Any ounce of class consciousness gets instantly turned into partisanship and then dismantled. It’s really interesting to see how people hate hate HATE their current political system, either Democrat or Republican, yet instead of being conscious they’re just like “oh well, one’s not as bad as the other.” I don’t like that people think structural change is ushered in through reforms. But what else is there to do

  • Hello and thank you for visiting r/theredleft! We are glad to have you! While here, please try to follow these rules so we can keep discussion in good faith and maintain the good vibes: 1. A user flair is required to participate in this community, do not whine about this, you may face a temporary ban if you do.

    2.No personal attacks
    Debate ideas, not people. Calling someone names or dragging their personal life in ain’t allowed.

    3.Blot out the names of users and subreddits in screenshots and such to prevent harrassment. We do not tolerate going after people, no matter how stupid or bad they might be.

    4.No spam or self-promo
    Keep it relevant. No random ads or people pushing their own stuff everywhere.

    5.Stay at least somewhat on topic
    This is a leftist space, so keep posts about politics, economics, social issues, etc. Memes are allowed but only if they’re political or related to leftist ideas.

    6.Respect differing leftist opinions
    Respect the opinions of other leftists—everyone has different ideas on how things should work and be implemented. None of this is worth bashing each other over. Do not report people just because their opinion differs from yours.

    7.No reactionary thought
    We are an anti-capitalist, anti-Zionist, anti-fascist, anti-liberal, anti-bigotry, pro-LGBTQIA+, pro-feminist community. This means we do not tolerate hatred toward disabled, LGBTQIA+, or mentally challenged people. We do not accept the defense of oppressive ideologies, including reactionary propaganda or historical revisionism (e.g., Black Book narratives).

    8.Don’t spread misinformation
    Lying and spreading misinformation is not tolerated. The "Black Book" also falls under this. When reporting something for misinformation, back up your claim with sources or an in-depth explanation. The mod team doesn’t know everything, so explain clearly.

    9.Do not glorify any ideology
    While this server is open to people of all beliefs, including rightists who want to learn, we do not allow glorification of any ideology or administration. No ideology is perfect. Stick to truth grounded in historical evidence. Glorification makes us seem hypocritical and no better than the right.

    10.No offensive language or slurs
    Basic swearing is okay, but slurs—racial, bigoted, or targeting specific groups—are not allowed. This includes the word "Tankie" except in historical contexts.

    11.No capitalism, only learning — mod discretion
    This is a leftist space and we reject many right-wing beliefs. If you wish to participate, do so in good faith and with the intent to learn. The mod team reserves the right to remove you if you're trolling or spreading capitalist/liberal dogma. Suspicious post/comment history or association with known disruptive subs may also result in bans. Appeals are welcome if you feel a ban was unfair.

    I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

  • I mean, one IS much better than the other.. not good by any means, but better. Especially if you're trans, female, non-white etc.

    Try not to blame the people fighting fascism in any way they can, but rather the fascists - and the ruler class that is pushing fascism to destroy class consciousness.

    I’ve stooped as low as supporting Gavin Newsom just to try and develop the left and fight fascism. Better him than Just Dance Vance

  • The question so popular in leftist circles – “why don’t the workers have a revolution instead of keep capitalism going?” – is a false question.

    It derives from the assumption that they, the “little people,” really must do something different than they do. But they don’t have to. It is so glibly put, as though it were some kind of higher necessity that the proletariat has to obey whether it wants to or not. Such a law is given neither by nature nor by “history,” but solely by the idealism of vulgar materialist worldviews.

    That capitalism, with its regime of business and power, gives the wage earners enough reasons for a revolution, in no way means – as is suggested – that this is therefore “inevitable.” Exploitation is not a stimulus to which the workers (must) react with a conditioned reflex by abolishing it. Whether they enter into struggle against the system of wage labor is a question of insight into the nature of capitalism’s class antagonism and the will to end it. Otherwise nothing happens, i.e. the old shit continues!

    The question why “the masses” do not have a revolution acts as though these masses constantly grapple with a problem: whether they should now take part in or dump the whole business. But nobody has this problem, who participates. In any case, no worker asks himself before going to the factory in the morning whether he wouldn’t actually rather be the “historical subject of revolution.” He goes because he needs money, and afterwards goes home, where he sees how far he can stretch his meager means. Nothing is more ridiculous than the idea that by doing so he has decided against his “real mission.”

    Nowadays, the whole question is posed only rhetorically by leftist critical thinkers to fertilize philosophical seminars. It is already meant to be an answer, namely in this way: the mere fact that the revolution has not yet taken place is probably argument enough. And indeed to declare the reasons for revolution are obsolete. So the metaphysical determinist theory is not criticized, but creatively applied. The slogan is recited backwards: if an uprising doesn’t happen, it obviously isn’t necessary (any more)! “Necessary” and appropriate are therefore always exactly the “resistance” and the “social movements” that just exist – because: otherwise there would not be this, but something else. So eco-greens and feminism are given academic appreciation for the same reason that the self-created bogeyman of a proletarian mission is historical-philosophically and sociologically entombed.

    (MSZ 1988)

    Reminds me of that crude saying i heard recently about ecology : The end of the month is a bigger concern than the end of the world

  • Stay with me here because there's nuance.

    Reforms will not fix or end capitalism. They do make the lives of the people under these systems much, much better - the difference between the quality of live under say Norwegian social democracy compared to American neoliberalism is massive. Universal healthcare for Americans would be a dramatic improvement in their living standards, for example.

    But yes, there will still be horrific poverty, dire mental health, and recurring economic crises if only reform is the goal. What is much more valuable than reform is the reformers.

    Even outside of America, but definitely within it, the rise of Bernie Sanders in 2015 convinced a lot of liberals and even some neofascist types that something called 'socialism' is a glaringly obvious way forward. Bernie called himself a demsoc when he was in actuality a socdem and that's it's own can of worms, but his campaign significantly shifted the Overton window and opened people's minds against red scare propaganda. I know that many, many people have since been curious about what else there is to know about socialism and gone on to actually read theory and moved beyond bernies centrist reformism - but without him these journeys would not have begun. I had the same thing here in the UK with Jeremy corbyn, and bernie played a part of that.

    The masses experiment with social democracy for a bit, and when they see capitalist backsliding and the still existing problems with a capitalist underbelly, those that didn't explore further into leftism will be forced to by the failures of social democracy. But as we see with conservatives that aren't homophobic because they have a lesbian daughter we know that stories and textbooks telling people how this knowledge has already been gathered elsewhere in the world aren't convinced until they have first hand experience. Social democracy is a necessary step for at the very least advanced and former-imperialist/colonial nations to go through because they are so tied to their relative comfort they are unwilling to risk it until absolutely necessary.

    The masses experiment with social democracy for a bit, and when they see capitalist backsliding and the still existing problems with a capitalist underbelly, those that didn't explore further into leftism will be forced to by the failures of social democracy.

    And yet so many blame the continued “decline of social democracy” on the evil immigrants, younger generations, “big government” etc. There are no conditions that inherently make people revolutionary. If there were than some of the most impoverished countries would have built socialism by now — even a previous revolution being crushed should be more radicalization-fuel, no?

    But as we see with conservatives that aren't homophobic because they have a lesbian daughter we know that stories and textbooks telling people how this knowledge has already been gathered elsewhere in the world aren't convinced until they have first hand experience.

    Capitalism doesn’t suck for most people? Most people are not happy with the state of society, but it depends how they explain their problems.

    Social democracy is a necessary step for at the very least advanced and former-imperialist/colonial nations to go through because they are so tied to their relative comfort they are unwilling to risk it until absolutely necessary.

    This is a strange thing to say. A stronger capitalist welfare state and more “comfort” is necessary for people to realize capitalism sucks? Setting aside the question of whether that is any easier a task than revolution, why would that condition be beneficial for class consciousness?

    This is a strange thing to say. A stronger capitalist welfare state and more “comfort” is necessary for people to realize capitalism sucks? Setting aside the question of whether that is any easier a task than revolution, why would that condition be beneficial for class consciousness?

    Not the person you replied to but I think the logic is this: The aspects that make a stronger welfare state are all compromises that the ruling class makes to the working class, and serve as tangible things for the working class to fight for in the event of another backslide, creating a rallying point for political action.

    If strong labor unions were to lose their legal protections and empowerments that the state guarantees, workers are given an overt signal about the class violence enacted upon them, but this class consciousness would be lacking in a population that never had legal labor unions and were already treated worse by their employers, what is "normal" is different for both groups.

    When “nicer” capitalism disappears people will fight for “nicer” capitalism? Glad to know we live in the best of all possible worlds, where most people don’t critique capitalism but simply wish for — demand — a return to the good ol’ days.

    They already took unions away in the west. And yet when they were initially illegal they were more militant and powerful.

    What do you think would be the best path forward?

    At least in rhetoric/propaganda, we need to clearly insist and explain that our problems are inherent to the present form of societal organization (class society, commodity and capital reproduction) and not simply the momentary effect of “bad apples” or “tyrannical laws.” The important thing is that people have this revolutionary insight, not simply a positive association with a given word or party (opportunism).

    I should also remark on the contradictory suggestion that both “nicer” capitalism and “less nice” are preferable conditions for people to come around to our side (unlike the present “unrevolutionary” conditions.”)

  • Why would they be now? With AI slop producing all kinds of misinfo, lies and manipulations for the Bourgeoisie. Of course it doesn't allow people to develop class consciousness.

  • Soooo often I hear right wingers come this close: > . < to getting the point, but then they take a turn into either racism or conspiracy theories. People really will believe anything if it allows them to continue believing in capitalism.

    Hating “””the rich””” is not enough. People must understand why money’s existence hurts them.

  • If we are writing specifically about the US please say so otherwise it feels like you are assuming that everybody is in the states and that everything is in the states.

    Second, and more relevant to be fair, it's important to understand why class consciousness doesn't generally emerge spontaneously. The form of the wage-labour/capital relation obscures it, just as exchange obscures the essence of the value of commodities.

    Workers will fight back across a range of fronts, but unless we can constitute a working class organisation that has a clear sense that it is fighting for political power, and that it is independent of the capitalist parties, consciousness will be inhibited and will, as you say, be constantly thrown back.

    This means, to make a point relevant to the US, every time socialists and leftists start cheerleading for Democrat politicians, no matter how radical they may be at any given moment, they are setting the development of class consciousness back

  • Fights for reforms start the conversation that anything can be changed through action.

  • The important thing is it is growing now. All we need to do is ensure it grows, and we will eventually win. We need to keep agitating and keep pointing out how the bourgeoisie is rigging things. People are slowly waking up. 

  • Given how stuck people are in the 2 party system I feel like leftists should be running in both the democratic and republican primaries especially in super gerrymandered states where the only elections that matter are primary elections