The Polish did not want Soviet help, the Soviets had in fact warned the Polish on numerous occasions about German intentions, and had sought an alliance against Germany with Poland’s primary friends France and the UK. While the latter were certainly reluctant, Poland was adamant in refusing in cooperation with the Soviets, which included denying them access to help Czechoslovakia in 1938. The real reason for which turned out to be the Poland also wanted some of the action and demanded Zaolzie region.
Poland was not exactly friends with neither the USSR nor Germany, but they still favored Germany. For example, following the Soviet-Polish war which ended on Polish term, they decided to be the opposite of magnanimous, they did not try to normalize relations, and as the leadership changed from Lenin to Stalin, the Polish did not react, it took a full decade before the Polish felt ready to sign a non-aggression pact with the Soviets in 1932. In contrast, when Hitler came to power, the Polish signed a non-aggression pact almost immediately, and further did so with personal notes between Hitler himself and Piłsudski. A courtesy they never offered to Stalin despite over a decade of attempted normalization, and the fact that Stalin hadn’t written a book where he literally called Polish people subhumans who was an atificial state that shouldn’t exist who’s population he was going to displace or enslave.
As I previously mentioned Poland went on to essentially sabotage any attempt at Soviet military guarantees for the neighbors of Germany against Hitler, including Poland itself. After 5 years of futile attempts at establishing such an alliance, and Polish refusal for cooperation, the Soviets gave up and conceded that German expansion was now inevitable including into Poland and eventually the USSR.
They were faced with three scenarios:
Germany takes all of Poland and it’s resources, and is that much closer to Moscow following the annexation. Poland is split between the USSR and they gain a buffer against the inevitable war with Germany in the future, while also reclaiming millions of Belarusian citizens who were lost in the Soviet Polish war, and denying resources to Germany, as well as the opportunity to reclaim other territory lost in the Russian civil war (Romania, Baltics and Finland). The Soviets immediately engage the German army after it is done fighting Poland, likely ensuing in a prolonged military conflict in which England and France will do nothing help the USSR, following years of conflict and millions of dead, England and France will finish off Germany, occupy it and the USSR will get nothing except casualties. It should be obvious that choice was barely a choice at all, there never was any option to help Poland against Germany, and frankly in the 1930s it’s hard to find a less competent and more deluded foreign policy than the Polish one, I don’t think there is an outcome which was possible at the time, which could have been worse than the one the Polish chose. They wanted to not fully ally with any of their neighbors, Piłsudski is quoted as saying: “Not with Moscow or Berlin, but above Moscow and Berlin.” I.e. we won’t make friends with anyone, we’ll make enemies of everyone.
I cannot reiterate this enough, they still chose to be more friendly and approachable with the guy who wrote a book about how he was going to kill them and destroy their nation. Polish foreign minister Józef Beck said “With Germany we risk our lives; with Russia we risk our soul.” What they meant with this was that the dirty communists might repress the catholic church, which was of course far worse than the Nazis killing everyone in your country, provided you’re the worst politician in the 1930s.

I really can't blame the Soviets. Chamberlain was a jerk, he thought the Soviets posed a greater threat than the Nazis, and that was why Britain allowed the German Reich to annex Austria and the Sudetenland.
Soviets tried to form a coalition against the nazis, they failed, and then they were like "Oh really? Taste your own medicine!" and made agreement with Berlin and Tokyo and really caused unrest in London and Paris.
Exactly. Moreover, when you remember how England forced France to abandon Spain to Franco's forces...
This
This so much this
https://preview.redd.it/4athi3r7rx8g1.jpeg?width=187&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ee355cc67deee7e9d71fd861f8ce95eee705dc0
what are we to make of the Soviet government's deportation of huge numbers of Poles to labor camps? I am sincerely asking you as a socialist who likes the impulse of the Bolshevik revolution but is disturbed by Stalinism.
That's the thing I never really get with Tankie defenders arguing about the USSR's involvement in invading poland. They say "Oh, the west hated the ussr and refused an alliance that could have stopped the Germans in 1938!" When at the same time, these same Tankies say "Oh, the USSR allied with the nazis because stalin was buying time get their forces ready, they would have been crushed in 1939!"
Which is it?! Did the ussr have the resorces to enter the war earlier or not?! Also how is this not equally bad as what the allies did? Even if you accept the claim that it was intentional, isn't the intentional carving up of poland equally as bad, and somewhat more abhorrent as the allies finally got their act together and went to war, the thing that the USSR should have wanted?
What? You yourself explained it logically and you don't get it? The USSR tried to organise other nations to oppose Nazi Germany. Because other nations preferred Nazi Germany over communist USSR, they all refused leaving the latter relatively isolated. Through economic pressur and a rising threat from Germany, the USSR needed to secure it's future and trade, resulting in pacts with the only nation of Europe to actively agree to them - Nazi Germany.
It's a direct result of allies not wanting the USSR to exist and having less issues with fascism than communism that led the USSR to have economic difficulty. It's also why the USSR had to seek nonaggression with Germany despite knowing it wouldn't last. It's also also why they sought a buffer zone against the inevitable German attack. All of these are linked and it isn't a difficult chain of events to follow.
As for what's equally bad and what isn't. Shit isn't black and white. The reasons for stuff happening are different. Invading Poland to form a buffer against Germany isn't all too different to Poland having an agreement with Germany and invading Czechoslovakia to gain some lands for themselves. The western allies letting Germany get stronger in the hope that they'll go and destroy the USSR on the other hand is a tacit support for a major war that the allies massively misjudged and had to become involved in.
Man. I'm not even a communist. I can't be Tankie by definition.
If you didn't notice, world is not black and white. Nothing in this bloody world happens in vacuum. Soviets did X, because Germans did Y, because Brits did Z, because French did N, because... and so on and so on.
World is way more complicated than you think.
Thank you
What a nothing response
Most governments will act in their interest, soviets did try to unite western powers to fight against nazis, soviets wanted to aid Czechoslovakia and even defend poland, but the talks kept getting delayed on purpose or refused.
In ideal and perfect world soviets shouldnt have made any deals with nazis, but from soviet perspective both Uk and France were imperialists so was nazi Germany just one was more radical and organized.
You dont wanna lose geopolitical battle because theres probably an alternative reality where western countries aligned with nazis and destroyed ussr and we all speak german now.
So as far as im aware taking some polish land was a good idea plus having non aggression pact and let nazis and west destroy each other from certain way of looking was a strategic thing to do from soviet perspective.
“In an ideal world the Soviets shouldn’t have made any deal with the Nazis”
They made a non-aggression agreement long after everyone else did, to buy time to prepare for the inevitable invasion.
I agree with you. It wasnt the point i was trying to make.
I agree that the Soviets did what they had to do, its what I tried to explain. In the ideal world Soviets wouldnt or shouldnt have made any deals with any imperialists(West,Nazis). But the real world requires compromise and its perfectly understandable and justifiable.
Yeah i figured that out on the second read, sorry for not understanding you initially.
They tried everything before that. Unlike everyone else, many of whom signed agreements immediately.
They kinda had to. They were underprepared in terms of mechanized warfare and they’d exhausted their other options.
Eastern parts of Poland were not majority Polish, even after the fascist Polish government's policies of settling poles in the east. Those were Ukrainian and Belarussian majority areas, two nations which had sovereign republics in the USSR and were oppressed minorities in Poland.
https://preview.redd.it/i0chg75a3x8g1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5bfcabf3a021b44389d0598ff1090e8b393b6e4a
Ethnic map of the region. Not here to argue or anything, just though it would be interesting. I do agree though that the treatment of the minorities was abysmal, and I wish Międzymorze, a federation of states in between of Germany and USSR would have worked.
Not playing devils advocate, but since that textbook seems polish I would take it with a grain of Salt. Tho this still could very much be true.
I can't really see the date of this map, but if this is in 1938, then (as another comment pointed out) a lot of polish settlers would have already changed from those of 1920
Eastern Europe was really fucked up ethnicaly in that time. There was loterally no way of satisfying everyone. That's why I wish Międzymorze worked. Instead, We've got a multiethnic state ruled by those who wanted a monoethnic state. If only Międzymorze worked, and I mean actualy worked, and not just existed.
I can't really blame the Poles for not allowing the Soviets to cross. After all, We've had a tough history with Russia, and Czechoslovakia was considered a rival. As one commenter said said, each state will act in their interest.
Not to mention the whole abandoning the Warsaw Uprising to its fate and ignoring the exile government, and thus proving the Poles were correct not to trust them. And of course Molotov-Ribbentrop not only finished off the Poles, but allowed Germany to trade for resources to build up their war machine. Which arguably proves the Soviets were also dumb.
It was a potato republic (European banana republic) aligned with the west against Sovietism, and occupying its eastern half was the compromise after the failure of a united front and the advent of Chamberlain’s appeasement policy.
"We did an appeasement to destroy the appeasement!" -Stalin, probably
Poland was trying to recreate it's old empire during the Civil war. Went to war against a lot people and grabbed a lot of land. Then the Sanation regime happened which is just a fancy word for destroying non-polish language and culture. Poland also would try to expand by hoping of starting uprising in USSR and occupying land during that. They grabbed small bit of Czechoslovakia in 1938. They also had plans to grab rest of Lithuania and even southern Latvia.
Poland today is one of the most mono national states in Europe. And you don't get to be that without doing very unsavoury things
Isn't this perhaps the result of Stalin's own efforts to force Poles to move westward and displace Poles from the former eastern territories? It's hard for Poland to be multinational after that.
Which part ?
The ultimate goal was the creation of Międzymorze, but due to infighting that never emerged. Also antagonising our neighbourd didn't help all that much... Also, I have no idea where You got that expansion into Lithuania or Latvia. And the Czechoslovakia issue, them taking that land in 1919 was ok, but Poland taking it back in 1938 is a big no?
In 1938 Poland issues an ultimatum to Lithuania. Reunify the rzeczpospolita lands, and the crown lands go up to Riga almost.
And the Czechoslovakia issue, them taking that land in 1919 was ok, but Poland taking it back in 1938 is a big no? -- this logic goes a long way. And you will end up in some not very nice places.
Could I get a source on that first statement please?
And the second statement, imagine that I may have meant that the Zaolzie conflict was stupid, and neither side should have invaded. I'm not a nazi you know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Polish_ultimatum_to_Lithuania
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ultimatum
Sorry, but I fail to see any territorial demands in said ultimatum.
The ultimatum does not mention anything that you are arguing
Even if Polish diplomacy was a disaster, invading and partitioning a sovereign country alongside Nazi Germany was plain imperial aggression, full stop. If you excuse that because it created a “buffer” or served socialism, you’re using the same logic every empire uses. International law and basic morality don’t bend just because your ideology (or quasi-religion) is Marxism.
You mean Polish invasion in Czechoslovakia joining Hitler in 1938 based on Pilsudski pact? Ah yes, agree. Disgusting aggression.
That was taking advantage of the situation and those were minor lands were a plebiscite was supposed to be held in 1920, however the Czechoslovaks took advantage of the war with Soviets to take the land for themselves
And we forgot about Czechoslovakia grabbing this land from Poland in 1919? Btw region were majority polish
interwar Poland was a nationalist pseudo fascist shit hole. what soviets did to the polish state was the correct action.
They wanted to help Poland, and that is why they signed a secret protocol between Molotov and Ribbentrop to specify how Poland and other countries were to be divided?
Well, you pretty much described everything in text, nothing to add. Except you mentioned France which was already coquered at that point, so it wouldn't do anything.
But yeah, both Poland and France definetely got what they deserved. And I don't think either of them deserved liberation from USSR, but it is what it is.
So you want Poland to be occupied by the Nazis? Or am I misreading this?
No, I meant just like USSR stayed in Germany it should have stayed in Poland. Probably Poland would be even better. Because now they have their "independence" and they are still acting like pricks towards Russians. They definetely did not deserve to be liberated by USSR.
They did install a puppet regime
USSR? In Poland?
The USSR installed a puppet regime after the war, yes. Not to mention the land that was ceded to the Belorussian parts of the USSR.
Ok, I didn't know that. I assume it was later replaced by pro-western regime.
Anyway, it is what it is.
The puppet regime fell along with the USSR basically. And I don't think the current Polish government is being run by compete dicks diplomatically. I know they have pretty conservative policies domestically by European standards, but their diplomatic policy seems reasonable for a country in their position.
Ok.
But Poland was directly involved into government overthrow in Ukraine in 2013. I don't see how that benefits them or other European countries. Of course that means that you can buy raw materials cheap from Ukraine then make goods in your country and sell it back to Ukraine as well, which is kind of fun. But this political and social instability, civil war and hate towards Russia - did they really think that was worth it? Did they not see what it could lead to? USA couldn't care less about that, in fact they wanted this war, but Europe having war on their continent, Poland having war right next to them... I just don't understand why would they go with it. They only explanation I see that Europe is a "colony" of USA. USA says "jump", Europe says "how high?"
The war, the sanctions the social and political issues - Europe suffers more than other western world but still goes with it. It does not make any sense.
The Ukrainians overthrew their own government. And not having another a large Russian puppet government next them seems like a pretty obvious upside to having a Europe focused Ukraine.
I am honestly at a loss as to how you think you can contribute to a discussion on Poland without knowing about the polish occupation/puppet regime between 1945-1991, and "assuming" how the current regime occured.
Honestly, pass high school history or something before trying to contribute.
You really had to put the effort just to tell me this?:)
Well okay then:)
Poland had pact with Germany and invaded Czechoslovakia with Hitler. No mercy.
Non-aggression pact that did not include a secret clause to invade neighbors, Czechoslovakia was simply taking advantage of the situation
Even then, how does that justify what the Soviets did?
Lol. They conducted common military drills in Volyn together to be prepared for attacking east.
I can't find any evidence for what you're saying, so either you're just twisting actual history or you're just straight up pulling stuff out of your bum
You will find photos and materials if you go below vikipedia and chatgpt level. The issue is that post WW2 this obviously become extremely unpopular info for Poland and official established version was that they were just poor victim blaming everything on Germans. Well played.
Btw that collaboration was one of reasons why Poland fell so quickly in 1939. Germans had perfect knowledge of units, locations, ammo storages, fortified areas, airfields, callsigns, codes, directions, supply routes etc..
Well and a bit later over 400k poles joined wehrmacht as regulars including waffen SS as a bonus.
I literally cannot find any evidence, no matter where I look.
The Germans overran us easily because they had the technological advantage, our army was stretched thin and was mostly infantry based.
Also those Poles were forcefully conscripted and most of them, given the chance, ended up defecting to the Polish Armed Forces in the West where made up 35,8% of the armed forces in the west.
Alliance Poland with USSR will result exacly the same what happend historicaly to Poland, beacuse USSR will never let Poland be independent what Polish elites know. For Poland in that scenario only chance will be in something like operiation "unthinkable". But even with that Katyń will happen propably.
From political point of view sign prct with Germany and attack Poland was reasonable and good move.
But morally, well fight together with nazi, then sitting and watching them grow till they attack you is without a doubt bad. And funny when they make propaganda how they good are beacuse they fight with them.
If someone doesn't understand the difference between the USSR and Nazi Germany, congratulations – they won't be accepted into the army. The reason is the lack of square helmets.
Did you miss everything that came before the pact? It's all here in text.