Snapshot of A network of social media accounts posing as Scottish independence supporters has fallen silent once again, closely mirroring a fresh shutdown of internet access inside Iran. | UK Defence Journal (@UKDefJournal) on X submitted by SirRosstopher:
Putin fears ending up like Gaddafi and it’s a fear I’m sure we all hope he has to face one day, but I’m not sure his replacement will be any better for us.
It’s not characteristic of the Russians to accept a victor’s peace for longer than they have to, I suspect Putin’s replacement whoever he might be will be even more aggressive in his foreign policy. Conscripted troops returning home after a protracted war is also something that often contributes to destabilisation as well.
The Russians who left the country when they saw the writing on the wall were wiser than their countrymen left at home I think.
Medvedev is out for Medvedev. He was very pro-Europe when it suited him in about 2010. It's now more beneficial to be hostile to Europe. If the winds change, he ends up in power and the only way to hold that power is by cosying up to the west he will be making speeches about the need for reconciliation and building up relationships again.
It's obvious russia is heading for a civil war. At some point us along with other nations will have to step in to essentially buy off the people controlling their nukes to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.
It's that or essentially doing military operations inside russia as it's in the middle of a civil war to secure their nukes.
Putin fears ending up like Gaddafi and it’s a fear I’m sure we all hope he has to face one day, but I’m not sure his replacement will be any better for us.
Lets observe Venezuela and Iran and see what happens there. It will give us a good indicator how Russia will be post Putin era.
Syria still has ISIS issues and we've basically shaken hands with ex Al-Qaeda bossman
They won't. It is not Bots that are advocating against far-left policy. It is just the average brit finds them completely insane.
The only reason I think the far-right are concerningly tolerable at the moment is due to the logical steps to become far-right. It starts with anti-immigrantion rhetoric and ends with full blown racism.
The far-left on the otherhand has a starting point of being anti-capitalism, which is already very extreme to a lot of Brits.
Then you got Anti-NATO. Anti-trident rhetoric.
and also the open borders, globalism agenda.
To a lot of people, there are zero points of agreement with the far left.
In contrast, the right and the far-right transition, while extreme is still logical. They both have roughly the same end-goals but with extremely different methods of achieving it.
The foreign influencers had a good run with "Churchill is actually a terrible person!" for a while. It was gaining a lot of traction but seems it's mostly died out now as pushing Farage has become the choice of tactic to get the turkeys excited for Christmas.
Anti-capitalism isn't the starting point. Before that, you have disgruntlement with pay, conditions, the housing market, and public services. All of those can be cast as capitalism failing to provide a better standard of living if one is so inclined.
No they don’t, only in your little bubble. What is insane is allowing Eritrean men to move to UK, put them up in hotels, then work deliveroo or go on a crime spree while also following schoolgirls around and sexually assaulting them.
I somewhat agree, they definitely fall apart if any decent amount of scrutiny is conducted but I would argue there argument is still stronger than far-left ones.
For example the logic behind decreasing immigration to net-zero is quite simple.
Less immigration means less people. Less people means, lower need for new housing. Reduced pressure on public services, less competition in the job market etc
It is all very simplistic and easy to follow to the layman. However, once you start scrutinising and asking the question as to what happens when the the infinite population growth model collapses. What happens when there is no one to pay for pensions. etc. The argument for zero immigration falls apart.
On the otherhand you got Far-left answers.
Remove Trident - Logic being that nuclear bombs are bad. The problem is that even the layman understands that while nuclear bombs are bad, they are needed.
Same with capitalism.
Same with Nato.
Same with Borders.
The Far-left are Idealists in the worst form. Incapable of separating their Idealism from Realism.
If they could, I would probably become a far-left advocate.
as to what happens when the the infinite population growth model collapses. What happens when there is no one to pay for pensions. etc. The argument for zero immigration falls apart.
Isn't... Isn't immigration the infinite growth model? Everyone knows it's a scam to make some artificial numbers go up, it doesn't actually help pay for pensions.
You can't be reliant on a scam... It's a scam. It doesn't pay for anything, it doesn't help anybody, it doesn't do anything.
We had plenty of immigration. Gdp per capita stayed flat. It's useless. It's less than useless, it's lowering wages and inflating house prices for no reason.
It is only stronger in the sense that it is easier for a layman to grasp, but I don't think we should describe that as a strong argument, rather than as an convincing argument, and even then that might be assigning the arguments as having too much value.
Also, there is more to the left's call for abolishing trident than just nukes are bad. The arguments include that the cost of maintaining such a deterrent is a waste of money compared to other alternative options such as using foreign aid as soft power.
You have just stated that they are needed as if it is an undeniable fact without backing any of it with any evidence.
The same with Capitalism, Nato, and borders. All of those have valid arguments against, you don't just get to decide that all of those arguments are junk because you have decided that they are 'needed'
I am not saying that I agree with any of these particular left wing arguments, but I don't discard them out of hand either.
You have just proven my point beautifully in demonstrating the Far-left can't separate their idealism from Realism.
"Also, there is more to the left's call for abolishing trident than just nukes are bad. The arguments include that the cost of maintaining such a deterrent is a waste of money compared to other alternative options such as using foreign aid as soft power."
No amount of soft-power would have deterred Putin from invading Ukraine. You know what would have? Nukes.
Soft-power is not an alternative to a nuclear deterrent, that is a naive and misguided belief.
If I didn't have to go to sleep in a couple of minutes, I would love to go into detail why you are being idealistic. Yes Capitalism, Nato, Borders etc all have very valid critques against them but they are still the current best option we have got with the resources available to us and the current state of the world.
It reminds me of what Winston said about Democracy.
"‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’"
Nukes. Nato. Borders. Capitalism.
We live in a world where all of these are still very much needed.
You are assuming that I hold these ideas. I haven't said one way or another. I am simply pointing out that you can't dismiss the arguments out of hand by saying that it's just obvious.
How do you even know nukes would have kept Putin from invading? The west is clearly an ally to Ukraine and has nukes, so does the evidence not suggest that they aren't as much of a deterrent as you seem to think.
At least you have admitted that there are valid critiques against those views. That is a more reasonable position than you stated in your previous post.
To state that those options are currently the best we have as an axiom is itself naive, how can we actually know that? We might have dabbled in others, but have we actually committed to them? What if democracy isn't actually the best of the worst? I personally believe it is, but I don't just stop questioning whether another system might be better.
Try to look at your own idealism, you might be covering it up by calling it realism.
Well one of the most amazing things with USAID closing was just how many charities and activists groups were basically US paid state actors.
I really dont think enough has been made of that. Trump folded USAID and charities across the UK who have heavily lobbied government as well as with heavy influence in government and academia like Stone Wall are all suddenly basically broke.
That was, way, way more influence than a few social media accounts but because a lot of people happen to like those groups and like those messages, we just dont talk about which I find absolutely wild.
Yes and that's why people moaning about international development funding or aid payments are completely missing the point. It's a very cheap way to get influence in parts of the world where you are trying to get outcomes favourable to you.
I keep reminding people of this, but the 2017 US Congressional inquiry into the 2016 US election found that both prominent Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter accounts were controlled by Russia.
The literal goal was division, not pushing specific politics.
Then how do you know? Without numbers you're just going by your intuition, which in turn is affected by the echo chambers you frequent, and the algorithms that push content that gets you to respond to it. The same is true for anyone who doesn't have the numbers.
There are plenty of fake news stories spawned to appeal to the left that end up going viral, just the same as happens on the right.
My feed has bs being called out, but not the bs itself. The left do that more than the right, and certainly my feed is left.
Citation needed. I'll repeat, your anecdote is not data, and you cannot extrapolate your experiences to those of the wider population. Your very position that the left are somehow superior on this front is part of the BS spread by both sides, neatly illustrating the point.
That's honestly a good question and I don't have an answer. I think this is one of those issues that's vibes and circumstantial evidence all the way down, and neither of us can prove it.
Imagine being on the side of the far right populists and the embarassment of learning 90% of your “fellow” right wingers were actually just Russian bots
Thanks. I only ever opened a twitter account to publicly complain to Samsung about them losing my Galaxy S3 while in for repair[1] and used in similar ways to sparingly ever since.
Then they asked for my DoB etc (years ago now), I thought long and hard and then went "nah, fuck them, I don't want to give them any more of my personal information" and my account has been locked out ever since.
It's no great loss but occasionally annoying when people post links.
[1] And as a helpful but unrelated hint, if ever a retailer tells you to go direct to the manufacturer under their warranty beware that you have zero legal protection and no one to turn to if things go wrong. If at all possible insist that the retailer sends it for repair as you are then legally protected (and they are obliged to).
Exactly, the thing that’s forgotten with Russian interference is that they don’t care what they push as long as it creates opposition, half of the arguments are probably between different agents.
I remember that during the 2020 (I think) election, there was a report on Channel 4 where they uncovered evidence of foreign actors setting up Facebook groups both for/against Donald Trump, and BLM, or gun control.
If you live in a divided society, then don’t be surprised if it’s not just domestic actors who exploit that division.
In this specific case, there is a plausible reason for the Iranian government to want Scottish independence. An independent pacifist (as many pro-independence figures want) Scotland would open up the GIUK gap, which could help bring "death to America".
To be fair, there is an absurd amount of anti-English accounts on X with scottish flags in their bio. Always wondered if they were all actually Scottish or not.
Casual reminder that when Twitter put in that account location feature it revealed a LOT of meddling from all sorts, all across the globe.
Pro "Native American" accounts were being ran from Bangladesh, pro Scottish Independence accounts being ran from the Philippines, Pro-SAVE EVROPA accounts being ran from India, race baiting accounts being ran from Israel etc etc
I've personally started assuming that someone running an account dedicated to something specific is probably not being genuine.
A similar thing happened during the Wagner mutiny. A bunch of subreddits went quiet whilst the mutiny was underway and activity only picked up again once the mutiny ended. Makes you wonder what percentage of Reddit is actually real users.
Is there a wider look at this? I remember an internet outage in India or Pakistan had a similar effect on American white nationalist accounts. What happens during outages in UK, Turkey, Israel, Russia, North Korea?
The suspicious posts in the US about how they’ve kind of fucked their independence and wouldn’t it be good if Charlie came to sort their nonsense out tend to cease.
When Twitter had that thing a while back where it showed where accounts were based, it turned out a LOT of Irish “patriot” accounts were based in the UK.
Funny how a lot of people very passionate about both Irish nationalism and British unionism live in region that both sides think should rightfully be theirs.
Even if we want to go with that assumption in the most good faith of reasonings, it still ignores that a lot of these accounts don’t present themselves as such. You’ll see these accounts hyperfocusing on immigration issues in places that couldn’t be further away from N.Ireland if they tried. They aren’t presenting themselves as Northern Irish, they’re presenting themselves very much as from Dublin and Cork etc.
I’d also say, having seen some of their “patriotic gatherings” in action, it’s not Northern accents that are prevalent either. There’s nearly always a few English accents driving these things, trying to stir up shit here for us.
It sort of does if you know how bad ISPs can be with getting the right country there.
Good Friday Agreement gives both countries access to each others TV, and its still quite a common problem that BBC iPlayer ends up blocking people from NI from being able to watch for having an Irish IP.
Wings Over Scotland, the original Cyber Nat, darling of the independence debate, probably at one point the single most influential non politician voice in the independence movement has lived in England since the 80's.
I'm sure that's just because Scotland is currently suffering under the heel of Westminster and he'd be back north of the border in a flash after independence.
Obviously because as soon as Westminster is overthrown the reason he left Scotland will simply disappear because Scotland will rightfully regain it's place as a checks notes computer game development superpower that those bastard English have been preventing.
Weirdly, all the endless spamming of every one of Rupert Lowe's thoughts vouchsafed to twitter also seems to have stopped 3 days ago. What a wild coincidence.
I don’t think I want Holyrood prowling through social media accounts to ban and block them for suspecting bot activity and they don’t have the power to do that anyway
You’d need the social media platforms themselves to do that, and good luck there
That’s not what I said. I said one of the reasons I’ve stopped voting SNP is because of their unwillingness to confront things like this. Most of the time they won’t even acknowledge the possibility that there is some nefarious foreign action supporting independence as a means of fomenting disunity.
But that’s not the only issue I’d put in that category. They have a had a tendency to not acknowledge any problems or problematic questions.
Whereas before, if they were asked “to achieve X, how would we get passed a particular hurdle” and they’d make an attempt at answering it. Now, they rely almost entirely on “Westminster bad, snp is Scotland’s voice” rather than actually having a practical suggestion on something.
I’m still pro-independence, but the actual independence movement led by the SNP has sadly gone from a movement which had a go at the tough questions and didn’t shy away from acknowledging things that would be tough if we won independence, to now being effectively a protest movement, that turns everything into a “stay on message” non-answer, and lurches from “de-facto referendum” to “de-facto referendum”, which would be the dumbest possible way of doing things besides unilaterally declaring independence.
I’m not saying they should be shutting these accounts down as a government, I’m saying they need to start acknowledging that foreign groups/governments which don’t have the UK’s or Scotland’s best interests at heart are pushing independence via social media and propaganda because it helps to keep a contentious issue alive. It doesn’t mean Independence is wrong, but refusing to acknowledge outside influences just makes them seem like they’re burying their heads in the sand.
If they’re so sure that support for Scottish independence won’t drop if they find and shut down all the foreign influence accounts and bots on social media, why not do it
Again, how do you suggest they shut them down?
And then you have to realise that the independence movement encompasses far more than just the SNP. The SNP don't get to choose who identifies with the movement.
These Russian/Iranian/etc accounts are working both sides. They want to rile everyone up so we're arguing with each other. The more discontent they sow, the less attention we're paying to the stuff they're doing. The less trust we have in our governments, the less power our governments have.
The Scottish Government doesn’t have legal powers over broadcasting, media/press or digital legislation - how do you suppose big John Swinney goes about dismantling online bot nets?
The next set of executions is scheduled to be in 48 hours. Families are being forced to pay $5,000 to receive the bodies of loved ones murdered by the regime. This is happening under a total media blackout. Be our voice. Share this. Silence is what they rely on.
I’ve always been more pro-online-free-speech than the average voter. But something legitimately needs to be done, be it by governments or corporations, to stop foreign actors from influencing social media. I don’t think it’s free speech if it’s bot farms trying to divide the country.
Woah that can't be right, Reddit told me that only Reform benefits from botting and troll farms and any progressive, left wing, engagement is all genuine and organic.
They are both monumentally stupid for many of the same reasons and both share many of the same stupid talking points. They are also both completely delusional.
Is it? I’d say it’s generic geopolitical disruption rather than partisan.
At any rate I’m all for self-determination; in the abstract I support independence for anyone who clearly votes for it in a legitimate vote, but I feel a legitimate vote is virtually impossible at the moment.
I don’t mind because people can vote for what they want, I just find it funny when there’s panic about reform when you look at what the left wing partys want
What is commonly stated is that bots are fanning the flames of any debate with the potential to sow discord, playing all sides against each other because an enemy divided amongst itself, is weak.
The Russian regime is also absolutely supporting Reform and at this point, denial is wilful ignorance.
Fact is that if there’s any radical belief with unusually high amounts of support on social media, it’s probably botted. Especially if all those accounts are really antagonistic and aggressive.
TBF I imagine that the state has probably turned off a few bits of their own infrastructure by mistake, your troll factory being tied to state IP addresses is a bit obvious to opposing security services. It's not like this shutdown was well planned.
We had academic analysis of external influence duringthe referendum and it was clear the likes of Russia and Iran were playing both sides as is expected from anyone following the Surkovian playbook.
They seem to have been using quite crude methods to cut off the internet
They disabled starlink through GPS jamming, and it’s entirely possible that some of the people working in those troll farms are now out protesting against the regime
State sponsored =/= state run. You need plausible deniability in general, and want bots to be as annoying and difficult to detect as possible which is achieved by making them look like normal traffic.
The next set of executions is scheduled to be in 48 hours. 12,000 people have been killed, according to confirmed civilian reports.
This regime’s foundation is based on violence.
Families are being forced to pay $5,000 to receive the bodies of loved ones murdered by the regime. This is happening under a total media blackout. If Iran is free, the world benefits, us Iranians have been yelling this out for decades. Be our voice.
Share this. Silence is what kills.
Here’s an idea, maybe the UK should stop meddling in Iranian politics on Washington’s behalf?
Why are we even involved? We literally spend millions trying to infiltrate their internal politics and then act surprised when they try to undermine us in return. I’m of Iranian heritage and I have no illusions about how awful the regime is, but time to face reality, they’re not going anytime soon. They’ve been trying to topple it since 1979, it hasn’t worked. Obama and the EU signed a nuclear peace deal, everyone was happy. Oh suddenly we need to pull out and put crippling sanctions back on because Trump and Israel said they want nothing short of regime change.
We need stability in the region and compromises need to be made. Europe needs to face reality and understand the forever wars have benefited us zero. We don’t have a huge Atlantic Ocean shielding us from fall out. Iran has a population of 80 million people and is a relatively stable country, war in that country will make the Syrian refugee crisis look like a walk in the park.
Here’s an idea, maybe the UK should stop meddling in Iranian politics on Washington’s behalf?
Why are we even involved? We literally spend millions trying to infiltrate their internal politics and then act surprised when they try to undermine us in return.
Are we? Do you have any sources that I could read up on this please?
British spy agencies have a long history of meddling in Iran, with everything from covert influence operations, to secretly selling chemical weapons materials to the regime.
In one case, the UK spy agency GCHQ even created a network of fake Twitter accounts to secretly monitor Iranian opposition activists – the very people working to remove supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei from power.
Documents leaked by Edward Snowden show how JTRIG targeted the “general population” of Iran between at least 2009 and 2011. Its work included “discrediting the Iranian leadership and its nuclear programme”, causing disruption to the nuclear programme, conducting human intelligence operations online, and counter-censorship campaigns.
A report from 2011 explains: “JTRIG staff use a range of techniques to, for example, discredit, disrupt, delay, deny, degrade, and deter.
Do you have any other sources, given Declassified UK aren't exactly the most unbiased, and frequently spread misinformation and incorrect facts (and yes, this is true).
The Iranian regime are one of the main drivers of instability.
We of course should be careful and measured in what we do and should work in the best interests of the Iranian people (which ultimately will lead to a much better outcome for us), failing in those measures is partly what led to where they are. But to just sit back and say we don't care what goes on will eventually come to hurt us badly.
When you pursue a path of no compromise and full capitulation, peace is out of the question and you invite war.
Why did Trump pull out of the nuclear deal? Iran was following the treaty and took all the necessary steps, it took forever to negotiate and Irans economy was beginning to recover, then suddenly Trump wins and pulls out, even the EU was frustrated to see the deal reneged. Why?
The collapse of the nuclear deal was definitely a negative, it was a tolerable solution and in the absence of an alternative government (something that remains one of the biggest blocks against the protests succeeding) was the best solution that could be found at the time.
We are no longer, however, in 2017; the deal is long dead. We can lament that Trump killed it and wonder where we may be if he hadn't but we now need to look for what solutions work best with the current very different situation.
Trump pulled out back in his first term, then Biden spent 4 years trying to get Iran back onto the deal and they basically told him to stuff it. In any case, any chance of a new deal died on Oct 7th. Iran knew it, that's why they did those 2 big missile attacks earlier, as a deterrence against an Israeli attack.
When the islamic regime falls in Iran the world will be a better place. Do you not recall the news of Iranian sleeper agents that were arrested in the UK for planning a terror attack
Why are we even involved? We literally spend millions trying to infiltrate their internal politics and then act surprised when they try to undermine us in return.
Any source on this? Obviously aware we were meddling pretty heavily in the 50s but wasn't aware of anything post-revolution.
British spy agencies have a long history of meddling in Iran, with everything from covert influence operations, to secretly selling chemical weapons materials to the regime.
In one case, the UK spy agency GCHQ even created a network of fake Twitter accounts to secretly monitor Iranian opposition activists – the very people working to remove supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei from power.
Documents leaked by Edward Snowden show how JTRIG targeted the “general population” of Iran between at least 2009 and 2011. Its work included “discrediting the Iranian leadership and its nuclear programme”, causing disruption to the nuclear programme, conducting human intelligence operations online, and counter-censorship campaigns.
A report from 2011 explains: “JTRIG staff use a range of techniques to, for example, discredit, disrupt, delay, deny, degrade, and deter.
Snapshot of A network of social media accounts posing as Scottish independence supporters has fallen silent once again, closely mirroring a fresh shutdown of internet access inside Iran. | UK Defence Journal (@UKDefJournal) on X submitted by SirRosstopher:
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When the Putin regime finally collapses, it'll be really funny to find out just how many social media accounts were Russian bots all along.
Let's hope both fall soon
Putin fears ending up like Gaddafi and it’s a fear I’m sure we all hope he has to face one day, but I’m not sure his replacement will be any better for us.
It’s not characteristic of the Russians to accept a victor’s peace for longer than they have to, I suspect Putin’s replacement whoever he might be will be even more aggressive in his foreign policy. Conscripted troops returning home after a protracted war is also something that often contributes to destabilisation as well.
The Russians who left the country when they saw the writing on the wall were wiser than their countrymen left at home I think.
I think the one thing that's virtually guaranteed at this point is that if Putin drops dead tomorrow it's going to be a shitshow.
There is no obvious successor, because anyone who is an obvious successor finds that they fall out of a window eventually.
Throw a vacated kleptocracy in amongst a bunch of oligarchs and watch them fight to the death over it.
Medvedev's the only obvious option, and he's more deranged than Putin
Thats his job. He has to be the attack dog against the west. Also hes not Prime Minister any more, thats now Mikhail Mishustin
Medvedev is out for Medvedev. He was very pro-Europe when it suited him in about 2010. It's now more beneficial to be hostile to Europe. If the winds change, he ends up in power and the only way to hold that power is by cosying up to the west he will be making speeches about the need for reconciliation and building up relationships again.
It's obvious russia is heading for a civil war. At some point us along with other nations will have to step in to essentially buy off the people controlling their nukes to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.
It's that or essentially doing military operations inside russia as it's in the middle of a civil war to secure their nukes.
No way that the aggressiveness increases.
He is the most aggressive leader since Hitler.
The next leader would spend 10 years trying to stabilise their position. Just like Putin did until the late 2000s.
Many Russians hate the clown show, that the Kremlin put on and wish to live in a serious country.
Lets observe Venezuela and Iran and see what happens there. It will give us a good indicator how Russia will be post Putin era.
Syria still has ISIS issues and we've basically shaken hands with ex Al-Qaeda bossman
Probably 90% of the far left and far right.
Yep. Plays both sides to stir the pot.
Disruptors ARE both sides, dragging the centre to each side causes unrest and that’s the point.
Putin's playing both sides, that way he always ends up on top.
NGL if Farage gets elected, I do wonder just how quickly some places will switch back to being 'far left' (or even just centrist).
They won't. It is not Bots that are advocating against far-left policy. It is just the average brit finds them completely insane.
The only reason I think the far-right are concerningly tolerable at the moment is due to the logical steps to become far-right. It starts with anti-immigrantion rhetoric and ends with full blown racism.
The far-left on the otherhand has a starting point of being anti-capitalism, which is already very extreme to a lot of Brits.
Then you got Anti-NATO. Anti-trident rhetoric.
and also the open borders, globalism agenda.
To a lot of people, there are zero points of agreement with the far left.
In contrast, the right and the far-right transition, while extreme is still logical. They both have roughly the same end-goals but with extremely different methods of achieving it.
The foreign influencers had a good run with "Churchill is actually a terrible person!" for a while. It was gaining a lot of traction but seems it's mostly died out now as pushing Farage has become the choice of tactic to get the turkeys excited for Christmas.
Anti-capitalism isn't the starting point. Before that, you have disgruntlement with pay, conditions, the housing market, and public services. All of those can be cast as capitalism failing to provide a better standard of living if one is so inclined.
No they don’t, only in your little bubble. What is insane is allowing Eritrean men to move to UK, put them up in hotels, then work deliveroo or go on a crime spree while also following schoolgirls around and sexually assaulting them.
The far right transition is enabled by providing an easy answer, not a logical one. If you actually apply logic every argument falls over.
I somewhat agree, they definitely fall apart if any decent amount of scrutiny is conducted but I would argue there argument is still stronger than far-left ones.
For example the logic behind decreasing immigration to net-zero is quite simple.
Less immigration means less people. Less people means, lower need for new housing. Reduced pressure on public services, less competition in the job market etc
It is all very simplistic and easy to follow to the layman. However, once you start scrutinising and asking the question as to what happens when the the infinite population growth model collapses. What happens when there is no one to pay for pensions. etc. The argument for zero immigration falls apart.
On the otherhand you got Far-left answers.
Remove Trident - Logic being that nuclear bombs are bad. The problem is that even the layman understands that while nuclear bombs are bad, they are needed.
Same with capitalism.
Same with Nato.
Same with Borders.
The Far-left are Idealists in the worst form. Incapable of separating their Idealism from Realism.
If they could, I would probably become a far-left advocate.
Isn't... Isn't immigration the infinite growth model? Everyone knows it's a scam to make some artificial numbers go up, it doesn't actually help pay for pensions.
We are using immigration to sustain the infinite population growth model because we are not having enough babies.
I definitely think we should move away from this model in the long-term but in the short term we are incredibly reliant on it.
You can't be reliant on a scam... It's a scam. It doesn't pay for anything, it doesn't help anybody, it doesn't do anything.
We had plenty of immigration. Gdp per capita stayed flat. It's useless. It's less than useless, it's lowering wages and inflating house prices for no reason.
It is only stronger in the sense that it is easier for a layman to grasp, but I don't think we should describe that as a strong argument, rather than as an convincing argument, and even then that might be assigning the arguments as having too much value.
Also, there is more to the left's call for abolishing trident than just nukes are bad. The arguments include that the cost of maintaining such a deterrent is a waste of money compared to other alternative options such as using foreign aid as soft power.
You have just stated that they are needed as if it is an undeniable fact without backing any of it with any evidence.
The same with Capitalism, Nato, and borders. All of those have valid arguments against, you don't just get to decide that all of those arguments are junk because you have decided that they are 'needed'
I am not saying that I agree with any of these particular left wing arguments, but I don't discard them out of hand either.
You have just proven my point beautifully in demonstrating the Far-left can't separate their idealism from Realism.
"Also, there is more to the left's call for abolishing trident than just nukes are bad. The arguments include that the cost of maintaining such a deterrent is a waste of money compared to other alternative options such as using foreign aid as soft power."
No amount of soft-power would have deterred Putin from invading Ukraine. You know what would have? Nukes.
Soft-power is not an alternative to a nuclear deterrent, that is a naive and misguided belief.
If I didn't have to go to sleep in a couple of minutes, I would love to go into detail why you are being idealistic. Yes Capitalism, Nato, Borders etc all have very valid critques against them but they are still the current best option we have got with the resources available to us and the current state of the world.
It reminds me of what Winston said about Democracy.
"‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’"
Nukes. Nato. Borders. Capitalism.
We live in a world where all of these are still very much needed.
You are assuming that I hold these ideas. I haven't said one way or another. I am simply pointing out that you can't dismiss the arguments out of hand by saying that it's just obvious.
How do you even know nukes would have kept Putin from invading? The west is clearly an ally to Ukraine and has nukes, so does the evidence not suggest that they aren't as much of a deterrent as you seem to think.
At least you have admitted that there are valid critiques against those views. That is a more reasonable position than you stated in your previous post.
To state that those options are currently the best we have as an axiom is itself naive, how can we actually know that? We might have dabbled in others, but have we actually committed to them? What if democracy isn't actually the best of the worst? I personally believe it is, but I don't just stop questioning whether another system might be better.
Try to look at your own idealism, you might be covering it up by calling it realism.
And a fair few of the "they're all as bad as eachother" bigade.
Well one of the most amazing things with USAID closing was just how many charities and activists groups were basically US paid state actors.
I really dont think enough has been made of that. Trump folded USAID and charities across the UK who have heavily lobbied government as well as with heavy influence in government and academia like Stone Wall are all suddenly basically broke.
That was, way, way more influence than a few social media accounts but because a lot of people happen to like those groups and like those messages, we just dont talk about which I find absolutely wild.
I'm aware of the Stonewall example, but what others were there?
Yes and that's why people moaning about international development funding or aid payments are completely missing the point. It's a very cheap way to get influence in parts of the world where you are trying to get outcomes favourable to you.
This presupposed you broadly agree with what's being funded.
It also pre supposes your target is dumb enough to literally invite your propaganda arm to audit your government and university hiring practices.
Nothing to do with the collapsing UK economy and the pervasive poverty sweeping society.
Its all a conspiracy. Lol
Don't be a doomer. The UK isn't collapsing.
I keep reminding people of this, but the 2017 US Congressional inquiry into the 2016 US election found that both prominent Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter accounts were controlled by Russia.
The literal goal was division, not pushing specific politics.
Obviously there's going to be a ton on the far right, but it will be interesting to see how many people pretend the far left ones never existed.
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Then how do you know? Without numbers you're just going by your intuition, which in turn is affected by the echo chambers you frequent, and the algorithms that push content that gets you to respond to it. The same is true for anyone who doesn't have the numbers.
There are plenty of fake news stories spawned to appeal to the left that end up going viral, just the same as happens on the right.
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Citation needed. I'll repeat, your anecdote is not data, and you cannot extrapolate your experiences to those of the wider population. Your very position that the left are somehow superior on this front is part of the BS spread by both sides, neatly illustrating the point.
> the fake right is much larger than the fake left.
I honestly don't know that's true at all, the right is much more talked about but I'm not convinced it's actually larger.
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That's honestly a good question and I don't have an answer. I think this is one of those issues that's vibes and circumstantial evidence all the way down, and neither of us can prove it.
I think the fake left is more acceptable, not less numerous.
It shouldn't be. But it is.
"MY side doesn't do propaganda, only THEY are stupid enough to fall for it"
Russian disinfo targets both seides equally and to be honest has way longer links to the far left through the KGB then the far right.
It's everywhere, if you're not seeing it as much on your side it's because you're agreeing with it.
Most likely less than half the bots are. China and the US almost certainly engage in these tactics too, it would be stupid not to
Imagine being on the side of the far right populists and the embarassment of learning 90% of your “fellow” right wingers were actually just Russian bots
Yup!
да, твое право
https://xcancel.com/UKDefJournal/status/2010473051960316028
Alternative link for those of us not interested in maintaining a Twitter account.
Thanks. I only ever opened a twitter account to publicly complain to Samsung about them losing my Galaxy S3 while in for repair[1] and used in similar ways to sparingly ever since.
Then they asked for my DoB etc (years ago now), I thought long and hard and then went "nah, fuck them, I don't want to give them any more of my personal information" and my account has been locked out ever since.
It's no great loss but occasionally annoying when people post links.
[1] And as a helpful but unrelated hint, if ever a retailer tells you to go direct to the manufacturer under their warranty beware that you have zero legal protection and no one to turn to if things go wrong. If at all possible insist that the retailer sends it for repair as you are then legally protected (and they are obliged to).
Here's the actual article the tweet links to https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/iranian-linked-scottish-accounts-fall-silent-again/
For those saying its a left wing aim etc
I dont think this is about this.
This is purely division and destabilising
Exactly, the thing that’s forgotten with Russian interference is that they don’t care what they push as long as it creates opposition, half of the arguments are probably between different agents.
I remember that during the 2020 (I think) election, there was a report on Channel 4 where they uncovered evidence of foreign actors setting up Facebook groups both for/against Donald Trump, and BLM, or gun control.
If you live in a divided society, then don’t be surprised if it’s not just domestic actors who exploit that division.
People need to watch/rewatch Adam Curtis's Hypernormalisation. It's exactly this - 'flood the zone'.
In this specific case, there is a plausible reason for the Iranian government to want Scottish independence. An independent pacifist (as many pro-independence figures want) Scotland would open up the GIUK gap, which could help bring "death to America".
To be fair, there is an absurd amount of anti-English accounts on X with scottish flags in their bio. Always wondered if they were all actually Scottish or not.
Casual reminder that when Twitter put in that account location feature it revealed a LOT of meddling from all sorts, all across the globe.
Pro "Native American" accounts were being ran from Bangladesh, pro Scottish Independence accounts being ran from the Philippines, Pro-SAVE EVROPA accounts being ran from India, race baiting accounts being ran from Israel etc etc
I've personally started assuming that someone running an account dedicated to something specific is probably not being genuine.
A similar thing happened during the Wagner mutiny. A bunch of subreddits went quiet whilst the mutiny was underway and activity only picked up again once the mutiny ended. Makes you wonder what percentage of Reddit is actually real users.
Is there a wider look at this? I remember an internet outage in India or Pakistan had a similar effect on American white nationalist accounts. What happens during outages in UK, Turkey, Israel, Russia, North Korea?
"What happens during outages in UK..."
There are fewer posts on Australian social media about how England is a cricketing powerhouse.
We all need a hobby
And a drink
I remember there was a bit of national shame over the racist abuse directed at Saka, Rashford and Sancho after the Euro 2020 final loss
But then it was later determined that the vast majority of it came from outside the UK
Yep, all but a tiny handful were Asian bettors losing their bets and throwing racist abuse.
Technically all those comments from Spain are still our problem.
The suspicious posts in the US about how they’ve kind of fucked their independence and wouldn’t it be good if Charlie came to sort their nonsense out tend to cease.
"What happens during outages in UK..."
There are fewer posts about the weather, tea and rose gardens, and those bloody Brits who refuse to queue.
When Twitter had that thing a while back where it showed where accounts were based, it turned out a LOT of Irish “patriot” accounts were based in the UK.
I mean, that doesn't really say much considering Northern Ireland is a part of the UK.
Funny how a lot of people very passionate about both Irish nationalism and British unionism live in region that both sides think should rightfully be theirs.
Even if we want to go with that assumption in the most good faith of reasonings, it still ignores that a lot of these accounts don’t present themselves as such. You’ll see these accounts hyperfocusing on immigration issues in places that couldn’t be further away from N.Ireland if they tried. They aren’t presenting themselves as Northern Irish, they’re presenting themselves very much as from Dublin and Cork etc.
I’d also say, having seen some of their “patriotic gatherings” in action, it’s not Northern accents that are prevalent either. There’s nearly always a few English accents driving these things, trying to stir up shit here for us.
It sort of does if you know how bad ISPs can be with getting the right country there.
Good Friday Agreement gives both countries access to each others TV, and its still quite a common problem that BBC iPlayer ends up blocking people from NI from being able to watch for having an Irish IP.
Is it really though?
Wings Over Scotland, the original Cyber Nat, darling of the independence debate, probably at one point the single most influential non politician voice in the independence movement has lived in England since the 80's.
I'm sure that's just because Scotland is currently suffering under the heel of Westminster and he'd be back north of the border in a flash after independence.
Obviously because as soon as Westminster is overthrown the reason he left Scotland will simply disappear because Scotland will rightfully regain it's place as a checks notes computer game development superpower that those bastard English have been preventing.
He’s not been involved in game dev or game mags for years as far as I know
He lived in Bath and worked at future publishing on a number of computer magazines.
Weirdly, all the endless spamming of every one of Rupert Lowe's thoughts vouchsafed to twitter also seems to have stopped 3 days ago. What a wild coincidence.
I can fill in, if you want.
BREAKING: RUPERT LOWE IS TAKING A SHIT.
BREAKING: RUPERT LOWE IS WIPING HIS ARSE.
BREAKING: RUPERT LOWE HAS FORGOTTEN TO WASH HIS HANDS.
Eh. that always goes through swings.
I was thinking today a lot of the more distasteful cybernat / far left usal propaganda went quiet when Iran's internet went dark.
I don't think it's a coincidence.
Has any similar analysis been done of Welsh independence pushing accounts?
Never seen any evidence to suggest a link, but seems like it would be odd for them not to be boosting the cause in the same way.
Luckily for us they have no idea we exist
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I don’t think I want Holyrood prowling through social media accounts to ban and block them for suspecting bot activity and they don’t have the power to do that anyway
You’d need the social media platforms themselves to do that, and good luck there
You voted SNP but stopped partly because they haven't shut down the social media accounts of pro-indy bots based abroad? What laws would allow it?
That’s not what I said. I said one of the reasons I’ve stopped voting SNP is because of their unwillingness to confront things like this. Most of the time they won’t even acknowledge the possibility that there is some nefarious foreign action supporting independence as a means of fomenting disunity.
But that’s not the only issue I’d put in that category. They have a had a tendency to not acknowledge any problems or problematic questions.
Whereas before, if they were asked “to achieve X, how would we get passed a particular hurdle” and they’d make an attempt at answering it. Now, they rely almost entirely on “Westminster bad, snp is Scotland’s voice” rather than actually having a practical suggestion on something.
I’m still pro-independence, but the actual independence movement led by the SNP has sadly gone from a movement which had a go at the tough questions and didn’t shy away from acknowledging things that would be tough if we won independence, to now being effectively a protest movement, that turns everything into a “stay on message” non-answer, and lurches from “de-facto referendum” to “de-facto referendum”, which would be the dumbest possible way of doing things besides unilaterally declaring independence.
I’m not saying they should be shutting these accounts down as a government, I’m saying they need to start acknowledging that foreign groups/governments which don’t have the UK’s or Scotland’s best interests at heart are pushing independence via social media and propaganda because it helps to keep a contentious issue alive. It doesn’t mean Independence is wrong, but refusing to acknowledge outside influences just makes them seem like they’re burying their heads in the sand.
Again, how do you suggest they shut them down?
And then you have to realise that the independence movement encompasses far more than just the SNP. The SNP don't get to choose who identifies with the movement.
These Russian/Iranian/etc accounts are working both sides. They want to rile everyone up so we're arguing with each other. The more discontent they sow, the less attention we're paying to the stuff they're doing. The less trust we have in our governments, the less power our governments have.
The Scottish Government doesn’t have legal powers over broadcasting, media/press or digital legislation - how do you suppose big John Swinney goes about dismantling online bot nets?
The next set of executions is scheduled to be in 48 hours. Families are being forced to pay $5,000 to receive the bodies of loved ones murdered by the regime. This is happening under a total media blackout. Be our voice. Share this. Silence is what they rely on.
I’ve always been more pro-online-free-speech than the average voter. But something legitimately needs to be done, be it by governments or corporations, to stop foreign actors from influencing social media. I don’t think it’s free speech if it’s bot farms trying to divide the country.
Woah that can't be right, Reddit told me that only Reform benefits from botting and troll farms and any progressive, left wing, engagement is all genuine and organic.
Funny how leaving the EU is right wing hatred, but leaving the United Kingdom is justified Scottish freedom.
It's Nationalism for me, but not for Thee.
Nationalism and integral nationalism are different political ideologies.
They’re identical movements really, with the same motivations and goals. /s
They are both monumentally stupid for many of the same reasons and both share many of the same stupid talking points. They are also both completely delusional.
All the criticism of Brexit applies to Scotland as well, only more so
Yep!
Trying to break up the union is okay if you’re left wing
Is it? I’d say it’s generic geopolitical disruption rather than partisan.
At any rate I’m all for self-determination; in the abstract I support independence for anyone who clearly votes for it in a legitimate vote, but I feel a legitimate vote is virtually impossible at the moment.
I don’t mind because people can vote for what they want, I just find it funny when there’s panic about reform when you look at what the left wing partys want
What is commonly stated is that bots are fanning the flames of any debate with the potential to sow discord, playing all sides against each other because an enemy divided amongst itself, is weak.
The Russian regime is also absolutely supporting Reform and at this point, denial is wilful ignorance.
Fact is that if there’s any radical belief with unusually high amounts of support on social media, it’s probably botted. Especially if all those accounts are really antagonistic and aggressive.
You know if your enemies are begging for you to do something, you probably should not do it.
If it's state sponsored I don't see how turning off public internet would cause this? It''s not like the regime have disabled their own internet.
Also I'd be surprised if they aren't hosted in China anyway.
More likely, the guy running the programme is on a flight to Moscow.
TBF I imagine that the state has probably turned off a few bits of their own infrastructure by mistake, your troll factory being tied to state IP addresses is a bit obvious to opposing security services. It's not like this shutdown was well planned.
You're being lied to by British state proganda.
We had academic analysis of external influence duringthe referendum and it was clear the likes of Russia and Iran were playing both sides as is expected from anyone following the Surkovian playbook.
Usually the state sponsored activities aren't done through state internet. They would pay private third party individuals to manage it.
They seem to have been using quite crude methods to cut off the internet
They disabled starlink through GPS jamming, and it’s entirely possible that some of the people working in those troll farms are now out protesting against the regime
State sponsored =/= state run. You need plausible deniability in general, and want bots to be as annoying and difficult to detect as possible which is achieved by making them look like normal traffic.
because it's made up
I really do not understand why democractic governments do not do more to act against this side of social media.
The next set of executions is scheduled to be in 48 hours. 12,000 people have been killed, according to confirmed civilian reports. This regime’s foundation is based on violence. Families are being forced to pay $5,000 to receive the bodies of loved ones murdered by the regime. This is happening under a total media blackout. If Iran is free, the world benefits, us Iranians have been yelling this out for decades. Be our voice. Share this. Silence is what kills.
Oh my pro independence X account has also fallen silent. Elon won’t deal with grok creating and distributing kiddie porn so byyyyye.
A little bit of this, a little bit of that.
Can they do it for Wales too, please?
This must be the only useful thing Iranians have ever done.
Here’s an idea, maybe the UK should stop meddling in Iranian politics on Washington’s behalf?
Why are we even involved? We literally spend millions trying to infiltrate their internal politics and then act surprised when they try to undermine us in return. I’m of Iranian heritage and I have no illusions about how awful the regime is, but time to face reality, they’re not going anytime soon. They’ve been trying to topple it since 1979, it hasn’t worked. Obama and the EU signed a nuclear peace deal, everyone was happy. Oh suddenly we need to pull out and put crippling sanctions back on because Trump and Israel said they want nothing short of regime change.
We need stability in the region and compromises need to be made. Europe needs to face reality and understand the forever wars have benefited us zero. We don’t have a huge Atlantic Ocean shielding us from fall out. Iran has a population of 80 million people and is a relatively stable country, war in that country will make the Syrian refugee crisis look like a walk in the park.
Are we? Do you have any sources that I could read up on this please?
BRITAIN’S LONG HISTORY OF SPYING ON IRAN
Do you have any other sources, given Declassified UK aren't exactly the most unbiased, and frequently spread misinformation and incorrect facts (and yes, this is true).
The Iranian regime are one of the main drivers of instability.
We of course should be careful and measured in what we do and should work in the best interests of the Iranian people (which ultimately will lead to a much better outcome for us), failing in those measures is partly what led to where they are. But to just sit back and say we don't care what goes on will eventually come to hurt us badly.
When you pursue a path of no compromise and full capitulation, peace is out of the question and you invite war.
Why did Trump pull out of the nuclear deal? Iran was following the treaty and took all the necessary steps, it took forever to negotiate and Irans economy was beginning to recover, then suddenly Trump wins and pulls out, even the EU was frustrated to see the deal reneged. Why?
The collapse of the nuclear deal was definitely a negative, it was a tolerable solution and in the absence of an alternative government (something that remains one of the biggest blocks against the protests succeeding) was the best solution that could be found at the time.
We are no longer, however, in 2017; the deal is long dead. We can lament that Trump killed it and wonder where we may be if he hadn't but we now need to look for what solutions work best with the current very different situation.
Trump pulled out back in his first term, then Biden spent 4 years trying to get Iran back onto the deal and they basically told him to stuff it. In any case, any chance of a new deal died on Oct 7th. Iran knew it, that's why they did those 2 big missile attacks earlier, as a deterrence against an Israeli attack.
When the islamic regime falls in Iran the world will be a better place. Do you not recall the news of Iranian sleeper agents that were arrested in the UK for planning a terror attack
Any source on this? Obviously aware we were meddling pretty heavily in the 50s but wasn't aware of anything post-revolution.
BRITAIN’S LONG HISTORY OF SPYING ON IRAN
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