting them roam free without consequence.
There are studies that show when you open safe use or harm reduction sites, there is no increase in crime in the area. It is not the policy or plan that is causing the crime you think you’re seeing.
But it doesn’t. I just said how decades and decades of evidence have shown that locking up people for non violent crimes does not lower the crime rate. It just increases recidivism and the prison population.
Sure, you may get an initial bump of lowered crime if you lock up a bunch of people. But as we’ve seen over time, this doesn’t result in any sort of meaningful and beneficial change. It just keeps putting more and more people in jail where they come out worse off than before.
No it wouldn't. You are only thinking immediately.
In the long term, this costs more money and places those who need help in places with criminals. They get out, and become criminals. They did not get the help they needed and instead they are now worse for society.
You have to think about the long term effects of your impulsive idea.
It's amazing. You hear, "we can't arrest our way out of this" over and over, and that might even be true. But what about institutionalizing our way out? Around me, I see the same junkies out buying, selling, using and ODing for years. They make up most of the small fraction of people that's responsible for most of the arrests and police calls. I see them shambling around on purple, swollen legs.
Our leaders have chosen to let these guys slowly kill themselves on the street, causing all sorts of misery and havoc to those around them along the way, instead of doing anything even slightly coercive to get them to stop. At a minimum we should be honest that that is the choice we're deliberately making. Hopefully kids getting stuck by needles at school will be the thing that gets people to finally say "this is unacceptable".
But who am I kidding? "We offered them services" (the blue-team version of 'thoughts and prayers') - what more are we supposed to do?
How about making incarceration about rehabilitation. The bigger problem is if there was a magic pill and every addict could get clean today then we still don’t have a place for them. Jobs, housing, etc. It would also create a ton of unemployment. I’d be super curious to know how many addicts we have vs how many people earn even a % of their salary “helping”. Think police, fire, ems, social workers, shelters, social service non profits, methadone clinics, insurance companies, local/stare/federal government etc. We undoubtedly have more people helping then being helped.
Things like methadone clinics and handing out methadone in the VT corrections system are the issue,
Send them to jail and make them detox.
I’d much rather have addicts behind bars than children or anyone getting exposed to things like the OP shows.
I have a buddy that has been getting methadone for 20 years. He’s literally dying now in his early 40s. It’s horrible to watch. They have made 100s of 1000s of dollars off him and he is in worse shape then when he started. I also worked at a low barrier shelter about 10 years ago and I still see some of those same folks in worse shape walking around town. At some point we have to admit what we are doing is not working. If it was working then the mofos making the money would being sharing the “data”. What % of folks receiving this help get to a spot they can live a halfway decent life?
It breaks my heart to see folks arguing to keep folks in these situations so they can justify their paychecks. I’ve seen it first hand.
They aren't the issue. The issue is that you and others are trained heavily on the war on drugs propaganda.
They are people struggling in life and you just want to jail them to get out of your field of view. You don't care what happens to them after the fact.
Do you honestly believe that incarceration is the best way to help a drug addict? Do those facilities have the proper infrastructure to handle drug addicts safely? Are the employees there trained in drug rehabilitation or intervention?
I would disagree if we are using jails and prisons for them to serve time. I agree if we can have the addicts serve time for crime (not just for being an addict) in more constructive facilities and resources.
I have a hard time believing a correctional facility will ever be able to provide the proper care and support for an addict. Especially if they are considered criminals due to their addiction. That's a hard mental turn to expect the correctional officers to be able to detain criminals and be caring to the addicted.
The correctional facilities already exist. They are also meant to serve this purpose. If Vermont decided to build new facilities then when do you think they would be ready? Living as a drug addict on the street is about the worst life you can imagine. There isn’t a parking lot or alley in Brattleboro I haven’t slept in. The universal goal is to not have so many folks suffering. Seems to be a disagreement on how to get there. What we are doing now isn’t working.
I completely agree, hopefully we can work on a path that succeeds.
The correctional facilities already exist. They are also meant to serve this purpose.
To be clear, are we talking about drug rehabilitation or crime rehabilitation? I know they are set up for criminals, but I'm less confident they are set up for drug rehabilitation.
Jokes aside, I do understand where you are coming from, Vermont has taken meaningful steps to provide rehabilitation. I just do not believe they are set up as a drug rehabilitation facility.
I would prefer to have drug rehabilitation and crime rehabilitation separate. This would be on a case by case basis.
Why is it a working person can pay all their bills and survive on $50k a year and it costs 5-20x that amount to keep someone locked up? It makes zero sense.
A lot of interesting data in there. I wonder if there is a correlation between paying correctional officers more and incarnating less people due to the cost? Idk it’s interesting.
You do understand it costs more to jail a drug addict than it does to provide them help.
According to Vera, the average cost per inmate is over $33,000 per year. However, this varies depending on the state. For example, Alabama has the lowest at around $15,000, and New York is the highest at almost $70,000 per inmate.
In contrast, the cost of rehab averages around $5000. This makes rehab vs. incarceration a much more cost-effective choice.
The Cost of Jail vs. Treatment for Drug Offenders: How Much Do We Save? Sana Lake - Missouri Alcohol & Drug Rehab https://share.google/nxK0ba680kilNYBEJ
The problem is that with just rehab folks go back into the same social circles. Sure it’s cheaper but it’s also not effective. If it was then that data would be shared to secure more funding. The drug issues are getting worse not better, even with more money and more folks employed “doing the work”.
2018 I luckily suffered a devastating back injury and it put me down for 3 months. Gave me enough time away from hard drugs to realize I didn’t want to go back. I still had to deal with the alcohol part of my problem and that took about 5 more years. I also had to use the nuclear option on my social circle. That was tough watching folks I care about go down in flames. Couple dozen of them gone forever and most of those had been in the system for years if not decades. Shit like this…
It’s supposed to be a “needle exchange”….. stop handing out needles without the exchange part.
***edit.. cant believe i am being downvoted… you dont need a dirty needle to get a fresh clean needle guys… cant believe i have to explain that
***edit #2 … after i call this guy out to back up his claims…. He blocked me 🤡
Thats…. Thats not how that works lololol
Clearly it’s not working that way. Perhaps we should call it what it is… a needle distribution program. It’s called a needle exchange because everyone knows just distributing 20,000+ needles every month would be extremely irresponsible. Probably time to cut off funding to distributors until they start taking the “exchange” part seriously.
Wow that is… extremely uneducated
This is a place to ensure needle diseases dont spread
You DO NOT need a dirty needle to get a clean one… that would completely ruin the purpose of this program
You can have an argument for or against this program… but you are making yourself look foolish by completely misrepresenting due to the name of the program
People like you are why we have to call it climate CHANGE now instead of global WARMING because you take things too literal
Leaving dirty needles all over the place doesn't ensure that needle diseases don't spread
You don’t even know me… you seem to be a very prejudicial person.
This policy ensuring needle diseases aren’t spread is… failing miserably. When programs fail miserably it’s time to stop them until they can be fixed to actually work.
Do you enjoy embarrassing yourself?
Statistically your statement is FLASE
This has greatly curbed the numbers of needle diseases being spread… it is a tried and true method
Try basing your opinion on FACTS and not your personal feelings that you cant back up
The problem is that NEPs exist in part because they are supposed to curb hazardous syringe litter. They don't only exist to reduce bloodborne pathogens for addicts, that's only one of the public health benefits they're intended to provide. Needle deposit sites are supposed to be an intrinsic part of a successful NEP and the rate of syringe litter in Chittenden County is pretty clearly a sign that the local NEP is not working as intended. When excess hazardous syringe litter is present, it's a sign that needle deposit sites aren't accessible, sufficient, or the administrators aren't trying hard enough. I know you'll just attack me, but I'm a doctor who formerly worked on Methadone Mile helping to administer one of these programs and you don't know what you're talking about.
That simply is NOT true….
”Safer Injection Support Programs, or syringe exchange programs, are designed to prevent the spread of HIV, viral hepatitis and other pathogens, and provide a bridge to drug treatment and other prevention services for injection drug users”
https://legislature.vermont.gov/Documents/2022/WorkGroups/House%20Human%20Services/Bills/H.728/Witness%20Documents/W~David%20Englander~DR%2022-0621,%20VT%20Dept.%20of%20Health%20Operating%20Guidelines%20for%20Organized%20Community-based%20Safer%20Injection%20Support%20Programs%20July%202012~3-11-2022.pdf
Their FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT GOAL is to provide safe needles to curb the spread of diseases…. Right there from the Vermont Legislature
Yes… getting some needles off the street is a bonus… but IS NOT NEEDED for a user to obtain a safe needle… because… thats not what the program was made for…
Again WE DO NOT KNOW where this needle came from or if it is even attributed to ANY safe needle program in vermont…. For all we know this needle was purchased by a user from Walmart…
You cant provide one single source to back that claim up… stop making things up
Didnt attack you…. You are just factually incorrect
You are a doctor? Me too. What hospital do you work at? I would LOVE to have a talk with your board about you being extremely misinformed on this topic and spreading harmful misinformation to potential patients
Why are they called needle exchanges then? What's being exchanged? You are the type of doctor that made me lose all faith in doctors. Talking down to people. Not actually looking to help, just looking to be right. Threatening people because you feel intillectually threatened.
Well…
for 1… they are called “safer injection support programs”
For 2… really weird to take it literally as you HAVE to exchange a needle to get a needle… probably why they no longer use those names for folks such as yourself
When someone is ignoring facts for their feelings… i think they are doing all the shaming themselves
Im not looking to do anything…. Facts typically make you right by default
This… its hard to be “nice” when you completely misrepresent reality for your own strange perception of what is actually happening
$100 you show where i “threatened” you or anyone in this thread.
I am aware of Vermont's NEP guidance and what I'm saying is that is is clearly inadequate and not developed in line with federal or international evidence-based guidelines on actual effective NEPs. Syringe access programs are supposed to have multiple positive community effects, one of which is increasing the rates of safe sharp disposal sites. As with many of our state programs, the guidelines on this program are poorly drafted and not sufficiently evidence-based, and even what is there is insufficiently operationalized. I'm not against NEPs, but they are there for community public health and not only to protect people who are addicted to drugs. In 2024 it was recognized that there was a greatly increased number of syringe litter and up to 30% of the syringes were unused and originating from the exchange programs. The BOH recognized there was a problem at that time. The state is partially at fault here for clinging to an outdated and inadequate program with multiple known failure modes. The program doesn't need to be discontinued, but it does need overhaul to put it in line with evidence-based guidelines on harm reduction for the entire community, not just harm reduction for needle users.
The program is indeed working "as planned," but compared to other programs the guidelines are horseshit, so when you operationalize horseshit it's still going to be horseshit.
Please point out what is NOT up to national standards?
Again… your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is based on this needle being from a program
You simply DO NOT know that.
Ignoring all of your personal feelings in that paragraph… please point to specific examples of how this is not inline with every other program across the country.
Once again putting drug addicts ahead of the innocent people their carelessness harms
No
lol. Stop projecting on me.
Again embarrassing yourself
Projection would mean i am basing my views on my feelings….
All i have done is give you facts you can very easily verify on your own
But… i wouldn’t expect much more from someone who goes around ignoring facts and crying about their personal feelings as if they matter
Again, making incorrect assumptions.
Lol that’s not what projecting means… 😂😂 You clearly don’t understand what a fact is Who’s crying about their personal feelings? You’re wild man.
Lets try a different tactic since this is entertaining how uneducated you are
Provide me HARD FACTS to back up your 2 claims
Claim 1…. This program does not work as it was planned to work
Claim 2…. This needle came from this program or from someone in the program
If you CANNOT back up those 2 claims with hard facts and a link to back it up… then everything you said is based on feelings and you are an uneducated dum dum
Dont be a coward and run away now… lets see it… back up your feelings 😎
You say your giving facts and you're just saying your opinion is a fact.
Absolute chud.
No one is saying that how the program works... They are saying that how it should work, otherwise it's not a needle "exchange" program, it's just giving out free drug paraphernalia
One for one exchanges are not best practices, needs based programs have much better outcomes. There has never been a documented case of HIV transmission for a discarded syringe. https://www.sfaf.org/collections/beta/we-say-needle-exchange-but-open-access-not-one-for-one-exchange-is-best-for-health/
There should be more cleans ups done, but calls for making a public health program less effective in hopes of preventing public health risks that are non-existent is misguided and the argument on this thread is based on ignorance regardless of how good the intentions are of everyone involved.
Amen
How is there such certainty that this needle is from an exchange program? Does it say it somewhere in the article?
It does not but considering VT gives out several 10s of thousands of needles every month with a return rate of around 25% I think it’s fairly obvious where all these needles are coming from.
Addicts arent going to pay for something someone will give them.
To make that truly happen you’d need a safe injection site
No you don’t… you just don’t get a new needle until you bring in an old needle. It’s irresponsible to do otherwise and it’s clearly having harmful impact on our kids.
People get needles with or without an exchange.
Yeah, it’s becoming a problem.
Go to the safe harbor outreach clinic on s Williams st in Burlington and ask if someone would kindly explain the challenges face by people with drug addiction in the context of strict 1 to 1 needle exchanges.
Go to an elementary school and talk with them About the challenges of keeping kids safe around drug addicts who are handed out 10’s of thousands of needles each month…
I'd be more worried for the addicts
I’m sorry to hear that. We all get to choose our priorities though.
Your perspective seems to be we need to think of the addicts over the children. I’m gonna suggest you reflect some on that.
My stance is you need to look at the whole system and value each life equally
Equally speaking, an 8 year old didn’t choose to be exposed to a needle. You can’t say the same thing for the addict… that’s the problem. I understand an addict isn’t the most responsible person out there, but this is the second instance this school year with S BTV earlier in the year. How many more are we going to have? It’s ok to change course and strategy when somethings not working out as thought.
Well, in some case you kind of can. People develop addiction for a lot of reasons including being prescribed by their doctor, there’s the mental health aspect.
In any case they are still human beings
This person has no desire to learn anything
They ignore facts and base life off their uneducated feelings
Dont even waste your time with them
I will give everyone a chance to learn, sometimes it’s just they have only heard misinformation or don’t know enough to know better
Not in this situation
Thats literally not how the program works
And would ruin the entire purpose of this program 🥴🥴
I know… it’s how it should be working. The purpose of the program is proving harmful to children. Time to end the program.
Ending the program will be far more harmful to kids than keeping it running
Probably not. But, hear me out… you could also make it an “exchange” which would be beneficial to all involved.
Prove to is this needle CAME FROM the program?
Because if this needle DID NOT come from it then your entire argument falls apart
Not to mention the program is STILL WORKING even if some dum dum left their needle in the playground
It’s obviously not working. When needles are showing up at multiple elementary schools and litter the entirely city of Burlington it’s simply irresponsible. It’s hard to say who the dum dum is… the person that left the needles at a school or the person that gave them the needles.
Do you have an embarrassment kink?
Because you are acting like a fool
VERY VERYYYY easy to comprehend
1… these are NOT exchange spots..
2.. you DO NOT need a dirty need for a clean needle
3… this is to STOP the spread of needle diseases…
4….the statistics are available and this DOES WORK
5.. you DO NOT know where that needle came from so you CANNOT blame the program
This needle could have been purchased by the user from Walmart or CVS …
I dont see you yelling at those stores for selling items 🥴🥴🥴🥴
You clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of the world that works around you
At this point i kind of feel sorry for how uneducated you are and how much you base life off of your extremely unrealistic personal feelings
"There's nothing wrong with the current system even though this is the second case of a child getting stuck with a used needle in the past 3 months (something nearly unheard of in Vermont prior to this year). Statistics always account for every variable and shouldn't be scrutinized or given any level of nuance at all."
Now watch this person respond to me with a rant about how I'm uneducated and a terrible person.
ArE yOu A dOcToR?
Calm down. Keep your dirty needles to yourself.
It feels a little disingenuous referring to someone who left a used needle at a school ground playground as a "dum dum". Leaving needles is an act that's extremely selfish and dangerous to the public. It would be akin to calling someone who left their broken glass "silly".
While I see the benefit of this program in regards to decreasing needle based diseases, it seems like there needs to be a method to reduce the number of needles in the public or require individuals participating in the program to "exchange"/return previously used needles.
If children are getting poked by used needles at their school playground, a location that's supposed to be safe and we as a society agree is important, perhaps it's time to have a different discussion about harm reduction.
If my use of dum dum is the best counter argument you have…
Then you yourself are a dum dum
Also.. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THIS NEEDLE CAME FROM
This user could NOT EVEN BE IN THAT PROGRAM
bunch of uneducated dum dums coming out of the woodwork today
Oh bless your heart. I proposed a discussion around harm reduction and you're all up in a tizzy.
If you have any other opinions please share, the floor is yours. What are your ideas to reduce used needles in public spaces?
They volunteer to pick them up and then pat themselves on the back.
https://www.commonsnews.org/issue/789/789syringe_cleanup
I mean … i have an entire comment thread here of me providing factual… verifiable… information about these programs
You jumped in the middle and called me out for using words reddit wouldn’t ban me for
Then you misrepresented your original comment
But sure kiddo, whatever helps that ego.
Be in a program?
You just call Vermont CARES and they'll deliver a case of needles to you for free
Do you think drug addicts are paying for needles when there are multiple different places that will give them cases of them for free?
I’m not surprised that the child was found at school. What does surprise me is that the child poked by the needle was not found at the hospital.
We need more critical readers like you Zhirinovsky
Because they ran inside to the nurse? And once you’re poked there’s not like there’s a countdown ffs. This isn’t a mission impossible movie 🤦♂️
I think Zhirinovsky is joking.
This state protects criminals and junkies before its law abiding citizens and it sucks.
How about we start locking up people who use illegal drugs?
You mean the plan that U.S. has tried to use for decades and shown zero signs of making anything better? You want to go back to that plan?
Criminal incarceration is different than institutionalizing someone. I think it’s fair game that an arrest for public intoxication on fentanyl carries a sentence of inpatient rehab for a year or 2
60-70% of people who go to jail end up going back. If you send someone to jail or prison, it’s likely that the become a career criminal and cost all of us a lot more.
Has Vermonts plan done any better? I know locking up criminals is safer than giving them access to drugs and letting them roam free without consequence.
Do you have a better plan?
There are studies that show when you open safe use or harm reduction sites, there is no increase in crime in the area. It is not the policy or plan that is causing the crime you think you’re seeing.
Its not decreasing crime either. Locking them up would do so.
But it doesn’t. I just said how decades and decades of evidence have shown that locking up people for non violent crimes does not lower the crime rate. It just increases recidivism and the prison population.
Sure, you may get an initial bump of lowered crime if you lock up a bunch of people. But as we’ve seen over time, this doesn’t result in any sort of meaningful and beneficial change. It just keeps putting more and more people in jail where they come out worse off than before.
No it wouldn't. You are only thinking immediately.
In the long term, this costs more money and places those who need help in places with criminals. They get out, and become criminals. They did not get the help they needed and instead they are now worse for society.
You have to think about the long term effects of your impulsive idea.
It's amazing. You hear, "we can't arrest our way out of this" over and over, and that might even be true. But what about institutionalizing our way out? Around me, I see the same junkies out buying, selling, using and ODing for years. They make up most of the small fraction of people that's responsible for most of the arrests and police calls. I see them shambling around on purple, swollen legs.
Our leaders have chosen to let these guys slowly kill themselves on the street, causing all sorts of misery and havoc to those around them along the way, instead of doing anything even slightly coercive to get them to stop. At a minimum we should be honest that that is the choice we're deliberately making. Hopefully kids getting stuck by needles at school will be the thing that gets people to finally say "this is unacceptable".
But who am I kidding? "We offered them services" (the blue-team version of 'thoughts and prayers') - what more are we supposed to do?
Bun then the drug paraphernalia organizations would be run out of business!
They generate revenue. End of story.
How about making incarceration about rehabilitation. The bigger problem is if there was a magic pill and every addict could get clean today then we still don’t have a place for them. Jobs, housing, etc. It would also create a ton of unemployment. I’d be super curious to know how many addicts we have vs how many people earn even a % of their salary “helping”. Think police, fire, ems, social workers, shelters, social service non profits, methadone clinics, insurance companies, local/stare/federal government etc. We undoubtedly have more people helping then being helped.
Things like methadone clinics and handing out methadone in the VT corrections system are the issue, Send them to jail and make them detox. I’d much rather have addicts behind bars than children or anyone getting exposed to things like the OP shows.
I have a buddy that has been getting methadone for 20 years. He’s literally dying now in his early 40s. It’s horrible to watch. They have made 100s of 1000s of dollars off him and he is in worse shape then when he started. I also worked at a low barrier shelter about 10 years ago and I still see some of those same folks in worse shape walking around town. At some point we have to admit what we are doing is not working. If it was working then the mofos making the money would being sharing the “data”. What % of folks receiving this help get to a spot they can live a halfway decent life?
It breaks my heart to see folks arguing to keep folks in these situations so they can justify their paychecks. I’ve seen it first hand.
“Many people are saying”
Something. But “Most people aren’t listening”?
Yes you are the only person who truly understands, bloviating on Reddit. Get a life.
User name fits. lol
They aren't the issue. The issue is that you and others are trained heavily on the war on drugs propaganda.
They are people struggling in life and you just want to jail them to get out of your field of view. You don't care what happens to them after the fact.
Funny, I’ve worked corrections in this state. I have a pretty good idea of what happens.
Awesome, I welcome first hand information.
Do you honestly believe that incarceration is the best way to help a drug addict? Do those facilities have the proper infrastructure to handle drug addicts safely? Are the employees there trained in drug rehabilitation or intervention?
I think if we focus on incarceration as an opportunity for rehabilitation then we have a way forward. As it sits right now probably not tbh.
I would disagree if we are using jails and prisons for them to serve time. I agree if we can have the addicts serve time for crime (not just for being an addict) in more constructive facilities and resources.
I have a hard time believing a correctional facility will ever be able to provide the proper care and support for an addict. Especially if they are considered criminals due to their addiction. That's a hard mental turn to expect the correctional officers to be able to detain criminals and be caring to the addicted.
The correctional facilities already exist. They are also meant to serve this purpose. If Vermont decided to build new facilities then when do you think they would be ready? Living as a drug addict on the street is about the worst life you can imagine. There isn’t a parking lot or alley in Brattleboro I haven’t slept in. The universal goal is to not have so many folks suffering. Seems to be a disagreement on how to get there. What we are doing now isn’t working.
I completely agree, hopefully we can work on a path that succeeds.
To be clear, are we talking about drug rehabilitation or crime rehabilitation? I know they are set up for criminals, but I'm less confident they are set up for drug rehabilitation.
The corrections facilities in VT are the closest thing you will get to a rehab when it comes to jail/prison probably in the country.
Low bar lol.
Jokes aside, I do understand where you are coming from, Vermont has taken meaningful steps to provide rehabilitation. I just do not believe they are set up as a drug rehabilitation facility.
I would prefer to have drug rehabilitation and crime rehabilitation separate. This would be on a case by case basis.
I was an addict for 17 years. Try again.
You think people complain about taxes now? We cant even lock up people accused of violent crime.
Why is it a working person can pay all their bills and survive on $50k a year and it costs 5-20x that amount to keep someone locked up? It makes zero sense.
You ever tried hiring people to watch you 24/7 and cook your food 3 meals a day?
Remember when the focus was on how the prison system is for profit and maybe that wasn’t the right path?
I actually looked it up and it can be as low as 20k a year and as high as 250k a year.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-do-states-spend-on-prisons/
A lot of interesting data in there. I wonder if there is a correlation between paying correctional officers more and incarnating less people due to the cost? Idk it’s interesting.
You do understand it costs more to jail a drug addict than it does to provide them help.
The Cost of Jail vs. Treatment for Drug Offenders: How Much Do We Save? Sana Lake - Missouri Alcohol & Drug Rehab https://share.google/nxK0ba680kilNYBEJ
The problem is that with just rehab folks go back into the same social circles. Sure it’s cheaper but it’s also not effective. If it was then that data would be shared to secure more funding. The drug issues are getting worse not better, even with more money and more folks employed “doing the work”.
2018 I luckily suffered a devastating back injury and it put me down for 3 months. Gave me enough time away from hard drugs to realize I didn’t want to go back. I still had to deal with the alcohol part of my problem and that took about 5 more years. I also had to use the nuclear option on my social circle. That was tough watching folks I care about go down in flames. Couple dozen of them gone forever and most of those had been in the system for years if not decades. Shit like this…
https://www.doj.nh.gov/news-and-media/autopsy-results-august-4-2021-murder-suicide-hinsdale-new-hampshire
Dave and I grew up together. He got into drugs way before me. He was in the system for decades.