There's the one about people being too enmeshed in their own sphere of knowledge and unable to remember how little people outside the sphere know about the topic this one. There was a tumblr post about it some time later where they made it about Pokemon and the point they assume everyone knows is Garganacl so now my spouse and I refer to assumed familiarity as a Garganacl problem.
See I've been trying to get "Feldsparring" to catch on as a phrase ever since my high school academic team coach referenced this comic and showed it to me
It’s up there with not shaming someone for not having watched/read/experienced whatever it is and instead telling them that you’re so happy they get to experience the thing for the first time!
The previous sentence he said was "Animal abuse is wrong." (That's the specific thing he's telling the audience, and being glad he told the audience, but it's of course applicable for a lot).
I was really expecting a few more layers of tumblr irony where the first user revealed that they had contempt for the person in the drowned post because they themselves learned this concept from a far more high-brow and serious source, like the musical Les Misérables.
I didn't think about how someone might learn about this from fiction, but you're probably going to read children's novels before you learn about the Holocaust so I guess it makes sense.
I mean, that would be fine, if that was all it'd be perfect because I also believe kids should be allowed to read anything they can read and want to read.
The problem comes in when you're recommending Leon Uris and James Clavell to your ten-year-old 🤣
Ngl I got some very weird ideas about what was edible from King Rat.
Shoutouts to the countless people who made weird psychological rpgmaker games for free, super in depth stories on tumblr, and a variety of other strange people who made stories with too much depth in them, many a year ago, I learned a lot of concepts from those. I still think about that post that described the process of breaking fingers as an effective method of torture. Absolutely horrifying, thank you.
internet horror is so special to me and if we lose the internet to censorship, as is becoming more likely, it’ll be the thing i mourn most. i’m a horror enthusiast so i’m biased but i truly believe some of the most beautiful stories ever told are horror stories
It’s something they teach you to be able to resist in special forces training in the USA. Part of it is breaking someone’s finger in a “safe manner” so people don’t break the first time
I still think about that post that described the process of breaking fingers as an effective method of torture.
You've piqued my curiosity. Although, I don't think anyone would need much convincing that finger-breaking is effective insofar as torture is effective.
You have ten fingers and I have as many questions.
Line from a weird Sherlock fanfiction called "L'instinct de l'equarisseur" (no idea what's it like in English).
The aforementioned line was later referred to by Sherlock saying "you tortured my man, and for what?" And I was like "oh yeah, that would qualify as torture." It just was just pressnted so casually (and I was a bit enamored with the character who did it) that I didn't make the connection.
If you needed me to tell you that, then I'm glad I told you that.
But I'm not glad that nobody else taught you that before me. Other people failed you
Similarly, it's frustrating when people dunk on kids for 'oh, you silly kid, you don't know what a dial phone is!'
Yeah, ok, if it's important to you, then fucking teach people. It's a shame no one else has done so before you got to them, but it's now on you to rectify that issue.
At work we have students come in to do intern-y type stuff, and more than a few, I've had to pull aside and say 'listen, bud, if you don't have pride in your work, you need to get yourself to a point where you do, because you MUST put your name on your drawings, etc' - it's fucking shitty that this hasn't been instilled in them before that point, but the minute I notice it, then it's my responsibility to at least tell them.
Tbh this is the same way sheltered queer kids with oppressive/conservative parents can first be introduced to affirming stories and characters and feelings that lets them know theyre ok.
Its not a gigabrain take to dunk on those people who have their entry point to queer identity/discrimination be some innocuous YA book with semi hidden or surface level representation/allegory instead of being taught or being allowed to consume out n proud queer media/stories. Same is true here.
It's not very surprising at all, actually - many parents limit or control what media their children consume. Whether rightfully or not is entirely dependent on their (or your) view, of course.
Usually it's because it raises uncomfortable questions or challenges viewpoints that shitty parents don't want to answer or defend.
That’s why the book bans have become so outrageous.
My mother bless her was a gifted elementary school teacher. She bought a bunch of those banned books and gifted them to our daughter. It’s shocking to read them and learn what’s in them that got them banned: basic human compassion.
The Rabbit Listened: it’s a simple story of a sad kid because their block castle fell down and animals come along trying to cheer them up. Bunnies want to hop away the sad, bears want to roar it away, they all advise something to do to make the pain go away. Then a rabbit comes and just listens to the kid talk about the nice thing they had that’s gone, and it helps.
….That books was banned. They are big brother, it’s not a joke.
I looked it up and can't find what backwards reason it's banned for. Like...surely the people who banned it aren't banning it for basic compassion, they have to have some fucked up logic. Do you happen to know what that would be because I'm legit curious.
My best guess is it's some religious wacko idea that thinks animals talking means they're demons or something.
Librarian here: There are a lot of people who believe that anthropomorphic animals are inherently harmful because they're not real and therefore contaminate children's ability to distinguish reality from fiction. It's not religious, more of a pedagogical theory that has been kicked around a while.
Shit, then I guess I can't "distinguish reality from fiction" because that was like all I read when I was a kid at will. I thought stories about human characters were boring...mostly? I loved Junie B Jones but things like Redwall were my jam.
The risk of not being able to distinguish reality from fiction is there but it's not because of talking animals. It's because some people think reading or writing about murder or incest etc makes you a murderer or someone who does incest. And these are grown ass adults or teens, not elementary school kids.
Banning all books that include things that "aren't real" for kids will leave us with nothing at all.
As a writer, I have always wanted to write an animal story but it was drilled into me that only children like those. Except that my favorite adult fiction book series is the Golden Cat so...
Definitely gonna grab Felidae and the Foxes of the First Dark. Definitely let me know what you think of the Golden Cat series. The first is "The Wild Road" by Gabriel King and it's a 2-book series. I absolutely adore it.
I've also wanted to read Raptor Red for a while since it's about a Utahraptor trying to survive. And Whinny of the Wild Horses is an old classic that is very dark, very realistic. Very recommended and a fairly short read.
“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.” G.K. Chesterton
And it is always the dragons looking to ban them for that.
This is kind of why children's stories exist I think. Obviously you want it to be entertaining and you probably want it to be liked, but I think the ideal is that the kid learns using a nonreal setting about real things they're likely to encounter, and so they're more prepared to respond to those things than they would be otherwise. Especially with a setting that's fantasy in some way—like a story that's about talking owls rather than regular humans—providing the detachment from reality that leaves space for the child to engage in deep, difficult, or harsh concepts before the need to confront them in real life.
(And frankly, adult's media as well can have character growth that provides an example to the audience to apply to real life, though it's probably more likely an adult audience has already seen those situations.)
That being said, yeah probably best not to respond to someone describing that traumatic experience with "Just like that weird book I read as a kid! That's how I know this is bad!". Of course it's a bit out of context, so that original comment might not have been made in a place where the original person describing their childhood would see it.
fr why is my favourite childrens book catching strays like this. I agree that this is not the first thing that they should think of but that doesn't take away from the fact that the series is geniunely insane and incredibly good at handling important themes like this and conveying it to child audiences. like yes it is a book about owls, but it's also a book about group think, cultist behaviour, racial supremacy, making a person or a group of people into heroes, the way war changes you as a person irreperably and the importance of cross-cultural understanding and cooperation.
The youngest millennials were born in 96, and oldest gen Z in 97. The books came out from 2003—2013, and the target audience is ages 8-12. So while I'm sure there are still kids reading them, the target demographic during the run of the books were millennials and older Gen z. :)
Guardians of Ga'Hoole was basically the only place I could find any condemnation of that sort of behavior in the American South growing up. It's the only thing that really framed it as bad, because anything I did learn about slavery (we were never taught about the horrors of the Holocaust) was like, "Sometimes the mean slave bosses would make the slaves eat bugs if they didn't harvest enough crop!" Or "The really bad slave managers made the slaves get up before the crack of dawn, that was pretty mean :( but the good slave owners knew that people worked best when they got up with the sunrise!"
Even after moving to California the Holocaust was never taught in detail in high-school. It had brief passing mentions here and there and really only focused on labor camps and Auschwitz, no other parts of the holocaust were really taught.
I don't blame anyone for their first (and likely only) real exposure to fascism, racial supremacy being bad, and the specific mechanisms used by Nazis, slave owners, etc... to be fiction. Especially if they're from some place like the American South that refuses to teach the actual history.
I even named one of my own owl characters Lyzel when I was a kid. I don’t have a use for him in my story anymore but I’m sure I’ll reuse the name one day.
You need to understand that kids are growing up every year and the media they've been exposed to will get more and more modern year after year.
To give an example. I'm in my 30s. You know what the first movie I ever saw that did the "guy from the big city ends up in a small town and learns to appreciate the little things in life" trope was?
Cars.
There are people growing up for whom Avatar is their Pocahantas, because parents aren't putting decades old movies on for their kids. There are people growing up for whom The Avengers taught them the value of people coming together despite their differences.
That's not them being some weird sheltered kid. It's them being Gen Z and having grown up more recently than you did.
I understand what you are saying, but 1. I just wanted to reference a meme, and 2. It's not necessarily a case of having the context from media or newer media. It's someone talking about stripping away someone's person hood, something you don't need any context to know is fucked and seeing that and going "Hey that's just like the book I read, yeah I'm weird for reading that book." It's a wildly tone deaf thing to say. And says less about the media the kid consumed and more about the environment they grew up in. That they were very sheltered if their only reason they can related and understand depersonalisation of a human is the owl avengers book and if they were lead to believe they were weird for reading the owl avengers book that was notable enough to get a film adaptation.
Yeah, but they're also probably a kid, and kids aren't the best communicators. Definitely not a great way to respond to someone's trauma, for sure. I just think the point everyone is making is that this can be a good learning experience for the commenter, and it'll be a more effective one if it's communicated to them kindly instead of via internet dunking. Better to assume ignorance and be compassionate, at least with stuff like this.
It’s a tumblr thing. Basically, if you’re posting a screenshot of something you didn’t say/don’t agree with, you make it obvious at a glance by “downing” it
Bullying that poor user (someone OOP acknowledges as potentially a child) for learning a method of dehumanisation from a children's book instead of reading political theory lol
It's really a push to say they're bullying the person, especially since they said they were trying not to dunk too hard on them, I honestly think it's a bit justified because seriously who hasn't been taught about the holocaust at some point or another, it's not really some obscure piece of political theory, I would imagine that someone who is posting on tumblr and is also old enough to be referring to themselves as a weird kid in the past tense should be at least mid teens at which point you should have learned about some real life examples of dehumanisation like the holocaust, slavery, etc. (I hope)
Political theory? The comment is being dunked on because a random children's book was the first thing that popped into their head instead when thinking about dehumanization, and not something like the Holocaust.
Which, yea still isn't really fair since the commenter was probably a child.
I mean, maybe because they’re a child, or maybe it’s just something that formed a lasting, emotional memory.
I have to admit that if you talk about certain serious topics (public desecration of a corpse is the one that springs to mind), my first thought is not for any number of historical incidents I have learned about, but a fictional one. Because that story was told with the intention of making it as emotionally impactful as possible and it worked.
Edit: I do agree that the way they said that does suggest they’re younger. I say I have to admit the above because I know this kind of thing can be thoughtless to say aloud and younger people are often still forming that awareness.
to be fair while it's completely normal for fictional situations you've seen to pop into your mind before real ones, you probably still know to have some tact to not immediately go "oh god it's just like this ya novel/show/movie i was into as a kid" out loud to the person telling you about something horrible they went through. the owl books started in 2003 and went on for a while, and the person in the comment mentions they were a weird kid, so it's safe to assume they are at least 18-20ish being generous, so that should really be enough growing up done to know better than to compare someone's real trauma to a book.
yes, fiction can be great at teaching things that school/people don't want to teach kids, and from what i know the guardians of ga'hoole series has some very important commentary to teach them, but this kind of comment can still come off as incredibly tone deaf in this situation.
Yes, that’s more or less what I was hoping to communicate with that added edit, but you covered it in better detail.
Still, I’m learning that it takes some people well into adulthood to learn that certain things are inappropriate/tone-deaf/inconsiderate to say in certain situations.
They could just be 13. Teenagers don't always view themselves as "kids". It's very tone deaf, but I'm assuming this person is very young and/or socially oblivious, not malicious.
that is fair, my assumption is based on the fact that the book series is relatively old by now and those years were when it was at its peak of popularity and as such the most likely time period for someone to have read them. regardless you are correct, it's not malicious, just incredibly tone deaf and i do hope this person has learned from this comment because i can't imagine that reply section being polite
it absolutely is but it seems like that person is a child, and it’s very common for children to think that way. hopefully they have good role models who can teach them better ways to empathise with situations
Teenagers who are still kids but think they arent will still refer to barely a few years ago as "when i was a kid". Case in point this person could be like 16 talking about when they were 10-11.
The naive shock of the comment is also screaming sheltered minor
If youre an adult, you should absolutely know that some peoples parents are fcking terrible people (some are actual nazis) and will censor and brainwash their kids into tital ignorance about A LOT of shit. There is ALWAYS someone, who for one reason or another, doesnt know shit the rest of us take for granted as inherent knowledge, or find out from unconventional means.
Be grateful you werent fcked over by your own family like this
and how do we learn what, exactly, is tone deaf in any given situation? I'm pretty damn sure I didn't come out the womb knowing what those words meant, so it had to happen at some point between birth and now
and in fact, I can remember the point at which I realized what the phrase "a time and a place" truly meant, back when I was... 12? didn't stop me from routinely sticking my foot into my mouth for much of the following decade, though, because I guess Santa Clause didn't gift unto me Appropriate Times and Places To Bring Up Topics: How To Relate To Others Without Sounding Like A Prat the same way he did for you
Tumblr users are often young and/or neurodivergient. Hearing a story and relating with an experience of your own (even if it's just 'I read about this') is a common way for both children and people with autism to show empathy.
First person fiction is also really good at teaching neurodiverse people about neurotypical thought processes or vice versa, because people don't tend to talk about them, if they are even conscious of them and the possibility of differences at all.
It's fine that they were introduced to the concept by the owl books, absolutely zero shame in that, it's very weird that the owl books seem to be their only reference point for the concept of dehumanization. They bring it up as though it's unique to the books, like the author invented it, not like it's a very real thing that has happened in real life many times. They bring up the owl books to get across just how bad the situation is, as tho the person posting wasn't aware, and as if the owl books are the best point of reference for why those actions are bad. It's a very strange, tone deaf comment that I can only really imagine coming from a literal child (not teen, pre teen at most), or someone who was incredibly sheltered as a child and somehow managed to exist in such a protected bubble beyond that that their level of ignorance is rather concerning for an adult.
okay i think this is fine but also it's kind of weird to bring up the book you read as a kid in response to hearing about this actually happening. i think thats kind of weird in a bad way.
It’s funny to see which way the pendulum swings every time this is posted. Personally, I am of the opinion that this is a hideously tone deaf thing to respond with to a personal story about extreme child abuse.
Yes, the "omg just like in that book I read" is an inside thought.
We don't need to say it.
I also instinctively try to relate to people by going omg that's just like– but we do not need to – and should not – say these things out loud when someone is discussing heavy topics.
Nice, I think that’s the last bit of nuance I was hoping would arise here. I agree that while it’s not a bad thought to have, it’s not a very thoughtful thing to raise in a serious discussion, especially with someone personally affected. But that can be an awareness that takes people an extra bit to learn.
Right. It's a normal thought to have when you're still learning about the world. You don't. You don't SAY it, though, because good god.
Social faux pas happen, though. Everyone has opened their mouth and said something incredibly stupid that's sucked all the air out of a room. It's how we learn what not to say, when everyone else goes "wow man. don't say that."
Tumblr skews both young and neurodivergent, and feeling compelled to add a personal anecdote or connection to any situation to try and show understanding (even when inappropriate) is both a young and neurodivergent thing to do.
If learning things from fiction was bad then there wouldn't be so many stories with morals or messages and the world would be a whole lot less interesting
People debate whether it's in poor taste to draw comparisons between real-world abuse and fiction. What sticks out to me is them associating being a "weird kid" with a fairly commercially and critically successful franchise.
I agree. I was one of those rural kids, but I think the difference is that I read a lot. And what I read , I understood. So, fiction has a purpose even if it isn't explicitly stated.
A lot of my knowledge about how to treat partners in a relationship came from Alanis Morrissette's song Not the Doctor.
Not the danciest song on Jagged Little Pill, but boy did it give me a leg up on the other kids when it came to relating to women and actually treating them like human beings.
It’s if I remember correctly a somewhat condemning format. Like the take was bad. Something like that. I’ve never used it personally so I can’t say for certain if that’s exactly how it’s used.
My first insight about this was in Les Miserables. Jean Valjean, prisoner number 24601. As a kid (around 12 or 13, which was over 17 years ago now, ow), I wondered why Javert refused to call him by name, and repeatedly used it in just about every interaction early on, as well as during Valjean's escape right before act 2. Then it hit me - Javert was purposely alienating Valjean, dehumanizing him, belittling him. At the time, it kinda reminded me of how my bullies would always call me everything but my actual name, and it made me hate Javert.
Books genuinely taught me SO much growing up. Off the top of my head, I remember that kids and YA books taught me about serious concepts like various forms of oppression, propaganda, eating disorders, AIDS and the AIDS crisis, indoctrination, social stratification, cannibalism.... You'd be surprised how many books aimed at young teens feature or mention cannibalism.
I mean, I know it's been said to death about this post, but most social media platforms require their users to be 13. In the US, most kids are taught about the Holocaust in 9th grade, when they're 14. Plus there's so many kids that make accounts way before they're old enough to. This is probably some kid who hasn't gotten to WWII in school yet, expressing compassion for how messed up the situation is with the only frame of reference they have. It comes across as insensitive, yes, but it's at least understandable.
And in some places, tragically, kids aren't taught about the Holocaust at all. This is kind of an example of why reading is so important. I also read the Guardians of Ga'Hoole growing up, and it taught me a lot of important lessons. It's obviously no longer my go to reference on giving people numbers instead of names, but at one point it was. Good children's media is so, so important. I'm glad this user read that series and took the right lessons from it.
that brian david gilbert quote has genuinely changed the way i think about a lot of things
In my mind it sits alongside XKCD's Lucky 10,000
there really is an XKCD for everything
There's the one about people being too enmeshed in their own sphere of knowledge and unable to remember how little people outside the sphere know about the topic this one. There was a tumblr post about it some time later where they made it about Pokemon and the point they assume everyone knows is Garganacl so now my spouse and I refer to assumed familiarity as a Garganacl problem.
See I've been trying to get "Feldsparring" to catch on as a phrase ever since my high school academic team coach referenced this comic and showed it to me
enmenched?
It’s up there with not shaming someone for not having watched/read/experienced whatever it is and instead telling them that you’re so happy they get to experience the thing for the first time!
Which video is this from? I'm sure I've seen it, but I don't remember it.
Pet Hp one.
The previous sentence he said was "Animal abuse is wrong." (That's the specific thing he's telling the audience, and being glad he told the audience, but it's of course applicable for a lot).
...i wanna say it's the Megaman video? i'm not really sure, though. i just know it's definitely an Unravelled video.
I dug around and it's the pet hp one at about 2:20 https://youtu.be/9Jcxc-ddWKI?si=ABPJJwyRXzKT4Hpz
I was really expecting a few more layers of tumblr irony where the first user revealed that they had contempt for the person in the drowned post because they themselves learned this concept from a far more high-brow and serious source, like the musical Les Misérables.
Prisoner 24601!
Prisoner two-four-six-oh-two-oh-six-oh-four-FIVE-one!
You're no one.
You know what THAT means
Means I'm freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
No.
(eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee)
No.
FISH
LOL.
Your time is up and your time is up and YOUR TIME IS UP.
Two fort.
(dramatic music swells and unswells)
Get Me A Sand Wich
Nom Nom Nom Nom Woaow
I stole the bread!
[ Removed by Reddit ]
And I'm Jaujvert!
My name is Joj ValJoj
I love that story about Joj ValJoj and his crazy life story or as I like to call it the bizarre adventures of jo jo.
It's pride month, 24-6-01. You know what that means.
fish!
2fort
Thank you for that. Finally, a runner up (imo) to An Incomprehensible Journey.
I didn't think about how someone might learn about this from fiction, but you're probably going to read children's novels before you learn about the Holocaust so I guess it makes sense.
Unless of course your dad is weird and hands you Exodus at age 10 💀
Someone should have explained to him that just because I could read anything, didn't mean I should tbh. I had nightmares.
Sounds like my dad. His approach was anything I could read, I was allowed to read.
I mean, that would be fine, if that was all it'd be perfect because I also believe kids should be allowed to read anything they can read and want to read.
The problem comes in when you're recommending Leon Uris and James Clavell to your ten-year-old 🤣
Ngl I got some very weird ideas about what was edible from King Rat.
Yeah that's a bit much. I definitely read some things way earlier than I should've, but I picked them out.
But like who reads that for fun?
They're both very successful authors so I assume people do read them for enjoyment
Obviously Stranger Things did it first.
Shoutouts to the countless people who made weird psychological rpgmaker games for free, super in depth stories on tumblr, and a variety of other strange people who made stories with too much depth in them, many a year ago, I learned a lot of concepts from those. I still think about that post that described the process of breaking fingers as an effective method of torture. Absolutely horrifying, thank you.
internet horror is so special to me and if we lose the internet to censorship, as is becoming more likely, it’ll be the thing i mourn most. i’m a horror enthusiast so i’m biased but i truly believe some of the most beautiful stories ever told are horror stories
I'm deep in the weeds of media criticism centered around horror genres. I agree.
I think porn access is more central to wellbeing of society but sure
????
Okay?? But sure 🙄
Sure, but like, that's not really what this conversation is about.
"if we lose the internet to censorship, as is becoming more likely, it’ll be the thing i mourn most."
Is it?
No one cares about your boner.
It’s something they teach you to be able to resist in special forces training in the USA. Part of it is breaking someone’s finger in a “safe manner” so people don’t break the first time
You've piqued my curiosity. Although, I don't think anyone would need much convincing that finger-breaking is effective insofar as torture is effective.
Line from a weird Sherlock fanfiction called "L'instinct de l'equarisseur" (no idea what's it like in English).
The aforementioned line was later referred to by Sherlock saying "you tortured my man, and for what?" And I was like "oh yeah, that would qualify as torture." It just was just pressnted so casually (and I was a bit enamored with the character who did it) that I didn't make the connection.
What
rpg maker horror my beloved
If you needed me to tell you that, then I'm glad I told you that.
But I'm not glad that nobody else taught you that before me. Other people failed you
Similarly, it's frustrating when people dunk on kids for 'oh, you silly kid, you don't know what a dial phone is!'
Yeah, ok, if it's important to you, then fucking teach people. It's a shame no one else has done so before you got to them, but it's now on you to rectify that issue.
At work we have students come in to do intern-y type stuff, and more than a few, I've had to pull aside and say 'listen, bud, if you don't have pride in your work, you need to get yourself to a point where you do, because you MUST put your name on your drawings, etc' - it's fucking shitty that this hasn't been instilled in them before that point, but the minute I notice it, then it's my responsibility to at least tell them.
Tbh this is the same way sheltered queer kids with oppressive/conservative parents can first be introduced to affirming stories and characters and feelings that lets them know theyre ok.
Its not a gigabrain take to dunk on those people who have their entry point to queer identity/discrimination be some innocuous YA book with semi hidden or surface level representation/allegory instead of being taught or being allowed to consume out n proud queer media/stories. Same is true here.
It's not very surprising at all, actually - many parents limit or control what media their children consume. Whether rightfully or not is entirely dependent on their (or your) view, of course.
Usually it's because it raises uncomfortable questions or challenges viewpoints that shitty parents don't want to answer or defend.
That’s why the book bans have become so outrageous.
My mother bless her was a gifted elementary school teacher. She bought a bunch of those banned books and gifted them to our daughter. It’s shocking to read them and learn what’s in them that got them banned: basic human compassion.
The Rabbit Listened: it’s a simple story of a sad kid because their block castle fell down and animals come along trying to cheer them up. Bunnies want to hop away the sad, bears want to roar it away, they all advise something to do to make the pain go away. Then a rabbit comes and just listens to the kid talk about the nice thing they had that’s gone, and it helps.
….That books was banned. They are big brother, it’s not a joke.
I looked it up and can't find what backwards reason it's banned for. Like...surely the people who banned it aren't banning it for basic compassion, they have to have some fucked up logic. Do you happen to know what that would be because I'm legit curious.
My best guess is it's some religious wacko idea that thinks animals talking means they're demons or something.
Librarian here: There are a lot of people who believe that anthropomorphic animals are inherently harmful because they're not real and therefore contaminate children's ability to distinguish reality from fiction. It's not religious, more of a pedagogical theory that has been kicked around a while.
Shit, then I guess I can't "distinguish reality from fiction" because that was like all I read when I was a kid at will. I thought stories about human characters were boring...mostly? I loved Junie B Jones but things like Redwall were my jam.
The risk of not being able to distinguish reality from fiction is there but it's not because of talking animals. It's because some people think reading or writing about murder or incest etc makes you a murderer or someone who does incest. And these are grown ass adults or teens, not elementary school kids.
Banning all books that include things that "aren't real" for kids will leave us with nothing at all.
As a writer, I have always wanted to write an animal story but it was drilled into me that only children like those. Except that my favorite adult fiction book series is the Golden Cat so...
The Animals of Farthing Wood, Plague Dogs, even Watership Down are very violent at times.
I'm in my 30s and I would love more adult animal stories like Felidae and The Foxes of Firstdark.
Thank you for reccing The Golden Cat!
Definitely gonna grab Felidae and the Foxes of the First Dark. Definitely let me know what you think of the Golden Cat series. The first is "The Wild Road" by Gabriel King and it's a 2-book series. I absolutely adore it.
I've also wanted to read Raptor Red for a while since it's about a Utahraptor trying to survive. And Whinny of the Wild Horses is an old classic that is very dark, very realistic. Very recommended and a fairly short read.
“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.” G.K. Chesterton
And it is always the dragons looking to ban them for that.
They banned a book about an old Jewish lady celebrating Shabbat.
These complaints are not rational in any sense of the term. Almost all of the bans boil down to "I don't like the idea that this person exists".
They have been calling compassion something evil for years now
This is kind of why children's stories exist I think. Obviously you want it to be entertaining and you probably want it to be liked, but I think the ideal is that the kid learns using a nonreal setting about real things they're likely to encounter, and so they're more prepared to respond to those things than they would be otherwise. Especially with a setting that's fantasy in some way—like a story that's about talking owls rather than regular humans—providing the detachment from reality that leaves space for the child to engage in deep, difficult, or harsh concepts before the need to confront them in real life.
(And frankly, adult's media as well can have character growth that provides an example to the audience to apply to real life, though it's probably more likely an adult audience has already seen those situations.)
That being said, yeah probably best not to respond to someone describing that traumatic experience with "Just like that weird book I read as a kid! That's how I know this is bad!". Of course it's a bit out of context, so that original comment might not have been made in a place where the original person describing their childhood would see it.
The last time I saw this post it did not have the additional replies and I'm so glad it now does. Good additions.
Yeah, last time I saw this post without the additions I got kind of an icky feeling . This is good now
Fuck Striders, Guardians of Ga'Hoole was awesome. What the fuck were they reading as a kid?
I read a couple books from one of the series, with the wolf? Really liked it, was super fun. I forget what it was called though :(
Wolves of the Beyond!
fr why is my favourite childrens book catching strays like this. I agree that this is not the first thing that they should think of but that doesn't take away from the fact that the series is geniunely insane and incredibly good at handling important themes like this and conveying it to child audiences. like yes it is a book about owls, but it's also a book about group think, cultist behaviour, racial supremacy, making a person or a group of people into heroes, the way war changes you as a person irreperably and the importance of cross-cultural understanding and cooperation.
Exactly! It's a genuinely good series.
Oh god this comment is so gen z I think I just gained some gray hairs
I'm a millennial dude.
Lol sorry, guess my mental math was wrong. Figured if you were a kid when those books came out you must be younger than you are
Lol, no problem. I am on the younger side of millennials, so that probably didn't help.
The youngest millennials were born in 96, and oldest gen Z in 97. The books came out from 2003—2013, and the target audience is ages 8-12. So while I'm sure there are still kids reading them, the target demographic during the run of the books were millennials and older Gen z. :)
Guardians of Ga'Hoole was basically the only place I could find any condemnation of that sort of behavior in the American South growing up. It's the only thing that really framed it as bad, because anything I did learn about slavery (we were never taught about the horrors of the Holocaust) was like, "Sometimes the mean slave bosses would make the slaves eat bugs if they didn't harvest enough crop!" Or "The really bad slave managers made the slaves get up before the crack of dawn, that was pretty mean :( but the good slave owners knew that people worked best when they got up with the sunrise!"
Even after moving to California the Holocaust was never taught in detail in high-school. It had brief passing mentions here and there and really only focused on labor camps and Auschwitz, no other parts of the holocaust were really taught.
I don't blame anyone for their first (and likely only) real exposure to fascism, racial supremacy being bad, and the specific mechanisms used by Nazis, slave owners, etc... to be fiction. Especially if they're from some place like the American South that refuses to teach the actual history.
Guardians of Ga’Hoole was freaking awesome. I was such a Lyze of Kiel Stan
I even named one of my own owl characters Lyzel when I was a kid. I don’t have a use for him in my story anymore but I’m sure I’ll reuse the name one day.
Unexpected BDG
not to mock that kid but it reminded me of this
https://preview.redd.it/3hzb4w7o35cg1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=0f213bf08bb0b8049c6cbd0cab1f47142603d7d9
(also I'm glad that the kid at least understands the severity of this act because of that book)
I agree with the follow up sentiments but man.
Person who has only seen boss baby: "This child abuse is giving me a lot of boss baby vibes."
i also agree with the follow up but would just like to like r/readanotherbook under this comment specifically. truly a goldmine of a subreddit
You need to understand that kids are growing up every year and the media they've been exposed to will get more and more modern year after year.
To give an example. I'm in my 30s. You know what the first movie I ever saw that did the "guy from the big city ends up in a small town and learns to appreciate the little things in life" trope was?
Cars.
There are people growing up for whom Avatar is their Pocahantas, because parents aren't putting decades old movies on for their kids. There are people growing up for whom The Avengers taught them the value of people coming together despite their differences.
That's not them being some weird sheltered kid. It's them being Gen Z and having grown up more recently than you did.
I understand what you are saying, but 1. I just wanted to reference a meme, and 2. It's not necessarily a case of having the context from media or newer media. It's someone talking about stripping away someone's person hood, something you don't need any context to know is fucked and seeing that and going "Hey that's just like the book I read, yeah I'm weird for reading that book." It's a wildly tone deaf thing to say. And says less about the media the kid consumed and more about the environment they grew up in. That they were very sheltered if their only reason they can related and understand depersonalisation of a human is the owl avengers book and if they were lead to believe they were weird for reading the owl avengers book that was notable enough to get a film adaptation.
If you can't refer to ancient greek philosophers i don't want to hear about it.
Yeah, but they're also probably a kid, and kids aren't the best communicators. Definitely not a great way to respond to someone's trauma, for sure. I just think the point everyone is making is that this can be a good learning experience for the commenter, and it'll be a more effective one if it's communicated to them kindly instead of via internet dunking. Better to assume ignorance and be compassionate, at least with stuff like this.
I started looking into lobotomies and the horrors of how commonplace it was because of BoJack Horseman.
Why is it underwater
It’s a tumblr thing. Basically, if you’re posting a screenshot of something you didn’t say/don’t agree with, you make it obvious at a glance by “downing” it
Bullying that poor user (someone OOP acknowledges as potentially a child) for learning a method of dehumanisation from a children's book instead of reading political theory lol
Political theory? I thought the first poster was referring to the prisoners in Nazi concentration camps
It's really a push to say they're bullying the person, especially since they said they were trying not to dunk too hard on them, I honestly think it's a bit justified because seriously who hasn't been taught about the holocaust at some point or another, it's not really some obscure piece of political theory, I would imagine that someone who is posting on tumblr and is also old enough to be referring to themselves as a weird kid in the past tense should be at least mid teens at which point you should have learned about some real life examples of dehumanisation like the holocaust, slavery, etc. (I hope)
an anonymised post lightly poking fun is not bullying lol
Uh I mean I learned about it in elementary school history class but whatever makes it sink in I guess
Political theory? The comment is being dunked on because a random children's book was the first thing that popped into their head instead when thinking about dehumanization, and not something like the Holocaust.
Which, yea still isn't really fair since the commenter was probably a child.
I mean, maybe because they’re a child, or maybe it’s just something that formed a lasting, emotional memory.
I have to admit that if you talk about certain serious topics (public desecration of a corpse is the one that springs to mind), my first thought is not for any number of historical incidents I have learned about, but a fictional one. Because that story was told with the intention of making it as emotionally impactful as possible and it worked.
Edit: I do agree that the way they said that does suggest they’re younger. I say I have to admit the above because I know this kind of thing can be thoughtless to say aloud and younger people are often still forming that awareness.
to be fair while it's completely normal for fictional situations you've seen to pop into your mind before real ones, you probably still know to have some tact to not immediately go "oh god it's just like this ya novel/show/movie i was into as a kid" out loud to the person telling you about something horrible they went through. the owl books started in 2003 and went on for a while, and the person in the comment mentions they were a weird kid, so it's safe to assume they are at least 18-20ish being generous, so that should really be enough growing up done to know better than to compare someone's real trauma to a book.
yes, fiction can be great at teaching things that school/people don't want to teach kids, and from what i know the guardians of ga'hoole series has some very important commentary to teach them, but this kind of comment can still come off as incredibly tone deaf in this situation.
Yes, that’s more or less what I was hoping to communicate with that added edit, but you covered it in better detail.
Still, I’m learning that it takes some people well into adulthood to learn that certain things are inappropriate/tone-deaf/inconsiderate to say in certain situations.
They could just be 13. Teenagers don't always view themselves as "kids". It's very tone deaf, but I'm assuming this person is very young and/or socially oblivious, not malicious.
that is fair, my assumption is based on the fact that the book series is relatively old by now and those years were when it was at its peak of popularity and as such the most likely time period for someone to have read them. regardless you are correct, it's not malicious, just incredibly tone deaf and i do hope this person has learned from this comment because i can't imagine that reply section being polite
it's not bullying, it's just really funny that they learned the concept from owl books
Still kinda tone deaf to hear someone talk about abuse they suffered as a child and go "this is just like that owl book I read"
it absolutely is but it seems like that person is a child, and it’s very common for children to think that way. hopefully they have good role models who can teach them better ways to empathise with situations
they said "i was a weird kid"
Teenagers who are still kids but think they arent will still refer to barely a few years ago as "when i was a kid". Case in point this person could be like 16 talking about when they were 10-11.
The naive shock of the comment is also screaming sheltered minor
If they’re 16 they should absolutely know about the Holocaust and not compare prisoner numbering to the owl book 😭😭
Hey guy
If youre an adult, you should absolutely know that some peoples parents are fcking terrible people (some are actual nazis) and will censor and brainwash their kids into tital ignorance about A LOT of shit. There is ALWAYS someone, who for one reason or another, doesnt know shit the rest of us take for granted as inherent knowledge, or find out from unconventional means.
Be grateful you werent fcked over by your own family like this
yep
and how do we learn what, exactly, is tone deaf in any given situation? I'm pretty damn sure I didn't come out the womb knowing what those words meant, so it had to happen at some point between birth and now
and in fact, I can remember the point at which I realized what the phrase "a time and a place" truly meant, back when I was... 12? didn't stop me from routinely sticking my foot into my mouth for much of the following decade, though, because I guess Santa Clause didn't gift unto me Appropriate Times and Places To Bring Up Topics: How To Relate To Others Without Sounding Like A Prat the same way he did for you
Tumblr users are often young and/or neurodivergient. Hearing a story and relating with an experience of your own (even if it's just 'I read about this') is a common way for both children and people with autism to show empathy.
100%
First person fiction is also really good at teaching neurodiverse people about neurotypical thought processes or vice versa, because people don't tend to talk about them, if they are even conscious of them and the possibility of differences at all.
It's fine that they were introduced to the concept by the owl books, absolutely zero shame in that, it's very weird that the owl books seem to be their only reference point for the concept of dehumanization. They bring it up as though it's unique to the books, like the author invented it, not like it's a very real thing that has happened in real life many times. They bring up the owl books to get across just how bad the situation is, as tho the person posting wasn't aware, and as if the owl books are the best point of reference for why those actions are bad. It's a very strange, tone deaf comment that I can only really imagine coming from a literal child (not teen, pre teen at most), or someone who was incredibly sheltered as a child and somehow managed to exist in such a protected bubble beyond that that their level of ignorance is rather concerning for an adult.
okay i think this is fine but also it's kind of weird to bring up the book you read as a kid in response to hearing about this actually happening. i think thats kind of weird in a bad way.
It’s funny to see which way the pendulum swings every time this is posted. Personally, I am of the opinion that this is a hideously tone deaf thing to respond with to a personal story about extreme child abuse.
Yes, the "omg just like in that book I read" is an inside thought.
We don't need to say it.
I also instinctively try to relate to people by going omg that's just like– but we do not need to – and should not – say these things out loud when someone is discussing heavy topics.
I think it depends. Are you responding directly to that person? Probably not a great idea. Just reposting to your own feed? Probably ok? Idk.
Nice, I think that’s the last bit of nuance I was hoping would arise here. I agree that while it’s not a bad thought to have, it’s not a very thoughtful thing to raise in a serious discussion, especially with someone personally affected. But that can be an awareness that takes people an extra bit to learn.
Right. It's a normal thought to have when you're still learning about the world. You don't. You don't SAY it, though, because good god.
Social faux pas happen, though. Everyone has opened their mouth and said something incredibly stupid that's sucked all the air out of a room. It's how we learn what not to say, when everyone else goes "wow man. don't say that."
Tumblr skews both young and neurodivergent, and feeling compelled to add a personal anecdote or connection to any situation to try and show understanding (even when inappropriate) is both a young and neurodivergent thing to do.
Is there something wrong with me? Because that doesn’t seem particularly extreme to me. Kinda funny actually.
If learning things from fiction was bad then there wouldn't be so many stories with morals or messages and the world would be a whole lot less interesting
People debate whether it's in poor taste to draw comparisons between real-world abuse and fiction. What sticks out to me is them associating being a "weird kid" with a fairly commercially and critically successful franchise.
I'm guessing because where they grew up, it was an uncommon read, and so to them it was a "weird kid" book. I certainly haven't heard of it before.
i mean, warrior cats was probably my introduction to political conflict and the complicated nature of war
I agree. I was one of those rural kids, but I think the difference is that I read a lot. And what I read , I understood. So, fiction has a purpose even if it isn't explicitly stated.
Damn Ga’Hooligans
Okay obviously I agree with the post but why are we drowning the TikTok comment?
why are we trying to class classless universal concepts 😭
A lot of my knowledge about how to treat partners in a relationship came from Alanis Morrissette's song Not the Doctor.
Not the danciest song on Jagged Little Pill, but boy did it give me a leg up on the other kids when it came to relating to women and actually treating them like human beings.
I love how common that bdg quote is becoming
Who's that second guy his face is familiar but IDK name
Brian David Gilbert
Ah, that's it Thanks
If you learn about consent from adult websites and adult writing, it doesn’t make it less significant. If anything, it makes more
why is the tik tok comment underwater?
It’s if I remember correctly a somewhat condemning format. Like the take was bad. Something like that. I’ve never used it personally so I can’t say for certain if that’s exactly how it’s used.
My first insight about this was in Les Miserables. Jean Valjean, prisoner number 24601. As a kid (around 12 or 13, which was over 17 years ago now, ow), I wondered why Javert refused to call him by name, and repeatedly used it in just about every interaction early on, as well as during Valjean's escape right before act 2. Then it hit me - Javert was purposely alienating Valjean, dehumanizing him, belittling him. At the time, it kinda reminded me of how my bullies would always call me everything but my actual name, and it made me hate Javert.
Books genuinely taught me SO much growing up. Off the top of my head, I remember that kids and YA books taught me about serious concepts like various forms of oppression, propaganda, eating disorders, AIDS and the AIDS crisis, indoctrination, social stratification, cannibalism.... You'd be surprised how many books aimed at young teens feature or mention cannibalism.
Second imagine is a bop
I mean, I know it's been said to death about this post, but most social media platforms require their users to be 13. In the US, most kids are taught about the Holocaust in 9th grade, when they're 14. Plus there's so many kids that make accounts way before they're old enough to. This is probably some kid who hasn't gotten to WWII in school yet, expressing compassion for how messed up the situation is with the only frame of reference they have. It comes across as insensitive, yes, but it's at least understandable.
And in some places, tragically, kids aren't taught about the Holocaust at all. This is kind of an example of why reading is so important. I also read the Guardians of Ga'Hoole growing up, and it taught me a lot of important lessons. It's obviously no longer my go to reference on giving people numbers instead of names, but at one point it was. Good children's media is so, so important. I'm glad this user read that series and took the right lessons from it.
r/ readanotherbook but it's good
Jesse why are you blue
I remember the video the second one is from, I've seen it, but I need more details to find it. help please?
Here's the clip of that part in the video it's from.
TIL: guardians of gahool is a book series.
The movie is spectacular!
TIL Guardians of Ga'Hoole was based on a book series and wasn't just Zack Snyder's fever dream about owls.
Yes I still absolutely love Guardians of Gahoole and this is one of the reasons
There are things striders has never heard of, and that's normal
relevant xkcd
There are two heroes here, one is the child, the other is the book