And when the Indians become expensive they will move the jobs to Nigeria. And when the Nigerians become too expensive they will jump to another country. Rinse and repeat.
They are set up for a surprise then. Pretending that human reasoning can be simulated with graphic cards that only add and multiply has to be the biggest scam of human history.
None of this has anything to do with the nonsense you said about multiplication and addition. There's a difference in flattening ideas for humor and flattening knowledge to the point of misinfo.
Pretending that human reasoning can be simulated with graphic cards that only add and multiply has to be the biggest scam of human history.
NNs can approximate any function given sufficient complexity. The fact that there are things we have yet to make them do *points in general direction of AGI* doesn't mean your statement isn't stupid (it is).
That doesn't mean what you think it does, especially for AGI,
Then explain what you think it means.
which LLMs will not give us
LLMs will probably not produce AGI but they are a good stepping stone towards it. They can do stuff which wasn't possible before which is already achievement in itself. Saying that they won't lead to AGI doesn't make you enlightened, it only makes you look narrow minded as it either implies you think people think that or you cannot see beyond LLMs in the field of AI. Even if they become a complete dead end (I doubt it would be that bad but I am not excluding this possibility) they would still yield the benefit of increased interest in the field leading to further developments.
FYI your brain exists (hopefully) which gives us an upper estimate on minimum resources necessary for AGI. It also doesn't matter how inefficient the first one might be because it will be an achievement in itself which could be used make next ones ever more efficient.
There are already MS support personnel in Nigeria. I had to dead with them with M365 issues and it was a pain. At least train them properly if you wanna outsource.
American has lost 1.1 million jobs this year. Something tells me banning H1B isn't gonna make much difference if they only allowed 85k H1B annually. Offshoring is the bigger issue.
Basically that’s why my previous company did. Our whole selling point used to be local based support. The owners sold it to VCs. And slowly everything went to India. I left, my job went from helping customers out to getting yelled at for the incompetence
IBM did that to BP Global about 20 yrs ago. Took over the support worldwide for all English, Spanish, Portuguese speaking countries or locals.
Initially the support desks were in Tulsa, Toronto and a few other places.
Within 3 years everything except the white gloves support for the corporate aristocracy at no1 St James Square had been outsourced to India
Anytime there is an Indian CEO or CTO you can bet H1Bs or outsourcing is on the list. They take care of their own. AI isn't "artificial intelligence" it's "actually indians".
h1bs and visa holders don't earn less than american workers, but are certainly far more willing to do more to keep their job, at the risk of being laid off and having to give up the new life they built
I can assure you that nobody fucks over and abuses Indian workers like Indians. If there is credence to your thought, it has nothing to do with benevolence to their former countrymen, and everything to do with knowing how to extract the most from it. And perhaps having the entire office stand when you walk in and call you “sir” for everything…
This phrase fell out use in the rest of the English speaking world, but continued to be used in India.
Because people hear it used only by Indians these days, it's mistakenly thought of as some weird phrase made up in Indian English. But it's as British as tea* and crumpets.
Its English language but of Indian origin. India has 250 million English speakers, second only to the US so there are idioms like this one that are distinct to Indian English.
This is a common misconception. It's actually an old British idiom that stopped being used by the British, but kept going in India. (see my other reply)
I was going to say this is just the normal December layoffs to move more positions to India. It’s like Microsoft’s version of a Christmas party. Most of the rest of big tech too. If you’re too big to have a real Christmas party your team was at least looked at for a reduction in force.
Imagine you are almost 60, a millionaire, and probably have everything you need, but still trying to make more money. I can’t understand what is their end goal.
As bad as Satya Nadella is, I don't think he became a CEO by accident. Hustling has become second nature to these CEOs that they would become insane if they didn't work. They specifically choose this lifestyle because it's fulfilling to them.
These companies would lay off every single employee if they could, we mean nothing to them. We’re commodities, furniture that they have to pay due to those pesky human rights laws. They hate us and they hate that they have to pay us.
Someone think of all those poor unowned Mega Yachts. Next thing you'll have them being used as ferries or fishing boats. They can barely stay afloat without a large supply of coke and ketamine on board.
You joke but that is what they are doing. The existing business model is slowing or failing in a way that will cause the stock price to drop, and the executive is paid almost exclusively in stock-based compensation. So at that point they are just looking for some way to pump the stock. They can either start doing layoffs right away to make the bottom line look better, or they can try to pivot to some speculative and unproven business model with promises that if it works, they'll also be able to do mass layoffs but in a more win-win way for the business. Either way it's layoffs to drive up the stock price, while distracting investors away from the fact that their actual business model is not worth what they're paying.
There is a certain inevitability for this to happen to all the high P/E ratio tech companies. They were always a bubble, and if it wasn't for AI, they would be looking at something else to foist onto investors. Just look at Elon Musk. He's done humanoid robots, self driving cars, reinventing trains, colonies on mars, cave submarines, etc. Oh, and crypto! And in the meantime, nobody else can do layoffs with the panache of Elon Musk.
don't let your hate on rank and file Indian workers blind you, when your attention should be on Indian CTO/CEOs (who would absolutely throw indian rank and file under a buss for cheaper offshore if they could)
The funny thing.. other fucking Indians are included in on that "everyone hates Indian outsourcing companies" comment. I hear the most shit about outsourced work from Indians that are forced to work with those outsourced indians.
This is why it's so funny to me that I keep seeing this stereotype of Indians hiring only Indians. Anybody who actually knows any Indians would know they do not want to hire or work with other Indians.
People think that Americans and Europeans are racist against Indians, but that absolutely pales in comparison to how racist Indians are against other Indians.
There is not a lot of Eastern European CEO at the helm of big tech. But take Google, Microsoft, Adobe, IBM or WeWork. Even Grammarly, an Eastern European company from Kiev, is now with an Indian as a CEO. There is a clear preference from those to outsource to Indian companies, but they are doing it efficiently and the boards are more than happy with them.
Its unfortunately not just microsoft. So many fucking companies are using shit like this as justification for forever layoffs. My company has gone from layoffs every ~February to layoffs literally every week - just smaller ones, ones that don't make big waves in the media.
I disliked the old Windows monopoly.. but I enjoyed using Microsoft products. I had a Windows Phone, Xbox and I believed Windows 8 would one day kill the iPad. Microsoft could had been so much more... everything got so bad at Microsoft.
Yeah. The only thing keeping me from moving to Linux is GamePass. And the only reason I’d move to Linux is because I already have the hardware for it. Otherwise I’d have gone MacOS a while back. I’m not huge on Mac but at least they do believe in privacy to a point.
The phone by Microsoft was good, but they dropped the ball with marketing.
I wonder after the layoffs and the bubble burst how many techs out there will be interested in going back to these companies knowing they will just toss you aside again the min they need a boost in stocks
I work for a financial institution and layoffs are around the corner. As much as I know this is terrible for us, there is a truth about it which is the fact that we are working for “private” corporations, which their major motive is profitability. In anytime they seek to cut costs or have a strategy change, they will always go for layoffs.
It might be hard to say that, but it’s not the problem of layoffs, or the private profit-driven businesses, it’s us or those who take jobs for granted, and here when the so called “Plan B” kicks in.
This. So many people fail to take advantage of tuition assistance or any other skills training companies pay for. Constantly upskill. The job you have now may vanish, it is your responsibility to maintain job relevant skills.
It is reality. The age of working at the local factory for 40 years, then retiring with a pension has long since past. You are expendable at every job.
I dont think we even need to read the article to know more layoffs are coming from big tech.
Whether the AI bubble burst, or it doesn’t, the one thing that is certain is more layoffs.
Profits go down, layoffs.
Profits go up, believe it or not, also layoffs.
Profits stay the same? Layoffs.
A lot of companies see the profits staying the same as being the same thing as them going down. Because their brains are rotted by capitalism.
We have the best company in the world. Because of layoffs.
Under cook, over cook.
They do layoffs every year. There is nothing new here.
Year? It's been a week.
The layoffs won’t stop until the entire workforce is located in India.
And when the Indians become expensive they will move the jobs to Nigeria. And when the Nigerians become too expensive they will jump to another country. Rinse and repeat.
They are hoping that the final destination will be some AI datacenter doing all the work for the cost of electricity.
Woah, you think THEY are going to pay for that electricity? That's the responsibility of everyone around the data center to pick up.
They are set up for a surprise then. Pretending that human reasoning can be simulated with graphic cards that only add and multiply has to be the biggest scam of human history.
Well, that’s what they believe and why they are shedding employees so fast.
They've just gotta download more ram!
Exactly, no souless machine can ever compare to the sanctity of the human- What do you mean this is a sub about technology?
I hate that these tech lords are so toxic and ruined the field of artificial intelligence that these kinds of antiintellectual nonsense gets upvoted.
I’m not anti intellectual, I’m against dishonesty.
And the snack oil sellers, are being dishonest. They are selling something that is impossible.
None of this has anything to do with the nonsense you said about multiplication and addition. There's a difference in flattening ideas for humor and flattening knowledge to the point of misinfo.
NNs can approximate any function given sufficient complexity. The fact that there are things we have yet to make them do *points in general direction of AGI* doesn't mean your statement isn't stupid (it is).
Interestingly confidently wrong, but you do you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_approximation_theorem
That doesn't mean what you think it does, especially for AGI, which LLMs will not give us. Better stick to using your LLM to generate hentai.
Then explain what you think it means.
LLMs will probably not produce AGI but they are a good stepping stone towards it. They can do stuff which wasn't possible before which is already achievement in itself. Saying that they won't lead to AGI doesn't make you enlightened, it only makes you look narrow minded as it either implies you think people think that or you cannot see beyond LLMs in the field of AI. Even if they become a complete dead end (I doubt it would be that bad but I am not excluding this possibility) they would still yield the benefit of increased interest in the field leading to further developments.
Sweet. All we need is a city sized neural net and maybe we can consistently evaluate 5+14.
FYI your brain exists (hopefully) which gives us an upper estimate on minimum resources necessary for AGI. It also doesn't matter how inefficient the first one might be because it will be an achievement in itself which could be used make next ones ever more efficient.
https://youtube.com/shorts/MY1Hxmg3tio?si=kmifiS1vtqRatbUI
And then Mars once the earth is destroyed
Then they will layoff the electricity because its costing them money
There are already MS support personnel in Nigeria. I had to dead with them with M365 issues and it was a pain. At least train them properly if you wanna outsource.
The Philippines is also quickly becoming a common offshoring destination
They are already shifting to eastern Europe from India
Meh, unless the tech managerial class in the US gets captured by Nigerians then unlikely.
I bet the crashed US will be after Nigeria
They won't stop until their workforce is basically a giant data center with zero employees.
Then they'll lay off the data center.
The letter will start with "My dearest clanker"
American has lost 1.1 million jobs this year. Something tells me banning H1B isn't gonna make much difference if they only allowed 85k H1B annually. Offshoring is the bigger issue.
Basically that’s why my previous company did. Our whole selling point used to be local based support. The owners sold it to VCs. And slowly everything went to India. I left, my job went from helping customers out to getting yelled at for the incompetence
IBM did that to BP Global about 20 yrs ago. Took over the support worldwide for all English, Spanish, Portuguese speaking countries or locals. Initially the support desks were in Tulsa, Toronto and a few other places. Within 3 years everything except the white gloves support for the corporate aristocracy at no1 St James Square had been outsourced to India
Anytime there is an Indian CEO or CTO you can bet H1Bs or outsourcing is on the list. They take care of their own. AI isn't "artificial intelligence" it's "actually indians".
their own pocket is what you mean
h1bs and visa holders don't earn less than american workers, but are certainly far more willing to do more to keep their job, at the risk of being laid off and having to give up the new life they built
H1Bs absolutely earn less than American workers
https://www.epi.org/press/a-majority-of-migrant-workers-employed-with-h-1b-visas-are-paid-below-median-wages-large-tech-firms-including-amazon-google-and-microsoft-use-visa-program-to-underpay-workers/
H1b is just a test run for outsourcing, nothing more
Oh really? They ‘work more’? Must be magic, because last I checked they put in the same hours as any American.
They don't work harder they just don't have the luxury of complaining or risking starting the 60 day eviction from the country if they're let go.
I can assure you that nobody fucks over and abuses Indian workers like Indians. If there is credence to your thought, it has nothing to do with benevolence to their former countrymen, and everything to do with knowing how to extract the most from it. And perhaps having the entire office stand when you walk in and call you “sir” for everything…
Still trying to find out where "do the needful" comes from...
Fun fact, this is proper British English. For an example look at the Journal of Sir Walter Scott (https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/14860/pg14860.txt) and search for the phrase "done the needful".
This phrase fell out use in the rest of the English speaking world, but continued to be used in India.
Because people hear it used only by Indians these days, it's mistakenly thought of as some weird phrase made up in Indian English. But it's as British as tea* and crumpets.
(*yes I know tea comes from China)
I knew someone on the internet had the answer! Good day to you old chap!
English? All of the words in the phrase come from the English language.
Its English language but of Indian origin. India has 250 million English speakers, second only to the US so there are idioms like this one that are distinct to Indian English.
This is a common misconception. It's actually an old British idiom that stopped being used by the British, but kept going in India. (see my other reply)
Yep yep yep.
Yeah, totally.. just like Amazon’s CEO Andy Jassy is famously Indian, right?
Come on. At least get your facts straight before posting something this blatantly racist.
Oh no 😟 please don’t call me racist while I’m losing my livelihood
He didn't say wypipo don't outsource.
They will do the needful.
Yup, they are doing excellent work and taking your job as well. Lol.
You know the old saying AI is Actually Indians
I was going to say this is just the normal December layoffs to move more positions to India. It’s like Microsoft’s version of a Christmas party. Most of the rest of big tech too. If you’re too big to have a real Christmas party your team was at least looked at for a reduction in force.
Guess what AI really stands for. /s
People keep saying this but that not at all what’s happening.
hopefully he is including himself. he's been awful
Honestly if I was as wealthy as he is, I would lay myself off and go skiing for the rest of my life. It would make for an epic headline too
Imagine you are almost 60, a millionaire, and probably have everything you need, but still trying to make more money. I can’t understand what is their end goal.
Sure you can. It's greed. It's always greed.
As bad as Satya Nadella is, I don't think he became a CEO by accident. Hustling has become second nature to these CEOs that they would become insane if they didn't work. They specifically choose this lifestyle because it's fulfilling to them.
Immortality
Keep working so he doesn’t think about his dead son. No shit, I think when that happened it broke him.
Not saying this has any connection to reality, but the shareholders disagree
hes just a cheerleader for shareholders. that wont last long
I don't know... it's been 12 years and a 1000% stock price increase.
Not a huge satya fan but it's hard to argue that he's just a fad but any metric measurable.
January layoffs are the new tech tradition. No signaling needed, you can practically set your clocks by it.
Every year since 2022 lmao. Unreal
Yeah, I figured. No news on my contract and can only assume. Been prepping for two months for it and really all I can do just in case.
Companies love having Christmas come early via layoffs.
Yeah google did them in Jan 2023. I’m sure there will be some next month.
These companies would lay off every single employee if they could, we mean nothing to them. We’re commodities, furniture that they have to pay due to those pesky human rights laws. They hate us and they hate that they have to pay us.
eh, maybe if shareholders stop rewarding this MO companies would stop doing it.
I agree but also at this point “shareholders” are like most Americans with an IRA/401k
Managed by investment funds. Yeah, its difficult I know
Microsoft needs a new CEO.
Billionaires need more money! /s
[deleted]
They are trying to throw you off with /s, billionaire AI bots are here to replace normal bots
A "/s" is a fairly common way to explicitly indicate sarcasm in text.
Where is the sarcasm here… did they outsource sarcasm already? How about a data center in rural villages taking all the water for AI detected sarcasm
Someone think of all those poor unowned Mega Yachts. Next thing you'll have them being used as ferries or fishing boats. They can barely stay afloat without a large supply of coke and ketamine on board.
Lol "fresh" layoffs.
You mean more. More layoffs
AI strategy (or product) ain't working, 'course he's going to do layoffs.
It's the new norm for tech CEOs. Sadly.
AI strategy is working? More layoffs!
You joke but that is what they are doing. The existing business model is slowing or failing in a way that will cause the stock price to drop, and the executive is paid almost exclusively in stock-based compensation. So at that point they are just looking for some way to pump the stock. They can either start doing layoffs right away to make the bottom line look better, or they can try to pivot to some speculative and unproven business model with promises that if it works, they'll also be able to do mass layoffs but in a more win-win way for the business. Either way it's layoffs to drive up the stock price, while distracting investors away from the fact that their actual business model is not worth what they're paying.
There is a certain inevitability for this to happen to all the high P/E ratio tech companies. They were always a bubble, and if it wasn't for AI, they would be looking at something else to foist onto investors. Just look at Elon Musk. He's done humanoid robots, self driving cars, reinventing trains, colonies on mars, cave submarines, etc. Oh, and crypto! And in the meantime, nobody else can do layoffs with the panache of Elon Musk.
"It'll be hard, but your jobs are a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
I’m sorry but he is ridiculous. Microsoft is a mostly well-oiled machine that would continue to print money with the dumbest idiot at the helm.
He can’t even get customers to like Windows, all the while trying to force Co-Pilot down our throats, and he thinks he knows what’s best for AI?!
The first and only person who should be fired is Satya.
Boy, BYE!
They’re addicted to re-orgs and internal politics.
Has morale improved? No? Then the layoffs will continue...
Considering how most recent MS news is about their ai platform bombing on all fronts I think its pretty safe to say layoffs are on the horizon.
The company has literally zero idea on how to make products people want to actually use.
Maybe not anymore, but windows 95, 98se, 2000, xp and 7 were amazing. Office 2007 was great. Xbox and Xbox 360 were great.
They used to know how but they let short term distractions and a complete lack of caring about product or quality destroy them.
To hire Indians I bet.
don't let your hate on rank and file Indian workers blind you, when your attention should be on Indian CTO/CEOs (who would absolutely throw indian rank and file under a buss for cheaper offshore if they could)
Everyone hates Indian outsourcing companies, no-one hates Eastern European outsourcing companies. Wonder why.
The funny thing.. other fucking Indians are included in on that "everyone hates Indian outsourcing companies" comment. I hear the most shit about outsourced work from Indians that are forced to work with those outsourced indians.
This is why it's so funny to me that I keep seeing this stereotype of Indians hiring only Indians. Anybody who actually knows any Indians would know they do not want to hire or work with other Indians.
People think that Americans and Europeans are racist against Indians, but that absolutely pales in comparison to how racist Indians are against other Indians.
There is not a lot of Eastern European CEO at the helm of big tech. But take Google, Microsoft, Adobe, IBM or WeWork. Even Grammarly, an Eastern European company from Kiev, is now with an Indian as a CEO. There is a clear preference from those to outsource to Indian companies, but they are doing it efficiently and the boards are more than happy with them.
Is Andy Jassy an ‘Indian CEO’ too? You know, the guy running the company that brings in the most H-1Bs and offshores work?
He is laying off people who don't even work for him
Well supposedly they’ve built dashboards to track how much each person is using AI. It seems a bit ominous.
That is kind of what Nadella does. Layoff a bunch of people and then talk about how much empathy he has.
I used to think this guy was smart. Turns out he’s just a greedy moron. Microsoft is doomed
Microsoft is screwed in every possible way because the ego of these bastards in charge.
Its unfortunately not just microsoft. So many fucking companies are using shit like this as justification for forever layoffs. My company has gone from layoffs every ~February to layoffs literally every week - just smaller ones, ones that don't make big waves in the media.
Make sure yo get rid of anyone still left who is (not) testing this crap.
This is the future of big tech. Layoffs to sell AI products.
How else will he get his bonus this quarter? Thats all that matters.
AI isn't paying off. Oh no! What should we do?! I know! Fire more people! /s
Cut his salary in half and you could afford everyone he/they will lay off.
Who are they always laying off? It’s been a solid 2 years of layoffs and I can’t understand how there’s still more they can layoff.
Ever since this guy took over I’ve been liking Microsoft less and less.
And I fucking hated Microsoft.
I disliked the old Windows monopoly.. but I enjoyed using Microsoft products. I had a Windows Phone, Xbox and I believed Windows 8 would one day kill the iPad. Microsoft could had been so much more... everything got so bad at Microsoft.
Now I have iPhone, PlayStation, Mac.
Yeah. The only thing keeping me from moving to Linux is GamePass. And the only reason I’d move to Linux is because I already have the hardware for it. Otherwise I’d have gone MacOS a while back. I’m not huge on Mac but at least they do believe in privacy to a point.
The phone by Microsoft was good, but they dropped the ball with marketing.
Garbage spam site.
But the title is accurate, we are all getting shafted, outsourcing, AI, etc
And journalists are being outsourced to garbage spam sites in Kenya
Yeah we haven’t had real journalists in a long time
We're approaching a new year. Of course it is. At this point you can expect cuts every quarter.
Number must go up!! ☝️
Guys, it's almost Christmas. Of course, they're signaling layoffs.
Maybe we can get a tracking page of all these guys bonuses?
Yes. It's late Q4. This is the fucking norm now.
At this stage the only layoff MS should be making is Nadella. Try and save the company while they can.
Hey! Maybe they're laying off the ones who pushed for AI integration so hard leading to a sales slump and customers moving away from MS products!
/s for anyone that doesn't get it.
Gotta raise the stock price for investors somehow.
Layoffs because AI is so good it's going to replace you, and then more layoffs because AI is so bad that they lost a bunch of money with it.
I wonder after the layoffs and the bubble burst how many techs out there will be interested in going back to these companies knowing they will just toss you aside again the min they need a boost in stocks
Right now most tech workers don’t exactly have their pick of the lot, and some prioritize salary waaay too much
People absolutely will go back to them in the absence of similar paying job openings at other companies. Big tech exploits this
It was rumoured a while back there would be another round of layoffs in January.
so the greedy investors were hoping to grab 10x or more from what they invested, and now not happy when their wishful thinking didn’t work out.
Well they don’t have fresh products so what else is he going to do to meet his bonus targets?
It’s a race to the bottom now.
Sack ya Nadella.
If Job Creators get massive tax breaks, then Job Destroyers must be taxed into Oblivion.
Cant he start by laying himself and his ai adventures off.
I work for a financial institution and layoffs are around the corner. As much as I know this is terrible for us, there is a truth about it which is the fact that we are working for “private” corporations, which their major motive is profitability. In anytime they seek to cut costs or have a strategy change, they will always go for layoffs.
It might be hard to say that, but it’s not the problem of layoffs, or the private profit-driven businesses, it’s us or those who take jobs for granted, and here when the so called “Plan B” kicks in.
This. So many people fail to take advantage of tuition assistance or any other skills training companies pay for. Constantly upskill. The job you have now may vanish, it is your responsibility to maintain job relevant skills.
This is some wild corporate rim licking
It is reality. The age of working at the local factory for 40 years, then retiring with a pension has long since past. You are expendable at every job.