Agreed. I'm not proud of something I didn't do, though I am thankful they did it. On the other hand I dont feel guilt for what others did but I am sorry that that they did it.
The guy on the left is completely right he’s just not doing a good job of articulating it. You can be proud of others so you can be proud of something you didn’t do. You can’t feel guilt for something you didn’t do because guilt implies responsibility. The guy on the right is making it out that guilt is the opposite of pride which is wrong. The word he is looking for is shame. You can feel ashamed of actions others have done.
It’s completely fine to feel pride in what your country accomplished even if you weren’t involved as you are proud of the actions people associated with you took. It’s completely fine to feel shame in what you country did even if you weren’t involved. You can feel ashamed of actions others have done. But you can’t feel guilt over them unless you were involved. Because guilt means you personally feel responsible for what happened and blame yourself. None of us engaged in the trans Atlantic slave trade so none of us should feel guilty about it. Ashamed yes but not guilty.
I think what some of you guys are missing is that it wasn’t Mehdi that brought up guilt. It was the writer who wrote “the tyranny of imaginary guilt.”
I honestly don’t know what they are talking about exactly but I gathered the context of it all.
The implication of that phrase is that white people or the British shouldn’t be burdened by guilt over slavery. It also implies that descendants of African slaves have no right to feel aggrieved. Also it removes historical disadvantages from discussion. It also flips the framing of the perspective so that white people are the victims. They are the victims now because according to the writer they have to deal with “the tyranny of imaginary guilt”.
So Mehdi was correct because he wasn’t arguing that descendants of slave owners should feel guilt. He was arguing that the writer could have written instead that the ending of slavery was a moral necessity but instead chose to write about “imaginary guilt”.
What Mehdi said about having pride in your country was just to show the logical fallacy in the writers argument. At which point the writer kept glitching and eventually just straight up had the BSOD.
Yeah, your comment “FriendOfDirutti” is what I expected the first comment to be akin to 😂 but, should I even be surprised, look at where we are now in terms of geopolitics. 🥹😂🥹
I don't believe guilt implies responsibility. I believe guilt implies blame. For example the population of slave traders and owners are to blame for slavery and should feel guilt. The responsibility for black people to repair and prosper is a shared responsibility. For example if you were to receive reparations (an acknowledgement of financial responsibility due to a century of uncompensated labor, distress and damage) a black family has a responsibility to themselves to use that money in a way to redress the generational wealth gap (I know that can never happen but maybe it starts with one generation of home ownership). My grandmother's grandma was a freed slave and my family kept the oral history of the stories, hardships and perspectives of that generation.
Responsibility can mean a few things but I did mean it as blame. Guilt is feeling shame for something you are responsible for as in you are to blame for it. Maybe it’s not as common of a use for the word responsibility. Like if I knocked over a vase you could say I was responsible for breaking it. The way you used the word responsible is perfect too. I think we are on the same page but are just reading the word differently if you know what I mean.
It's widely accepted that you can feel pride or guilt for something that someone else did provided that you have an affiliation with them. Nitpicky semantics aside it is a feeling and it is possible to have that feeling.
It's communication, the guy who says it confidently without thinking further seems to be right whereas the guy who is visibly thinking and has a hard time finding an answer that sounds coherent looks dumb.
Mehdi didn't say anything wrong, it's his opponent who didn't want to let go of "pride", because he knows he'll upset a lot of right wingers if he says they can't be proud of winning WWII.
I am proud of my country. I am also ashamed of some of our past and present actions. I am proud of my family, past and present. I do not share my fathers guilt of being a wife beater, but I do endeavour to be a better man. I shoulder some of the guilt of misogyny and the denegration of women by my forbears.That is the same sort of guilt I carry for white European enslavement of other peoples. Guilt can lead to better moral choices.
He later flipped to admiration vs pride and I think that’s appropriate. I can admonish the bad stuff and admire the good stuff. But pride and guilt are nonsense emotions for stuff you didn’t do.
Perhaps saying you can feel pride and shame for the actions of your ancestors. Guilt is a personal emotion, for one's own conduct. Shame can be foisted on others or accepted for the actions of others.
I use the term embarrassment for the negative actions of a culture that I support or take pride in, but reserve guilt for those actions that I can personally impact, like modern day slavery supported by my consumer habits.
There are a lot of families who don't feel shame for what their patriarchs did, but are nevertheless happy to inherit. "I'm not the one who stole it. But if I keep my mouth shut about what happened, they won't make me give it back."
Yeah, that's my sense as well. And I get it. During BLM I found out that my mom paid for my undergrad tuition using an inheritance she got from her grandparents (her mom died young). My grandparents owned a sharecropping farm and they had a black family working it for decades. It's entirely possible my grandparents exploited that family and gave that wealth to my mom who used it for my tuition.
I'm not rich. My degree isn't the kind that makes a ton of money. I'm on the lower end of middle class. So it's not like I can afford to find that family's descendants and give them anything back. I want to, but I've got a responsibility to my own kids too.
But it still happened. My grandparents stole money from that family. I have to live with that truth.
What I decided to do is use my degree to help others. I don't have the money, but I have an education and time. So it's now my career.
It still sucks because I feel like I'm shirking that family in particular (if they're even still around) but I'm doing what I can to balance out the universe.
I think guilt is the wrong term even though it still applies but shame is how i'd describe it. People easily acknowledge the horrible things ethnic and religious groups have gone through from Native Americans to Jewish people and support them getting reperations.
But when it comes to enslavement of Black people all of a sudden reperations is "asking too much" and people downplay slavery like their rent is due its frustrating.
I get why you don't feel personally guilty about what your ancestors did and i'm not demanding apologies that fixes nothing. But telling black people to get over slavery and racism (victim mindset etc) is very annoying no other group receives that responce so harshly
This argument is false equivalency. Guilt and pride are not different sides of the same coin, and they are used in very different contexts.
I also think this argument about semantics. What does the author regard as guilt? And what does the host believe is guilt?
Edit: the replies just confirm what the host was baiting the author on. The argument is based on what people believe guilt is, i.e what their personal meaning of what guilt is
It's a perfectly good equivalency. Wanting to be associated with something you didn't do that's seen in a positive light but not wanting to be associated with something you didn't do that's seen in a negative light.
I see your point, but I think it’s important to distinguish association from responsibility. Being proud of the greatness of a nation doesn’t mean you are responsible for it, you didn’t create it. Feeling guilt, on the other hand, comes from feeling responsible for something you did; a guilty person is responsible for their own actions. So in this sense, you can feel sorry that something negative happened, but you cannot be truly guilty for it if you had no part in causing it.
This has always been my argument on these matters, equally when people get all excited about how they beat Liverpool or ManU over the weekend.
But, I do see that those same supporters do feel something that looks like pride to me. Perhaps it's something else... But it does look like pride. Perhaps it's the pride of picking the right team? (If that makes any sense) But it seems more than that. (Aside, extra complication is that we didn't pick our ancestors)
That said. I do feel some measure of guilt that the systems around me, that I have benefited from and continue to do so, and that I do have some modest influence over... Have done terrible things. I didn't want us to invade Iraq following 9/11, but our taxes went to support that war.
I think it's more realistically joy and anger. I can be happy humans landed on the moon, I might call it pride but that would be misplaced. And I can be angry that humans commit murders, I'm not guilty I belong to the same species or gender or tribe etc.
The closer I am to the systems that created the positive/negative event and the more benefits I currently enjoy from them or support I provide them, then it's possible that guilt and pride will rightly creep in.
Then it becomes a game of describing groups so you can cherry pick the good and exclude the bad. So I might be prideful that I'm a working chap in the UK... Like those who fought the Nazis. But I'm not from a family that historically benefit from slavery... So no guilt. ... Sounds a bit gamey to me.
Sorry for the waffle... Should have thought it out and written a tldr.
Its the downplaying and defending of the horrible things nations have done thats frustrating and nobody i've seen has said Britian shouldn't be proud of defeating tbe Nazis or having love for the country in general.
You can easily be opposed to the colonialism and racism UK has done in the past and now and have love for your country which is what right wingers want people to believe is impossible.
I think that is a far easier position to hold (not saying that's a bad thing, just that it seems internally consistent)... Celebrating good stuff and berating the bad stuff.
But I think we do tend to be eager to celebrate good stuff while avoiding thinking about the bad stuff... And when we do, we say it's nowt to do with me.
Not an accusation, just a tendency in folk. And not a surprising one.
I guess if you're someone looking to tear down a colonial representative, you will be less inclined to consider the person opposite is less aware of their ancestors actions than you. And this we find a lot of ill will and bad faith arguments between would be allies.
That's what I do. I didn't get a say in where I was born and to which parents. That goes with lack of sense of belonging to a larger social group with the sense of security that it provides. You defying our basic tribal instincts. You are not patriotic, don't believe in national symbols and don't perform the rituals. That type of attitude is fine in times of peace and stability but during war or times of trouble you have to take sides or else you are Switzerland and better have mountains all around you.
There is this great Canadian musical called Come From Away. It’s about plans landing is very small Newfoundland community, how the community welcomed them, and the relationship there were made. Excellent musical if you’re into the thing.
Do I feel pride as a Canadian? No. That’s Newfoundlanders, they are like that…/the rest of us are not. And when this planes were diverted all over the country, other places didn’t do the same.
I think good for them, but I’m not proud as if I had anything to do with that.
I do think that guilt is more of a personal feeling than pride. If a buddy of mine gets a promotion I can say 'hey I'm proud of you' and mean it. If he kicks a dog, I can't say I feel guilt for it. It's definitely a false analogy.
I get what matey is saying - societal accountability can be a thing, but only to an extent. Multiple generations onwards, however, it gets pretty muddy.
It's tricky because either side of the debate can make arguments starting with 'well what if', and both sides are somewhat correct
I’m proud of my grandfather probably in much the same way he was proud of me when he saw me square dancing in elementary school, thanks a lot Mr. Ford…
Granted, he had a bit of a harder job because he had to shoot and stab Nazis to death, but still, you get the general idea. I couldn’t exactly do anything much more heroic than do-see-do properly at the time.
That’s exactly it. The effects of the economic wins from the exploitation of slaves compounded over time mean there’s still a financial aristocracy that directly benefit from the atrocities of yore.
The collective guilt could be (partly) remedied with reparations, but if you refuse to acknowledge the guilt and the fact that you’re still benefiting from it you’re just ignorant.
More importantly, since reformation was never complete and reparations and equal rights were stifled many black American majority communities are still effectively quasi-segregated and poor.
I feel like he left room for that when he said we can be responsible for it but not guilty for it… honestly feel like this was more of a gotcha line of reasoning
The guilt isn’t the point. Guilt is a feeling that tells you to learn and encourages you to make things right. You hurt because you recognize the pain your actions caused, so if you can acknowledge and process the guilt in a healthy way, you can learn to become more sensitive to others and treat them better. That’s the lesson we need to take away.
And the consequences of slavery and colonialism are far from over. Rather than going away, they have taken new forms. Making things right means ending these continuing forms of oppression, which will at least create the opportunity for a kind of justice that could last.
We can only create a just society if we are open to seeing injustice. If seeing injustice makes you feel bad, that’s a good thing - it means you’re human. If you don’t think it’s a good thing to feel bad, you probably need to learn how to process your feelings in a different way.
I think this is largely true. I think the guy on the left has a very specific definition of guilt that he’s working with, and I think that’s why he’s saying we “can’t” feel guilty (as in, it’s not possible), not that we shouldn’t. I think he really means it literally—whatever you feel about your ancestors’ despicable behavior (shame, horror, sadness), it’s not specifically guilt. I assume he means by guilt something like “the affliction of the conscience by knowledge of having sinned” which is a pretty typical Christian definition.
All that being said, he’s an absolute nincompoop if he doesn’t explain that and frame it in those terms. I can imagine someone saying, “We should feel shame, we should feel sadness, we should feel horror, and we should work to remedy the wrongs of our ancestors, but what we’re feeling is not guilt properly understood.” Even then, that would be an abstruse philosophical point that would be better delivered in a paper, rather than this adversarial debate format that seems to rely on quick sound bytes and getting in your point broadly and in a very digestible way.
Yes. If you feel proud of your ancestors accomplishments then you should also feel ashamed of the atrocities they committed. But you are not guilty of those atrocities.
Seems like a disingenuous argument on one side and a bit of an idiot on the other side, watched over by an audience that is happy to applaud what they believe to be a valid point made without any actual understanding of what has been said and what it means.
I don’t feel guilty for the actions of my ancestors, because they weren’t my actions. I am ashamed of those actions because they created and perpetuated a system of oppression. I think Hasan is splitting hairs for ratings.
Hasan is very good at debating. I see this more as a sport than a good faith discussion. So you are absolutely correct, he's saying what he has to say to get views.
This is why language is so important. Guilt implies a personal responsibility. Shame is indeed the correct answer for the awful things done by our ancestors just as pride is the emotion for their positive deeds. Shame doesn’t negate pride and only in religion are we guilty of the actions of our forefathers.
- You can be proud of someone else, especially of your parents.
- You can hate your parents for something they did, and you can feel guilt for it. But it might not be reasonable to feel guilt for something they did.
It might be that he or his book is bonkers, but the arguments from the interviewer are not as strong as they might seem in my opinion.
I was looking for this comment! He's a Christian Theologist who says as a white person he can't feel guilt about slavery, but then likely preaches about how we are all guilty of original sin until we are baptized clean of it.
Hypocrisy at its finest from the religious nutjobs.
Idiot bad-faith argument from what appears to be the host. The opposite of pride is shame so the man can feel shame for what his ancestors did, not guilt.
Ok but I agree with the Professor here. Guilt is, by definition, “a feeling of having committed or failed in an obligation”. While I can condemn what happened, feel empathy for the victims, and try to right the wrong that had happened for centuries, I cannot, by definition, feel guilty about it.
Just because something sounds wrong to say doesn’t mean it is wrong. Also having a whole room clapping for you doesn’t mean you’re right either.
Pride is, by definition, “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or possessions that are widely admired.”
So while you can’t technically feel guilt for something you didn’t do, you can feel pride for something you didn’t do if you’re associated one way or another.
I like Mehdi Hassan, but I don’t think he was right here.
I feel proud of my country helping defeat the Nazis like I'm proud of my kids when THEY do something good. I don't feel pride in myself for THEM doing something good. I also don't feel guilty when THEY act like buttheads. I normally get behind the debater here but he's wrong here.
I hardlly feel guilty for shit I did. I allways try do my best so I never have to feel guilty.
Why the fuck should I feel guilty for somebody else and their decision, especially during the time when it was acceptible.
People are also selective in what they want you to feel guilty about, kida wierd.
It's even worse that people can feel guilty for someting that happens 200 years ago but don't give a shit about the same or worse things that are happening now and that we can totally influence.
People are just full off shit and they want to dump it on you. Well if you feel guilty or victimize yourself then you do you. I do me and don't give a shit.
They are also talking about American slavery, wich is wierd because those slaves where African slaves who then got sold to America. Africa has really long relation with slavery and they still to this day kill eachother in genocide. Rather than focus on that, they are hung up on someting that happend long ago by their own people.
It’s not about feeling guilty. It’s about acknowledging the fact that people who enslaved others STILL BENEFIT to this day from slavery. That wealth didn’t just vanish. It grew and by denying “guilt” over it, we can ignore reparations or doing anything to help people who were affected by slavery.
And there have been votes to not even allow the topic of reparations before,
Why would there be any reparations? Everybody in US benefits from US being US. Or are you suggesting we go fully racially separe people and tax white population. Or maybe government should pay someting? As in black people would be included in reparation also? Or maby we also dicide people by race and apply different rules?
I'm not from US but the idea of reparations sounds stupid to me. Specially if you compare how the rest of the world works. In my country we don't pay reparation in form of money to make you "feel" good. In my country we make reparation on form of fixing the problem. If you get someting stolen you get they money to pay for the item. You won't get extra money to make you feel good.
Or are you suggesting we send all the people who got transported to US back? I think nobody wants that.
Derry-Chrome doesn't know what he's talking about and is locked in a semantics argument.
Anyway, for context, the US has been giving reparations to the Native Americans, African Americans and Women for decades. The Native Americans were given special land use privileges, and in some cases, even tribal soverenety. In an attempt to solve for the valid problems you mentioned above, most of these "reparations" came in the form education grants, small business grants and DEI policies. Officially, the program was called "Affirmative Action" and kicked off in the early 1960's. I am sure you could make a thousand valid criticisms of affirmative action, but for him to imply that reparations aren't or have ever been on the table is ridiculous.
It’s odd how the interviewer takes credit for the actions of his nations ancestors, if I was to guess I’d say he has ancestors from alternative regions of the globe. I think that’s somewhat the point the author is trying to make; that it’s pointless to associate your own sense of value with the actions of a people who belong to history. I’m Australian, I can identify the terrible treatment of the indigenous as a bad thing, doesn’t mean I’m gonna lose sleep over it. I’m also not proud of anything to do with WW2. I was far from being conceived. Might as well lament the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
Ok, so if we’re not guilty for things we didn’t do, doesn’t that completely destroy the concept of original sin, which is the entire basis for the Christian religion? Jesus was made to die by crucifixion because that was the only way to wash the original sin off us?
Original sin doesn’t come with guilt. We shouldn’t feel guilt for Adam and eve’s actions. We should rebuke it. Same how he doesn’t need to feel guilt for slavery. Why feel guilty about something you cant control.
This is a bad question, because generally this depends on the Christian. For instance, calvanists would say that you inherit Adam's guilt. Most Christians would probably tell you that sin is an inherent state of man caused by fall of Adam, but that is seperate from guilt.
Which is convincing depending on whether you consider that God being omniscient and omnipotent to be incongruent with the Garden of Eden story. If God is all knowing and all powerful, then he both knew that Adam would fall, and was capable of stopping it, but didn't.
Guilt is the wrong word. It adds to the inflamed discussion. Empathy, understanding. If you can see the reality that a community was enslaved and then continually oppressed via Jim Crow and up to today, you can have empathy and understanding and do something to address it.
Tbh, he's partly right. We shouldn't take pride in something we haven't done or influenced directly. National pride is a farce if you don't also feel shame about your country.
My ancestors were poor farmers in Europe and didn’t show up in the states until the early 1900s. I don’t think I should feel guilty about slavery. I can also acknowledge that slavery is bad too. See that works too
I’ve been saying it for years as a German. I think it was absolutely horrible what my ancestors did but I don’t feel guilt for it because I can only be guilty of my own actions. On the other hand I’ve been saying the same about pride. I often cringe when someone is proud of things someone else accomplished. I can only be proud of my own achievements imho
Pride can (and is) a more collectivist sentiment, whereas guilt may be less so. I don't feel guilty about things my ancestors did that were wrong/immoral, but I can be proud of their achievements, no contradiction or hypocrisy. It's a pretty light piece of entertainment here, but a heavy topic, so worth the effort in understanding the presenters criticism is based on a false dichotomy or lack of agreement around terms.
You can understand a historical act or event was bad without feeling guilt. I think modern people feeling “guilty” about 1600-1800 slavery is silly, modern people didn’t have any say in the matter.
As a history teacher, all I’d want is for my students to know the truth about chattel American slavery vs typical POW slavery throughout history. I’d make sure they understand a nation built upon the ideals of freedom and equality cannot stand for any slavery. Also how the Southern Ideological Campaign to protect the institution of slavery created the foundation for modern racism.
His logic isn't poor, you are not guilty for your ancestors actions, but you can and should feel ashamed. He is just not a debater, he came for an interview and instead is being debated in bad faith
I don't feel guilty about what other people's ancestors did, nor will I ever feel guilty for anything that anyone else did. I think that slavery throughout history, not just American/African slavery, is a disgusting mark on humanity.
I think this idea of guilt is irrelevant. I personally still have the benefit from slavery….. that’s all there is to it. Generations later my life is better because of it. That’s the problem.
I feel pride in my Braves winning the World Series, I don’t feel guilt for their atrocious season this year.
I realize it’s a sports reference versus real life stuff, but I think it tracks. I respect Mehdi for speaking out when others won’t on subjects publicly. But don’t become Stephen A/Skip Bayless of politics.
The aftermath of slavery is still here, and not being dealt with, and THAT is what we should feel guilty for. Fuck I hate bigots who can't admit there's still a massive amount of racism and discrimination.
You can take pride in your cities sports teams but you are not guilty when they loose. These are not the same or opposite, they are very different things. Guilt is inherently personal. Pride can include your background, proud is personal I think. They interviewer sees less like the classic agenda driven strongman debater.
As a black American, I feel like guilt for the slave trade isn’t being viewed correctly. I don’t want descendants of slave owners to feel guilty to appease me or my ancestors’ feelings. I want them to feel guilty so they look at the path that’s been taken since and see that the system is still very much rife with the same racist, dehumanization that was in ample supply during the slave trade. I think people have guilt because it forces us to confront what we did wrong and the issues it caused.
In this case, I believe not feeling guilt over their ancestors’ owning slaves probably means they don’t naturally see the systemic racism that was born out of it.
Without guilt or shame you have no problem recreating that shame of your ancestors. We are seeing it in real time. You now have the opportunity to do something about it.
I don’t understand how people who follow the Bible and Adam and Eve and think it’s okay for all humans to be punished for something someone else did but also not punished for what your ancestors did? Seems to contradict.
Nobody should feel guilty for what their ancestors did. Forgiveness is the path and always has been. Those who will try to say otherwise don’t have good intentions.
I mean you can definitely feel ashamed of them, you don’t need to feel guilty of them as well as you can be proud of them and not take pride for their actions. At least that’s my understanding of the matter linguistically even if English isn’t my first language.
If my ancestors can be proud of me, the way a parent is proud of their family, then you can be proud of something you didn’t do, you can also feel guilt without being guilty of the crime itself.
What a dumb semantics' argument. He had his soundbite all cued up. I hate that the brain dead audience just laps it up. I had a higher opinion of Mehdi Hasan until just now.
I really like Mehdi’s general common sense logic and arguments, but it does get old how he talks over people like he’s just so excited to be right about a point.
In this case, I don’t know that I agree with him. I despise what our ancestors did, I can’t imagine ever doing something like that, I can’t fathom looking down on someone for anything other than their character, and I certainly would never condone enslaving another person.
And, honestly, for those reasons I also don’t feel guilty about the slave trade that is a blight on our past. It’s fucked up on so many levels, but it’s hard for me to feel guilty for something that I didn’t, nor would ever, perpetrate.
Isn't Mehdi Hasan the guy who called non-Muslims "cattle" and lumped gay folks in with pedophiles as people "transgressive of Islam" ... and also insinuated that they should be executed?
How does he still have a platform? He said those things as a fully grown adult, and I don't care how much you apologize, you maybe shouldn't come back from those sorts of statements.
There is a point in which the pedantic, academic nuance of "guilt" and "lament" (his original point) is just so far from pragmatic common language that it is no longer helpful
I think the concept isn't correctly expressed but may not be 100% off.
He may feel ashamed to be part of a country that did something yet not feel guilty.
As much as you take pride in something good yet not feel satisfied as it wasn't you in first person.
This at least if we talking about fact not happening right now or during one's lifetime.
I want to believe they both had their heart on the right place.
He should have said, "I don't feel guilty for taking 3 million people out of Africa, I feel pride for fixing the problem and NOT attempting to reinvent something that was vile and against my personal beliefs. I don't feel guilty for something THEY DID! I feel pride for ENDING IT!"
Many people who owned slaves did it because it was socially accepted and almost a requirement in that era. Most people know it is wrong. Feeling guilt for someone who is just that same race is dumb! It was wrong and we fixed it! THATS IT!
I feel pride for fixing the problem and NOT attempting to reinvent something that was vile and against my personal beliefs.
They did this. The British "abolished" slavery in 1833 but continued the indenture system all the way into the 20th century. Do you really feel prideful that in the 20th century, with home electricity and powered flight, that we finally stopped oppressing people in far away places?
I don't feel guilty for something THEY DID! I feel pride for ENDING IT!"
Biggar neither owned slaves nor freed them. Therefore, he shouldn't feel pride for "ending" slavery. This is the wrong way to tackle Hasan's argument.
While I'd dispute the value in being prideful of something nearly every single country is doing in the post-modern era, I suppose that is a valid statement to make, so fair enough.
I’m going to start calling this the “2 step Rhetoric” bc it’s funny to see them back pedal something they believe in but when the opposite is applied they seem to do the jig to get out of the bad side of it. Stupid people will never learn that we need truthful history taught so that we can evolve as a species of humans that could stop hating based on skin color and just move into the future we all desperately want!!
They are debating semantics. The point at hand is whether we have any current responsibility as a nation for what happened in our nation before we were born.
It feels like it was a question of semantics. His definition of guilt is regret for an action you took. I don't think he is indifferent about slavery, I just think he's going off his own definition.
Maybe we shouldn't feel guilt, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't feel empathy for ancecestors of slavery nor those living today who have been discriminated against or experienced injustice stemming from slavery or the after affects of it.
If you can admire your ancestors and their actions you can also disdain them 🤷🏽 and if you can be grateful for the benefits your ancestors brought you, you can be ashamed of the consequences of the great evils they committed and especially the ways they benefit you.
Debate doesn't decide answers, it's ethics and logic as a sport
I acknowledge history but I don’t feel guilty for events that didn’t occur in my lifetime, that would be absurd. I might feel ashamed
But that’s not the same a guilt. Play a game, Pick one country at random, look at its history, it’s shameful. Slavery existed millennia before the transatlantic Slave trade based on race.
I am a British Citizen with Irish ancestry I do not feel guilt about the trans Atlantic slave trade.
My wife is a North African, she does not feel guilt for the Barbary slave trade
We are both proud that our grandparents fought the Nazis.
Mehdi Hasan should not feel guilty that his mother, a wealthy well educated doctor from Hyderabad was descended from an elite Shia ruling class, or that he attended private school in the UK
Just to be clear, Great Britain didn't defeat the Nazis in WWII, the Allies did. If not for America, Russia, and other European allies, GB would be speaking German today.
Pretty much guarantee if you voted MAGA or support those ideals, or even if you can't clearly see that MAGA stands for everything America should hate, you are just a shitty person. It's not intellectualism, it isn't "both sides are bad". One side is literal pedophile nazis, and the other wants to be governed by laws and have Healthcare. Fuck all MAGA, the day will come that you have to pay for the choices you made, and that day is FAST approaching.
Fun fact due to our differences in age and geographic location mean from a generational perspective when my family was enslaved, Kamala Harris’ family owned slaves.
Except pride and guilt are not analogous. It would be more like taking credit for defeating the Nazis in this example. You can be proud of something without taking credit for it (something your parents, a sibling, partner, or your child have done for instance).
I mean, I recognize how wrong the slave trade was, but I feel absolutely zero guilt about it, I didn't do it, you can feel pride in what your parents or grandparents accomplished, and you can feel disappointment or disdain for it, but guilt? Get out of here, do you guys feel guilty when your siblings do something wrong? Do you feel guilty when people you don't know do something wrong? Guilt is personal, and I do not feel it about slavery. I do feel disgust, disdain, disappointment, maybe even hatred for the people who bought and sold human beings to be used as property and for their ancestors who perpetate the ongoing bigotry against the ancestors of those enslaved people and for holding back us as a species in general, but not guilt. You can be proud of your heritage, you can feel embarrassed by it as well, but why the fuck am going to be "guilty" when all I ever did was be born white?
Chattel slavery =/= to old world slavery
I'm not saying old world slavery is ok or acceptable, but I doubt the people selling their own countrymen would still do it of they knew that it would go on for generation after generation. They didn't know that they were dooming the children of the people they sold into perpetual slavery based on race so this argument is a bit thin.
Isn’t it interesting how we recognise institutions, like a government or nation, as real or imaginary depending entirely on whether it makes us feel good or bad.
I am portuguese and on school we are taught that the age of discoveries was a great achievement that united the world and brought great benefits to everyone. Slavery and colonialism are downplayed (usually by saying we weren't as bad as the Spanish or British when we were as bad).
When talking about slavery and reparations most portuguese people will say that that was a long time ago and we shouldn't feel guilty for the sins of our ancestors. But then they will have no problems saying how pride they are of our "Brave sea men" history as if they are different topics
This is a false equivalency. Pride and Guilt are not too sides of the same coin. Although he is correct in that we can't be proud of winning a war we didn't take part in.
I understand that it is also pride in oneself that holds individuals back, but I still can't help but wonder why he couldn't just be like, "damn you know what, that's a good point and I didn't think about that"
His logic is sound. He's 100% correct. You cannot feel guilt for something you didn't do. You can feel ashamed but not guilty. Whereas as you can feel pride, by definition, from someone else's achievements. This whole argument was disingenuous and he was set up from the beginning to get a rage bit.
Guilt noun
the fact of having committed a specified or implied offence or crime. "it is the duty of the prosecution to prove the prisoner's guilt"
Pride noun
1. a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.
Opposing guilt with pride is simply dishonest.
Pride is opposed to shame, and guilt to innocence.
Being proud of what our ancestors did when they fought Nazism and fascism does not mean that I walk around wearing a “WWII veteran” cap.
We can feel a sense of pride in belonging to a collective history without taking credit for it.
We can feel shame in belonging to this history when it recounts crimes without feeling guilt.
Acknowledging history is not the same as inheriting guilt.
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Why not both? I don't feel guilty about what my ancestors did and I also don't feel pride about what they have accomplished.
Agreed. I'm not proud of something I didn't do, though I am thankful they did it. On the other hand I dont feel guilt for what others did but I am sorry that that they did it.
The guy on the left is completely right he’s just not doing a good job of articulating it. You can be proud of others so you can be proud of something you didn’t do. You can’t feel guilt for something you didn’t do because guilt implies responsibility. The guy on the right is making it out that guilt is the opposite of pride which is wrong. The word he is looking for is shame. You can feel ashamed of actions others have done.
It’s completely fine to feel pride in what your country accomplished even if you weren’t involved as you are proud of the actions people associated with you took. It’s completely fine to feel shame in what you country did even if you weren’t involved. You can feel ashamed of actions others have done. But you can’t feel guilt over them unless you were involved. Because guilt means you personally feel responsible for what happened and blame yourself. None of us engaged in the trans Atlantic slave trade so none of us should feel guilty about it. Ashamed yes but not guilty.
I think what some of you guys are missing is that it wasn’t Mehdi that brought up guilt. It was the writer who wrote “the tyranny of imaginary guilt.”
I honestly don’t know what they are talking about exactly but I gathered the context of it all.
The implication of that phrase is that white people or the British shouldn’t be burdened by guilt over slavery. It also implies that descendants of African slaves have no right to feel aggrieved. Also it removes historical disadvantages from discussion. It also flips the framing of the perspective so that white people are the victims. They are the victims now because according to the writer they have to deal with “the tyranny of imaginary guilt”.
So Mehdi was correct because he wasn’t arguing that descendants of slave owners should feel guilt. He was arguing that the writer could have written instead that the ending of slavery was a moral necessity but instead chose to write about “imaginary guilt”.
What Mehdi said about having pride in your country was just to show the logical fallacy in the writers argument. At which point the writer kept glitching and eventually just straight up had the BSOD.
Yeah, your comment “FriendOfDirutti” is what I expected the first comment to be akin to 😂 but, should I even be surprised, look at where we are now in terms of geopolitics. 🥹😂🥹
Cheers for the concise explanation.
Yeah this one has it exactly right , I'm ashamed of what my parents and grandparents did, I'm not guilty of what they did.
That wasn’t Mehdi’s point though. It was the writer that brought up guilt. Mehdi just said he should have written something else entirely.
If Medhi was talking about "shame" then it would make more sense and the other debater would probably agree with him.
Guilt and shame are not the same thing.
Oh yea I’m sure that guy would’ve agreed 😐
I don't believe guilt implies responsibility. I believe guilt implies blame. For example the population of slave traders and owners are to blame for slavery and should feel guilt. The responsibility for black people to repair and prosper is a shared responsibility. For example if you were to receive reparations (an acknowledgement of financial responsibility due to a century of uncompensated labor, distress and damage) a black family has a responsibility to themselves to use that money in a way to redress the generational wealth gap (I know that can never happen but maybe it starts with one generation of home ownership). My grandmother's grandma was a freed slave and my family kept the oral history of the stories, hardships and perspectives of that generation.
Responsibility can mean a few things but I did mean it as blame. Guilt is feeling shame for something you are responsible for as in you are to blame for it. Maybe it’s not as common of a use for the word responsibility. Like if I knocked over a vase you could say I was responsible for breaking it. The way you used the word responsible is perfect too. I think we are on the same page but are just reading the word differently if you know what I mean.
Well said and I understand!
It's widely accepted that you can feel pride or guilt for something that someone else did provided that you have an affiliation with them. Nitpicky semantics aside it is a feeling and it is possible to have that feeling.
It's communication, the guy who says it confidently without thinking further seems to be right whereas the guy who is visibly thinking and has a hard time finding an answer that sounds coherent looks dumb.
Exactly
Yeah Mehdi Hasan is a great debator who I generally appreciate, but I disagree with him here, even if only semantically.
Mehdi didn't say anything wrong, it's his opponent who didn't want to let go of "pride", because he knows he'll upset a lot of right wingers if he says they can't be proud of winning WWII.
I am proud of my country. I am also ashamed of some of our past and present actions. I am proud of my family, past and present. I do not share my fathers guilt of being a wife beater, but I do endeavour to be a better man. I shoulder some of the guilt of misogyny and the denegration of women by my forbears.That is the same sort of guilt I carry for white European enslavement of other peoples. Guilt can lead to better moral choices.
Still something to be said about trying to rectify the present day consequences of what the people before us did
He later flipped to admiration vs pride and I think that’s appropriate. I can admonish the bad stuff and admire the good stuff. But pride and guilt are nonsense emotions for stuff you didn’t do.
Because he likes feeling pride but not guilt.
Perhaps saying you can feel pride and shame for the actions of your ancestors. Guilt is a personal emotion, for one's own conduct. Shame can be foisted on others or accepted for the actions of others.
I use the term embarrassment for the negative actions of a culture that I support or take pride in, but reserve guilt for those actions that I can personally impact, like modern day slavery supported by my consumer habits.
Medhi would be okay with that answer. At least it would be consistent.
But he knows that these people are nationalists who love to take pride in things they didn't do.
There are a lot of families who don't feel shame for what their patriarchs did, but are nevertheless happy to inherit. "I'm not the one who stole it. But if I keep my mouth shut about what happened, they won't make me give it back."
Yeah, that's my sense as well. And I get it. During BLM I found out that my mom paid for my undergrad tuition using an inheritance she got from her grandparents (her mom died young). My grandparents owned a sharecropping farm and they had a black family working it for decades. It's entirely possible my grandparents exploited that family and gave that wealth to my mom who used it for my tuition.
I'm not rich. My degree isn't the kind that makes a ton of money. I'm on the lower end of middle class. So it's not like I can afford to find that family's descendants and give them anything back. I want to, but I've got a responsibility to my own kids too.
But it still happened. My grandparents stole money from that family. I have to live with that truth.
What I decided to do is use my degree to help others. I don't have the money, but I have an education and time. So it's now my career.
It still sucks because I feel like I'm shirking that family in particular (if they're even still around) but I'm doing what I can to balance out the universe.
I think guilt is the wrong term even though it still applies but shame is how i'd describe it. People easily acknowledge the horrible things ethnic and religious groups have gone through from Native Americans to Jewish people and support them getting reperations.
But when it comes to enslavement of Black people all of a sudden reperations is "asking too much" and people downplay slavery like their rent is due its frustrating.
I get why you don't feel personally guilty about what your ancestors did and i'm not demanding apologies that fixes nothing. But telling black people to get over slavery and racism (victim mindset etc) is very annoying no other group receives that responce so harshly
But you can be proud of what your country did. I honestly think there is a difference.
This.
My ancestors fucked up. I didn’t. You wanna go back to year 547 and blame me for that? Sure. Whatever 🤷♀️
Question is: did I learn from the past? Did I improve compared to those before me?
This argument is false equivalency. Guilt and pride are not different sides of the same coin, and they are used in very different contexts.
I also think this argument about semantics. What does the author regard as guilt? And what does the host believe is guilt?
Edit: the replies just confirm what the host was baiting the author on. The argument is based on what people believe guilt is, i.e what their personal meaning of what guilt is
It's a perfectly good equivalency. Wanting to be associated with something you didn't do that's seen in a positive light but not wanting to be associated with something you didn't do that's seen in a negative light.
Hypocrisy, clear as day
I see your point, but I think it’s important to distinguish association from responsibility. Being proud of the greatness of a nation doesn’t mean you are responsible for it, you didn’t create it. Feeling guilt, on the other hand, comes from feeling responsible for something you did; a guilty person is responsible for their own actions. So in this sense, you can feel sorry that something negative happened, but you cannot be truly guilty for it if you had no part in causing it.
Seems fairly equal to me.
Guilt (emotion) about ancestors behaviours and actions.
Pride (emotion) about ancestors behaviours and actions.
This has always been my argument on these matters, equally when people get all excited about how they beat Liverpool or ManU over the weekend.
But, I do see that those same supporters do feel something that looks like pride to me. Perhaps it's something else... But it does look like pride. Perhaps it's the pride of picking the right team? (If that makes any sense) But it seems more than that. (Aside, extra complication is that we didn't pick our ancestors)
That said. I do feel some measure of guilt that the systems around me, that I have benefited from and continue to do so, and that I do have some modest influence over... Have done terrible things. I didn't want us to invade Iraq following 9/11, but our taxes went to support that war.
I think it's more realistically joy and anger. I can be happy humans landed on the moon, I might call it pride but that would be misplaced. And I can be angry that humans commit murders, I'm not guilty I belong to the same species or gender or tribe etc.
The closer I am to the systems that created the positive/negative event and the more benefits I currently enjoy from them or support I provide them, then it's possible that guilt and pride will rightly creep in.
Then it becomes a game of describing groups so you can cherry pick the good and exclude the bad. So I might be prideful that I'm a working chap in the UK... Like those who fought the Nazis. But I'm not from a family that historically benefit from slavery... So no guilt. ... Sounds a bit gamey to me.
Sorry for the waffle... Should have thought it out and written a tldr.
Its the downplaying and defending of the horrible things nations have done thats frustrating and nobody i've seen has said Britian shouldn't be proud of defeating tbe Nazis or having love for the country in general.
You can easily be opposed to the colonialism and racism UK has done in the past and now and have love for your country which is what right wingers want people to believe is impossible.
I think that is a far easier position to hold (not saying that's a bad thing, just that it seems internally consistent)... Celebrating good stuff and berating the bad stuff.
But I think we do tend to be eager to celebrate good stuff while avoiding thinking about the bad stuff... And when we do, we say it's nowt to do with me.
Not an accusation, just a tendency in folk. And not a surprising one.
I guess if you're someone looking to tear down a colonial representative, you will be less inclined to consider the person opposite is less aware of their ancestors actions than you. And this we find a lot of ill will and bad faith arguments between would be allies.
That sounds an awful lot like logical consistency. It is extremely unpopular. But I too don't feel guilty or proud for things I didn't do.
That's what I do. I didn't get a say in where I was born and to which parents. That goes with lack of sense of belonging to a larger social group with the sense of security that it provides. You defying our basic tribal instincts. You are not patriotic, don't believe in national symbols and don't perform the rituals. That type of attitude is fine in times of peace and stability but during war or times of trouble you have to take sides or else you are Switzerland and better have mountains all around you.
It’s also possible to not feel guilt personally while feeling nationalist guilt for what our country has done.
Agreed.
There is this great Canadian musical called Come From Away. It’s about plans landing is very small Newfoundland community, how the community welcomed them, and the relationship there were made. Excellent musical if you’re into the thing.
Do I feel pride as a Canadian? No. That’s Newfoundlanders, they are like that…/the rest of us are not. And when this planes were diverted all over the country, other places didn’t do the same.
I think good for them, but I’m not proud as if I had anything to do with that.
I do think that guilt is more of a personal feeling than pride. If a buddy of mine gets a promotion I can say 'hey I'm proud of you' and mean it. If he kicks a dog, I can't say I feel guilt for it. It's definitely a false analogy.
I get what matey is saying - societal accountability can be a thing, but only to an extent. Multiple generations onwards, however, it gets pretty muddy.
It's tricky because either side of the debate can make arguments starting with 'well what if', and both sides are somewhat correct
Are you proud to be a <wherever you're from>? Unless you changed countries you are that by default though no choice or action of your own.
I’m proud of my grandfather probably in much the same way he was proud of me when he saw me square dancing in elementary school, thanks a lot Mr. Ford…
Granted, he had a bit of a harder job because he had to shoot and stab Nazis to death, but still, you get the general idea. I couldn’t exactly do anything much more heroic than do-see-do properly at the time.
You don't have to feel guilty, but not recognizing that there are still repercusions to this day take a head solidly wedged up your own ass.
That’s exactly it. The effects of the economic wins from the exploitation of slaves compounded over time mean there’s still a financial aristocracy that directly benefit from the atrocities of yore.
The collective guilt could be (partly) remedied with reparations, but if you refuse to acknowledge the guilt and the fact that you’re still benefiting from it you’re just ignorant.
More importantly, since reformation was never complete and reparations and equal rights were stifled many black American majority communities are still effectively quasi-segregated and poor.
I feel like he left room for that when he said we can be responsible for it but not guilty for it… honestly feel like this was more of a gotcha line of reasoning
Yeah, without further context, this seems more like an argument of semantics than of substance.
The guilt isn’t the point. Guilt is a feeling that tells you to learn and encourages you to make things right. You hurt because you recognize the pain your actions caused, so if you can acknowledge and process the guilt in a healthy way, you can learn to become more sensitive to others and treat them better. That’s the lesson we need to take away.
And the consequences of slavery and colonialism are far from over. Rather than going away, they have taken new forms. Making things right means ending these continuing forms of oppression, which will at least create the opportunity for a kind of justice that could last.
We can only create a just society if we are open to seeing injustice. If seeing injustice makes you feel bad, that’s a good thing - it means you’re human. If you don’t think it’s a good thing to feel bad, you probably need to learn how to process your feelings in a different way.
This is all semantics. Shame, admiration, guilt, pride, association. Clearly they aren't agreeing on the definitions of the terms.
I think this is largely true. I think the guy on the left has a very specific definition of guilt that he’s working with, and I think that’s why he’s saying we “can’t” feel guilty (as in, it’s not possible), not that we shouldn’t. I think he really means it literally—whatever you feel about your ancestors’ despicable behavior (shame, horror, sadness), it’s not specifically guilt. I assume he means by guilt something like “the affliction of the conscience by knowledge of having sinned” which is a pretty typical Christian definition.
All that being said, he’s an absolute nincompoop if he doesn’t explain that and frame it in those terms. I can imagine someone saying, “We should feel shame, we should feel sadness, we should feel horror, and we should work to remedy the wrongs of our ancestors, but what we’re feeling is not guilt properly understood.” Even then, that would be an abstruse philosophical point that would be better delivered in a paper, rather than this adversarial debate format that seems to rely on quick sound bytes and getting in your point broadly and in a very digestible way.
A ginormous subset of questions of Philosophy ultimately come down to semantics. It's a pet peeve of mine when people don't recognise that.
That doesn’t work.
You can feel ashamed of someone but you can’t feel guilty of someone.
Proud or ashamed
Innocent or guilty
This
Yes. If you feel proud of your ancestors accomplishments then you should also feel ashamed of the atrocities they committed. But you are not guilty of those atrocities.
Seems like a disingenuous argument on one side and a bit of an idiot on the other side, watched over by an audience that is happy to applaud what they believe to be a valid point made without any actual understanding of what has been said and what it means.
I don’t feel guilty for the actions of my ancestors, because they weren’t my actions. I am ashamed of those actions because they created and perpetuated a system of oppression. I think Hasan is splitting hairs for ratings.
Hasan is very good at debating. I see this more as a sport than a good faith discussion. So you are absolutely correct, he's saying what he has to say to get views.
The opposite of pride is shame. So could being ashamed of what one's ancestors did make more sense than feeling guilt?
This is why language is so important. Guilt implies a personal responsibility. Shame is indeed the correct answer for the awful things done by our ancestors just as pride is the emotion for their positive deeds. Shame doesn’t negate pride and only in religion are we guilty of the actions of our forefathers.
I think he could have a case for this:
- You can be proud of someone else, especially of your parents.
- You can hate your parents for something they did, and you can feel guilt for it. But it might not be reasonable to feel guilt for something they did.
It might be that he or his book is bonkers, but the arguments from the interviewer are not as strong as they might seem in my opinion.
This is someone who believes in original sin.
I was looking for this comment! He's a Christian Theologist who says as a white person he can't feel guilt about slavery, but then likely preaches about how we are all guilty of original sin until we are baptized clean of it.
Hypocrisy at its finest from the religious nutjobs.
I don't feel guilty for something my ancestors did but do try to learn from it
Idiot bad-faith argument from what appears to be the host. The opposite of pride is shame so the man can feel shame for what his ancestors did, not guilt.
Ok but I agree with the Professor here. Guilt is, by definition, “a feeling of having committed or failed in an obligation”. While I can condemn what happened, feel empathy for the victims, and try to right the wrong that had happened for centuries, I cannot, by definition, feel guilty about it.
Just because something sounds wrong to say doesn’t mean it is wrong. Also having a whole room clapping for you doesn’t mean you’re right either.
Pride is, by definition, “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or possessions that are widely admired.”
So while you can’t technically feel guilt for something you didn’t do, you can feel pride for something you didn’t do if you’re associated one way or another.
I like Mehdi Hassan, but I don’t think he was right here.
It’s a false conflation. You can condemn actions of others but not be obligated to feel guilty for it just because they were your ancestors.
Like I can be proud to be Canadian, but not be proud of what my ancestors did against the indigenous people of this land.
I feel shame, but I don’t feel guilty because I didn’t commit the actions.
I feel proud of my country helping defeat the Nazis like I'm proud of my kids when THEY do something good. I don't feel pride in myself for THEM doing something good. I also don't feel guilty when THEY act like buttheads. I normally get behind the debater here but he's wrong here.
I hardlly feel guilty for shit I did. I allways try do my best so I never have to feel guilty.
Why the fuck should I feel guilty for somebody else and their decision, especially during the time when it was acceptible.
People are also selective in what they want you to feel guilty about, kida wierd.
It's even worse that people can feel guilty for someting that happens 200 years ago but don't give a shit about the same or worse things that are happening now and that we can totally influence.
People are just full off shit and they want to dump it on you. Well if you feel guilty or victimize yourself then you do you. I do me and don't give a shit.
They are also talking about American slavery, wich is wierd because those slaves where African slaves who then got sold to America. Africa has really long relation with slavery and they still to this day kill eachother in genocide. Rather than focus on that, they are hung up on someting that happend long ago by their own people.
Is it wrong yes! Should I care? No
This is a disingenuous.
It’s not about feeling guilty. It’s about acknowledging the fact that people who enslaved others STILL BENEFIT to this day from slavery. That wealth didn’t just vanish. It grew and by denying “guilt” over it, we can ignore reparations or doing anything to help people who were affected by slavery.
And there have been votes to not even allow the topic of reparations before,
Why would there be any reparations? Everybody in US benefits from US being US. Or are you suggesting we go fully racially separe people and tax white population. Or maybe government should pay someting? As in black people would be included in reparation also? Or maby we also dicide people by race and apply different rules?
I'm not from US but the idea of reparations sounds stupid to me. Specially if you compare how the rest of the world works. In my country we don't pay reparation in form of money to make you "feel" good. In my country we make reparation on form of fixing the problem. If you get someting stolen you get they money to pay for the item. You won't get extra money to make you feel good.
Or are you suggesting we send all the people who got transported to US back? I think nobody wants that.
Derry-Chrome doesn't know what he's talking about and is locked in a semantics argument.
Anyway, for context, the US has been giving reparations to the Native Americans, African Americans and Women for decades. The Native Americans were given special land use privileges, and in some cases, even tribal soverenety. In an attempt to solve for the valid problems you mentioned above, most of these "reparations" came in the form education grants, small business grants and DEI policies. Officially, the program was called "Affirmative Action" and kicked off in the early 1960's. I am sure you could make a thousand valid criticisms of affirmative action, but for him to imply that reparations aren't or have ever been on the table is ridiculous.
It’s odd how the interviewer takes credit for the actions of his nations ancestors, if I was to guess I’d say he has ancestors from alternative regions of the globe. I think that’s somewhat the point the author is trying to make; that it’s pointless to associate your own sense of value with the actions of a people who belong to history. I’m Australian, I can identify the terrible treatment of the indigenous as a bad thing, doesn’t mean I’m gonna lose sleep over it. I’m also not proud of anything to do with WW2. I was far from being conceived. Might as well lament the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
Ok, so if we’re not guilty for things we didn’t do, doesn’t that completely destroy the concept of original sin, which is the entire basis for the Christian religion? Jesus was made to die by crucifixion because that was the only way to wash the original sin off us?
Original sin doesn’t come with guilt. We shouldn’t feel guilt for Adam and eve’s actions. We should rebuke it. Same how he doesn’t need to feel guilt for slavery. Why feel guilty about something you cant control.
This is a bad question, because generally this depends on the Christian. For instance, calvanists would say that you inherit Adam's guilt. Most Christians would probably tell you that sin is an inherent state of man caused by fall of Adam, but that is seperate from guilt.
Which is convincing depending on whether you consider that God being omniscient and omnipotent to be incongruent with the Garden of Eden story. If God is all knowing and all powerful, then he both knew that Adam would fall, and was capable of stopping it, but didn't.
Guilt is the wrong word. It adds to the inflamed discussion. Empathy, understanding. If you can see the reality that a community was enslaved and then continually oppressed via Jim Crow and up to today, you can have empathy and understanding and do something to address it.
This is a stupid argument.
Tbh, he's partly right. We shouldn't take pride in something we haven't done or influenced directly. National pride is a farce if you don't also feel shame about your country.
Shame and guilt are separate things
My ancestors were poor farmers in Europe and didn’t show up in the states until the early 1900s. I don’t think I should feel guilty about slavery. I can also acknowledge that slavery is bad too. See that works too
Sure, WWII was only the US and Britain.
And no, you cannot claim this as your own achievement.
I’ve been saying it for years as a German. I think it was absolutely horrible what my ancestors did but I don’t feel guilt for it because I can only be guilty of my own actions. On the other hand I’ve been saying the same about pride. I often cringe when someone is proud of things someone else accomplished. I can only be proud of my own achievements imho
I don't feel pride or guilt about anything I didn't do and no amount of being lectured at is going to change that.
Pride can (and is) a more collectivist sentiment, whereas guilt may be less so. I don't feel guilty about things my ancestors did that were wrong/immoral, but I can be proud of their achievements, no contradiction or hypocrisy. It's a pretty light piece of entertainment here, but a heavy topic, so worth the effort in understanding the presenters criticism is based on a false dichotomy or lack of agreement around terms.
You can understand a historical act or event was bad without feeling guilt. I think modern people feeling “guilty” about 1600-1800 slavery is silly, modern people didn’t have any say in the matter.
As a history teacher, all I’d want is for my students to know the truth about chattel American slavery vs typical POW slavery throughout history. I’d make sure they understand a nation built upon the ideals of freedom and equality cannot stand for any slavery. Also how the Southern Ideological Campaign to protect the institution of slavery created the foundation for modern racism.
What's more concerning is that this person is a professor who is teaching in a university and has such poor logic. Imagine the state of poor students.
His logic isn't poor, you are not guilty for your ancestors actions, but you can and should feel ashamed. He is just not a debater, he came for an interview and instead is being debated in bad faith
I don't feel guilty about what other people's ancestors did, nor will I ever feel guilty for anything that anyone else did. I think that slavery throughout history, not just American/African slavery, is a disgusting mark on humanity.
I am supposed to feel guilt over almost everything why wouldn’t I feel guilt over things only we are told only demons are capable of doing.
I guess in the same way I don't feel guilt that there are serial killers in the world. It's well beyond my control, I was simply born into this world.
I think this idea of guilt is irrelevant. I personally still have the benefit from slavery….. that’s all there is to it. Generations later my life is better because of it. That’s the problem.
I feel pride in my Braves winning the World Series, I don’t feel guilt for their atrocious season this year.
I realize it’s a sports reference versus real life stuff, but I think it tracks. I respect Mehdi for speaking out when others won’t on subjects publicly. But don’t become Stephen A/Skip Bayless of politics.
The aftermath of slavery is still here, and not being dealt with, and THAT is what we should feel guilty for. Fuck I hate bigots who can't admit there's still a massive amount of racism and discrimination.
Semantics are doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
You can take pride in your cities sports teams but you are not guilty when they loose. These are not the same or opposite, they are very different things. Guilt is inherently personal. Pride can include your background, proud is personal I think. They interviewer sees less like the classic agenda driven strongman debater.
Do you feel thankful that your family had a house for you to be born in?
Would you feel guilty that they killed a family and stole the house for you?
Keep interrupting the answer
As a black American, I feel like guilt for the slave trade isn’t being viewed correctly. I don’t want descendants of slave owners to feel guilty to appease me or my ancestors’ feelings. I want them to feel guilty so they look at the path that’s been taken since and see that the system is still very much rife with the same racist, dehumanization that was in ample supply during the slave trade. I think people have guilt because it forces us to confront what we did wrong and the issues it caused.
In this case, I believe not feeling guilt over their ancestors’ owning slaves probably means they don’t naturally see the systemic racism that was born out of it.
Just once I’d like to hear them say “Huh. That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that.”
that dude sounds like porky pig about have way through.
Without guilt or shame you have no problem recreating that shame of your ancestors. We are seeing it in real time. You now have the opportunity to do something about it.
Cracked
I don’t understand how people who follow the Bible and Adam and Eve and think it’s okay for all humans to be punished for something someone else did but also not punished for what your ancestors did? Seems to contradict.
Nobody should feel guilty for what their ancestors did. Forgiveness is the path and always has been. Those who will try to say otherwise don’t have good intentions.
This is ridiculous. It is arguing samantics and splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs.
I mean you can definitely feel ashamed of them, you don’t need to feel guilty of them as well as you can be proud of them and not take pride for their actions. At least that’s my understanding of the matter linguistically even if English isn’t my first language.
If my ancestors can be proud of me, the way a parent is proud of their family, then you can be proud of something you didn’t do, you can also feel guilt without being guilty of the crime itself.
What a dumb semantics' argument. He had his soundbite all cued up. I hate that the brain dead audience just laps it up. I had a higher opinion of Mehdi Hasan until just now.
Best takedown I've seen in a while
Why cant we help the people who are experiencing modern slavery?
Pride and guilt are not comparable.
Zero guilt. ZERO
I really like Mehdi’s general common sense logic and arguments, but it does get old how he talks over people like he’s just so excited to be right about a point.
In this case, I don’t know that I agree with him. I despise what our ancestors did, I can’t imagine ever doing something like that, I can’t fathom looking down on someone for anything other than their character, and I certainly would never condone enslaving another person.
And, honestly, for those reasons I also don’t feel guilty about the slave trade that is a blight on our past. It’s fucked up on so many levels, but it’s hard for me to feel guilty for something that I didn’t, nor would ever, perpetrate.
America voted for a birther twice.... Maybe there needs to be a bit more actual guilt for slavery
I hope the English will be ashamed of the creation of Israel...
I don’t understand why I can’t eat my cake and have it too.
Ahh ah ah ah uh uh uh
He really continued to try to sit there with his whole chest and b******* his way through that
Can you feel pride over WWII if that victory was only possible through the actions we’re supposed to feel guilt over?
It's fun to watch that guy flail, and desperately try to reason his way out the trap. Mehdi did an excellent job.
Why is the idiot brigade clapping for the absolute throwaway line "you don't feel pride for defeating the Nazis in WWII?"
I don't feel guilty that some people owned slaves - my ancestors never did.
Isn't Mehdi Hasan the guy who called non-Muslims "cattle" and lumped gay folks in with pedophiles as people "transgressive of Islam" ... and also insinuated that they should be executed?
How does he still have a platform? He said those things as a fully grown adult, and I don't care how much you apologize, you maybe shouldn't come back from those sorts of statements.
There is a point in which the pedantic, academic nuance of "guilt" and "lament" (his original point) is just so far from pragmatic common language that it is no longer helpful
Bam!
I think the concept isn't correctly expressed but may not be 100% off.
He may feel ashamed to be part of a country that did something yet not feel guilty. As much as you take pride in something good yet not feel satisfied as it wasn't you in first person.
This at least if we talking about fact not happening right now or during one's lifetime.
I want to believe they both had their heart on the right place.
Is it some scientist or typical twitter MAGA user? Cause i cannot tell.
He should have said, "I don't feel guilty for taking 3 million people out of Africa, I feel pride for fixing the problem and NOT attempting to reinvent something that was vile and against my personal beliefs. I don't feel guilty for something THEY DID! I feel pride for ENDING IT!"
Many people who owned slaves did it because it was socially accepted and almost a requirement in that era. Most people know it is wrong. Feeling guilt for someone who is just that same race is dumb! It was wrong and we fixed it! THATS IT!
They did this. The British "abolished" slavery in 1833 but continued the indenture system all the way into the 20th century. Do you really feel prideful that in the 20th century, with home electricity and powered flight, that we finally stopped oppressing people in far away places?
Biggar neither owned slaves nor freed them. Therefore, he shouldn't feel pride for "ending" slavery. This is the wrong way to tackle Hasan's argument.
OK, "Pride for KEEPING IT ENDED!" Fixed.
While I'd dispute the value in being prideful of something nearly every single country is doing in the post-modern era, I suppose that is a valid statement to make, so fair enough.
Britain defeated the nazis, yeah sure
There was an attempt to finish a sentence without being interrupted.
I’m going to start calling this the “2 step Rhetoric” bc it’s funny to see them back pedal something they believe in but when the opposite is applied they seem to do the jig to get out of the bad side of it. Stupid people will never learn that we need truthful history taught so that we can evolve as a species of humans that could stop hating based on skin color and just move into the future we all desperately want!!
They are debating semantics. The point at hand is whether we have any current responsibility as a nation for what happened in our nation before we were born.
Brilliant!
I'm no white and I feel ashamed about slavers just on the basis of being human.
The Trans Atlantic Slave Trade was by far the darkest chapter in all human history
It feels like it was a question of semantics. His definition of guilt is regret for an action you took. I don't think he is indifferent about slavery, I just think he's going off his own definition.
Maybe we shouldn't feel guilt, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't feel empathy for ancecestors of slavery nor those living today who have been discriminated against or experienced injustice stemming from slavery or the after affects of it.
Cooked em
If you can admire your ancestors and their actions you can also disdain them 🤷🏽 and if you can be grateful for the benefits your ancestors brought you, you can be ashamed of the consequences of the great evils they committed and especially the ways they benefit you.
Debate doesn't decide answers, it's ethics and logic as a sport
I acknowledge history but I don’t feel guilty for events that didn’t occur in my lifetime, that would be absurd. I might feel ashamed But that’s not the same a guilt. Play a game, Pick one country at random, look at its history, it’s shameful. Slavery existed millennia before the transatlantic Slave trade based on race.
I am a British Citizen with Irish ancestry I do not feel guilt about the trans Atlantic slave trade.
My wife is a North African, she does not feel guilt for the Barbary slave trade
We are both proud that our grandparents fought the Nazis.
Mehdi Hasan should not feel guilty that his mother, a wealthy well educated doctor from Hyderabad was descended from an elite Shia ruling class, or that he attended private school in the UK
What is controversial about any of that?
Just to be clear, Great Britain didn't defeat the Nazis in WWII, the Allies did. If not for America, Russia, and other European allies, GB would be speaking German today.
Pretty much guarantee if you voted MAGA or support those ideals, or even if you can't clearly see that MAGA stands for everything America should hate, you are just a shitty person. It's not intellectualism, it isn't "both sides are bad". One side is literal pedophile nazis, and the other wants to be governed by laws and have Healthcare. Fuck all MAGA, the day will come that you have to pay for the choices you made, and that day is FAST approaching.
Man I like this guy, he says what I think so inquisitively
What a bumbling buffoon
all of the above?
That host was very aggressive and didn't let the old man finish a SINGLE sentence.
Fun fact due to our differences in age and geographic location mean from a generational perspective when my family was enslaved, Kamala Harris’ family owned slaves.
Except pride and guilt are not analogous. It would be more like taking credit for defeating the Nazis in this example. You can be proud of something without taking credit for it (something your parents, a sibling, partner, or your child have done for instance).
It’s sad to see so much intellect paired with so much contempt-prior-to-investigation.
I mean, I recognize how wrong the slave trade was, but I feel absolutely zero guilt about it, I didn't do it, you can feel pride in what your parents or grandparents accomplished, and you can feel disappointment or disdain for it, but guilt? Get out of here, do you guys feel guilty when your siblings do something wrong? Do you feel guilty when people you don't know do something wrong? Guilt is personal, and I do not feel it about slavery. I do feel disgust, disdain, disappointment, maybe even hatred for the people who bought and sold human beings to be used as property and for their ancestors who perpetate the ongoing bigotry against the ancestors of those enslaved people and for holding back us as a species in general, but not guilt. You can be proud of your heritage, you can feel embarrassed by it as well, but why the fuck am going to be "guilty" when all I ever did was be born white?
His eyes darting back and forth as he's trying to figure how to wordplay his way out of the hole he dug
The interviewer is derailing the conversation by not letting him finish a thought. That's not debate, that's manipulation.
Stuttering guy is right, he’s just not as aggressive as the asshole he’s talking to
The words he was looking for was "You cannot be culpable for something you did not do or cause, but you can feel guilty for benefitting from it."
The opposite of pride is shame.
You can be proud of your ancestral achievement, and yet be ashamed of what crimes they have committed.
You are not responsible for their achievement, not are you guilty for their crimes.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Someone got cooked! Fine work Mehdi!
We saw him buffering in real time. Kudos to the interviewer there, great job
Is there any guilt in Asian society over their slavery?
I wonder who was responsible for rounding up the people and then selling them into slavery. Oh that’s right, their own people. We are all shit.
Chattel slavery =/= to old world slavery I'm not saying old world slavery is ok or acceptable, but I doubt the people selling their own countrymen would still do it of they knew that it would go on for generation after generation. They didn't know that they were dooming the children of the people they sold into perpetual slavery based on race so this argument is a bit thin.
Isn’t it interesting how we recognise institutions, like a government or nation, as real or imaginary depending entirely on whether it makes us feel good or bad.
Freedom good, America real.
Slavery bad, America imaginary.
Yes I feel the same way about this topic.
I am portuguese and on school we are taught that the age of discoveries was a great achievement that united the world and brought great benefits to everyone. Slavery and colonialism are downplayed (usually by saying we weren't as bad as the Spanish or British when we were as bad).
When talking about slavery and reparations most portuguese people will say that that was a long time ago and we shouldn't feel guilty for the sins of our ancestors. But then they will have no problems saying how pride they are of our "Brave sea men" history as if they are different topics
This is a false equivalency. Pride and Guilt are not too sides of the same coin. Although he is correct in that we can't be proud of winning a war we didn't take part in.
I understand that it is also pride in oneself that holds individuals back, but I still can't help but wonder why he couldn't just be like, "damn you know what, that's a good point and I didn't think about that"
Fell apart quickly
Haha that guy's gotta funny name
Not a historical argument. Impact of slavery and colonialism continue to to shape the world today.
A fool and his BS are soon parted.
He writes a book about 'imaginary guilt' but never thinks about it deeply enough to see his logic is flawed.
His logic is sound. He's 100% correct. You cannot feel guilt for something you didn't do. You can feel ashamed but not guilty. Whereas as you can feel pride, by definition, from someone else's achievements. This whole argument was disingenuous and he was set up from the beginning to get a rage bit.
Guilt noun
Pride noun
Opposing guilt with pride is simply dishonest.
Pride is opposed to shame, and guilt to innocence.
Being proud of what our ancestors did when they fought Nazism and fascism does not mean that I walk around wearing a “WWII veteran” cap.
We can feel a sense of pride in belonging to a collective history without taking credit for it.
We can feel shame in belonging to this history when it recounts crimes without feeling guilt.
Acknowledging history is not the same as inheriting guilt.
“We” “our” “us” man needs to understand that he can think separately from nationalist sentiments.
I've seen a bit more of this.
To be fair, this guy did make quite a bit better argument for his stance than some other interlocutors in the discussions they organized.
It is still not a very strong one, but some people that came to these discussions just had goddamn stupid arguments full of holes in their logic.
He also took some of it down a notch or two when confronted with a better or a more complete stance. We saw one of it here.