I've seen this sentiment in subreddits that aren't even dedicated to music or her. The heavens know why.
She's a mediocre vocalist to the point where nearly every single halfway relevant female pop star of the 21st century has been flat out better.
She literally can't dance and hasn't improved. Britney had this locked from day 1. Dua Lipa used to be subpar, but busted her butt to improve. I have no idea what Taylor is doing.
She can't play an instrument at anywhere near a professional level. Hell, her guitar work is bad for a long-term hobbyist. As far as I know, she can't even attempt to play anything else.
Her production contributions are not noteworthy. Like...Kate Bush exists...how can you call Taylor supremely talented when she doesn't hold a thimble up to her?
I don't know about lyrics. This is definitely her strongest point relative to the median, but I think that's more due to the fact she doesn't make full on nonsensical dance tunes. I haven't heard of anything by her that blows me away and to be honest, I think the lyrical circle jerk is massively overblown across all genres.
I don't get it. The only way this makes any sense is if people are comparing her to the absolutely most vapid dance-pop OR if they're extremely prejudiced against more traditional popstars.
The true talent is whoever is behind her marketing.
Definitely. 1. Blowing up every issue/ “beef” however petty it is and making it look like she’s an underdog 2. Every paid or advocated publication of how talented she is to a point that they’re force-feeding the public this ideation
Her marketing team is hella equipped and honestly, really smart. It also helps that she’s loaded with funds. Money talks.
That is the right answer and she's backed up a lot by her family's money and her dad's connection to the industry.
Had she been born as a middle class, she wouldn't have had a record deal or some shit. And nobody believes her dumb shit story that she's a humble country girl from Nashville. It's now a knowledge to everyone she grew up in Pennsylvania and has a big mansion or some shit.
But Swifties say she’s behind her marketing! Mastermind at PR, advertising, social media - all of it! (I’m in Marketing and have gotten schooled by Swifties when I said she doesn’t single handedly do any of it)
Her mother is part of the marketing team and her brother works in the licensing aspect of marketing. It's a family business afterall.
Andrea.
Tree
Scott and Tree.
Her marketing is amazing because she’s been able to basically get people to sympathize with her personal life which she includes in her music. What I find interesting is that a lot of artists work actually mentions their personal lives, but they don’t go in length to discuss it outside of the work. Like if you take Adele, for example she’s obviously said that her albums are about past lovers and divorce, but she doesn’t really feel the need to go out of her way and leak stories about personal things and all that other stuff she relies on the music and vocal speaking for themselves, which is something Taylor can’t do. This is why her fandom is like digging through her lyrics trying to find multiple meanings.
I came to say this! She really understands marketing super well
Imo her looks helped with the illusion. She has the looks of a pop star prototype, but also not too attractive that it would intimidate people. Her features fall into the girl next door category, and when she was a teenager playing the poor baby heartbroken victim, it was easy to categorize her singing as raw, emotional and heartfelt, and that she was just like "any other girl following her big dreams". Now the facade is cracking and falling, and once you see how she's not as talented and authentic as she's marketed, it's impossible to see her as a true artist
Now she's got wine aunt energy (not affectionate)
That’s so true about the looks. If you look at other pop stars like Britney, Sabrina, Rihanna, Beyoncé, they’re all known for their talent and very good looks. Taylor came out as a more plain/natural girl next door pop star, which was different at the time. Unfortunately she wanted to be more than that and had a bunch of plastic surgery that only made her look worse. I bet she would be so pretty if she never touched her face.
She could make this work better if she truly morphed to suit her different "eras." Instead, she's stuck in teenager mode. Ignoring the complete lack of talent.
Honestly, her botched face suits her-ghoul on the inside, ghoul on the outside.
She looks like a chipmunk. I haven’t ever really heard another dude remark on her beauty.
I also believe that the rumors of Taylor having ghost writers is true because how the fuck did a 20 year old Taylor wrote a better album over a 35 year old Taylor for Life of a Shitgirl which had a massive downgrade. A lot of people from the internet speculated it's cause her boyfriend is a dumbass manchild but I think that's only a factor. I think she ditched ghost writers completely for her latest album and thought she can replicate her past albums.
There are rumors too that Lisa Marie Presley was the one ghost writing Taylor's music until she passed away in 2023 which coencides Taylor's decline on songwriting post Midnights. I wonder if that's true
… what! Where did you hear about Lisa Marie Presley being her ghostwriter??
It's on tiktok and blind items
Yep, I posted about this blind item the other day. I can totally see Lisa Marie being a prolific ghostwriter for many pop stars.
I mean, there are always highs and lows in everyone’s careers, especially when it comes to art. I think she’s just super in her own world, because she’s become super rich and more famous than before in a pretty short amount of time, so she kind of lost her ability to write compelling and heartfelt lyrics
I agree with you. But I don’t think it accounts for how she has to use clunky run-on sentences and awkward swear words to write songs now when she used to be concise and impactful. The style is regressing which is odd
It really seems like she started writing her own stuff starting at tortured poets bc that album and showgirl both are in the exact same voice, one that’s different from all the albums before it. I think eras tour made her confident enough and drink her own koolaid enough that she was some generational genius and she wrote all the words herself.. whereas before she may have written things here and there but I do think her early pop albums especially were mostly ghostwritten.
There’s none of the cringe verbosity and try-hard intellectualism in those albums that you see in her last two, and to me that’s the smoking gun.
Yes, this makes the most sense. I’m 100% with you on this.
I don’t believe she ever had that ability. Wholeheartedly believe that ghostwriters and then Joe wrote her best lyrics. I think TTPD was the first album she wrote solo followed by the next dumpster fire, The Shitshow album. Her two absolute worst albums were all her. I wonder how much that bruised her ego.
Wouldn't be surprised if she had ghostwriters, but it also could be that she had better editors/a team that she actually listened to. I've definitely become worse at things that I used to do really well for various reasons like too much pressure/mental health (and getting out of practice but that shouldn't apply to her if she really does write this much music).
The writing and "voice" for TLOASG matches up to her old MySpace posts from around her debut. That, and her inability to articulate her thoughts, or tell a captivating story in interviews is what convinced me the songs she gets lauded for were definitely not her writing. I think, if anything, she gets writing credit because she gives producers and writers her diary (with the angst and rantings of a perpetual 13 year old ) and they craft a song out of them.
She was always insufferable and delusional of her talents, but definitely got high on her own supply in the last few years.
To be fair, I was a better writer and thinker when I was in undergrad compared to now, in an abstract sense. Mostly because how I spend my free time has changed and my perspective on how I’m proving myself and contributing to society has changed. Her’s have changed too. She achieved superstardom, she earned more money than can be spent in a lifetime. The game is over.
I’d agree with you because I know I’m much rustier now than I was in undergrad, too, but she doesn’t even have that high point to compare too. She never went to college or even took high school seriously. I don’t think she’s ever strived to write well or to genuinely impress others. She’s so impressed with herself that it’s never mattered.
Knowing that she used to live in TN and there are so many talented people there, it baffles me that she is the one who became famous
Well, her family, which was worth 400 million at the time, moved her to Nashville at age 13 with the goal of making her famous. Im so exhausted of hearing about how fucking talented she is, let me tell you.
At the time?! Do we have a source?
Yeah I’m not sure they were worth 400m. I did see this somewhere but then it was debunked. They were certainly very wealthy though.
Yup same
They were worth 400M then?! I knew they were rich but I didn’t know they were that rich?!
The fact she was rich makes even more sense
https://preview.redd.it/y02ngq2dqn9g1.jpeg?width=565&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6c158927d26d4a5631e17ce13422cfcab5d91e9
🤣🤣🤣🤣 stop it
“Sorry liberals” skeleton memes are my bread n butter
Way too funny
The only talents she has are in engineering parasocial relationships, finding goated pr managers, always finding a way to make herself a victim no matter the scenario (how much of that can be attributed to her and how much to the pr managers is debatable) and appealing to old white dudes, which is why she has a shitton of grammies. The actual musical and songwriting talent is rudimentary at best.
She’s not super talented at all. She’s mediocre at best.
I cant imagine being Taylor and being that mediocre. Best believe as soon as I blew up I’d be taking dance lessons, vocal lessons, piano lessons, guitar lessons, etc
I don’t doubt the idea of her and her family pushing her to do that once she broke through, however the time around Taylor’s mainstream debut was when the industry began to grow very complacent.
Taylor has an easy out for dance lessons, because I don’t know what I’d expect a white girl with a prop gimmick guitar to do on stage. I don’t think she has a dance track besides “Shake It Off”.
However, not only does Taylor have songwriters, which devalued her incentive to properly sharpen her abilities, but there’s also session musicians who will play instruments for you. Her vocals are all Melodyne corrected, which all-around basically discourages Taylor (and really most artists that lack innate vocal talent and stage presence) to not try. The label will hire someone to sing for you if they need to — looking at J. Lo
There was a lot of astroturfing with the sentiment “you don’t have to like her, but you have to admit she’s talented,” and it kind of became the only way to get swifties to leave you alone. But I’ve always hated it. No, I don’t HAVE to admit she’s talented. Does Taylor have to say I’m talented in return?
They conflate talent with success.
Max Martin was the best thing that ever happened to her. Without him, she probably would not have crossed over successfully to pop.
I listened to her music religously from Speak Now - Midnights as a casual fan, just 2 years younger than her. Never watched her music videos or performances and just knew enough to identify which bf she was dating at any given time & nothing else. I liked her specifically because I found her lyrics relatable and identified with the emotions and storytelling. Looking back, I don't know how much of her catalogue was actually ghost written, but to me that relatability through her lyrics was what made her seem talented in my eyes back then.
Very true, I don't like midnights album at all though but would've could've should've is a beautiful song and it sounds very different from her regular music i loved it instantly, its a very realistic experience for many girls in my country and i do bawl my eyes out icl
It reminds me of a mix of Fearless and Red, one of the best songs on Midnights.
I would like to be as untalented as she is so I can cry myself to sleep at night surrounded by my billions.
Not sure what she's doing right...but it must be something.
Protip: Have family money and a mother in marketing. Easy! ;)
If you are wondering what you’re doing wrong compared to Taylor, then you’ve already screwed up step 1. Taylor is a billionaire because she never thinks critically of her actions and the gravity or repercussions of her decisions. 😭 Taylor does not do anything right per se, she just refuses to acknowledge that she’s done and continues to do a lot of wrong
I wish I could find it, but there was a TikTok that broke it down perfectly. Essentially it said that most people are mediocre in terms of talent, and so is Taylor. People feel seen by her, relate to her, and think her mediocre abilities are amazing because they too are mediocre. Andrea knew that and saw an opportunity to exploit it.
Taylor and her family sold the public an illusion and gaslit the fuck out of everyone to make it seem like her talent was being steamrolled by men.
Taylor and her family sold the public this illusion that every boy/man she dated was bad and that it was the bad ones that she wrote best and that if they wouldn't do the bad things then she wouldn't write songs about them.
this reinforces the whole first point about being steamrolled by men and even what she stated in her docuseries about Men always letting you down or thinking of you as a conglomerate.
from the start of her career everything turned into this spectacle over her relationships and subsequent heartbreak like boys/men could never experience such but we're always the ones solely responsible.
Taylor and her family sold the public this illusion that she was everything to everybody. You could Big Mac your own Taylor but it was only her PR and Taylor herself working to like content about Gaylors, Maylors, Jaylors, Hetlors, feminism, political anything, allyship, etc etc etc and create opportunities to turn that narrative just ever so and light up those sides of the fandom...
ARE WE NOT ENTERTAINED??
She said that herself in her incredibly self-absorbed TIME POTY.
The truth is she released a 6 part docuseries that was a romanticized self-absorbed version of her life.
The truth is that all that glitters is not gold when you are on top. The only thing she really has are people who she employs (including her own family) and fans and their public validation.
I believe she is completely controlled by her parents what 36 year old takes their mom literally everywhere she goes? It’s really weird.
I’ve always thought Andrea was off, probably gave Taylor her ED because genetically speaking Taylor probably should be overweight like her mom. Which again I dunno all that money and Andrea always looks like a frumpy old person. Sorry to disparage her looks but most mamas of mega rich people make an effort!
She's not super talented. Her fan base are narcs who use a successful narc to fill their inner void. I've been so burned that while I have no problem with diagnosed BPD patients, my radar has to go up if someone casually mentions they listen to Taylor. It has twice turned into a session where I listened to someone dissect Taylor's lyrics and the parallels to their life. I had to go home after the second session like that and brainstorm for hours how to stop the loop without a complaint being filed against me. It's a group of conspiratoral spiralers, splitters, and complete inability to handle disappointment or people's boundaries. Swifties aren't fans, per se. They use her narrative for their own avoidant purposes. The Swift/Kelce fan engagement parties prove this. They let her be their only principle - everything in their life is filtered through their parasocial attachment. Organize schedules around release dates. Make budgets based on concert tickets and merch drops. Make friendships based on "you either get her or I don't like you." Emotional regulation based on what's going on in her life. Self worth tied to "am I being a good fan?" They have no inner stability and will fight to the death to keep her on top or have to face their own ego death.
That's a new perspective haven't heard much around here - sounds exhausting. But agree, from what I've gleaned, many have tied their identity to Taylor and they don't even know it. They feel "seen" and why I've always had a problem with her music - because it normalizes toxic behaviors and unhealthy views of relationships.
For some reason, maybe partially Hollywood's fault, but Americans have a preoccupation with toxicity and drama. And that's also why I felt like people found her relatable. But what makes her worse than other singers, is her obsession with power over others without acknowledging her white privilege. In that regard, she's just another Trump in sheep's clothing.
Oh it's not just here. The British Royal family for example. They were hunted LONG before the Diana era. I went to London one year for Thanksgiving and the sheer amount of gossip rags were astounding, far more reputable looking than what we were living with in the US. Posh and Becks having a healthy relationship still today is a goddamn miracle. Back in the early day of Hollywood, gossip authors were treated celebs themselves, courted with PR tactics and all. However, the sheer depths of craziness from the Swift camp is like nothing I've ever studied before!
The thing I've always hated most is her talk singing and she does that to hide how flat she goes.
One silver lining as her image starts to fall and people see what's going on is she's evidence that money gets people ahead in this country more than giftedness. Time for a system change.
America is made up of white mediocre girls whose consumer power has kept the likes of Starbucks, Brandy Melville, Lush, etc going. Taylor is their Beyonce.
It's so fascinating because there are plenty of talented white women but they chose the most mediocre one.
Her marketing team are the reason, plus Joe's interference in her life also made her look better, but as a marketing student, she relies heavily on her team and they do a damn good job at making her look less insufferable
Mediocre white women want relatability, not talent. They don’t want to feel insecure
Mediocre white women are the most jealous and catty people on earth. Of course they don’t like actual beautiful women with actual talent.
She's the embodiment of the American white feminine ideal (America's sweetheart coded).
She really does tick off all the boxes.
-WASP
-Not remotely sexual for most of her run
-Does not make 'vapid' dance music
-Not overtly LGTBQ+ friendly
She's the not like the other girls of popstars.
I don't get it either. Most of the music I listen to is prog rock and let me tell you even middling prog musicians would eat Taylor alive in a contest of skill.
Maybe Andrea is as good as Kris Jenner
She was shoved into mainstream air time on radio constantly when she was starting out. Her target audience is young kids/girls. Most 8 year old girls are not diving deep into the music scene at the record stores or going to concerts all the time. Her music was accessible for that age group. Have it shoved down your throat enough and it becomes recognizable and familiar. Simple enough songs for children to enjoy.
She isn’t. Objectively.
Billie, before she even turned 18, was a better vocalist than Taylor has ever been.
Yes. And Billie I believe took a lot of singing lessons.
actually the training she had as a kid was just in a children's choir, she was naturally a good vocalist Finneas always said he didn't had to correct her vocals even when she was 13-14, you can see her live performances she was very good even then. She did decided to get a vocal coach I believe in 2022 or 2023, her voice was completely matured and she felt she could improve. and she did . she explained to in a interview and she values it a lot: https://youtube.com/shorts/uki9TVUok54?si=wVjBX1En7QZJccfr
She's not.
She's got some talent in things but not enough to be a superstar. She's got Beyoncé levels of marketing but Donald Trump's level of talent.
I will say this.
She is, perhaps, the most talented marketer in history.
People give her a lot more leeway because she's the embodiment of the white American feminine ideal.
I think this conversation is actually very nuanced - she represents the patriarchy. The mediocrity of white women that’s celebrated ad nauseum in media across so many generations. She IS nothing special. Nothing about her is special besides her parents and their determination to make her famous and her marketing. This is why in the 40s and 50s when rock and roll came up black people were saying hey, this is actually a rip off of our delta blues music etc. that we’ve using to communicate and worship for years. defending her means being able to defend success at the hands of others and defending the insane amount of privilege she has and was born into. Scratching your head at it is inconsequential and I think that’s why people defend her like they do. They want what she has and they want to uphold the power structures that make it possible imo. Just my two cents tho lol.
She's talented at staying relevant, tearing other women down & getting millions of people to be obsessed with her. Music wise? Her lyrics have always reminded me of how I used to write in my diary when I was 13. So I guess to a lot of young girls & women who grew up listening to her it's relatable. Fortunately by the time she became a mega star I was already in high-school and her music was too immature for my taste. (But I knew several girls in my grade that LOVED her)
Personally I liked a few songs over the years. Never anything worth playing on repeat or anything, but that could be said about the majority of more modernized pop music in America. I've never been a fan so I was surprised to be recommended this sub last month, but it's been fun to read all this new info I've never came across before.
Surface level pop with catchy hooks is all Im giving her credit for. Money takes care of the rest. Since she is a billionaire she has access to all the fancy tools, ghost writers, music teachers one can get.
She started in Country and I hope that's where he ends up. She has not grown professionally in pop when a lot of the music is watered down and made in a box. In country she will have to grow or die(so to speak) and it would the best thing for her. imo she left country too soon and because of that didn't learn to be a true artist.
As big as she is now, think of how big she would be if she stayed in country after finally getting accepted for her talent. Now she is just another pop star who is beginning to blend in with all the other pop stars never truly sticking out.
You heard that old saying “a good salesperson can sell ice to the Eskimos”? That’s her PR team.
I read somewhere that one of her dad's associates said exactly this about him.
She's super talented in marketing herself. She's also talented in creating beef with any woman who gets too close to her right there at the top. And she's trying to market herself as a girl's girl when she's clearly not.
Her lyrics are not even that poetic for her fans to call her the second coming of Shakespeare or something. She just has the some of the best of the best in the industry working for/with her.
Vocals wise? Not even close to iconic pop singers like Christina, Britney, Ariana, etc.
Dancing skills? Non-existent.
Song-writing? Some hits but most are misses (trying hard to sound poetic when its not)
The answer is her amazing dancing and her lyrics about men’s genitalia being creatively described as “wood”. A totally new concept that has never been thought of before
Great PR n money is her talent. I always remind ppl she started out in a time where music was repetitive and hyper sexual. N here comes taylor with a few extra words describing young love. N most important she was pure innocent n white. Also kanye made her famous.
She has hits and Grammys and that's it. She's a good artist but overrated to the max
She’s moderately talented but very determined to never go away
She makes that
Mediocre talent … fantastic marketing team.
I think of Olivia Rodrigo and notice that she does every single thing better than Taylor. She is a better singer, a better piano player and better looking. No wonder Taylor views her as an enemy
She’s a good songwriter. But she can’t really sing that much.
Her work ethic is probably second to none, while she was touring the eras tour she was also doing an album, that alone can compensate for many lacks, also she knows how to surround herself with talented people, it may sound easy but it's not, she is honest with herself enough that she has dance limitations and worked around those with the help of Mandy More and others.
She clearly has something, but working hard does not make anyone talented. In spite of her work, she can’t sing or dance well. Her singing is barely mediocre. Since reading this sub and watching videos of her, I am astonished! how she is seen as extremely talented.
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This is such a pointless argument. If you eat a cake that tastes bad but you've never personally baked a cake, does that somehow make you unqualified to say "This cake tastes extremely bad"? You still have taste buds, in the same way that I have ears and can hear that Taylor Swift is an objectively weak singer despite never personally writing a song. It's also really weird to get upset when someone says a singer is bad. If someone said my favourite band sucked I would just move on with my day, because why should I care? Me thinking Taylor Swift is a weak vocalist and a weak dancer doesn't stop YOU from enjoying her stiff flailing.
I'm just a random scroller but I've written dozens if not hundreds of songs, I just don't have a production team and money to make them into an album and market it
Neither of those things imply talent.
lol all the points made about her obsessive fans.
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