GENSOKYO’S SANZU RIVER PROBLEM
According to Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red/Ran, Ran Yakumo stated that:
"The Sanzu River is not a normal river, but one that carries away the past. This is why the actual length is different from the observed length. It is necessary to know the histories of the deceased to calculate that distance. The breadth of the river, depending on the person, can take either a mere instant to cross or a practically interminable amount of time. Humans may not know what factor determines this, but it has been said to be related to the ferryman's fee. The more you pay the ferryman, the shorter the distance. Plotting the curve of this inversely proportional function, we see that the closer to zero the ferryman receives, the closer the distance approaches infinity. Conversely, the more the ferryman is paid, the closer the distance approaches zero."
To interpret her statement:
- -The river’s actual width differs from the observed length and depends on the deceased’s history.
- -The width (D) varies inversely within the ferryman’s fee. The more you pay, the shorter the width. In other words, as payment nears zero, the width nears infinity.
- -The fee itself is an emergent quality determined by many factors, which is metaphysical.
To compute the mapping from history of the deceased to D requires many specialized rules, as stated by Aya Shameimaru in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red/Ran:
“Humans cannot bring their fortune from this world to the next when they die. That is why it seems the amount paid is determined by other factors. From here on, the calculations take into account factors such as the histories of the deceased, where several thousand formulae are needed to solve the equation.”
VARIABLES
These are the variables that would be used and what they mean.
D -- Actual Sanzu width (the time or effective distance a soul experiences while crossing). --Units: Kilometers.
𝑊 -- Effective ferryman fee (the payment that shortens crossing). --Units: Soul Currency Units (SCU) conceptual; not earthly money.
H -- History factor (a scalar summarizing how much past the soul carries). --Units: Dimensionless, 𝐻 ≥ 0.
--H ∝ W
𝛼-- scale constant (converts non-dimensional ratios into CTU). --a > 0
β>0 -- sensitivity exponent (how strongly W reduces D). --𝛽 = 1 = perfect simple inverse proportionality; 𝛽 ≠ 1 = power-law scaling.
W0 ≥ 0 -- baseline fee / regularizer (small constant to avoid division-by-zero singularities.).
η -- random residual or noise (represents the atmosphere of the river or other minor, passive factors. Could be zero for deterministic analysis.)
Variables used to define H and W:
A: attachment score (dimensionless)
R: regret/unfinished business score
M: memorial/rites performed by the living (SCU-equivalent)
S: social memory / reputation score
G: guilt / moral debt score
𝑆 = ( 𝑆1 , 𝑆2... 𝑆n ) vector of life aka history features.
Canonical Formula.
The simplest canonical formula that exactly matches Ran’s qualitative rules is:
𝐷 = 𝛼 ⋅ 𝐻 / (𝑊 + 𝑊0 )𝛽 + 𝜂
with 𝛼 > 0, 𝛽 > 0, 𝐻 ≥ 0, 𝑊 + 𝑊0 > 0.
Recommended to use 𝜂 for stochasticity (having a random probability distribution or pattern that may be analysed statistically but may not be predicted precisely). Set 𝜂 = 0 for deterministic proofs.
Behaviour: As 𝑊 increases, denominator increases → D decreases.
As W→0 and 𝑊0 = 0, denominator → 0 and 𝐷 → ∞ (which matches Ran’s statement of the river’s width is capable to reach till infinity.)
H acts multiplicatively to scale difficulty by life-history.
Proofs for Ran’s claims
For clarity, set 𝜂 = 0 for during proofs to preserve accuracy.
Claim A -- Inverse behavior: D decreases with 𝑊
Proposition A (Monotonicity). For fixed 𝐻 > 0 , 𝛼 > 0 , 𝑊0 ≥ 0 , 𝛽 > 0, the function
𝐷 ( 𝑊 ) = 𝛼 𝐻 / ( 𝑊 + 𝑊0 )𝛽
is strictly decreasing in W over 𝑊 > − 𝑊0.
Compute derivative with respect to 𝑊:
𝑑𝐷 / 𝑑𝑊 = 𝛼𝐻 ⋅ d/𝑑𝑊 ( ( 𝑊 + 𝑊0 )−𝛽 ) = 𝛼𝐻 ⋅ (−𝛽) (𝑊 + 𝑊0)−𝛽−1
Since 𝛼 > 0 , 𝐻 ≥ 0 , 𝛽 > 0 , ( 𝑊 + 𝑊0 )− 𝛽 − 1 > 0, we have
𝑑𝐷 / 𝑑𝑊 = − 𝛼𝛽𝐻 ( 𝑊 + 𝑊0 )− 𝛽 − 1 ≤ 0,
and strictly negative when 𝐻 > 0. Therefore D is strictly decreasing in 𝑊 W.
This proves the textual claim “more you pay, shorter the distance.”
Claim B -- Limits: 𝑊 → 0 gives 𝐷 → ∞; 𝑊 → ∞ gives 𝐷 → 0
Proposition B.1 (Limits). For 𝐻 > 0 , 𝛼 > 0 , 𝛽 > 0, with 𝑊0 = 0:
lim 𝑊→0+ 𝐷( 𝑊 ) = ∞ and lim 𝑊→∞ 𝐷( 𝑊 ) = 0
If 𝑊 0 = 0,
As 𝑊 → 0+, 𝑊−𝛽 → ∞ (since 𝛽 > 0 ), so 𝐷 → ∞.
As W→∞, 𝑊 −𝛽 → 0, so 𝐷 → 0
If 𝑊0 > 0 then lim 𝑊 → 0+ 𝐷 = 𝛼𝐻 / 𝑊0𝛽 (finite), but Ran’s statement implies singular behavior, thus 𝑊0 is canonically 0 for exact canon behavior.
This proves Ran’s statement that distance → ∞ as fee → 0 and distance → 0 as fee grows very large.
Claim C -- Invertibility: recover W from 𝐷
If 𝛽 > 0 and H>0, D(W) is strictly decreasing and continuous on
𝑊 > − 𝑊0, so it is invertible onto (0,∞) or (αH/W0β ,∞) if 𝑊0 > 0).
Inverse formula (explicit): For 𝜂 = 0,
𝐷 = 𝛼 𝐻 / ( 𝑊 + W0)𝛽 ⟹ W = ( 𝛼𝐻 / 𝐷 )1 / 𝛽 − 𝑊0.
(This formula is valid for 𝐷 > 0.)
To rearrange algebraically: ( 𝑊 + 𝑊0 )𝛽 = 𝛼𝐻 / 𝐷 ⇒ 𝑊 + 𝑊0 = (𝛼𝐻/𝐷 )1 / 𝛽
This can be interpreted as one can compute the required payment W to get a desired crossing D.
Claim D -- Sensitivity / elasticity
We want to quantify how sensitive D is to small fractional changes in W. Define elasticity 𝜀𝐷,𝑊 = ∂𝐷 / ∂𝑊 ⋅ 𝑊/𝐷.
Compute:
∂W / ∂D = −αβH(W+ 0 )−β−1
and
D = αH(W+W0 )−β .
Thus
εD,W = (−αβH(W+W0) −β−1 ) ⋅ W / αH(W+W0)−β = −β⋅ W / W + W0
Key observations:
If 𝑊0 = 0, εD,W = −β (constant). For β=1, a 1% increase in 𝑊 reduces D by 1%.
If 𝑊0 > 0, elasticity magnitude is smaller in the small-W regime because 𝑊 / ( 𝑊 + 𝑊0 ) < 1
This gives a clear quantitative measure of the question “how much does paying more help?”.
Constructing H and W from life-history: forms and examples
According to Aya Shameimaru’s statement, one need thousands of formulae. That’s because H and W are compressions of a very high-dimensional life narrative.
Below are the mathematically plausible constructions.
Linear aggregator (simple, interpretable) Let life features 𝑆 = ( 𝑆1 ,...., 𝑆n ) Choose non-negative weights 𝜃𝑖.
𝐻 = 𝐻0 + n∑ 𝑖 = 1 𝜃𝑖𝑆𝑖
Typical features: S1: unresolved attachments S2: number of harmed people S3: depth of grief Sn: all life features and events.
Similarly for W:
𝑊 = 𝑊0′ + m∑ j=1 𝛾𝑗M𝑗,
where Mj are memorials, rituals, atonements, social memory measures. But linearity is often not enough because life events interact nonlinearly.
Nonlinear / interaction model
One may include terms like: 𝐻 = 𝐻0 + ∑𝑖 𝜃𝑖𝑆𝑖 + ∑ 𝑖<𝑗 𝜃𝑖𝑗 𝑆𝑖𝑆𝑗 + ...
Interaction terms quickly blow up combinatorially. If 𝑛 = 20 n=20 features, the number of possible interaction subsets is 220 − 1 = 1,048,575, which is over a million so the statement ‘thousands of formulae’ is kinda mild.
Piecewise rules (cultural/legalistic) Certain cultural rules might say: if you are a priest and you performed ritual x, then your W gets a multiplier; if you committed crime y, H incurs a non-linear penalty. These are naturally encoded as case-by-case formulae.
Worked numeric examples (step-by-step arithmetic)
I will use the simple canonical case: α=1, β=1, W0=0, η=1, so D=H/W Example 1: moderate burden, moderate payment
H=3.0
W=0.5
Compute D=H/W =3.0/0.5
3.0 ÷ 0.5 6.0 D = 6.0 km
Interpretation: Because W is small, crossing is long.
Example 2: same burden, larger payment
H=3.0H
W=10.0
Compute D=3.0/10.0
So, D=0.3
0.3D = 0.3 km
PS: Large payment shortens crossing drastically.
Summary
A mathematically faithful and provable representation of Ran Yakumo’s description is:
𝐷 = 𝛼 ⋅ 𝐻 / (𝑊 + 𝑊0 )𝛽 + 𝜂
Properties proven above:
D is strictly decreasing in W (proof via derivative).
If W0 = 0, D→∞ as W→0 (limit proof).
D→0 as W→∞
Elasticity is εD,W = −β⋅W/W+W0 (so -𝛽 when W0 = 0)
D is convex in W (second derivative positive).
The complexity Ran mentions arises because H and W must be computed from high-dimensional life histories; modeling their interactions generally requires many rules or a highly-parametric function — hence “several thousand formulae” is mathematical common sense.
all of this calculating is such a pain in the ass
Now calculate the depth.
hell nah💀
Now that's cruel, OP already fried their brain doing this math
oh my, so much math
yeah, it's the pain in the ass trying to calculate the problem altogether. Guess, I can't hold my curiosity on a leash lol
Congratulations, you just earned yourself a complimentary shikigami waifu.
thanks :D
I’m not a math dude but this is badass, good work.
thank you :D
tldr
TL;DR
Ran Yakumo describes the Sanzu River’s width as not fixed, but person-dependent. (only applies to souls crossing the river via Komachi's boat)
The actual crossing distance depends on:
history factor (H) (how much unresolved “past” a soul carries)
an effective ferryman fee (W) (not earthly money, but spiritual aka karmic value).
The key rule is inverse proportionality more payment → shorter crossing,
payment nears zero, crossing distance nears infinity.
Mathematical representation of Ran's statement is
𝐷 = 𝛼 ⋅ 𝐻 / (𝑊 + 𝑊0 )𝛽 + 𝜂
D strictly decreases as W increases.
If W0=0, then D→∞ as W→0W and D→0D as W→∞
The function is invertible: you can solve for required payment
W given desired distance D.
The curve is convex: paying more gives diminishing returns aka the width shortens.
The Sanzu River’s width is mathematically an inverse function where a soul’s unresolved life burden (H or History) is divided by its effective spiritual payment(W+ 𝑊0), and the complexity lies in converting a whole soul's life into variables.
Thanks for shortening it, my brain almost blew up after reading all of those.
That's cool but ain't reading allat🥱
I don’t know how, I don’t know why but I’m gonna f(x) dx it!!
[Delphi.exe has stopped responding]
Interesting work. I have a few questions.
I don't understand the relationship of W and H. I'd assume W is a function of H but I don't understand what H's role in the final expression is.
What from the original text motivates claims of invertibility and elasticity?
That's some really good questions :D
Is W a function of H?
Not necessarily. They are related, but they play different roles in Ran’s statement.
According to Aya Shameimaru from Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red/Ran, she stated that:
This means that one need to know the histories of the deceased to calculate the distance.
And according to Ran Yakumo, she stated that:
Which means that the distance is related to the ferryman’s fee, and explicitly describes an inverse proportional function between fee and distance
And, Aya Shameimaru stated that
So, this means that earthly wealth doesn’t carry over, so the fee is determined by “other factors.”
I assume there’s two conceptually distinct steps:
So,
They may share inputs, but neither is defined as a function of the other in the statement.
Formally, it’s more accurate to say:
Same inputs, different outputs.
2. Then what is H’s role in the final expression?
H acts as a scaling factor on the inverse function.
Ran stated:
That statement alone means the distance cannot depend only on the fee.
Two souls paying the same amount may still have very different crossings.
Mathematically, this means:
That’s why H appears multiplicatively:
D = α⋅ H/W, where W is (𝑊 + 𝑊0 )𝛽 + 𝜂
If you removed H, then:
So H encodes the person-specific baseline difficulty.
4. What motivates invertibility from the text?
Invertibility is presumed to exist according Ran’s statement:
An inverse proportional function is:
Such functions are:
Meaning:
Ran doesn’t say this explicitly, but by naming the function type, she commits to its mathematical properties.
5. What motivates elasticity?
Elasticity just measures how fast the distance changes when you change the fee.
The claim comes from Ran’s statement:
Which means the more you pay, the shorter the distance.
And her statement here is directional and it describes rate behavior:
Claim A brings me ptsd from my days doing Lyapunov stability analysis
Ran, is that you?
no i'm hieda :)
With that profile pic and that username. I’m sure whatever you’re saying is correct
i feel like cirno
The protagonists fly over the Sanzu River without paying any kind of toll or being dead in WBaWC. Did they fly an infinite distance in a finite period of time? I believe they did so before with Kaguya’s infinite corridor.
Well, for this problem, it only applies to souls that are crossing the Sanzu River via Komachi's boat. And, maybe the river's width would only stretch if the soul travels via Komachi's boat. The protagonists didn't flew an infinite distance due to the fact that the river's width's nature is always finite to a certain distance. This means that the river's width only fluctuate with the boat as it's factor.
Powerscalers in shambles
But, the truth is, we would never know how long is the river's width exactly.
Maybe, the river was in a state where it wouldn't have it's width elongate this whole time aka it has a constant width, and it would only elongate when the soul ride's on Komachi's boat, triggering the fluctuation of the river's width.
Doesnt Kutaka let them fly over it? I assume she just told komachi ahead of time to make it have a finite distance.
If you didn't use a LLM for this OP, this is incredibly based lmao
well, i just don't lol, it takes me 2 months trying to figure it out
Bro. The sanzu river is ferried by a shinigami who can manipulate distance. It's simple space dilatation.
Yeah, i do acknowledge that Komachi Onozuka does manipulate distance but in this problem, according to Ran Yakumo's statement in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red/Ran, Komachi Onozuka just manipulated the distance with the ferryman's fee as her factor to manipulate distance.
In this problem, I represented the shinigami aka Komachi as the fee itself, cause Ran stated that
Imagine this, if this problem was in fact, just a simple space dilation, this would mean:
The statement where this problem is just a simple space dilation was clearly contradicting Ran's statement cuz Ran stated that
Also, Ran stated that
Which means that the distance follows an inverse proportional function with respect to the fee not the ferryman that can stretch space on her own will.
And, Ran also stated that
Ran frames the distance as a law-like behaviour, not a discretionary act. And, if the distance were purely under ferryman control, infinite distance at zero payment would only be a choice, not a mathematical inevitability.
Komachi could just mess with the souls trying to cross the river by manipulating the distance using her powers by her own whim, but that just risking an another ass whooping by Eiki.