Not a full one of course, there are millions of Eldians outside the walls oppressed by Marley and other nations. Erwin would've done a more strategic rumbling.
But I doubt Erwin would care much for the Eldians beyond the wall. By and large, those people hate the Paradis Eldians thanks to a century of propaganda. Hell, the Fall of Wall Maria and the devastation of Trotsk was directly at the hands of such Eldian traitors.
Erwin may have some sympathies for these abandoned Eldians. He may try and recruit them to his cause and eventually create an intelligence agency or other organisation using those few Paradis sympathisers to keep eyes on the foreign powers.
But I assume Erwin would be more Stalin and less Trotsky. Rather than focusing on saving ALL Eldians (Trotsky style “world” revolutionary) he’d likely be a realistic pragmatic focused on developing the sole Eldian nation (Stalin style “nationalist” revolutionary).
If necessity demanded it, I believe Erwin would not hesitate to order a Full Rumbling (100%). But I think he’d more likely pursue the goal of Eldian Empire 2.0 (crush all global armies and industries, have all governments pledge allegiance to Paradis. This paves the way for a Pax Paradis global hegemony.)
Erwin would've tried to save Eldians beyond the wall AT LEAST. for a rumbling to happen Eren would need to get in touch with Zeke or have Historia be a titan—And Erwin would never trust Zeke at all and would likely have him captured and the beast titan be fed to Historia. With Historia as a royal blooded Shifter, Erwin would've convinced her to "unbrainwash" all the Eldians outside the walls using the titan powers and strategically destroy parts of the world such as major cities, military bases, ports etc.
And Erwin might've even had Eren be fed to someone, because he would not allow someone like Eren to have fully unrestricted god-like powers.
Youre sooooo wrong. He wouldn't be a paradis or eldian nationalist, his whole character is centered around belief that humanity is huge. He would immidiately become "humanity nationalist" and try every possible way to solve the conflict without rumbling.
If necessity demanded it, I believe Erwin would not hesitate to order a Full Rumbling (100%). But I think he’d more likely pursue the goal of Eldian Empire 2.0 (crush all global armies and industries, have all governments pledge allegiance to Paradis. This paves the way for a Pax Paradis global hegemony.)
Yea and then he renames liberio into Erwingrad
What a way to view to understand Erwin smh
Bro self declared himself as onedimentional slave to his dream of proving his father right and you think he is going to do 180 and do some king fritz shit. Erwin was never power hungry, if you think he was you read/watched w ur ass. But I guess what you're saying he would do is not that different from what I think his plan C would be, I just don't imagine it as subjugation. More like a landgrab from Marley and a massive population exchange while creating a united nations of sorts, not fritz empire 2.0
He is never ordering 100% rumbling as he would betray himself by doing that, as he would become "humanity's traitor" in his father's and in his own eyes.
What even is a “humanity nationalist”? No such thing exists irl. Closest thing would be a “humanist” I suppose, but as a Military Leader whose sent men to die, that doesn’t fit Erwins established character either.
Erwin is a multifaceted character so sure he’d lean towards multiple different plans.
But he also was willing to do whatever it took to win. We see this in his final glorious moments when he abandoned his personal ambitions for the sake of military necessity. He’s a cunning and ruthless man when need be. A hero. But still a realist pragmatist (albeit with a hidden childhood dream).
Erwin already knows that some humans exist beyond the wall. I believe he’s entertained the notion in some of his earlier talks about “the enemy beyond the walls” or by simply fighting the Female Titan and knowing about the other 2 Titan Shifters.
Yet Erwin still stood prepared to fight these traitors to humanity (Paradis). That’s no naive humanist. That’s a Leader willing to fight as required.
I’m not saying Erwin would be a insane Dictator as Stalin is said to be by some. My comparison was strictly about the concept of “infinite revolution/struggle vs pragmatic/defined revolution/struggle” which is well understood via the Trotsky and Stalin analogy irl. That is as far as my comparison went.
Sure Erwin won’t want needless war. He’d try and save “everyone” as peace is great for business and costs no human soldiers lives.
But Erwin is merely 1 man. He’s not a miracle worker. He’ll likely come across the same entrenched global obstacles as the Hange Lead Scouts did. Erwin will be stuck with the same situation and calculations as them. It will likely once again come down to “Do nothing = die eventually as Titans lose potency. Partial Rumbling to buy time and maybe that works. Full Rumbling which will definitely work as no enemies beyond the walls= no foreign threats by definition”.
You seem to think Erwin and his father “loved” humanity , they just had a theory and wanted to prove it , in the conversation shown by the OP Erwin recognizes that the outside world might be a threat but he still wants to prove his father right
The Eldian Empire is what started this whole mess. Don’t think he’d go for it. “Pax whatever” is a propaganda term. Every allegedly peace promoting empire was just never threatened by any of the wars it waged. Ask the Gauls how peaceful Pax Romana was
I mean it's a matter of perspective, so I don't agree that it's completely a propaganda term... China is a great example. It been able to prosper for most of it's history, because it's been united. Same can't be said about disunited Europe
That's offtopic tho lol
The Eldian Empire is what started this whole mess
I agree with this. Flotch was happy to follow in king Fritz steps and make empire 2.0. Erwin would 100% aim for learning from history and doing the opposite
Oh yeah, much love to China, but you don’t hear about “Pax China”. The Pax thing is a western thing to justify the existence of blood thirsty empires. Not like I’m saying there isn’t violence in China, but the structure there has never resembled a western empire as far as I know.
Empires are empires, man, nothing makes them western or eastern. There are differences here and there ofc but the concept, the structure of power and purpose is the same. So "pax" concept can be applied to any empire. Can agree to disagree here if u want, but I hope u catch my drift
that was the original plan with zeke. start a small scale rumbling and ward off enemies. eren took it too far by just cutting to the chase and eliminating everyone
He was willing to sacrifice many inside the wall during the fight with Anne and same against Zeke. He is very focused on his goals and for all the scouts that have died. He would definitely support the Rumbling, otherwise all of the people who have died under him and for the Eldians living inside the wall who wanted to be free would have died for nothing.
No way of knowing. Only headcannons. Since he didn't have even 5% of information about the history of the world. But certainly he would sympathize with the greater non-eldian humanity, same way hange did, as someone who spent most of his life facing titan horror.
He would probably go straight for Willy, negociate with him, leader to leader. If that fails he will try to collect titan power and takeover/pacify Marley. Only if that failed would he unleash partial rambling. Ain't no way he ever commits to full rumbling, destroying his selfish dream - evidence that his father was right. His father was an intellectual, Erwin full well knew his dad would not approve of a massacre of humanity behind the walls no matter how justified. And for Erwin honoring his father was his whole purpose.
Let alone, don't forget he was very politically sharp. And had all the inside knowledge about the humanity behind wars politics. He understood the conflict is inevitable as long as two humans existed, entire history of paradis being the evidence. Therefore he wouldn't be burdened by idea that if paradis is left only one standing, "cycle of hatered" would be ended anyhow. The way flotch was
To think he would react exactly as flotch did, is an insult to Erwin's character, and kinda screams "I don't understand Erwin"
But Floch doesn't think the cycle of hatred will somehow stop, considering how he agreed to Kiyomi's words. What I think he believes in is that, if violence erupted in the walls, it'll be a different matter outside of the 2000 year old cycle. Eldians wouldn't be killed because they're simply eldians.
Well, maybe youre right. But I don't think you are, since, Eren no doubt was convincing him with the same arguments that he was convincing Historia - "bury civilization that began cycle of hatered" or whatever he said.
But, even if u right, my main point is that whatever flotch is thinking about the effects of paradis being the only humanity left - Erwin is not thinking that, as he isn't a maximalist idealistic teenager flotch is. He knew that even threat of titans didn't make humans any less flawed and selfish. Naturally without a threat humanity wouldn't do any better. Rambling would only kill off humanity's diversity, and leave it in exact same state. Flotch never could understand this due to his life experience, but Erwin, fuelled by his daddy issues bias AND his life experience was perfectly positioned to understand this
Floch only really considered that possibility after the rumbling and not fully in the way Kiyomi meant. He identified it as that possibility requiring him to eliminate any small form of dissent before things grew even if they weren't an active threat, he would just go on an interior purge as seen with the volunteers, then the Hizuru engineers, and then anyone else who isn't fully on board the same way fascists always work. He was about to become the violence inside the walls, but because it was him on top he didn't see the injustice or identify it as the same sort of problem.
If he had made it to the basement, he would have gotten the evidence. Killing everyone off doesn't erase that, so that point makes no sense.
Erwin relentlessly kills people - he massacred Paradis' military just so he could be in the basement, regardless of if it helped 'humanity' or not. If not orchestrating the deaths of soldiers and civilians was the way to 'honour' his father, then Erwin failed to do that a long time ago. So that point makes no sense.
'Politically sharp' - he gambles the lives of everyone on Paradis on a hunch his dad had. His dad turned out to be correct, but Erwin admits that he was willing to let everyone die just to have a certain answer. That "skill" will hardly translate to the world stage.
idk why people think Erwin could magically solve the oppression of his own people, or that he'd be interested in doing so. Isayama made a point that once Erwin had achieved his dream, he'd become lazy and have nothing to fight for. Erwin knowing that conflict would never end, proves that he'd find the situation hopeless. He achieved his dream, so he'd be done.
Killing everyone off doesn't erase that, so that point makes no sense.
Are you deadass??? Killing everyone off literally resets the history. Makes whole of humanity solely consist of titan-human hybrids.
What do you think is gonna be thought to kids? How the humanity was bravely murdered by brave paladins dwellers?? No, new fake history is going to be made.
You're deadass saying this doesn't "erase evidence" that humanity lived outside the walls? Cmooon there, be serious :)
If not orchestrating the deaths of soldiers and civilians was the way to 'honour' his father, then Erwin failed to do that a long time ago
What? I don't understand wtf u mean here at all... Erwin was always going to honor his father, and his father was just convinced humanity lives outside. How is according to you, killing civilians and soldiers to prove his father right - makes Erwin fail his father? It's not me who don't make any sense it's u...
Politically sharp' - he gambles the lives of everyone on Paradis on a hunch his dad had
Ok you must be trolling at this point. This is obviously not what I meant. He is politically sharp the way commander pixies was, philosophical way. Idk how tf u are reading what I wrote. I write directly what I mean by this - understanding of human conflict
idk why people think Erwin could magically solve the oppression of his own people, or that he'd be interested in doing so
Finally I paragraph from you that makes sense. But I never said I think this, the way u describe it. Its just likely that he would because he'd be brought back to live and feel responsibility for it, not unlike Armin did.
Isayama made a point that once Erwin had achieved his dream, he'd become lazy and have nothing to fight for. Erwin knowing that conflict would never end, proves that he'd find the situation hopeless. He achieved his dream, so he'd be done.
I actually agree with you, but there is also no denying Erwin had a shitton of energy. And being resurrected would feel like a second life to him. There is also no denying he'd achieve his dream and possibly become depressed that the humanity he was hoping to find hated his guts. If we theorize like that i think it's 50/50 coin toss between a rejuvenated Erwin who would now, after achieving his dream, would try to protect it (and the only way you do that is by solving the conflict) and between him becoming simply depressed as fuck and becoming drunkard/commit suicide by being eaten. But I think one of those 50% chances is more likely lol, and it's not the depressed one
And ofc Erwin never cared for humanity, only about his selfish dream. But after having a second chance to live and getting the answers, he is definitely going to want to know even more answers. And, as he never knew and couldn't even imagine humanity as it was, he could never care for it. So it's not a valid argument at all - that he didn't care for humanity. Whose to say after seeing different races, cultures and landscapes he doesn't fall in love with all that and simply fight to preserve humanity, the humanity his dad envisioned btw.
In any case whether he commits suicide or decides to solve conflict he is never doing rambling because that resets history and creates people like his father - honest folk forces to teach fake history
The point is, he'd get his confirmation that humans did exist outside the walls, and that was what his father was killed for. If Erwin chooses to kill those people, it doesn't remove the fact from his brain that they existed. That's what mattered to him - he just wanted to know. At no point was he ever wanting to broadcast his father's unjust murder to the rest of the island. What he decides to tell future generations, is up to him.
I was referring to your point that Erwin's father 'would not agree to the massacre of humanity'. Erwin had already orchestrated the deaths of civilians in Stohess, he also relentlessly killed his comrades for the sake of his own selfish dream. Therefore, if his father disapproves of murder and apparently values all human life, Erwin has already failed his father in that regard.
All of Erwin's actions are based on how he can get to the basement, therefore all of his political choices and strategies - which really just boils down to killing his own people, or risking his own people's extinction - is motivated purely by that selfish dream. Without that dream to power Erwin, he would struggle - much like all the other characters - to talk or action the Paradisians out of their own oppression.
Erwin would not feel any responsibility for it, because he never cared about humanity in the first place. Similar to Armin, who became quite complacent after seeing the ocean (achieving his dream), and began going 'along with the flow' of the situation around him.
The energy Erwin had came solely from his dream to prove his father right. Once he completed that, he'd have no energy to save his people from oppression - a goal that, as we saw, was impossible to do. It's certainly not a 50/50 of what Erwin would become, since Erwin is just a character and many outcomes are therefore possible. Erwin recognised conflict would last forever, he knew there were people beyond the walls attempting to genocide Paradis, so he wouldn't be surprised that the outside world was so hostile. What Erwin's more likely to do is retire, and kick the problem down the road to someone else like Hange. Perhaps he'd give some advice, but it'd be no doubt as half-hearted and vague as 'Eliminate threats'. If he inherited the Colossal Titan, he'd be more likely to go along with Zeke's plan, since he'll die within 13 years so what should he care about the rest of the island?
Erwin would have all the answers he needs. What humanity did his father envision? I don't remember the manga going into this? Erwin doesn't care about his own people - as he told Zackley, he was willing to push Paradis into civil war and therefore extinction, so his father's supposed 'love' for humanity must not be shared by Erwin. He's not suddenly going to open his heart to a world that is genocidal towards him. But, ok, maybe he falls in love with some random person from another culture, and I guess he'd therefore abandon Paradis. You can really hc anything, but Erwin's canon character would never resolve the oppression, and he wouldn't have any ambition to do it either. That's the whole reason why he was killed off.
That's what mattered to him - he just wanted to know
Nope that's just a direct misunderstanding of Erwin's character. He wanted to not only know for himself but also to proove his father right. He doesn't need to prove his father is right to himself, he already feels that's he is right. He wants to proove to everyone else
What he decides to tell future generations, is up to him.
Exactly. So after considering this fact. He is never going to do full rambling because that would mean rewriting history and becoming what he always hated
I was referring to your point that Erwin's father 'would not agree to the massacre of humanity'.
Ok then I understood you correctly, my answer still the same
Erwin had already
Individual deaths are not the same as genocides
if his father disapproves of murder and apparently values all human life
I never said he was. I said that his father dissaproves of genocides. Which he 100% is.
If your argument is that Erwin broke some kind of "killing people virginity" which would make it ok in his mind to murder few hundred million more... Then you're wrong and I think after I phrased it like this you understand it right? It's a giant leap to make for Erwin. He ain't doing that, because he would hold his father's humanist ideals close to heart. He can break them for his only life goal, but genocide is - abandoning them.
Without that dream to power Erwin, he would struggle
Yes, and this still doesn't mean he ops for an easiest way out, which full rumbling is.
Erwin would not feel any responsibility for it, because he never cared about humanity in the first place
We can't know this because Erwin never knew of existence of humanity in the first place. It's something that he would learn simultaneously with the completing of his one and only dream. Whose to say it doesn't reignite childlike wonder about wanting to learn more and more about the world??????
save his people from oppression - a goal that, as we saw, was impossible to do
That's because there was no leader on paradis. And frankly Eren was very quick to sabotage the whole thing. Erwin would be forced to being a leader. And there is 0% probability he's going to be discouraged from listening to some eldian anti-paradis dork speaking at the Parliament.
What Erwin's more likely to do is retire, and kick the problem down the road to someone else like Hange
I agree w you tbh. Let's say he retires. You're just describing my alcoholic depressed scenario in more detail. But srsly? Don't you think there is a significant chance Erwin would just want to travel around the world, learn more about it? Perhaps he wouldn't have a drive to solve the conflict, but
but it'd be no doubt as half-hearted and vague as 'Eliminate threats'.
This?? Press x to doubt. I think his advice would be to explicitly to advice against full rumbling, as that would slightly inconvinient his selfish goals of hot white boy summer travel
Erwin would have all the answers he needs.
Erwin would have all the answers Erwin's dad needed to be proven right!! But whether he gets all the answers Erwin needs is an open question. After all didn't basement info created almost as many questions as it gave answers??? I can certainly see Erwin at least willing to speak to willy or some other marlean elites just for his own selfish curiosity
What humanity did his father envision? I don't remember the manga going into this?
That's the point!!! He didn't envision much because he didn't know. And guess what? Grisha didn't know shit neither, living in ghetto all his life. So it might genuelly be 50/50 or rather 30solvingconflict/60retiredtravelerrearcher/10retireddepressedeatmeplzmess
He's not suddenly going to open his heart to a world that is genocidal towards him
Well, as politically aware as he is, and familiar with titan horror, I think Erwin is uniquely positioned to understand the Marlean side of cycle of hate, actually. Moreso than any other chatacter.
You can really hc anything, but Erwin's canon character would never resolve the oppression, and he wouldn't have any ambition to do it either
Well I'm glad we had this interesting discussion about what Erwin might do and think. But let me just remind you - this thread is about whether Erwin would be behind full rumbling. And most of titanfolk somehow holds an opinion that he would. You clearly don't, so that's cool I guess :) You strawmanned me a little, since I never really was going to die on the hill that Erwin would solve the conflict, it's merely one of possibilities. But I dont mind, like I said fun interesting discussion. My main point is the direct answer to OP - Erwin would never support full rumbling. That's just something that's hard coded in his character. He isn't a bloodthirsty edgy teenager like flotch. And he isn't a simple paladins citizen that gets his opinion from newspapers
Among the plans laid out, I think Erwin would support the 50 year plan as a fallback plan. He'll probably try to make some allies abroad first before invoking the former.
However if he had to choose between Paradis being genocided and the outside world being genocided he would absolutely save Paradis as a first port of call.
This rewriting/undoing/resetting history argument is, really, just a nail in the coffin of the "Erwin would support the rumbling" myth. It's so obvious that rambling leads to creation of fake history, which in turn means Erwin would create people like his father - honest folk forced to teach fake history. Erwin is smart enough to understand that and never go for that
You and me are gonna get a lot of cope downvotes for this 🫡 and (probably) 0 response
He literally chooses Paradis over finding out what happens in the basement because the weight of the soldiers who sacrificed their hearts was too heavy.
He literally gives his life so that those who come after might succeed.
I'm glad isayama killed erwin off. If he hadn't then he would've gotten lobotomized
Not a full one of course, there are millions of Eldians outside the walls oppressed by Marley and other nations. Erwin would've done a more strategic rumbling.
Erwin was not a Freedom nutjob the way Eren was.
But I doubt Erwin would care much for the Eldians beyond the wall. By and large, those people hate the Paradis Eldians thanks to a century of propaganda. Hell, the Fall of Wall Maria and the devastation of Trotsk was directly at the hands of such Eldian traitors.
Erwin may have some sympathies for these abandoned Eldians. He may try and recruit them to his cause and eventually create an intelligence agency or other organisation using those few Paradis sympathisers to keep eyes on the foreign powers.
But I assume Erwin would be more Stalin and less Trotsky. Rather than focusing on saving ALL Eldians (Trotsky style “world” revolutionary) he’d likely be a realistic pragmatic focused on developing the sole Eldian nation (Stalin style “nationalist” revolutionary).
If necessity demanded it, I believe Erwin would not hesitate to order a Full Rumbling (100%). But I think he’d more likely pursue the goal of Eldian Empire 2.0 (crush all global armies and industries, have all governments pledge allegiance to Paradis. This paves the way for a Pax Paradis global hegemony.)
Erwin would've tried to save Eldians beyond the wall AT LEAST. for a rumbling to happen Eren would need to get in touch with Zeke or have Historia be a titan—And Erwin would never trust Zeke at all and would likely have him captured and the beast titan be fed to Historia. With Historia as a royal blooded Shifter, Erwin would've convinced her to "unbrainwash" all the Eldians outside the walls using the titan powers and strategically destroy parts of the world such as major cities, military bases, ports etc.
And Erwin might've even had Eren be fed to someone, because he would not allow someone like Eren to have fully unrestricted god-like powers.
Youre sooooo wrong. He wouldn't be a paradis or eldian nationalist, his whole character is centered around belief that humanity is huge. He would immidiately become "humanity nationalist" and try every possible way to solve the conflict without rumbling.
Yea and then he renames liberio into Erwingrad
What a way to view to understand Erwin smh
Bro self declared himself as onedimentional slave to his dream of proving his father right and you think he is going to do 180 and do some king fritz shit. Erwin was never power hungry, if you think he was you read/watched w ur ass. But I guess what you're saying he would do is not that different from what I think his plan C would be, I just don't imagine it as subjugation. More like a landgrab from Marley and a massive population exchange while creating a united nations of sorts, not fritz empire 2.0
He is never ordering 100% rumbling as he would betray himself by doing that, as he would become "humanity's traitor" in his father's and in his own eyes.
What even is a “humanity nationalist”? No such thing exists irl. Closest thing would be a “humanist” I suppose, but as a Military Leader whose sent men to die, that doesn’t fit Erwins established character either.
Erwin is a multifaceted character so sure he’d lean towards multiple different plans.
But he also was willing to do whatever it took to win. We see this in his final glorious moments when he abandoned his personal ambitions for the sake of military necessity. He’s a cunning and ruthless man when need be. A hero. But still a realist pragmatist (albeit with a hidden childhood dream).
Erwin already knows that some humans exist beyond the wall. I believe he’s entertained the notion in some of his earlier talks about “the enemy beyond the walls” or by simply fighting the Female Titan and knowing about the other 2 Titan Shifters.
Yet Erwin still stood prepared to fight these traitors to humanity (Paradis). That’s no naive humanist. That’s a Leader willing to fight as required.
I’m not saying Erwin would be a insane Dictator as Stalin is said to be by some. My comparison was strictly about the concept of “infinite revolution/struggle vs pragmatic/defined revolution/struggle” which is well understood via the Trotsky and Stalin analogy irl. That is as far as my comparison went.
Sure Erwin won’t want needless war. He’d try and save “everyone” as peace is great for business and costs no human soldiers lives.
But Erwin is merely 1 man. He’s not a miracle worker. He’ll likely come across the same entrenched global obstacles as the Hange Lead Scouts did. Erwin will be stuck with the same situation and calculations as them. It will likely once again come down to “Do nothing = die eventually as Titans lose potency. Partial Rumbling to buy time and maybe that works. Full Rumbling which will definitely work as no enemies beyond the walls= no foreign threats by definition”.
You seem to think Erwin and his father “loved” humanity , they just had a theory and wanted to prove it , in the conversation shown by the OP Erwin recognizes that the outside world might be a threat but he still wants to prove his father right
The Eldian Empire is what started this whole mess. Don’t think he’d go for it. “Pax whatever” is a propaganda term. Every allegedly peace promoting empire was just never threatened by any of the wars it waged. Ask the Gauls how peaceful Pax Romana was
Or Iraq ppl how peaceful pax Americana was 🤫
I mean it's a matter of perspective, so I don't agree that it's completely a propaganda term... China is a great example. It been able to prosper for most of it's history, because it's been united. Same can't be said about disunited Europe
That's offtopic tho lol
I agree with this. Flotch was happy to follow in king Fritz steps and make empire 2.0. Erwin would 100% aim for learning from history and doing the opposite
Oh yeah, much love to China, but you don’t hear about “Pax China”. The Pax thing is a western thing to justify the existence of blood thirsty empires. Not like I’m saying there isn’t violence in China, but the structure there has never resembled a western empire as far as I know.
Empires are empires, man, nothing makes them western or eastern. There are differences here and there ofc but the concept, the structure of power and purpose is the same. So "pax" concept can be applied to any empire. Can agree to disagree here if u want, but I hope u catch my drift
Just a little Rumbling, as a treat.
that was the original plan with zeke. start a small scale rumbling and ward off enemies. eren took it too far by just cutting to the chase and eliminating everyone
He was willing to sacrifice many inside the wall during the fight with Anne and same against Zeke. He is very focused on his goals and for all the scouts that have died. He would definitely support the Rumbling, otherwise all of the people who have died under him and for the Eldians living inside the wall who wanted to be free would have died for nothing.
He was ready to sacrifice the few for the rest of humanity inside the walls.
Erwin understands sacrifice all too well but he carries the immense weight of it differently to Eren. I imagine he would be indifferent.
No way of knowing. Only headcannons. Since he didn't have even 5% of information about the history of the world. But certainly he would sympathize with the greater non-eldian humanity, same way hange did, as someone who spent most of his life facing titan horror.
He would probably go straight for Willy, negociate with him, leader to leader. If that fails he will try to collect titan power and takeover/pacify Marley. Only if that failed would he unleash partial rambling. Ain't no way he ever commits to full rumbling, destroying his selfish dream - evidence that his father was right. His father was an intellectual, Erwin full well knew his dad would not approve of a massacre of humanity behind the walls no matter how justified. And for Erwin honoring his father was his whole purpose.
Let alone, don't forget he was very politically sharp. And had all the inside knowledge about the humanity behind wars politics. He understood the conflict is inevitable as long as two humans existed, entire history of paradis being the evidence. Therefore he wouldn't be burdened by idea that if paradis is left only one standing, "cycle of hatered" would be ended anyhow. The way flotch was
To think he would react exactly as flotch did, is an insult to Erwin's character, and kinda screams "I don't understand Erwin"
But Floch doesn't think the cycle of hatred will somehow stop, considering how he agreed to Kiyomi's words. What I think he believes in is that, if violence erupted in the walls, it'll be a different matter outside of the 2000 year old cycle. Eldians wouldn't be killed because they're simply eldians.
Well, maybe youre right. But I don't think you are, since, Eren no doubt was convincing him with the same arguments that he was convincing Historia - "bury civilization that began cycle of hatered" or whatever he said.
But, even if u right, my main point is that whatever flotch is thinking about the effects of paradis being the only humanity left - Erwin is not thinking that, as he isn't a maximalist idealistic teenager flotch is. He knew that even threat of titans didn't make humans any less flawed and selfish. Naturally without a threat humanity wouldn't do any better. Rambling would only kill off humanity's diversity, and leave it in exact same state. Flotch never could understand this due to his life experience, but Erwin, fuelled by his daddy issues bias AND his life experience was perfectly positioned to understand this
Floch only really considered that possibility after the rumbling and not fully in the way Kiyomi meant. He identified it as that possibility requiring him to eliminate any small form of dissent before things grew even if they weren't an active threat, he would just go on an interior purge as seen with the volunteers, then the Hizuru engineers, and then anyone else who isn't fully on board the same way fascists always work. He was about to become the violence inside the walls, but because it was him on top he didn't see the injustice or identify it as the same sort of problem.
If he had made it to the basement, he would have gotten the evidence. Killing everyone off doesn't erase that, so that point makes no sense.
Erwin relentlessly kills people - he massacred Paradis' military just so he could be in the basement, regardless of if it helped 'humanity' or not. If not orchestrating the deaths of soldiers and civilians was the way to 'honour' his father, then Erwin failed to do that a long time ago. So that point makes no sense.
'Politically sharp' - he gambles the lives of everyone on Paradis on a hunch his dad had. His dad turned out to be correct, but Erwin admits that he was willing to let everyone die just to have a certain answer. That "skill" will hardly translate to the world stage.
idk why people think Erwin could magically solve the oppression of his own people, or that he'd be interested in doing so. Isayama made a point that once Erwin had achieved his dream, he'd become lazy and have nothing to fight for. Erwin knowing that conflict would never end, proves that he'd find the situation hopeless. He achieved his dream, so he'd be done.
Are you deadass??? Killing everyone off literally resets the history. Makes whole of humanity solely consist of titan-human hybrids.
What do you think is gonna be thought to kids? How the humanity was bravely murdered by brave paladins dwellers?? No, new fake history is going to be made.
You're deadass saying this doesn't "erase evidence" that humanity lived outside the walls? Cmooon there, be serious :)
What? I don't understand wtf u mean here at all... Erwin was always going to honor his father, and his father was just convinced humanity lives outside. How is according to you, killing civilians and soldiers to prove his father right - makes Erwin fail his father? It's not me who don't make any sense it's u...
Ok you must be trolling at this point. This is obviously not what I meant. He is politically sharp the way commander pixies was, philosophical way. Idk how tf u are reading what I wrote. I write directly what I mean by this - understanding of human conflict
Finally I paragraph from you that makes sense. But I never said I think this, the way u describe it. Its just likely that he would because he'd be brought back to live and feel responsibility for it, not unlike Armin did.
I actually agree with you, but there is also no denying Erwin had a shitton of energy. And being resurrected would feel like a second life to him. There is also no denying he'd achieve his dream and possibly become depressed that the humanity he was hoping to find hated his guts. If we theorize like that i think it's 50/50 coin toss between a rejuvenated Erwin who would now, after achieving his dream, would try to protect it (and the only way you do that is by solving the conflict) and between him becoming simply depressed as fuck and becoming drunkard/commit suicide by being eaten. But I think one of those 50% chances is more likely lol, and it's not the depressed one
And ofc Erwin never cared for humanity, only about his selfish dream. But after having a second chance to live and getting the answers, he is definitely going to want to know even more answers. And, as he never knew and couldn't even imagine humanity as it was, he could never care for it. So it's not a valid argument at all - that he didn't care for humanity. Whose to say after seeing different races, cultures and landscapes he doesn't fall in love with all that and simply fight to preserve humanity, the humanity his dad envisioned btw.
In any case whether he commits suicide or decides to solve conflict he is never doing rambling because that resets history and creates people like his father - honest folk forces to teach fake history
The point is, he'd get his confirmation that humans did exist outside the walls, and that was what his father was killed for. If Erwin chooses to kill those people, it doesn't remove the fact from his brain that they existed. That's what mattered to him - he just wanted to know. At no point was he ever wanting to broadcast his father's unjust murder to the rest of the island. What he decides to tell future generations, is up to him.
I was referring to your point that Erwin's father 'would not agree to the massacre of humanity'. Erwin had already orchestrated the deaths of civilians in Stohess, he also relentlessly killed his comrades for the sake of his own selfish dream. Therefore, if his father disapproves of murder and apparently values all human life, Erwin has already failed his father in that regard.
All of Erwin's actions are based on how he can get to the basement, therefore all of his political choices and strategies - which really just boils down to killing his own people, or risking his own people's extinction - is motivated purely by that selfish dream. Without that dream to power Erwin, he would struggle - much like all the other characters - to talk or action the Paradisians out of their own oppression.
Erwin would not feel any responsibility for it, because he never cared about humanity in the first place. Similar to Armin, who became quite complacent after seeing the ocean (achieving his dream), and began going 'along with the flow' of the situation around him.
The energy Erwin had came solely from his dream to prove his father right. Once he completed that, he'd have no energy to save his people from oppression - a goal that, as we saw, was impossible to do. It's certainly not a 50/50 of what Erwin would become, since Erwin is just a character and many outcomes are therefore possible. Erwin recognised conflict would last forever, he knew there were people beyond the walls attempting to genocide Paradis, so he wouldn't be surprised that the outside world was so hostile. What Erwin's more likely to do is retire, and kick the problem down the road to someone else like Hange. Perhaps he'd give some advice, but it'd be no doubt as half-hearted and vague as 'Eliminate threats'. If he inherited the Colossal Titan, he'd be more likely to go along with Zeke's plan, since he'll die within 13 years so what should he care about the rest of the island?
Erwin would have all the answers he needs. What humanity did his father envision? I don't remember the manga going into this? Erwin doesn't care about his own people - as he told Zackley, he was willing to push Paradis into civil war and therefore extinction, so his father's supposed 'love' for humanity must not be shared by Erwin. He's not suddenly going to open his heart to a world that is genocidal towards him. But, ok, maybe he falls in love with some random person from another culture, and I guess he'd therefore abandon Paradis. You can really hc anything, but Erwin's canon character would never resolve the oppression, and he wouldn't have any ambition to do it either. That's the whole reason why he was killed off.
Nope that's just a direct misunderstanding of Erwin's character. He wanted to not only know for himself but also to proove his father right. He doesn't need to prove his father is right to himself, he already feels that's he is right. He wants to proove to everyone else
Exactly. So after considering this fact. He is never going to do full rambling because that would mean rewriting history and becoming what he always hated
Ok then I understood you correctly, my answer still the same
Individual deaths are not the same as genocides
I never said he was. I said that his father dissaproves of genocides. Which he 100% is.
If your argument is that Erwin broke some kind of "killing people virginity" which would make it ok in his mind to murder few hundred million more... Then you're wrong and I think after I phrased it like this you understand it right? It's a giant leap to make for Erwin. He ain't doing that, because he would hold his father's humanist ideals close to heart. He can break them for his only life goal, but genocide is - abandoning them.
Yes, and this still doesn't mean he ops for an easiest way out, which full rumbling is.
We can't know this because Erwin never knew of existence of humanity in the first place. It's something that he would learn simultaneously with the completing of his one and only dream. Whose to say it doesn't reignite childlike wonder about wanting to learn more and more about the world??????
That's because there was no leader on paradis. And frankly Eren was very quick to sabotage the whole thing. Erwin would be forced to being a leader. And there is 0% probability he's going to be discouraged from listening to some eldian anti-paradis dork speaking at the Parliament.
I agree w you tbh. Let's say he retires. You're just describing my alcoholic depressed scenario in more detail. But srsly? Don't you think there is a significant chance Erwin would just want to travel around the world, learn more about it? Perhaps he wouldn't have a drive to solve the conflict, but
This?? Press x to doubt. I think his advice would be to explicitly to advice against full rumbling, as that would slightly inconvinient his selfish goals of hot white boy summer travel
Erwin would have all the answers Erwin's dad needed to be proven right!! But whether he gets all the answers Erwin needs is an open question. After all didn't basement info created almost as many questions as it gave answers??? I can certainly see Erwin at least willing to speak to willy or some other marlean elites just for his own selfish curiosity
That's the point!!! He didn't envision much because he didn't know. And guess what? Grisha didn't know shit neither, living in ghetto all his life. So it might genuelly be 50/50 or rather 30solvingconflict/60retiredtravelerrearcher/10retireddepressedeatmeplzmess
Well, as politically aware as he is, and familiar with titan horror, I think Erwin is uniquely positioned to understand the Marlean side of cycle of hate, actually. Moreso than any other chatacter.
Well I'm glad we had this interesting discussion about what Erwin might do and think. But let me just remind you - this thread is about whether Erwin would be behind full rumbling. And most of titanfolk somehow holds an opinion that he would. You clearly don't, so that's cool I guess :) You strawmanned me a little, since I never really was going to die on the hill that Erwin would solve the conflict, it's merely one of possibilities. But I dont mind, like I said fun interesting discussion. My main point is the direct answer to OP - Erwin would never support full rumbling. That's just something that's hard coded in his character. He isn't a bloodthirsty edgy teenager like flotch. And he isn't a simple paladins citizen that gets his opinion from newspapers
Erwin didn't care about history he cared about proving his father right.
Among the plans laid out, I think Erwin would support the 50 year plan as a fallback plan. He'll probably try to make some allies abroad first before invoking the former.
Even if he didn't support it, he definitely wouldn't join the Marleyans and kill his own comrades to try and stop it.
He wouldn’t stand by while children and their father’s get murdered for reasons they’ll never know
He wouldn't support a genocide on civilians. Maybe on the military, but definitely not on the entire world.
No, he would not be as stupid as to support the undoing of history, he would become just like the people who murdered his father
"If a robber entered my house and threatened to kill my family, I'd let him, because it's better than having to kill the robber."
As if Erwin would let the outside world genocide Paradis lmao. Why the fuck would he do that.
He would have only focused on targeting the militaries of the world, not destroying it all, that goes against Erwin’s core values
True. I agree with you.
However if he had to choose between Paradis being genocided and the outside world being genocided he would absolutely save Paradis as a first port of call.
This rewriting/undoing/resetting history argument is, really, just a nail in the coffin of the "Erwin would support the rumbling" myth. It's so obvious that rambling leads to creation of fake history, which in turn means Erwin would create people like his father - honest folk forced to teach fake history. Erwin is smart enough to understand that and never go for that
You and me are gonna get a lot of cope downvotes for this 🫡 and (probably) 0 response
No, the rumbling was obviously gratuitous
No, what Erwin's doing there is playing his role. He doesn't gaf about humanity (as he goes on to say), he just wants to reach the basement.
Absolute misread of the character.
He literally chooses Paradis over finding out what happens in the basement because the weight of the soldiers who sacrificed their hearts was too heavy.
He literally gives his life so that those who come after might succeed.