Great project but still baffles me that tunnelling is essentially complete (last few hundred metres should be done in a few months) and it will take 6 years to put in tracks, stations, signalling and test.
6 years?! It's already fully tunnelled, protected from weather and they could work 24/7 on rotating shifts (they already do that with the tunnel borers). I don't see how it takes 6 years to lay 40km of track and signalling and build stations in an empty station box.
I'm loath to bring out the "but iN ChInA they'd dO iT iN HaLf tHe tImE" argument but this really seems like taxpayers are being taken for a massive ride here. The Gamuda, John Holland's etc must view these projects as a licence to print money because the government seems to let them do what they want and take whatever time they want.
Signalling procurement last time I did some (a couple years ago) was in the 1 year+ range. Electrical equipment is in the 12-18 month range. Add in detailed design for 6-12 months.
You are at 2 years before you do much.
I agree 6 years is rather long but gives you a broad window into time frames.
Governments like to pass down risk to contractors including procurement of certain systems and components. If the government buys some system components up front opens them up to risk (primarily integration with other contractor supplied systems, procurement risk like not buying enough components etc etc). There are exceptions of Gov/orgs buying long lead items (such as transformers or synchronous condensers on energy projects) prior to tendering and free issuing them to contractors but for mega projects generally the contractor and their designers make decisions on components etc. above not hard and fast happy to be challenged
Because if they did that the same people saying it's taking too long would have absolutely slammed the 'Incompetent' Procurement function for buying it and wasting millions if the project hadn't proceeded.
They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Strategic works take years, yes long lead items could have been ordered earlier but that requires strategic leadership from politicians and long term commitments from them that can be banked on, have you met them?
The reason China does these things faster isn't ability, it's political will enables it.
Surely the design, review, approval, and procurement could have been going on while the tunnelling was in progress. There's always the chance things have to be changed a bit due to unforeseen circumstances (like the M6 debacle), but the chances of that affecting more than a small portion of the build would be small.
The reason these things take too long, and cost too much, is because we're too risk averse.
Mate of mine worked for Sydney Trains after working on the industry side. He said the best way he could describe it is that the contractors for the government bully them. It's an unapologetic rort because they know the public will make waves if the government org pulled out.
There's always 2 sides to this story. Sydney Trains has held on for so long that they're wary of any outsiders coming in and making changes that NSW government have mandated they need to make to get anything built. Their jobs are so secure though no matter what they do. Of course when NSW government is asked about delays they can't name Sydney Trains, because everyone forgets about the delays once it's open and praises how fantastic the metro line is from Sydenham to the north west. At least this time saying the line won't be complete until 2032 is being realistic.
As someone involved in rail projects i can tell you now its the other way around. Just look at the Mariyung train roll out, all that was delayed years because of drivers/train guards (i actually agree with keeping a guard on the train)
yep, there's so many moving parts that the public aren't aware of, my company is one of several who were awarded this project but we haven't been given any start dates, apart from the fact we're still finishing the Bankstown line
I'm also very much surprised. Like they knew we were going to need tracks and trains and signals. Why wasn't all of this ordered and precured and signed BEFORE the tunnelling started? Like just stage 1-2-3 etc. And we can't say "well what if tunneling was delayed". We would know for months and months how close were are to completion!
I agree, I want it done safely, but I suspect safety standards aren't the main cause of the delay, rather an absolutely bloated joke of a tender and procurement system and greed by builders to drag it out as long as they can.
Great project but still baffles me that tunnelling is essentially complete (last few hundred metres should be done in a few months) and it will take 6 years to put in tracks, stations, signalling and test.
6 years?! It's already fully tunnelled, protected from weather and they could work 24/7 on rotating shifts (they already do that with the tunnel borers). I don't see how it takes 6 years to lay 40km of track and signalling and build stations in an empty station box.
I'm loath to bring out the "but iN ChInA they'd dO iT iN HaLf tHe tImE" argument but this really seems like taxpayers are being taken for a massive ride here. The Gamuda, John Holland's etc must view these projects as a licence to print money because the government seems to let them do what they want and take whatever time they want.
Signalling procurement last time I did some (a couple years ago) was in the 1 year+ range. Electrical equipment is in the 12-18 month range. Add in detailed design for 6-12 months.
You are at 2 years before you do much.
I agree 6 years is rather long but gives you a broad window into time frames.
Why can’t they procure before it is needed?
They were going to, but the whole process got paused for 18 months for the government review in 2023/24.
Governments like to pass down risk to contractors including procurement of certain systems and components. If the government buys some system components up front opens them up to risk (primarily integration with other contractor supplied systems, procurement risk like not buying enough components etc etc). There are exceptions of Gov/orgs buying long lead items (such as transformers or synchronous condensers on energy projects) prior to tendering and free issuing them to contractors but for mega projects generally the contractor and their designers make decisions on components etc. above not hard and fast happy to be challenged
Because if they did that the same people saying it's taking too long would have absolutely slammed the 'Incompetent' Procurement function for buying it and wasting millions if the project hadn't proceeded.
They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Strategic works take years, yes long lead items could have been ordered earlier but that requires strategic leadership from politicians and long term commitments from them that can be banked on, have you met them?
The reason China does these things faster isn't ability, it's political will enables it.
How do they know what to procure???
Detailed design -> reviews -> approved for construction -> procure/build -> test and commission
Surely the design, review, approval, and procurement could have been going on while the tunnelling was in progress. There's always the chance things have to be changed a bit due to unforeseen circumstances (like the M6 debacle), but the chances of that affecting more than a small portion of the build would be small.
The reason these things take too long, and cost too much, is because we're too risk averse.
If it takes 2 years to design and procure a thing, shouldn't you start the 2 year process 2 years before the tunnelling is complete?
It was put on hold according to another comment below.
Otherwise yeah, it’s typically done exactly how you say.
There isn’t signaling on the Metro.Train position control system needs to be installed
Cbtc is a form of train signalling. They also use conventional signalling equipment like points, and points positioning indicators aka a signal.
Also still follow signalling principles.
Source worked on CBTC signalling.
Mate of mine worked for Sydney Trains after working on the industry side. He said the best way he could describe it is that the contractors for the government bully them. It's an unapologetic rort because they know the public will make waves if the government org pulled out.
There's always 2 sides to this story. Sydney Trains has held on for so long that they're wary of any outsiders coming in and making changes that NSW government have mandated they need to make to get anything built. Their jobs are so secure though no matter what they do. Of course when NSW government is asked about delays they can't name Sydney Trains, because everyone forgets about the delays once it's open and praises how fantastic the metro line is from Sydenham to the north west. At least this time saying the line won't be complete until 2032 is being realistic.
As someone involved in rail projects i can tell you now its the other way around. Just look at the Mariyung train roll out, all that was delayed years because of drivers/train guards (i actually agree with keeping a guard on the train)
yep, there's so many moving parts that the public aren't aware of, my company is one of several who were awarded this project but we haven't been given any start dates, apart from the fact we're still finishing the Bankstown line
I'm also very much surprised. Like they knew we were going to need tracks and trains and signals. Why wasn't all of this ordered and precured and signed BEFORE the tunnelling started? Like just stage 1-2-3 etc. And we can't say "well what if tunneling was delayed". We would know for months and months how close were are to completion!
Not forgotten by the 2031 election. Don't want to deliver this stiff 1 year into the cycle.
They have to build all the rooms and stuff as well. Fit it out. There's a lack of skilled workers.
You have to test the signalling and systems like platform screen doors etc.
You have to get the equipment as well. 6 years is pretty short. Also fun fact night shift is terribly bad for humans.
6 years is just in time for the next election . Open the stations just before the election and they win that electorate.
Unfortunately politics are about what have you done for me recently ...
China doesn't have independent unions. Not making a judgement here either way, just pointing out that everything has trade-offs.
I agree, I want it done safely, but I suspect safety standards aren't the main cause of the delay, rather an absolutely bloated joke of a tender and procurement system and greed by builders to drag it out as long as they can.
Or the safety regulations for both worker and for the trains that ensure people don’t die.
Thank god for unions.
Also they won't fucking tunnel down to Macarthur/Campbelltown. God knows the greenfield developments down the northern road need it.
It’s a shame how slow and inefficient Australiaare. I see China who could have everything up within months.
I’d understand if it took 2-3yrs. But 6yrs and likely be delayed, be more like 8yrs in the end is unacceptable
Starting to think Silverwater/Newington will never ever get a light rail or metro 😔
Remember when they were test drilling in silverwater 10 or 15 years ago?
Fairly sure I still have the letter I got in the mail informing me about it
Pretty sure you are correct.
I wonder how they will fuck this up and give $999,999,999 dollars to John Barilaro again