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Well, depends on what you mean by tankie. Cause if you go with the more used definition (stalin apologia, ussr glazing etc...) then not really. They are leninists toh and so they still have the flaws of leninism with them
thank you, at least someone trying to be accurate with the term :,D
Though there are Trots, coming from Pabloism or Spartakists that also follow a campist line of thought and act quite similar to tankies.
And Trotzky glazers ofc. exist widely under Trotskyists. I personally prefer to go with "take no heroes, only inspiration" (which includes learning from their mistakes as well)
In my experience they will defend the usual tankie talking points up until Lenin's death (anti Makhno, anti Krondstad, anti Putilov). I once went to an event organized by Trots (it was a Palestinian March) and it was good, but talking with the people I got bombarded with questions about theory and on how the Krondstad workers allied themselves with the white army lmao
Best Answer applies: it depends. First, let's define Trotskyism. It has a few main elements.
Continuous revolution: We're in a state of revolution until actual communism is achieved. There's no "socialism in one country" and no "socialism with chinese characteristics." As long as any form of governance besides direct democracy by the proletariat (the "dictatorship of the proletariat") exists there are comrades who are not free.
Proletarian internationalism: We are obligated to use the resources we have to help other proletariat. Without this we're playing whack-a-mole with the bourgeoisie.
A rejection of state capitalism: Capitalism is not considered a necessary step toward communism and is in fact counterproductive since the internal contradictions of capitalism limit development of the productive forces.
If that sounds pretty anti-authoritarian to you that's because it is. Now lets get to the bad news: with a few notable exceptions, modern Trotskyists rarely apply these ideals to their logical conclusions. As a Trotskyist myself I view other Trotskyists with suspicion until proven otherwise. I've been burned more than once by people I thought were solid only to find out they supported Russian imperialism, etc.
As for Trotsky himself, he was not a good dude. In my opinion he made many severe mistakes during his time leading the Red Army. I've tried to learn from the valuable bits of theory without trying to defend war crimes from a hundred years ago.
At what point do you just abandon the term Trotskyism? If you acknowledge he was not a good person, why do you still (effectively) identify as one of his followers?
Like, you wouldn’t find Stalinists who dislike Stalin or Maoists who dislike Mao. How can you be a Trotskyist who dislikes Trotsky?
The difference is that Trotskyism isn't a cult of personality. A lot of time and effort has been wasted by the left trying to reconcile the actions of their heroes with their own teachings when in reality they were just as susceptible to hypocrisy as everyone else.
It may be a bit of a hot take but centering your ideology around a single person is cult-y, whether it’s Stalin, Trotsky, or even Marx (I dislike the term Marxism for that exact reason, although I don’t have too many issues with most of the actual ideas).
Anarchists don’t call ourselves Bakuninites, Proudhonites, Kropotkinites, or Makhnovists.
Honestly, I don't know. However it's not fair to put us in the same camp as Stalinism. MLs like Stalinists, Maoists, Hoxhaists, Dengists, etc are a pattern, but not one that has anything to do with Trotskyism.
Marxism-Leninism was a term they invented to give themselves undue legitimacy but they are neither Marxist nor Leninist in practice. Trotskyism is not Marxist-Leninist and began before the term was ever used.
There is Posadism if you want to go down a rabbit hole, but pretty much everyone thinks this is batshit and wants to pretend it doesn't exist.
I don’t know, I do have issues with Trotskyists. The vast majority of them in my country are useless and ineffective. There’s also an argument that I often find myself agreeing with that Trotskyists (at least the more dedicated ones, who actually like Trotsky) don’t have an issue with Stalinism, as much as they do Stalin himself, and they’d 100% support the same shit Stalin did if Trotsky did it instead (I mean just look at Kronstadt). My biggest issue is they completely overlook how Stalin came to power. They seem to view Stalinism as a unique aberration, and not a logical next step from Leninism (which they support), which itself might even be a logical next step from Marxism (I’m less inclined to think that but I’ve seen those arguments made). Almost like how American libs view Trump lol.
As for my problems with Marxism (and this is ignoring all my problems with the Marxism espoused by Leninists and their ilk):
Centralising the state. Complete absence of any discussion about hierarchy and power. No mechanism for preventing the DoTP from actually becoming a dictatorship of an individual. His constant attacks on anarchism. Etc.
Majority of it I agree with, but I don’t like identifying as a Marxist a) because I’m an an anarchist first and foremost, and b) I don’t like tying my beliefs to those of an upper-class German from >150 years ago (and they’re not unique to him)
Trotzkyism wasn't a self chosen name.
The Trotzkyist of old called themselves Bolshevik-Leninist but constantly got called Trotskyists.
Originally the term Trotzkyist was used to defame anyone critical of the course of the 3rd International. Later it was just adabted cause there is no point in constantly arguing about it.
Same with some MLs calling themselves Stalinist now, as that was also not a self chosen term originally. Though the vast majority of Stalinists still insist on being called ML, whilst you won't find the same with Trotskyists.
Yeah. Just because one doesn't like Stalin does not mean that they don't support authoritarian socialism. "The Russian Revolution would've succeeded if OUR guy was in charge!" does not give them a pass.
Not always but sometimes, certainly I would define Workers World and the Sparticist League that way whereas groups like IS or other ex-Schactmanite groups not so much.
I like to think of them as being akin to never-Trump Republicans here in the US: they right balk at a lot of the negative outcomes of Marxism-Leninism but support all of the structures that led to it (party dictatorship, militarization of labor, dismantling of worker control, etc). Read Emma Goldman's essay Trotsky Protests Too Much to see what I mean. Trotskyism as an ideology survives because Trotsky was able to successfully rebrand in exile but I think the MLs are largely right when they say that, had Trotsky succeeded Lenin, he'd have not been substantially different from Stalin and in an alternate timeline there is a communist sect called Stalinists whining about how the only reason we don't have communism now is that Stalin never got to control the police state.
I would say yes. Trotskyism is still descended from Leninism, which is red fascism. Even if they won't throw flowery praise on Stalin, its not because they're at odds with what he did, they're at odds with him purging Trotsky and Trotsky not being in charge.
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Well, depends on what you mean by tankie. Cause if you go with the more used definition (stalin apologia, ussr glazing etc...) then not really. They are leninists toh and so they still have the flaws of leninism with them
thank you, at least someone trying to be accurate with the term :,D
Though there are Trots, coming from Pabloism or Spartakists that also follow a campist line of thought and act quite similar to tankies.
And Trotzky glazers ofc. exist widely under Trotskyists. I personally prefer to go with "take no heroes, only inspiration" (which includes learning from their mistakes as well)
you're actually wrong. if you actually used WSWS's socialism AI you would know that Trotsky > 1 billion people
https://preview.redd.it/uccg0w7kzd7g1.jpeg?width=707&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8c18442af85dbb5014ff1f0bf3f4305ab07164e7
Holy mother of utilitarianist "rational"😵💫
In my experience they will defend the usual tankie talking points up until Lenin's death (anti Makhno, anti Krondstad, anti Putilov). I once went to an event organized by Trots (it was a Palestinian March) and it was good, but talking with the people I got bombarded with questions about theory and on how the Krondstad workers allied themselves with the white army lmao
Putilov? Never heard that name
Best Answer applies: it depends. First, let's define Trotskyism. It has a few main elements.
Continuous revolution: We're in a state of revolution until actual communism is achieved. There's no "socialism in one country" and no "socialism with chinese characteristics." As long as any form of governance besides direct democracy by the proletariat (the "dictatorship of the proletariat") exists there are comrades who are not free.
Proletarian internationalism: We are obligated to use the resources we have to help other proletariat. Without this we're playing whack-a-mole with the bourgeoisie.
A rejection of state capitalism: Capitalism is not considered a necessary step toward communism and is in fact counterproductive since the internal contradictions of capitalism limit development of the productive forces.
If that sounds pretty anti-authoritarian to you that's because it is. Now lets get to the bad news: with a few notable exceptions, modern Trotskyists rarely apply these ideals to their logical conclusions. As a Trotskyist myself I view other Trotskyists with suspicion until proven otherwise. I've been burned more than once by people I thought were solid only to find out they supported Russian imperialism, etc.
As for Trotsky himself, he was not a good dude. In my opinion he made many severe mistakes during his time leading the Red Army. I've tried to learn from the valuable bits of theory without trying to defend war crimes from a hundred years ago.
Basically DOOMSLAYERMUNISM But ngl more sane than stalinism and amoism
At what point do you just abandon the term Trotskyism? If you acknowledge he was not a good person, why do you still (effectively) identify as one of his followers?
Like, you wouldn’t find Stalinists who dislike Stalin or Maoists who dislike Mao. How can you be a Trotskyist who dislikes Trotsky?
The difference is that Trotskyism isn't a cult of personality. A lot of time and effort has been wasted by the left trying to reconcile the actions of their heroes with their own teachings when in reality they were just as susceptible to hypocrisy as everyone else.
So why name your beliefs after them?
It may be a bit of a hot take but centering your ideology around a single person is cult-y, whether it’s Stalin, Trotsky, or even Marx (I dislike the term Marxism for that exact reason, although I don’t have too many issues with most of the actual ideas).
Anarchists don’t call ourselves Bakuninites, Proudhonites, Kropotkinites, or Makhnovists.
Honestly, I don't know. However it's not fair to put us in the same camp as Stalinism. MLs like Stalinists, Maoists, Hoxhaists, Dengists, etc are a pattern, but not one that has anything to do with Trotskyism.
Marxism-Leninism was a term they invented to give themselves undue legitimacy but they are neither Marxist nor Leninist in practice. Trotskyism is not Marxist-Leninist and began before the term was ever used.
There is Posadism if you want to go down a rabbit hole, but pretty much everyone thinks this is batshit and wants to pretend it doesn't exist.
What Marxist ideas do you have issues with?
I don’t know, I do have issues with Trotskyists. The vast majority of them in my country are useless and ineffective. There’s also an argument that I often find myself agreeing with that Trotskyists (at least the more dedicated ones, who actually like Trotsky) don’t have an issue with Stalinism, as much as they do Stalin himself, and they’d 100% support the same shit Stalin did if Trotsky did it instead (I mean just look at Kronstadt). My biggest issue is they completely overlook how Stalin came to power. They seem to view Stalinism as a unique aberration, and not a logical next step from Leninism (which they support), which itself might even be a logical next step from Marxism (I’m less inclined to think that but I’ve seen those arguments made). Almost like how American libs view Trump lol.
As for my problems with Marxism (and this is ignoring all my problems with the Marxism espoused by Leninists and their ilk): Centralising the state. Complete absence of any discussion about hierarchy and power. No mechanism for preventing the DoTP from actually becoming a dictatorship of an individual. His constant attacks on anarchism. Etc.
Majority of it I agree with, but I don’t like identifying as a Marxist a) because I’m an an anarchist first and foremost, and b) I don’t like tying my beliefs to those of an upper-class German from >150 years ago (and they’re not unique to him)
Trotzkyism wasn't a self chosen name. The Trotzkyist of old called themselves Bolshevik-Leninist but constantly got called Trotskyists.
Originally the term Trotzkyist was used to defame anyone critical of the course of the 3rd International. Later it was just adabted cause there is no point in constantly arguing about it.
Same with some MLs calling themselves Stalinist now, as that was also not a self chosen term originally. Though the vast majority of Stalinists still insist on being called ML, whilst you won't find the same with Trotskyists.
they are marxist leninists who draw the line at stalin. in practice they are all authoritarians
It's not libertarian socialism.
The trots are always arguing between themselves because they all want to be Vozhd
Trots are essentially just tankies who hate Stalin.
which is based.
Yeah. Just because one doesn't like Stalin does not mean that they don't support authoritarian socialism. "The Russian Revolution would've succeeded if OUR guy was in charge!" does not give them a pass.
Not always but sometimes, certainly I would define Workers World and the Sparticist League that way whereas groups like IS or other ex-Schactmanite groups not so much.
I like to think of them as being akin to never-Trump Republicans here in the US: they right balk at a lot of the negative outcomes of Marxism-Leninism but support all of the structures that led to it (party dictatorship, militarization of labor, dismantling of worker control, etc). Read Emma Goldman's essay Trotsky Protests Too Much to see what I mean. Trotskyism as an ideology survives because Trotsky was able to successfully rebrand in exile but I think the MLs are largely right when they say that, had Trotsky succeeded Lenin, he'd have not been substantially different from Stalin and in an alternate timeline there is a communist sect called Stalinists whining about how the only reason we don't have communism now is that Stalin never got to control the police state.
I'd say so because Trotsky justified the crushing of Kronstadt
I would say yes. Trotskyism is still descended from Leninism, which is red fascism. Even if they won't throw flowery praise on Stalin, its not because they're at odds with what he did, they're at odds with him purging Trotsky and Trotsky not being in charge.
No but some Trotskyist behaves like Tankies and supporting tankies in comments.
define “tankie”
it’s an incredibly vague term, and you should probably just say what you actually mean.
are they authoritarians? yes. fundamentally they still claim descent from Lenin and his ideas.
Tankie-adjacent.
all leninists are.
"tankie" has become something of a blanket term for all authoritarian "socialists", soooo, yeah?