I'm pro se and suing a man and his dealership for a bunch of fraud and misrepresentation related tort claims. He painted up a machine to look new and put it in an auction with a completely bad engine without disclosing it. Anyways I feel like I have him dead to rights, his attorney didn't play discovery games and really coughed up a lot of bad documents and admissions that put him in a rough position. I also have clearly contradicting statements by him for impeachment.
To paint the picture clearer, this man is a felon, he was previously convicted of felony robbery and theft. However the state has still granted him a dealership license somehow. He also has other business ventures and I do admire where he came from to what he's accomplished but he still can't seem to get away from ripping people off when he has the opportunity, thus my lawsuit.
Anyways we had a pretrial, at the end the judge basically ordered us to have a settlement talk. Judge walks out and the defendant immediately started throwing a ghetto tantrum on me. His attorney tried to stop him but didn't succeed. It was their first time meeting as he hired a firm that specializes in this type of defense and I don't think they knew their client or that he had this kind of attitude - so they clearly didn't prep him.
He starts yelling about how he's going to "hire 3 or 4 lawyers" and counter sue me and take everything I have. He said he will sell everything he owns to win this case if he has to. He called me a scam artist because I've sued other people.
He did make a measley offer though. He thinks the exact difference of what I paid him minus the amount I managed to get out of the junk machine to mitigate my damages is all he owes me. I'm not being greedy but he's quite exposed to a lot more potential damages than that.
Just thought I'd share a funny story. Oh yeah his attorney did urge me in a panicked way to send her a settlement offer before they stormed out.
People still use the word ghetto like that?!
I got stuck on the fact that OP doesn't seem to think people who had past history with the law don't deserve business licenses.
Then they called the defendanta rant ghetto.....and everything cleared up.
Whether or not the guy purposefully scammed a customer or not, doesn't sound like either party is exactly stand-up.
Yeah if you committ fraud and are convicted you shouldn't get a business license period.
Except he wasnt convinced of fraud
Sometimes people with a history don't deserve business licenses. Let's say you are a real estate agent and had your license revoked as a result of disciplinary action from fraud.
You won't even be able to get a hairdresser's license. You will have to check that box yes on the form that says "have you ever had a license revoked?"
When you commit crimes of moral turpitude, you generally shouldn't be given special privileges by the state that make it easy for you to defraud people.
If the guy was actually acting like a gang banger then I'll let it pass, from what op writes, it sounds like it.
So.... you weren't deliberately being obtuse... you're just plain stupid.
Racists do
Question for you, why is it considered racist in your culture to use that word? Last I heard, it describes a real-world phenomena that's irrespective of race. The word originated iirc from when Germans forced Jews to move into tiny areas during WW2.
In the US there is (or at least had been) a stigma about saying openly racist statements, but less of one to slightly veiled statements. So if someone said, as in OP’s example - “he threw a black tantrum” that would be condemned as a clearly racist statement. But by saying “he threw a ghetto tantrum” OP can pretend he wasn’t referring to race. This is disingenuous, because ghetto is not used to refer to white people or to any other races of people, unless they’re doing things associated with black culture
Ghetto tantrum to me has nothing to do with race and everything to do with someone acting threatening or violent in response to being upset. It does also sort of paint the picture of them flailing their arms and puffing their chest up at you getting in your face etc.
It’s not a race thing and more of like a “hey this person can’t emotionally self regulate and will catch a felony if you call them names” thing and is usually provoked by them feeling slighted or disrespected or something like that.
The implication is that the implied violence of the reaction is absolutely not the appropriate response to whatever they are upset by and likely driven by a demand for respect from strangers that is completely not deserved.
I’ve witnessed ghetto tantrums from every race. It’s just how man children handle their baby boy fee fees when someone calls them out on their garbage.
Except it's not disingenuous regarding race. Ghetto is a culture unto itself. The assumption that Ghetto Culture is an explicitly black thing is what's racist. Ghetto Culture knows no race. Different internal cultures to Ghetto Culture do exist that are typically racially segregated, but describing something as Ghetto is not racial by itself.
If I describe a vehicle as being Ghetto, it conjures a very specific image. Usually a vehicle that is in poor condition with needless and pointless cosmetic upgrades that make it look silly to an outsider. Such upgrades can include, but are not limited to: Oversized free spinning rims, a , "low rider," modification, an ostentatious airbrushed paint job, a, "jumper," modification, an oversized stereo with heavy bass and not much else, unnecessary spoiler modifications, and glass pack mufflers. Each of those modifications is associated with a different racial subgroup, but all are frequently classified as, "Ghetto," modifications.
If I describe a clothing style as Ghetto, the same thing applies. Such styles include but are not limited to, designer tracksuits, Jordan Sneakers, White Sneakers, Timberland Workboots, low slung pants, heavy gold chains, over sized jewelry, Juicy Branded Leisure wear, wife beater style shirts as outerwear, colored bandanas, "do rags," flat trimmed baseball caps. Each of those is commonly associated with different racial subgroups that range from Eastern European to African American. Each is also commonly described as, "Ghetto."
Now, an important part that hasn't been mentioned thus far: Each of those styles and modifications and the like are also associated with criminal groups or illicitly grained wealth. Low slung pants for example originated in Prisons as a signal that the wearer had been claimed by another inmate and was, effectively, "someone's bitch." The low rider modifications originated as a means to smuggle illicit goods, or give the appearance of doing so, depending on what source you look at. Glass Pack mufflers originated on the illegal street racing scene as a means to disguise what was actually powering the vehicle, making a poor or weak engine seem mightier than it was. Same for unnecessary spoilers.
To describe something as Ghetto is to associate it with low income inner city regions and criminal activity. Nothing more. The assumption that saying something is Ghetto means it's racist, is itself a racist statement. Because YOU are the one projecting a racial stereotype onto the person or thing that's being described.
Saying a man acted Ghetto means that he was foul mouthed, unprofessional, combative, and generally rude while likely making illegal threats of violence or comparable behavior and using a dialect of language not associated with the space he was in. There is nothing racial or racist about ANY of that. If the language or threats has been described, we might be able to assume a specific race thanks to stereotypes within the Ghetto communities and subgroups, but no such information was given. And even then, that wouldn't be racist, that would simply be more descriptive information.
Chris Boden is easily described as Ghetto. The man is an electrical engineer who makes YouTube content. He is also more foulmouthed than an entire company of Army Engineers and works to teach people about electricity and electrical theory. He was also in prison for money laundering through BitCoin. He is also quite possibly the whitest man you've ever seen and regularly wears a butplug on his head for jokes.
If you hear Ghetto and assume racism, you're the racist.
So to you, only black people can be ghetto? Wow, okay.
That is true. And yet, for whatever reason, when i read the phrase "throwing a ghetto tantrum," I did not instantly picture the impassioned diatribe of a frightened and malnourished Polish Jew, railing against the unjust treatment of his people. I think very few people would.
I can't help but wonder if, at some point during the 8 decades and 7 months between the closing of the last such ghetto, and today, the word might have picked up some additional connotations.
No need for the vitriol. There's obviously cultural context, which is what I'm asking about. You don't use the word ghetto when describing white people from trailer parks? Eminem wasn't from a ghetto, because he's Caucasian? If I talk about the ghettos of Bangkok, is it still a racist term?
Haha. Ghetto knows no race, it's a way of life
have you got a better one that captures the same obvious and well known vibe that 'ghetto' does in this context?
I don’t think the meaning of “ghetto rant” is well known or obvious, though it does make me wonder about those who think it is
oh please, you know exactly what is evoked by that. pretending not to is just performative
Sounds like you're scared to say "black." and you should be, "ghetto" isn't "black" or a vibe.
true
no, it's definitely a vibe.
It's not that OP isn't racist. It's that you are. Hope this helps.
Back in my day we called portable stereos "ghetto blasters."
People said a lot of things in the 80’s that they don’t now.
Indeed!
Yeah and you called everyone you didn’t like f*ggot. You proud of that one, too?
Wow there's no need for the hostility. I never used that slur.
That is all he owes you. Why would you be owed more for “potential damages”? That type of recovery is generally for something like a permanent medical condition that will require future treatment, not a fraud case.
Auto dealers are pretty heavily regulated...they can easily find themselves under a huge pile of statutory damages if they're not careful.
You're entirely correct. A lot of posters here are sure making snap judgments without remotely knowing all the facts.
Wait till they try to repo. Moo ha ha ha.
Fair point; from the story, I assumed a private party to private party transaction but you could very well be correct.
If we knew what the "machine" was, and if it was used for work, OP could rightly sue for loss of income from being unable to use what they bought.
We are missing some of the story here, in other words.
A either pay pro se litigants a reasonable fee for the time they put into the case, IE maybe the same rate that public defenders are entitled to.
B a 3x damages for compensation and incentive for honest mediation.
no way. If a person chooses to go pro se without any sense at all, there is no way they deserve compensation. How many "vexatious" litigants AREN'T pro se. I would daresay NONE. Pro se wastes so much court time which covers many, many expenses I can't even begin to detail, and is so ofen used to harass the defendant and/or the judicial system due to the "pretend attorney" status they think they have.
The one genuine pro se case I can recall was when Joe Hunt defended himself in one of his murder trials, and won. Joe Hunt is an outlier for sure in that circumstance and he's still serving life without parole for his other murder. So ultimately, so what he won defending himself pro se lol.
There are many vexatious lawyers. Prenda Law, Many IP lawyers, Handicap lawyers that send in a wheelchair client to many many locations and mass warn lawsuits, many libel cases most normal people would call vexatious.
Buddy, there are literally lawyer sanctions for vexatious litigation that have been applied before. You're sitting here acting like no Lawyer has ever been sanctioned much less disbarred.
They basically offered a refund. Lets consider the other costs with being sold a broken vehicle.
Things like mechanics to try and fix the engine, the insurance, rego. If they need to hire a replacement car or lost wages due to it not working. Suddenly offering what amounts to a refund still leaves the defrauded party out of pocket.
Honestly though… we don’t even know it’s a car. He referred to it as a machine.
Some machine with an engine, but i feel like if it WAS a car the op would have said car or vehicle.
Good point i made an assumption as they said dealership. It is still the same issues though if you bought a digger or cement mixer and it doesnt work you still have all the same costs that are potentially even worse as commercial equipment costs a lot to hire. Further the impact to wages, loss of income is certainly something you need to consider too.
To say ALL they owe is the cost of the vehicle/machine is simply illogical.
Sometimes the tantrum cones from the attorneys on the other side.
"Does this work on other lawyers?"
The short answer is that occasionally it does.
Oh boy. I have bad news for you. This isn't going the way you think it is. You're going to end up getting the exact difference that he offered you and probably nothing more. Sorry to break it to ya.
Don’t be sorry. People need to live in reality, and OP is not.
and thats probably why he doesnt have his own lawyer
We’re gonna make millions off this case! Dude screwed me out of $100.
Sounds like the frauditors who think they will make millions for a cop telling them they can’t film inside a post office after staff have asked them to leave.
Not quite the same. Government officials violating your civil rights should not be dismissed just because you think they’re trivial.
don't defend frauditors. Their civil rights are NEVER violated. They serve to make money off of youtube THAT'S IT. They disrupt business for normal people who aren't out to make a buck by causing disorder and distrubance that they cause everywhere else but don't have a chance to earn bucks off of it.
I, um.. what?
But… but.. what about emotional and punitive damages??? I’m sure OP thinks he deserves those..
And extra damages for being rude during settlement negotiations.
Without knowing your exact claims no one here can say what damages you have. If you are suing under some fraud statute that provides for multiplied damages you may get more than he offered, but be wary- there are specific things you have to prove. I have no idea what they are in your case.
Why do you think you're entitled to more money than you're out of from doing business with this man? From what you've said here about the situation, it didn't seem to affect your life or day to day living so why take more money than is fair and possibly affect the livelihood of the other guy? Should he clean up his practices? Of course but I don't see you getting the bare minimum and that's whats legally fair
It's entirely dependent on the state and proven claims. If OP can prove the defendent intentionally committed fraud they may be awarded damages significantly greater than cost.
Being awarded those damages and collecting on them. If this person is as ghetto as OP claims it’s unlikely he has the money to pay out
If he has a licensed dealership he would likely have a bond OP could go after.
Filing fees and costs associated with litigation? Time off work, potentially, and court fees are not trivial. But yeah, OP ain’t getting a pay day
Why are you suing ? Assuming you get your money back now. If he is now giving you this back. Why not settle ? Why prolong this ? If I understood you sold this piece you bought from him and got money…
Punitive damages ?
Trying to to fuite out who between both of you is trying to scam who.
I have a small business and automatically countersue as standard policy because I go to extraordinary lengths to take care of any problems (and my records/paperwork are immaculate), but do still encounter shitheels trying to get something for nothing at my expense and the countersuit policy discourages trying to play legal shenanigans unless there's actual legitimacy for that.
Got sued by a customer once for not getting parts on time for a warranty repair. None of it my fault, customer was getting work for free, dipstick sued immediately because supply chain issues (supplier was moving a distribution hub that week and this delayed orders) made me wait an extra few days for the warranty replacement of a defective part to come in, and he decided that somehow it was all my fault and filled suit to try to get the whole ticket plus some extra out of me. So I countersue for time/revenue loss for having to fight off a clearly ridiculous suit. (He also tried to instigate a fight with one of my techs and told my GM that he's going to sue and he'll win because he's old and we're not and that court will side with him because of elder abuse.) And no, I am not embellishing any of this in the slightest - this guy is that unhInged.
The day of the pre-trial "cattle call" hearing came. I showed up. So did he. Judge works through the docket asking those present as defendants whether they accept or deny liability on their case's claim(s) and I deny all on my case. Judge says "I see there's a counterclaim here" and asks the customer the same. Customer loses his everloving mind at being countersued and does a brief rant about how he's right and we're wrong. Judge stares at him for a moment and goes "I'll take that as a denial."
Small claims in my state has mandatory mediation as step one. Only took about half an hour to let the guy show the mediator that he's a complete lunatic. Won that handily and with almost no effort. He ended up paying for my time and got fired as a customer.
Tell me you are a racist pile of garbage without saying it...
Except it doesn't have anything to do with race. Ghetto is a culture unto itself. The assumption that Ghetto Culture is an explicitly Nlack, Hispanic, Eastern European, or Asian, thing is what's racist. Ghetto Culture knows no race. Different internal cultures to Ghetto Culture do exist that are typically racially segregated, but describing something as Ghetto is not racial by itself.
If I describe a vehicle as being Ghetto, it conjures a very specific image. Usually a vehicle that is in poor condition with needless and pointless cosmetic upgrades that make it look silly to an outsider. Such upgrades can include, but are not limited to: Oversized free spinning rims, a , "low rider," modification, an ostentatious airbrushed paint job, a, "jumper," modification, an oversized stereo with heavy bass and not much else, unnecessary spoiler modifications, and glass pack mufflers. Each of those modifications is associated with a different racial subgroup, but all are frequently classified as, "Ghetto," modifications.
If I describe a clothing style as Ghetto, the same thing applies. Such styles include but are not limited to, designer tracksuits, Jordan Sneakers, White Sneakers, Timberland Workboots, low slung pants, heavy gold chains, over sized jewelry, Juicy Branded Leisure wear, wife beater style shirts as outerwear, colored bandanas, "do rags," flat trimmed baseball caps. Each of those is commonly associated with different racial subgroups that range from Eastern European to African American. Each is also commonly described as, "Ghetto."
Now, an important part that hasn't been mentioned thus far: Each of those styles and modifications and the like are also associated with criminal groups or illicitly grained wealth. Low slung pants for example originated in Prisons as a signal that the wearer had been claimed by another inmate and was, effectively, "someone's bitch." The low rider modifications originated as a means to smuggle illicit goods, or give the appearance of doing so, depending on what source you look at. Glass Pack mufflers originated on the illegal street racing scene as a means to disguise what was actually powering the vehicle, making a poor or weak engine seem mightier than it was. Same for unnecessary spoilers.
To describe something as Ghetto is to associate it with low income inner city regions and criminal activity. Nothing more. The assumption that saying something is Ghetto means it's racist, is itself a racist statement. Because YOU are the one projecting a racial stereotype onto the person or thing that's being described.
Saying a man acted Ghetto means that he was foul mouthed, unprofessional, combative, and generally rude while likely making illegal threats of violence or comparable behavior and using a dialect of language not associated with the space he was in. There is nothing racial or racist about ANY of that. If the language or threats has been described, we might be able to assume a specific race thanks to stereotypes within the Ghetto communities and subgroups, but no such information was given. And even then, that wouldn't be racist, that would simply be more descriptive information.
Chris Boden is easily described as Ghetto. The man is an electrical engineer who makes YouTube content. He is also more foulmouthed than an entire company of Army Engineers and works to teach people about electricity and electrical theory. He was also in prison for money laundering through BitCoin. He is also quite possibly the whitest man you've ever seen and regularly wears a butplug on his head for jokes.
If you hear Ghetto and assume racism, you're the racist.
When a judge orders a settlement discussion, it means it’s not worth their time in court. Take the settlement, and walk away
Hot news for you, settlement talks are ordered in every case, including cases where one side clearly has the stronger case. You have never tried a case.
"He painted up a machine to look new and put it in an auction with a completely bad engine without disclosing it." .. what do oyu mean? You failed to ask about the production date?
This was an auction, and he did a complete overhaul before selling it "as is"? - sounds reasonable.
The problem seems to be on YOUR side.
The comments here show why this is a dead sub.
The guy bought a lipstick-on-a-pig car at an auction and is mad that it didn't just need new spark plugs to purr like a kitten? And now he is suing for more than his initial investment? You don't say....
“Ghetto tantrum”.