I had a 18 Crosstrek, it was great for snowy roads and light trails. That’s it, i got stuck plenty of times. It’s not the awd, it’s the lack of power the engine had. I had all terrains tires too, which weighed the power down even more.
Traded in for a Tacoma. Subaru still has a place in my heart, had so many fun trips in that little thing.
I have a 18 too but in manual transmission
It’s definitely day and night difference to an cvt trans, helps so much and you control the power & is way more predictable than compared to my friends auto👌🏻
That being said I like to move into a auto iForce Taco aswell, to tow my S13 to the track 😆😃
2006 Outback 3.0, the one with the 50/50 AWD. Can't even count how many times I told myself "fuck fuck fuck, guess it's time to go search for a tractor", yet I never had to actually go search for one. Somehow it handled even the diagonals. Yeah, I had to crawl where Land Cruisers could just, ehhh, cruise, but nevertheless I am very impressed with what that car could do. No other Subaru is the same, except for the previous generation, Lancaster, maybe.
I had a 2012 Subaru Legacy that was similar. non-cvt, 3.6L, 45/55 AWD (only AWD transfer was +5 only sent to the front, nothing additional sent to the rear). Ground clearance was a different issue though, But an outback and Tribeca had the same engine & AWD setup
Just realized my post gained a lot of replies. Yes it was a CVT. It was my first awd car so it unlocked a lot of places I haven’t been before.
The CVT started getting a chain rattle sound around 50k miles, probably from the off roading I did with it so that’s when I ended up trading in for a Tacoma.
If cvt i would not doubt it. Without a locker or a center clutch lockout mod a diagonal traction situation like that where you are going slow is not great for them.
Cvt hates slow high torque climbs. The lowest gear ratios without wilderness final drive ratios is bad. Pair that with open diffs, not even xmode can get out of a lot of stuff.
Im not hating, just know, I've been out doing stuff with my 15 fxt for a while. It now no longer has sway bars, has a 2" lift, skids, new struts, and a rear locker.
Honestly, just from the experience of going up and down my steep driveway in a '16 Convenience and a '24 Wilderness, the difference from the adjusted final drive ratio is noticeable even on a paved surface. It's not hard for me to fathom how the standard gearing would struggle on inclines in loose terrain.
My parents have the touring and we have the wilderness, and they've got a steep twisting driveway. The OBW will idle crawl up the thing once you've cleared the curb. The touring XT you've got to give it a pretty good throttle then alarm the brakes before touching the garage door or car port.
I didn't think it was that big of a difference until I moved both cars back to back a few months ago... They're completely different
Yea for sure! There's a big difference between a Crosstrek and an Outback Wilderness going off-road though. My Crosstrek I had was nowhere near as capable as my OBW in pretty much all situations.
VDC in an 09 forester got us through a lot of diagonal situations without any issues, all the car had was a lift and bigger tyres, but being a manual with low range probably helped it a little bit too.
Wish I could've kept that car honestly, it was quite capable for what it was.
Yup. My '16 crosstrek touring hates slow traffic in the mountains. I mean it hates it. I hate it too. Cvt feels like it wants to jump to higher speeds.
CVTs are fueled by hate. As you go up the hill remind the CVT that it is a peice of shit and slap the dash a few times. Might pick up a few RPMs going up the grades and settle it down in the traffic.
high jacking this comment. Anyone have any good 4x4 trail recommendations in national parks where the destination is the purpose of the off road drive. I don't want to off road for the sake of off roading.
Ya the crosstrek is capable but absolutely has limitations. If the cvt struggles it’ll just not let you move so you don’t burn it out.
I’ve truly off roaded only once so far and it was a blast. But I was in the lowest gear ratio basically the entire time. Would be nice to have a low range for some situations.
TFL is hilarious with this. Subaru took a car away from them, more than a decade ago, and they have made it their life mission to make Subaru look bad ever since. Somehow, every time they get their hands on one, they just come to a gentle stop on a hill and insist it can't continue.
Meanwhile you can watch any other reviewer (I'm thinking of Driving Sports TV specifically) just absolutely crush the same kind of obstacles.
The problem is that they don't truly understand what they're doing. They recently "brought back" the 2015 Outback to retry an obstacle and didn't even turn off TCS, which is required in those models because Subaru didn't program it to turn off automatically with x-mode.
Never heard of them, subscribed and definitely going to watch the series…. Poor svx but very impressive from the 10 minutes I watched, definitely hurts me to see a svx done like that.
Hi! I am completely clueless about this sort of thing other than a rudimentary understanding that 4WD means all four tires are turning at roughly the same rate and power simultaneously (I think, anyway).
Why is the AWD thing an issue here? Not trying to start nonsense but hoping to gather some type of knowledge that will make me less likely to do something boneheaded with my new Crosstrek.
All wheel drive has the ability to provide power to all 4 wheels, like 4x4 or 4wd (same thing).Unfortunately the wheel that slips is the wheel that turns or provides power. The difference with a fwd is then have one wheel providing power. All wheel drive can have two, one front and one rear. Traction control, typically handled by abs, helps move power to the a wheel with grip. Limited slip differential accomplish this similarly. Often, modern all wheel drive have traction control and limited slip differentials.
4wd is different. It can have all 4 wheels to turn or provide power. On ice or if you are parking on a slippery surface, Awd is way better as you need the slip for the different turning radius of the inner and outer tires.
4wd shines in more extreme situations, less so on road. It is common for 4wd trucks to have lower gear ratios for super slow speeds off road. This happens outside the transmission with the addition of a transfer case. Off road trucks can will have lockers on the rear differential or possibly on the front as well. Lockers make the wheels turn no matter what happens. It is for straight line driving or full wheel slip situations. You turn it on momentarily to overcome an obstacle.
Subarus don’t use a transfer case. Instead, it has a centre differential instead of a transfer case (three diffs total)
The centre differential is where a sti can control the power applied between the front or rear axle or its bias. That’s what Subaru calls DCCD control.
I have a sti with dccd. Great( or good enough) for the track to balance rotation of the car. Awesome for gravel roads, snow or ice. Rwd still rules the track though.
I have a 4wd zr2 Colorado with lockers front and rear. It handles rocky climbs and mud like a tank.
I tried to reread this but I’m at an airport lounge and going deep on the open bar. Forgive the rambling.
4wd just locks the front and rear driveshaft together. It can still be two wheel drive as well (one wheel on each axle) if it’s open diffs. It works the same way as awd where it uses traction control to push power around to the other wheels. As you already mentioned lockers are a second layer to that to achieve true four wheel drive assuming you have both a front and rear locker.
Also as you stated that low range is good for slow crawling, but it also greatly increases torque to the wheels.
4x4 is typically far more robust than awd. Awd systems usually have computer nannies that will cut power to prevent damage to drivetrains. On the other hand for example my rubicon in low range and diffs locked will either spin tires if I don’t have enough traction, or will propel me forward if I do. Either way it will give me every bit of power it has lol, for better or for worse
this . subarus have good ground clearance and even more than some stock 4x4 vehicles and also all four wheels are driving so of course people will think these trails could apply to them. especially with a “wilderness” edition. but the way i see it with my outback vs my truck is my subaru propels itself with all wheel drive for traction on a road or gravel road. it was never meant for low end crawling and technical two track. especially bc a lot of parts are exposed and unprotected on the belly of the vehicle as well as the suspension/bushings etc and drives to the wheels AND the transmission just not being for 4x4. i’ve replaced many many parts over my 230k miles on my outback doing exactly that lol. my truck is way more protected and solid for this stuff and has the settings like 4 low and beefed up and protected parts to prevent my vehicle from having to get rescued out on a one lane road in the middle of canyon lands national park on the white rim. many cars go through there so if one person gets stuck it ruins everyone else’s time. not to mention the people coming from over seas who don’t have knowledge or experience and get a subaru rental car or something and send it and get stuck lol. so the NPS doing their NPS thing and trying to apply a blanket safety measure to protect the most amount of people possible.
i know that kitted out custom lifted crosstrek with mudding tires and a widdle wadder is actually more capable than a stock 4x4 ford ranger. and that’s where the blanket rule change doesn’t work but as any governing body, they are trying to implement the best rules they can with the lack of resources given to protect the most amount of people.
If you have a subie with the 4eat you can add in your own center diff lock switch by cutting into the trans wiring harness and get a powertrax for the rear diff and it's pretty much 4x4 at that point lol it's an easy af upgrade if you wanna drive a wagon places it should never go
So, you know how some people have weird love and excessively deep knowledge for a random thing? Mine is AWD systems and 4WD systems. I have done a horrifying amount of research on this, so strap in. First post is background, 2nd is an explanation.
A 2wd vehicle sends power to either the front or the rear wheels, When you accelerate it is beneficial to have power sent to both wheels for better traction obviously. The problem is that when you turn, the outside wheel has to spin faster than the inside wheel. So, how do you get power to go to both tires sometimes, and one tire other times? The answer is a differential. If you go to youtube and type "around the corner differential" and click on the black and white video you'll understand differentials forever. The gist is that the engine supplies the SAME power to both tires, but when you go around a corner, the inside tire can "free spin" while the outside wheel provides power. That's great for cornering, but say the drivers side front wheel is on pavement, and the passengers side is on ice. The engine will provide power until the tire on ice spins, but it can only apply the SAME amount of power to the tire that is on the pavement, which isn't enough to move the car, so you just sit there spinning the passenger wheel. Say it takes 100 ft/lbs of torque to actually move the car, but the tire on ice can only apply 5ft/lbs. That means that the drivers side tire is only getting 5 ft/lbs as well, for a grand total of 10.
AWD and 4WD are not "protected terms" like tow ratings are. It is generally kind of accepted that 4WD applies to a part time system. You flip a switch and go from 2wd to 4wd. It's also generally kind of accepted that AWD refers to solutions that you can leave on all the time. Some brands say 4WD because it sounds more rugged.
4WD-The vehicle is normally 2WD. When you need more traction, you flip a switch or pull a lever, and Mechanically lock the front and rear axles together. If you get one front and rear tire on a sheet of ice, you still aren't going to be able to move. All 4 will simply produce 20 ft/lbs instead of 10 with 2 wheels. The benefit is that if you only have 1 axle with no traction, the other axle can easily push you along.
However, the front tires have to travel a longer distance than the rear tires around corners. The front tires go around the corner, and the rear tires take a slightly shorter, more direct path. This leads to the same problems that the 2wd car has when it comes to left vs right, just front vs rear now. If you turn with the 4WD active, then the rear tires will "hop" and "chirp" (sometimes called crow hopping) as they are forced to turn at a different speed. If you have a LOT of traction on very dry pavement and turn sharply, then you will break something in the drivetrain. (Or the difference builds up slowly during lots of little turns, until something expensive explodes in the middle).
AWD - AWD looks to solve this issue by putting a differential between the front and rear tires, just like the one between the left and right tires. That lets you drive around in AWD all the time, because the front and rear tires can spin at different speeds when they need to, but all provide traction when you need it. However, this leads to a decrease in gas mileage and tire wear. To combat this, there have been a million different solutions to this problem. A very common one is to provide power to the front tires all the time but disconnect the rear wheels via a clutch pack. This is light weight and lets you navigate corners easily. When a difference in wheel speed between the front and rear is detected and passes a certain threshold, the car's computer will start applying pressure to the clutch pack, progressively locking it and sending more and more power to the rear wheels. It'll do this until the wheel speed difference stops, or the clutch overheats.
The problem with this is that the front and rear wheels are never truly locked together. The clutch pack has to be working the whole time there is slip, and it gets hot. They also (usually) can't literally send 100% of power to the rear. In a steep uphill climb where the front tires have virtually no grip, you can easily overcome the locking power of the clutch. In a 4WD, once it's locked, it's locked. There's no clutch pack to get hot or overwhelmed.
All AWD systems are a balance of robustness, weight, price, etc.. A lot of manufacturers focus on simplicity and lightness, so their systems are more like FWD with some rear assist ability tacked on. Subaru has made the AWD part of their brand identity, and so it is very robust and well done.
Idk how Subaru does it but typically awd means only two wheels are getting power until the computer detects a loss in traction (typically wheel speed on one wheel) and when that happens it sends power to the typically non powered wheels.
This is different than what's in my land cruiser which is confused with all wheel drive but its really full time 4wd meaning power is going to all 4 wheels all the time.
Awd - <typically> means 2wd until loss of traction
Part time 4wd - 2wd until transfer case is engaged for 4wd
Full time 4wd - all 4 wheels get power all the time.
Hope this helps! Lmk if I can help clarify anything!
Subaru is full time AWD, front and rear axles are constantly receiving power and torque split is varied based on conditions. The only time a Subaru is not delivering torque to all four wheels is if one has zero grip/is in the air due to open diffs(ignoring the many Subaru models that came with limited slip diffs from the factory)
I think the "symmetrical AWD" moniker comes from the half shafts being of equal length, so the idea is that the power flows to the left and the right an equal distance to prevent torque steer and various other shenanigans.
The manual transmission is symmetrical front and rear as far as I know, but I don't think the CVT actually can be, since the rear axle is attached via clutch pack. I've definitely heard that 100% can go to the rear but I don't see how its possible to go farther than 50/50. Heck, the STI had to do all kinds of wizardry to get a rear biased torque split, so I don't see them getting there with my outback.
This is not really accurate at all, at least how you've worded it specifically. AWD just simply means all wheels have the ability to be powered, nothing more, nothing less. Some systems only power 2 wheels at a time, think haldex type setups, some are all the time AWD, like a Subaru. Most AWD vehicles have open differentials which without the help of any brake torque vectoring just means the power will take the path of least resistance and it has the potential to only be powering 2 wheels at once in the worst of conditions, though there are many AWD setups with limited slip differential setups which eliminate that problem.
So what makes it different from a 4WD system? 4WD just typically means all wheels have the ability to be powered, like awd, but it has fully lockable differentials and has low range.
What makes your example not make sense is that in an on-road setting your land cruiser and the other persons Subaru are essentially functioning exactly the same, sending power to pretty much the same places at the same time and if you both hit a patch of ice your vehicles are going to respond about the same, however in your LC you have the ability to lock your differentials and enter low range and have a much easier time getting out of trouble in low traction environments whereas the Subaru will most likely have to solely rely on brake torque vectoring to send power to what has the most traction.
I appreciate the clarification. All the awd vehicles I have experience with have been 2wd until 4wd is needed. Interesting to read that subarus system is more of a full time 4wd system.
Not all 4x4s have lockable diffs. I’d even argue most on the road don’t have any lockable diffs at all. Some models have diff locks in their higher trims but it’s often only a rear locker (like Toyota, they only offer a rear locker, no front locker for any of their vehicles sold in the US at least). It seems like more vehicles are offering both front and rear lockers nowadays though, but it’s still a slim number of 4x4s.
Those 4x4s that don’t have any lockable diffs have to rely on brake vectoring also
The reason why this is debated is due to a lack of agreed upon terms on a global scale. The terminology has evolved over the past 30 years.
Take a look at existing advertisements for Subaru in Japan. Many of them say '4WD' and the same car will be marketed as 'AWD' in North America. For example, Impreza WRX STi has advertisements showing 'full-time 4WD' and 'AWD'.
Subaru competes in 4WD class. Japanese engineers I've interviewed who built cars like the Impreza and Lancer use the term 4WD. So, both AWD and 4WD are acceptable.
Within 4WD there are categories such as part-time, full-time and torque-split. This is how it was taught to me by a Mitsubishi engineer who worked on the Lancer Evolution 4WD system.
If you'd like to see some documents explaining this in more detail, let me know.
I honestly dont blame these areas for this. There are too many uninformed and inexperienced drivers out there thinking their subarus can go everywhere and cause issue with trail health, use resources when stuck, etc.
Subarus are very capable, but we have collectively overblown their capabilities to the average driver. I've seen stock foresters do really cool stuff, but that driver knew the limits of the vehicle, how to manage the open diffs, knew the crawl ratio was bad and sacrificed suspension and risk of damage for momentum.
Heck, cvts overheat so easily that it is a common mod to install a transmission cooler. I doubt the average driver will install one. I bet my 15 fxt with a lift, good ATs, no sway bars, skid plates, a rear diff locker and breather, etc would idle past the obstacle shown in the picture... but a capable vehicle makes everything look easy right up until it isnt, then its just hard. Take the mods away and you end up hitting that hard line a lot faster.
I had a lady in the sierras insist to me that her Crosstrek was as capable as my 4Runner and no explaining about offroad tires, low range gears, or locking diffs could convince her- she saw some really great commercials that told her so.
Delusions are fixed, false beliefs that tend to be a predominant factor in a person’s life. They shape their daily actions by their delusion (e.g. avoiding the use of a cellphone/internet and refusing to leave their home for any reason due to their belief of being monitored/threatened) and they can be debilitating.
They exist on a spectrum and some people can manage fine. There is a difference between a delusion and just thinking you know better even when presented with evidence (heck, you can call that a narcissistic trait rather than a delusion).
Yup. I will say, I've made it through some interesting things before. But I was willing to toss my $26k car way more than the more expensive rides haha. Anyone who tries to follow a true 4x4 up a trail quickly realizes the difference.
Its not to say subies can hang, they just need... extra effort.
I just got my first subaru, a Crosstrek hybrid, and I thought the AWD was 4x4 or even better.
My last car was a 97 Jeep TJ, and although I haven't hit the logging roads with the Subaru yet, it feels just as capable on logging roads. Maybe the terrain in this article is more than the regular logging road
Subies kick much ass on gravel/snow low incline terrain (lineage going back to WRC etc) but when the going gets bouldery and steep, there’s a sharp cutoff where you just have to have low range and center lock.
Subaru AWD is the best AWD system I've ever used, but it's not 4x4. A true 4x4 road, in remote places with limited maintenance, service, and evacuation options is not a place for a stock Subaru. It's dangerous for the driver, increases erosion on the road due to wheel spin, and will put a burden on first responders if there is an emergency.
Logging roads typically see more traffic and more maintenance than a Backcountry 4x4 road. The washout shown in this thumbnail is a great example of what looks like a small feature that can completely maroon an AWD vehicle with open diffs. Diagonal rut, bottom of a washout, no way to move forward or backward without power. Xmode might get you out by using the ABS to more aggressively brake one of the free spinning wheels, but it might not. The computer decides. That's where you need recovery gear (shovel, traction boards, winch, tow ropes+support vehicle), which most people don't carry on their family road trip in their Crosstrek.
Every AWD vehicle I know of is also a unibody car, SUV, or crossover. This design inherently puts more fragile mechanical components lower to the ground than a body-on-frame 4x4. Bent trailing arms, broken end links, damages brake hoses, or punctured CVT/Oil pans...I can't count the number of jeep trails I've been on where one particularly tall rock in the middle of the double track is surrounded by a large dark patch...from puncturing someone's oil pan. Not saying every 4x4 has better clearance than a Crosstrek, but IMO a Crosstrek needs skid plates and off-road tires minimum to attempt a 4x4 rated road.
It’s not a Subaru issue, it’s an issue with people who shouldn’t be there. If someone has an f150 with 4x4, and they can’t drive well, it’s going to get stuck. If the right guy has a front wheel drive Camry, it’s plausible it climbs better than the f150. If banning AWD on these trails gets these drivers off the road, great.
I don’t want these trails to start requiring special licenses, so this is a good step.
Technique and gear complement each other, but on probably 95% of off road trails, the right driver can make do with just about any car. And the wrong driver can fail with the best equipment.
My dad drove his '71 Pinto around 2 stuck 4x4s on the way to a hunting cabin. He gave it to me as my first car and I once had a lifted 4x4 chase me down to ask me how I drove it, because he couldn't believe I drove through a challenging section. It would be impossible to turn around, and he saw me drive out. He actually asked me if I backed in for a quarter mile and gave up.
I’ve been a lifelong driver of Subarus, 2010 Outback, 2020 Crosstrek, 2023 forester.
I now find myself in need of getting far out on forest service and logging roads in the Klamath and Shasta national forests in rural Nor Cal
I almost got stuck beyond the reach of an offroad wrecker in my 2023 forester. After 6 months of deliberating I bit the bullet and traded in for a 4Runner. A geared transmission 4x4 with 4 Lo is just mechanically a totally different beast than a CVT AWD.
In about a year and a half i think I will be back in budget for a 4runner trailhunter. I cant wait. Im keeping my 15 fxt too. I hope my kids can drive my fxt so when they are ready and licensed they will have a vehicle to send out on the trails with me.
A 4runner would make everything so much easier, but my fxt is no slouch either, that rear locker made all the difference. Out of the lift, skids, removing sway bars, et , the biggest impact on the capability was tires and locker.
I had a 06 wrx before I got my fxt in 2016 used (2015 fxt). I've maintained and modded it ever since then into what it is now. Im genuinely surprised it has survived. It is on its 2nd cvt, but I have a cooler on that now
If you ever want to get back in a subie for fun, get a SH forester or fxt and slap a rear locker in it, and some ATs. Lift it 2" and at minimum grab a front skid plate (I recommend a rear diff plate too) for the price, you will have a ton of fun. Swap in exhaust from a wrx and enjoy the exhaust sounds too haha.
Eh, there’s always that kind of stuff. I’d rather there be a licensing type system whereby you can somehow indicate you have sufficient trail experience to attempt a true 4x4 trail. Too many guys buy a stock rubicon and think they can take on any trail with zero experience
All of them if you’re in reverse…. Sorry I thought the sarcasm was obvious considering the sub 6-inch ground clearance on them makes the drivetrain specs pretty immaterial in comparison.
FYI all the wilderness models and the stock crosstrek meet the NPS definition of “high clearance.” But that’s irrelevant on a 4WD only road. Ultimately it comes down to not getting stuck. If they’re not pulling you out they’re never going to know or care.
Which means knowing not only the limits of your vehicle but far more importantly the limits of the driver. On the vast majority of roads the benefit of a jeep or 4Runner is just that you don’t need to know what you’re doing.
All points to convince anyone an sti could be 4wd are not really gping to matter, these park service will usually not care and they will go by original spec unless they had some really good morning coffee haha.
Locking center is not really where most draw the line, it is transfer case for low range too. In this case the sti would need the locking center diff (like other full time 4wd cars) but also a low range transfer case. Otherwise id just call it a locking center awd, just more capable awd.
IFFFF you somehow put an ausie 5spd low range trans in and locked the center... id call that 4wd.
I'm completely joking but that's the thing... if you did roll up in an STi versus say, a Crosstrek Wilderness, and if the STi technically met their definition of a 4wd vs awd, would they let the STi go and stop the Crosstrek (which whould be really fucking stupid if they did)? Hell, I'm guessing there are some 2wd dune buggy type cars that would do a lot better up there than most 4wds.
This just shows where we are as a society when some guy with a Crosstrek is out there making it happen on the trails meanwhile all the shiny 4x4 trucks cruise around the suburbs without a spec of dirt on them
Got into a 24 wilderness Crosstrek out of an 11 firester and man I'm not sure I agree with a lot of folks in here. Put a 2" lift and some big tires on that thing and it ate up some 4x4 in Moab and Vegas, haven't done much craziness in the Crosstrek but what little I have done it doesn't seem to hold up quite the same - maybe I just knew the Forester better? Either way I miss that old girl.
If stuck like this, just use left-foot locker to stop the wheel in the air from spinning.
Edit to add: As both a 2020 Forester owner and lifted and built Grand Cherokee that unless the Park Service is paying the tow bills, they shouldn’t ban AWD. Just let folks know that a tow bill will be close to a thousand dollars if they can’t self extract.
I’m an idiot with a stock wrangler rubicon and I’ve done some pretty challenging shit I’d be surprised if a stock or even slightly modified Subaru could do
Mate a wrangler Rubicon is one of the most capable stock vehicles there is.
I've seen Subarus at almost every 4WD only campsite along the east coast and they get in easily. I'm not suggesting they tackle tough stuff.
Google gave me some bad directions last summer that put me on a “road” that was all rocks that I tried to drive down with my Crosstrek. I ended up having to turn around near the end because the exit would have taken the bumper off.
I was impressed with what it was able to do but I did t want to test the limits and get stuck several miles up a trail with no cell service.
No idea why Google recommend that road but it was sketchy in the backroads of NH.
I pulled a small pop up camper down a 4x4 trail in Colorado back in the day with my Impreza hatchback. Had to stack rocks once or twice but crazy what you can get away with if you put your tires in the right spots
It's not a bad plan, just make sure there's appropriate signage. People get quite confused between awd and 4x4 and the earlier dual range Subarus did muddy the waters a bit.
Here in Aus we have "high clearance 4wd" restriction/advisory for most tracks. You still end up with a few x trails and foresters needed recovery, but generally it's pretty good for helping people make sensible choices. The hire carollas on the beach however, that's happens whatever you do.
I gave my Forester to my sister due to these rule changes. But I drove that car on some trails where its now banned that weren't a problem at all. Didn't need my traction boards, barely aired down at all and didn't have to try any obstacles more than once.
*I have an 07' Grand Vitara now that's AWD but also has 4WD Low. Its definitely far better off road, but its more that I can pick bad lines on purpose now.
I took my Crosstrek Sport on stock tires through an OHV park once. Got stuck once in water up to the door sill. I definitely had to drive more aggressively than my friends in Wranglers. I wouldn’t press my luck though and try it again.
I accidentally went down a jeep trail once in my brand new Outback. Couldn't turn around and was committed to 10 miles or so. Had a great time and even got a couple of lovely ladies in a "real' 4wd unstuck! Wouldn't do it again though.
3 years ago I went to scout a trout lake (because maps were adequate on the terrain surrounding the lake), which was 16 KMs in from Civilization. 8+ KMs of that was in a washboard, pothole-y, fist-sized rock-infested logging road and my absolutely stock OBW (save for tires, have Falken Wildpeak AT-Trails) handles it like an absolute champ. I thought for sure that I'd break something, but the car came out identical to how it came in, save for being much dirtier.
I don't know how it'd do in mud, but I'm sure it would manage
I drove a Forester up a mountain trail very easily. Had it balancing on two wheels at some points. Traction control did its thing - never stopped advancing an inch. Don't know about the crosstrek tho.
I understand who ever is driving a Subaru is probably inexperienced but this is sorts bull shit. Ive been taking my Subaru everywhere with my taco friends! Never got stuck.
This particular driver also didn't get stuck, they were cited after based on a YouTube video. It's just gate keeping based on outdated technical jargon. Modern AWD systems with wheel slip based traction control systems are pretty close to 4wd with the exception of low range gearing. They're plenty capable
This was my thought as well. This is outdated nonsense. If I take a 1996 Cherokee with open diffs and street tires on this trail I’m fine but an Outback wilderness is somehow not permitted? Modern AWD systems with off road modes are honestly just as capable as 4wd unless you’re in the really tough stuff. Also, 4wd vehicles with no lockers are going to be worse than modern AWD vehicles in nearly every situation except maybe ground clearance/tire size.
Subaru Xmode approximates locking/limited slip differentials, it has no ability to change gear ratios like a low range gear. That is what the name X Mode means, it's independently vectoring torque to individual wheels via the brake calipers, the 4 wheels being an X.
The biggest off-road advantage the Outback Wilderness has over the other Outbacks is a lower final gear ratio, this was required because X Mode cannot approximate low range gearing any more than just manually putting the car in 1st approximates low range gearing
Seen the people managing PA forests joke about this. Claim their "unbiased" experience is the vast majority of cars needing rescue are Subarus. I doubt there is no bias.
When I went overlanding on cape cod the government has a bunch of very specific and not necessarily logical requirements and I bet this is a similar situation.
I feel like tickets should only be issued if the car gets stuck. A big part of offroading is driver skill. I've seen AWD cars get places that a lot of 4wd owners wouldn't be able to get to, purely because of the drivers of said AWD cars just know how to wheel.
A Subaru can handle anything a 4x4 can, except in areas where high clearance is needed. Even then, Subarus can usually achieve better results than most other AWD vehicles. Fact!
Was out in a popular dispersed camping area that was relatively easy to get to, but from there was this one very steep rutted out road. I had taken our Montero up to check out what was there and ended up camping there. Coming back down the hill I encountered a jeep and truck heading up with no room for me to pull off. I backed it up this hill until they could pass me, granted I had not yet hit the rutted out section. Later the next day someone in an Impreza is looking for a spot to camp and starts pulling up this road. Someone else in our group (whose car was not able to get up this hill) told her that she wouldn't be able to make it. She cautiously drove up to the bad section, saw close up that the ruts were nearly as deep as her tires were tall, and just backed out to head somewhere else.
I used to have a completely stock Forester and I probably would have attempted it but who knows how successful it would have been. The Montero just walked up it with only 2 wheels on the ground at times and never stuttered. Didn't even need 4hi or low, just AWD. Realizing now that I've typed out my story that this is the Subaru sub...
I did rimrocker trail with my outback wilderness after the trail had two massive washouts that required some rebuilding and pretty technical driving. Ripped my skid plate half off but she made it!
Not to say Rimrocker is an insane off-road trail, but I think a capable AWD can do most trails if you have some options for lines. Obviously not going to be rock crawling in it.
A few years back i went to a resort type thing on top of a mountain in Panama. My wife set it up. We drove like 8 hours to go close to there then once we sort of close there were no more paved roads and all kinds of signs saying you needed a 4x4 to get there. I called the resort and they said yes for sure It's a very steep climb and it was raining at the time. We were in her 2018 Corolla. I said fuck it and we went up. Slowly. But we made it. I will never forget peoples faces looking at me pulling into the parking lot. Was a bunch of raised Helix and our Corolla. Never doing that again though.
The park rangers are actually really smart about this;
All you have to do is ask them.
I drove my Subaru Outback down Shafer Trail/Potash Road at Canyonlands NP...
It's rated for 4WD cars ... The Ranger told me it would be "risky but not reckless" if I took my Outback down it, and for me, that was enough of a Green Light.
I busted my fog lamp assembly but otherwise made it through unscathed.
I wonder how that rule would apply to an EV like the Rivian? The quad motor would be considered 4x4 and the dual motor AWD, unless I am misunderstanding. Super high torque at low speeds and superior traction control system compared to standard ICE setups.
As the owner of an AWD Subaru and an old Jeep , there's no replacement for a true 4x4 system. I've never met a computerized AWD system that beats a true transfer case driven 4-wheel drive system with most importantly, a low range, and at least a limited slip rear-differential (and a non-CVT transmission or manual). Love my Subaru but it doesn't compete with a Wrangler or a 4Runner off-road, or even my old POS Jeep Liberty off-road.
If you have the right features/mods, AWD can be adjusted to operate exactly like 4WD. Not applicable to all cars, but the options and capabilities are there.
What I want to know is if it actually got stuck or not.
This is an old article, but I believe he got out with no issues and was cited by mail.
Super old lol I remember seeing a similar one quite a few years ago
Totally asinine then
I had a 18 Crosstrek, it was great for snowy roads and light trails. That’s it, i got stuck plenty of times. It’s not the awd, it’s the lack of power the engine had. I had all terrains tires too, which weighed the power down even more. Traded in for a Tacoma. Subaru still has a place in my heart, had so many fun trips in that little thing.
I have a 18 too but in manual transmission It’s definitely day and night difference to an cvt trans, helps so much and you control the power & is way more predictable than compared to my friends auto👌🏻
That being said I like to move into a auto iForce Taco aswell, to tow my S13 to the track 😆😃
Had an 04 Forester XT with gobs of power and a real LSD. That thing was way more capable than most unlifted pickups. 4.44 Gears too.
My non-Subaru is a 3rd gen Taco. I love it. An iForce would be great but you can't get the 6' bed with a stick anymore.
That said, I'd probably get something bigger if towing was my primary use. A full size truck makes a huge difference in highway speed stability.
2006 Outback 3.0, the one with the 50/50 AWD. Can't even count how many times I told myself "fuck fuck fuck, guess it's time to go search for a tractor", yet I never had to actually go search for one. Somehow it handled even the diagonals. Yeah, I had to crawl where Land Cruisers could just, ehhh, cruise, but nevertheless I am very impressed with what that car could do. No other Subaru is the same, except for the previous generation, Lancaster, maybe.
I had a 2012 Subaru Legacy that was similar. non-cvt, 3.6L, 45/55 AWD (only AWD transfer was +5 only sent to the front, nothing additional sent to the rear). Ground clearance was a different issue though, But an outback and Tribeca had the same engine & AWD setup
Just realized my post gained a lot of replies. Yes it was a CVT. It was my first awd car so it unlocked a lot of places I haven’t been before. The CVT started getting a chain rattle sound around 50k miles, probably from the off roading I did with it so that’s when I ended up trading in for a Tacoma.
How would more power help? That would just make you slip more
If cvt i would not doubt it. Without a locker or a center clutch lockout mod a diagonal traction situation like that where you are going slow is not great for them.
Cvt hates slow high torque climbs. The lowest gear ratios without wilderness final drive ratios is bad. Pair that with open diffs, not even xmode can get out of a lot of stuff.
Im not hating, just know, I've been out doing stuff with my 15 fxt for a while. It now no longer has sway bars, has a 2" lift, skids, new struts, and a rear locker.
Honestly, just from the experience of going up and down my steep driveway in a '16 Convenience and a '24 Wilderness, the difference from the adjusted final drive ratio is noticeable even on a paved surface. It's not hard for me to fathom how the standard gearing would struggle on inclines in loose terrain.
My parents have the touring and we have the wilderness, and they've got a steep twisting driveway. The OBW will idle crawl up the thing once you've cleared the curb. The touring XT you've got to give it a pretty good throttle then alarm the brakes before touching the garage door or car port.
I didn't think it was that big of a difference until I moved both cars back to back a few months ago... They're completely different
What's actually making the difference between those two vehicles, I wonder?
It's the final drive ratio
IIRC between those year models the CVT also gained a lower low ratio and a higher high ratio
Now that you mention it that might have even more of an impact in my anecdote.
On the other hand I notice it mostly in reverse which I think is a fixed ratio? So that'd be back down to final drive, I think.
Reverse is fixed ratio but not the same as the lowest forward ratio, and also may not be the same between them.
Side note: that straight cut reverse gear sounds pretty cool when you go fast in reverse.
Yea for sure! There's a big difference between a Crosstrek and an Outback Wilderness going off-road though. My Crosstrek I had was nowhere near as capable as my OBW in pretty much all situations.
You're also glossing over the critical difference of about 80hp and 100ftlb of torque between the two.
Edit: wrong wilderness, I was thinking OB while there were talking Forester
Uh... there is not an 80hp difference between the '16 Convenience and the '24 Wilderness.
The 2016 is an FB25B (170HP, 174 lb.ft.)
The 2024 is an FB25D (182HP, 178 lb.ft.)
There is a difference but it's only slight in power, and pretty much negligible in torque.
VDC in an 09 forester got us through a lot of diagonal situations without any issues, all the car had was a lift and bigger tyres, but being a manual with low range probably helped it a little bit too.
Wish I could've kept that car honestly, it was quite capable for what it was.
So, what you're saying is I shouldn't go off-road with my levorg with cvt?
No, just make sure you film it!
Yup. My '16 crosstrek touring hates slow traffic in the mountains. I mean it hates it. I hate it too. Cvt feels like it wants to jump to higher speeds.
CVTs are fueled by hate. As you go up the hill remind the CVT that it is a peice of shit and slap the dash a few times. Might pick up a few RPMs going up the grades and settle it down in the traffic.
high jacking this comment. Anyone have any good 4x4 trail recommendations in national parks where the destination is the purpose of the off road drive. I don't want to off road for the sake of off roading.
Ya the crosstrek is capable but absolutely has limitations. If the cvt struggles it’ll just not let you move so you don’t burn it out.
I’ve truly off roaded only once so far and it was a blast. But I was in the lowest gear ratio basically the entire time. Would be nice to have a low range for some situations.
This is not a thing. Fast Lane Car doesn't understand what they're talking about. If you're not moving, it's because you don't have enough power.
TFL is hilarious with this. Subaru took a car away from them, more than a decade ago, and they have made it their life mission to make Subaru look bad ever since. Somehow, every time they get their hands on one, they just come to a gentle stop on a hill and insist it can't continue.
Meanwhile you can watch any other reviewer (I'm thinking of Driving Sports TV specifically) just absolutely crush the same kind of obstacles.
The problem is that they don't truly understand what they're doing. They recently "brought back" the 2015 Outback to retry an obstacle and didn't even turn off TCS, which is required in those models because Subaru didn't program it to turn off automatically with x-mode.
5EAT is gooder especially when attached to EZ36.
So what if your car has lsd/lockers in both front and rear diffs, with the fixed center coupling....like...woudnt that be at least as good?
Oh, and a manual transmission. So the only worry is the clutch tbh.
How would an outback perform on this type of trail?
Guv'ment can't tell me where I can't drive my 1996 Subaru SVX
jealous that is my dream car just saw one for the first time in person at subiefest. The svx has my whole heart
Wanted one ever since I was a teen. Wasn't even a subi kid, but the 05 impreza i got was the coolest thing on the market place.
Made me do wayyy to much research into subarus lol
I owned 2. A 92 and a 94. They were great cars and every Subie show i went to got looks.
1996 Subaru Legacy L Wagon 2.2l. I agree 👍
2005 saabaru with 180k on her. 2.0 checking in. Still making a great time through the Berkshires. I also agree 👌
Damn right they can't, but thats because mines in the shop rn and can't move even if they wanted it to
Never heard of them, subscribed and definitely going to watch the series…. Poor svx but very impressive from the 10 minutes I watched, definitely hurts me to see a svx done like that.
The series is pretty great. You'll come to find that the car and its owner have history that go way back.
Tbh with you, id check out gears and gasoline. Donut seldom does videos like that one.
Both Speeed and big time are more enjoyable with the original members of donut
Hi! I am completely clueless about this sort of thing other than a rudimentary understanding that 4WD means all four tires are turning at roughly the same rate and power simultaneously (I think, anyway).
Why is the AWD thing an issue here? Not trying to start nonsense but hoping to gather some type of knowledge that will make me less likely to do something boneheaded with my new Crosstrek.
All wheel drive has the ability to provide power to all 4 wheels, like 4x4 or 4wd (same thing).Unfortunately the wheel that slips is the wheel that turns or provides power. The difference with a fwd is then have one wheel providing power. All wheel drive can have two, one front and one rear. Traction control, typically handled by abs, helps move power to the a wheel with grip. Limited slip differential accomplish this similarly. Often, modern all wheel drive have traction control and limited slip differentials.
4wd is different. It can have all 4 wheels to turn or provide power. On ice or if you are parking on a slippery surface, Awd is way better as you need the slip for the different turning radius of the inner and outer tires. 4wd shines in more extreme situations, less so on road. It is common for 4wd trucks to have lower gear ratios for super slow speeds off road. This happens outside the transmission with the addition of a transfer case. Off road trucks can will have lockers on the rear differential or possibly on the front as well. Lockers make the wheels turn no matter what happens. It is for straight line driving or full wheel slip situations. You turn it on momentarily to overcome an obstacle.
Subarus don’t use a transfer case. Instead, it has a centre differential instead of a transfer case (three diffs total) The centre differential is where a sti can control the power applied between the front or rear axle or its bias. That’s what Subaru calls DCCD control.
I have a sti with dccd. Great( or good enough) for the track to balance rotation of the car. Awesome for gravel roads, snow or ice. Rwd still rules the track though.
I have a 4wd zr2 Colorado with lockers front and rear. It handles rocky climbs and mud like a tank.
I tried to reread this but I’m at an airport lounge and going deep on the open bar. Forgive the rambling.
4wd just locks the front and rear driveshaft together. It can still be two wheel drive as well (one wheel on each axle) if it’s open diffs. It works the same way as awd where it uses traction control to push power around to the other wheels. As you already mentioned lockers are a second layer to that to achieve true four wheel drive assuming you have both a front and rear locker.
Also as you stated that low range is good for slow crawling, but it also greatly increases torque to the wheels.
4x4 is typically far more robust than awd. Awd systems usually have computer nannies that will cut power to prevent damage to drivetrains. On the other hand for example my rubicon in low range and diffs locked will either spin tires if I don’t have enough traction, or will propel me forward if I do. Either way it will give me every bit of power it has lol, for better or for worse
this . subarus have good ground clearance and even more than some stock 4x4 vehicles and also all four wheels are driving so of course people will think these trails could apply to them. especially with a “wilderness” edition. but the way i see it with my outback vs my truck is my subaru propels itself with all wheel drive for traction on a road or gravel road. it was never meant for low end crawling and technical two track. especially bc a lot of parts are exposed and unprotected on the belly of the vehicle as well as the suspension/bushings etc and drives to the wheels AND the transmission just not being for 4x4. i’ve replaced many many parts over my 230k miles on my outback doing exactly that lol. my truck is way more protected and solid for this stuff and has the settings like 4 low and beefed up and protected parts to prevent my vehicle from having to get rescued out on a one lane road in the middle of canyon lands national park on the white rim. many cars go through there so if one person gets stuck it ruins everyone else’s time. not to mention the people coming from over seas who don’t have knowledge or experience and get a subaru rental car or something and send it and get stuck lol. so the NPS doing their NPS thing and trying to apply a blanket safety measure to protect the most amount of people possible.
i know that kitted out custom lifted crosstrek with mudding tires and a widdle wadder is actually more capable than a stock 4x4 ford ranger. and that’s where the blanket rule change doesn’t work but as any governing body, they are trying to implement the best rules they can with the lack of resources given to protect the most amount of people.
makes sense.
If you have a subie with the 4eat you can add in your own center diff lock switch by cutting into the trans wiring harness and get a powertrax for the rear diff and it's pretty much 4x4 at that point lol it's an easy af upgrade if you wanna drive a wagon places it should never go
So, you know how some people have weird love and excessively deep knowledge for a random thing? Mine is AWD systems and 4WD systems. I have done a horrifying amount of research on this, so strap in. First post is background, 2nd is an explanation.
A 2wd vehicle sends power to either the front or the rear wheels, When you accelerate it is beneficial to have power sent to both wheels for better traction obviously. The problem is that when you turn, the outside wheel has to spin faster than the inside wheel. So, how do you get power to go to both tires sometimes, and one tire other times? The answer is a differential. If you go to youtube and type "around the corner differential" and click on the black and white video you'll understand differentials forever. The gist is that the engine supplies the SAME power to both tires, but when you go around a corner, the inside tire can "free spin" while the outside wheel provides power. That's great for cornering, but say the drivers side front wheel is on pavement, and the passengers side is on ice. The engine will provide power until the tire on ice spins, but it can only apply the SAME amount of power to the tire that is on the pavement, which isn't enough to move the car, so you just sit there spinning the passenger wheel. Say it takes 100 ft/lbs of torque to actually move the car, but the tire on ice can only apply 5ft/lbs. That means that the drivers side tire is only getting 5 ft/lbs as well, for a grand total of 10.
AWD and 4WD are not "protected terms" like tow ratings are. It is generally kind of accepted that 4WD applies to a part time system. You flip a switch and go from 2wd to 4wd. It's also generally kind of accepted that AWD refers to solutions that you can leave on all the time. Some brands say 4WD because it sounds more rugged.
4WD-The vehicle is normally 2WD. When you need more traction, you flip a switch or pull a lever, and Mechanically lock the front and rear axles together. If you get one front and rear tire on a sheet of ice, you still aren't going to be able to move. All 4 will simply produce 20 ft/lbs instead of 10 with 2 wheels. The benefit is that if you only have 1 axle with no traction, the other axle can easily push you along.
However, the front tires have to travel a longer distance than the rear tires around corners. The front tires go around the corner, and the rear tires take a slightly shorter, more direct path. This leads to the same problems that the 2wd car has when it comes to left vs right, just front vs rear now. If you turn with the 4WD active, then the rear tires will "hop" and "chirp" (sometimes called crow hopping) as they are forced to turn at a different speed. If you have a LOT of traction on very dry pavement and turn sharply, then you will break something in the drivetrain. (Or the difference builds up slowly during lots of little turns, until something expensive explodes in the middle).
AWD - AWD looks to solve this issue by putting a differential between the front and rear tires, just like the one between the left and right tires. That lets you drive around in AWD all the time, because the front and rear tires can spin at different speeds when they need to, but all provide traction when you need it. However, this leads to a decrease in gas mileage and tire wear. To combat this, there have been a million different solutions to this problem. A very common one is to provide power to the front tires all the time but disconnect the rear wheels via a clutch pack. This is light weight and lets you navigate corners easily. When a difference in wheel speed between the front and rear is detected and passes a certain threshold, the car's computer will start applying pressure to the clutch pack, progressively locking it and sending more and more power to the rear wheels. It'll do this until the wheel speed difference stops, or the clutch overheats.
The problem with this is that the front and rear wheels are never truly locked together. The clutch pack has to be working the whole time there is slip, and it gets hot. They also (usually) can't literally send 100% of power to the rear. In a steep uphill climb where the front tires have virtually no grip, you can easily overcome the locking power of the clutch. In a 4WD, once it's locked, it's locked. There's no clutch pack to get hot or overwhelmed.
All AWD systems are a balance of robustness, weight, price, etc.. A lot of manufacturers focus on simplicity and lightness, so their systems are more like FWD with some rear assist ability tacked on. Subaru has made the AWD part of their brand identity, and so it is very robust and well done.
I’m sorry but a 2wd sends power to front or rear? Sure you an expert on thiss
Idk how Subaru does it but typically awd means only two wheels are getting power until the computer detects a loss in traction (typically wheel speed on one wheel) and when that happens it sends power to the typically non powered wheels.
This is different than what's in my land cruiser which is confused with all wheel drive but its really full time 4wd meaning power is going to all 4 wheels all the time.
Awd - <typically> means 2wd until loss of traction
Part time 4wd - 2wd until transfer case is engaged for 4wd
Full time 4wd - all 4 wheels get power all the time.
Hope this helps! Lmk if I can help clarify anything!
Subaru is full time AWD, front and rear axles are constantly receiving power and torque split is varied based on conditions. The only time a Subaru is not delivering torque to all four wheels is if one has zero grip/is in the air due to open diffs(ignoring the many Subaru models that came with limited slip diffs from the factory)
Thats kinda what I was thinking, isnt that the whole point of symmetrical AWD?
I think the "symmetrical AWD" moniker comes from the half shafts being of equal length, so the idea is that the power flows to the left and the right an equal distance to prevent torque steer and various other shenanigans.
The manual transmission is symmetrical front and rear as far as I know, but I don't think the CVT actually can be, since the rear axle is attached via clutch pack. I've definitely heard that 100% can go to the rear but I don't see how its possible to go farther than 50/50. Heck, the STI had to do all kinds of wizardry to get a rear biased torque split, so I don't see them getting there with my outback.
Appreciated!
This is not really accurate at all, at least how you've worded it specifically. AWD just simply means all wheels have the ability to be powered, nothing more, nothing less. Some systems only power 2 wheels at a time, think haldex type setups, some are all the time AWD, like a Subaru. Most AWD vehicles have open differentials which without the help of any brake torque vectoring just means the power will take the path of least resistance and it has the potential to only be powering 2 wheels at once in the worst of conditions, though there are many AWD setups with limited slip differential setups which eliminate that problem.
So what makes it different from a 4WD system? 4WD just typically means all wheels have the ability to be powered, like awd, but it has fully lockable differentials and has low range.
What makes your example not make sense is that in an on-road setting your land cruiser and the other persons Subaru are essentially functioning exactly the same, sending power to pretty much the same places at the same time and if you both hit a patch of ice your vehicles are going to respond about the same, however in your LC you have the ability to lock your differentials and enter low range and have a much easier time getting out of trouble in low traction environments whereas the Subaru will most likely have to solely rely on brake torque vectoring to send power to what has the most traction.
I appreciate the clarification. All the awd vehicles I have experience with have been 2wd until 4wd is needed. Interesting to read that subarus system is more of a full time 4wd system.
Not all 4x4s have lockable diffs. I’d even argue most on the road don’t have any lockable diffs at all. Some models have diff locks in their higher trims but it’s often only a rear locker (like Toyota, they only offer a rear locker, no front locker for any of their vehicles sold in the US at least). It seems like more vehicles are offering both front and rear lockers nowadays though, but it’s still a slim number of 4x4s.
Those 4x4s that don’t have any lockable diffs have to rely on brake vectoring also
A car with 4 wheels is either 2WD or 4WD.
The reason why this is debated is due to a lack of agreed upon terms on a global scale. The terminology has evolved over the past 30 years.
Take a look at existing advertisements for Subaru in Japan. Many of them say '4WD' and the same car will be marketed as 'AWD' in North America. For example, Impreza WRX STi has advertisements showing 'full-time 4WD' and 'AWD'.
Subaru competes in 4WD class. Japanese engineers I've interviewed who built cars like the Impreza and Lancer use the term 4WD. So, both AWD and 4WD are acceptable.
Within 4WD there are categories such as part-time, full-time and torque-split. This is how it was taught to me by a Mitsubishi engineer who worked on the Lancer Evolution 4WD system.
If you'd like to see some documents explaining this in more detail, let me know.
I honestly dont blame these areas for this. There are too many uninformed and inexperienced drivers out there thinking their subarus can go everywhere and cause issue with trail health, use resources when stuck, etc.
Subarus are very capable, but we have collectively overblown their capabilities to the average driver. I've seen stock foresters do really cool stuff, but that driver knew the limits of the vehicle, how to manage the open diffs, knew the crawl ratio was bad and sacrificed suspension and risk of damage for momentum.
Heck, cvts overheat so easily that it is a common mod to install a transmission cooler. I doubt the average driver will install one. I bet my 15 fxt with a lift, good ATs, no sway bars, skid plates, a rear diff locker and breather, etc would idle past the obstacle shown in the picture... but a capable vehicle makes everything look easy right up until it isnt, then its just hard. Take the mods away and you end up hitting that hard line a lot faster.
I had a lady in the sierras insist to me that her Crosstrek was as capable as my 4Runner and no explaining about offroad tires, low range gears, or locking diffs could convince her- she saw some really great commercials that told her so.
lol.
Subarus are great but it takes a delusional person to call them as capable off-road as one of history's most legendary dedicated off-roaders.
Not delusional, just uninformed.
Delusional if they refuse to listen to a sound explanation for why they're less capable.
But like .. what's the difference when they refuse to inform themselves?
Delusions are fixed, false beliefs that tend to be a predominant factor in a person’s life. They shape their daily actions by their delusion (e.g. avoiding the use of a cellphone/internet and refusing to leave their home for any reason due to their belief of being monitored/threatened) and they can be debilitating.
They exist on a spectrum and some people can manage fine. There is a difference between a delusion and just thinking you know better even when presented with evidence (heck, you can call that a narcissistic trait rather than a delusion).
Edit: more detail added
Yup. I will say, I've made it through some interesting things before. But I was willing to toss my $26k car way more than the more expensive rides haha. Anyone who tries to follow a true 4x4 up a trail quickly realizes the difference.
Its not to say subies can hang, they just need... extra effort.
Extra skill*
I just got my first subaru, a Crosstrek hybrid, and I thought the AWD was 4x4 or even better.
My last car was a 97 Jeep TJ, and although I haven't hit the logging roads with the Subaru yet, it feels just as capable on logging roads. Maybe the terrain in this article is more than the regular logging road
Subies kick much ass on gravel/snow low incline terrain (lineage going back to WRC etc) but when the going gets bouldery and steep, there’s a sharp cutoff where you just have to have low range and center lock.
I think it's time for my obligatory "the 4th gen Impreza/1st gen XV (Crosstrek) had factory low range" comment.
Subaru AWD is the best AWD system I've ever used, but it's not 4x4. A true 4x4 road, in remote places with limited maintenance, service, and evacuation options is not a place for a stock Subaru. It's dangerous for the driver, increases erosion on the road due to wheel spin, and will put a burden on first responders if there is an emergency.
Logging roads typically see more traffic and more maintenance than a Backcountry 4x4 road. The washout shown in this thumbnail is a great example of what looks like a small feature that can completely maroon an AWD vehicle with open diffs. Diagonal rut, bottom of a washout, no way to move forward or backward without power. Xmode might get you out by using the ABS to more aggressively brake one of the free spinning wheels, but it might not. The computer decides. That's where you need recovery gear (shovel, traction boards, winch, tow ropes+support vehicle), which most people don't carry on their family road trip in their Crosstrek.
Every AWD vehicle I know of is also a unibody car, SUV, or crossover. This design inherently puts more fragile mechanical components lower to the ground than a body-on-frame 4x4. Bent trailing arms, broken end links, damages brake hoses, or punctured CVT/Oil pans...I can't count the number of jeep trails I've been on where one particularly tall rock in the middle of the double track is surrounded by a large dark patch...from puncturing someone's oil pan. Not saying every 4x4 has better clearance than a Crosstrek, but IMO a Crosstrek needs skid plates and off-road tires minimum to attempt a 4x4 rated road.
Should’ve told her to follow you through some nasty trails
The funny part is she was on foot, I was driving, and so eventually I was like “so why didn’t you drive it up here?” And she gave me a look.
This was the trail to upper sardine lake which is pretty rough.
It’s not a Subaru issue, it’s an issue with people who shouldn’t be there. If someone has an f150 with 4x4, and they can’t drive well, it’s going to get stuck. If the right guy has a front wheel drive Camry, it’s plausible it climbs better than the f150. If banning AWD on these trails gets these drivers off the road, great.
I don’t want these trails to start requiring special licenses, so this is a good step.
Technique and gear complement each other, but on probably 95% of off road trails, the right driver can make do with just about any car. And the wrong driver can fail with the best equipment.
My dad drove his '71 Pinto around 2 stuck 4x4s on the way to a hunting cabin. He gave it to me as my first car and I once had a lifted 4x4 chase me down to ask me how I drove it, because he couldn't believe I drove through a challenging section. It would be impossible to turn around, and he saw me drive out. He actually asked me if I backed in for a quarter mile and gave up.
I’ve been a lifelong driver of Subarus, 2010 Outback, 2020 Crosstrek, 2023 forester.
I now find myself in need of getting far out on forest service and logging roads in the Klamath and Shasta national forests in rural Nor Cal
I almost got stuck beyond the reach of an offroad wrecker in my 2023 forester. After 6 months of deliberating I bit the bullet and traded in for a 4Runner. A geared transmission 4x4 with 4 Lo is just mechanically a totally different beast than a CVT AWD.
In about a year and a half i think I will be back in budget for a 4runner trailhunter. I cant wait. Im keeping my 15 fxt too. I hope my kids can drive my fxt so when they are ready and licensed they will have a vehicle to send out on the trails with me.
A 4runner would make everything so much easier, but my fxt is no slouch either, that rear locker made all the difference. Out of the lift, skids, removing sway bars, et , the biggest impact on the capability was tires and locker.
I had a 06 wrx before I got my fxt in 2016 used (2015 fxt). I've maintained and modded it ever since then into what it is now. Im genuinely surprised it has survived. It is on its 2nd cvt, but I have a cooler on that now
If you ever want to get back in a subie for fun, get a SH forester or fxt and slap a rear locker in it, and some ATs. Lift it 2" and at minimum grab a front skid plate (I recommend a rear diff plate too) for the price, you will have a ton of fun. Swap in exhaust from a wrx and enjoy the exhaust sounds too haha.
I can make any vehicle do just about anything once.
I love the saying: dont do anything I wouldn't do, twice.
Eh, there’s always that kind of stuff. I’d rather there be a licensing type system whereby you can somehow indicate you have sufficient trail experience to attempt a true 4x4 trail. Too many guys buy a stock rubicon and think they can take on any trail with zero experience
This this the kind of spice I want on a Thursday night
Is an STI with a locking center diff considered awd or 4wd?
Does it have low range?
Yes
🤔 Which STI has low range?
All of them if you’re in reverse…. Sorry I thought the sarcasm was obvious considering the sub 6-inch ground clearance on them makes the drivetrain specs pretty immaterial in comparison.
I hate high speed bumps.
R stands for “really low range backwards gear”
Thats what I wanna know! Ausie 5speed swap on a STi while maintaining dccd somehow???? Lol
Maybe if you find one of the super rare JDM 5 speed with dccd and then swap the center diff over to an Aussie gearbox you could make it work!
I mean subaru did offer a low range package with the ej25/5mt. But that was legacy/fozz.
Also, to this post, stay off the trails if you don't have front and rear lockers, PEASANTS!
High clearance?
FYI all the wilderness models and the stock crosstrek meet the NPS definition of “high clearance.” But that’s irrelevant on a 4WD only road. Ultimately it comes down to not getting stuck. If they’re not pulling you out they’re never going to know or care.
Which means knowing not only the limits of your vehicle but far more importantly the limits of the driver. On the vast majority of roads the benefit of a jeep or 4Runner is just that you don’t need to know what you’re doing.
All points to convince anyone an sti could be 4wd are not really gping to matter, these park service will usually not care and they will go by original spec unless they had some really good morning coffee haha.
Locking center is not really where most draw the line, it is transfer case for low range too. In this case the sti would need the locking center diff (like other full time 4wd cars) but also a low range transfer case. Otherwise id just call it a locking center awd, just more capable awd.
IFFFF you somehow put an ausie 5spd low range trans in and locked the center... id call that 4wd.
I'm completely joking but that's the thing... if you did roll up in an STi versus say, a Crosstrek Wilderness, and if the STi technically met their definition of a 4wd vs awd, would they let the STi go and stop the Crosstrek (which whould be really fucking stupid if they did)? Hell, I'm guessing there are some 2wd dune buggy type cars that would do a lot better up there than most 4wds.
There is always space to gove for modded vehicles. But in this case, it just has to be obvious enough, and you need to convince the right person.
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Let them try and stop me and my Subaru.
They've got to catch up to you first.
Good thing you brought a spare engine
Instead of calling this trail 4WD only and confuse AWD, why not just say "diff lock required?"
I think most people (not professional Redditors) know what they mean.
I didn't know that and I have a Subaru. It wasn't very obvious to me the difference between 4WD and AWD until I just read this post lol
You didn’t know that you don’t have 4wd?
That’s probably why they have the rule.
I didn't understand the difference between 4wd and AWD. I know I don't have any diff locks on the car of course
Put at the bottom of the sign, “If you don’t know what this is, turn around now.”
Most wranglers Don’t have diff locks. (Only the rubicon model I believe) and none do before 96.
4WD doesn't require a differential locker and AWD doesn't require not having one.
So why is Subaru not 4WD?
This just shows where we are as a society when some guy with a Crosstrek is out there making it happen on the trails meanwhile all the shiny 4x4 trucks cruise around the suburbs without a spec of dirt on them
B… B… But I have Wildpeaks and a 2-inch lift!
There are plenty of shiny Subarus driving on the road too
Well yeah
It’s a car first and foremost, a capable all wheel drive car, but still a car…
That wasn’t a dig against trucks used for doing truck things, more so the mentality of the urban and suburban buyers
Got into a 24 wilderness Crosstrek out of an 11 firester and man I'm not sure I agree with a lot of folks in here. Put a 2" lift and some big tires on that thing and it ate up some 4x4 in Moab and Vegas, haven't done much craziness in the Crosstrek but what little I have done it doesn't seem to hold up quite the same - maybe I just knew the Forester better? Either way I miss that old girl.
This has been a law and I continue to to ignore it. Just know your limits and respect nature. They don’t care
What if I'm in a stock crown vic?
Crown Vic is beyond all laws. Open beverage, distracted driving, 4wd trail, everything.
So you can take your old 1989 Subaru wagon and throw it in 4lo no problem. Cool.
….today I learned AWD and 4WD are not the same thing.
If stuck like this, just use left-foot locker to stop the wheel in the air from spinning.
Edit to add: As both a 2020 Forester owner and lifted and built Grand Cherokee that unless the Park Service is paying the tow bills, they shouldn’t ban AWD. Just let folks know that a tow bill will be close to a thousand dollars if they can’t self extract.
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Hold my vape
You've gotta be kidding me.
The right person behind a AWD Subaru will beat an idiot in a 4x4 on most tracks.
I’m an idiot with a stock wrangler rubicon and I’ve done some pretty challenging shit I’d be surprised if a stock or even slightly modified Subaru could do
Mate a wrangler Rubicon is one of the most capable stock vehicles there is.
I've seen Subarus at almost every 4WD only campsite along the east coast and they get in easily. I'm not suggesting they tackle tough stuff.
In the 90s I took my camaro out on a trail and pulled a buddies big tire jeep wrangler out of the mud, after driving through it myself.
Yah, driver skill means a Lot. Admittedly I had about Zero clearance, just deep mud and small rises I had to speed over, but still.
Hell, I've tossed my FWD 84 GL down so many trails marked 4WD only. Haven't gotten stuck yet!
What if it’s a Crosstrek ~~wilderness~~
/jk
Google gave me some bad directions last summer that put me on a “road” that was all rocks that I tried to drive down with my Crosstrek. I ended up having to turn around near the end because the exit would have taken the bumper off.
I was impressed with what it was able to do but I did t want to test the limits and get stuck several miles up a trail with no cell service.
No idea why Google recommend that road but it was sketchy in the backroads of NH.
nah ima do it
I pulled a small pop up camper down a 4x4 trail in Colorado back in the day with my Impreza hatchback. Had to stack rocks once or twice but crazy what you can get away with if you put your tires in the right spots
As a wildlife biologist, ex wildland firefighter, I take my forester to the same places I fought l fires
I got my impreza up to the gray's/torrey's trailhead once but I would not attempt it again.
Wait but my GMC Sierra 1500 says it's AWD not 4x4 because I can't turn it off
It's not a bad plan, just make sure there's appropriate signage. People get quite confused between awd and 4x4 and the earlier dual range Subarus did muddy the waters a bit. Here in Aus we have "high clearance 4wd" restriction/advisory for most tracks. You still end up with a few x trails and foresters needed recovery, but generally it's pretty good for helping people make sensible choices. The hire carollas on the beach however, that's happens whatever you do.
I gave my Forester to my sister due to these rule changes. But I drove that car on some trails where its now banned that weren't a problem at all. Didn't need my traction boards, barely aired down at all and didn't have to try any obstacles more than once.
*I have an 07' Grand Vitara now that's AWD but also has 4WD Low. Its definitely far better off road, but its more that I can pick bad lines on purpose now.
I took my Crosstrek Sport on stock tires through an OHV park once. Got stuck once in water up to the door sill. I definitely had to drive more aggressively than my friends in Wranglers. I wouldn’t press my luck though and try it again.
What’s the difference between awd and 4wd??
How about the tires? That can make a big difference.
https://i.redd.it/2z5i85pqd68g1.gif
This is all I could think of when I read this.
lol same. I think about this a lot.
I accidentally went down a jeep trail once in my brand new Outback. Couldn't turn around and was committed to 10 miles or so. Had a great time and even got a couple of lovely ladies in a "real' 4wd unstuck! Wouldn't do it again though.
What about my OBW :(
Thanks for reminding me of this gem, where a guy took a brand new mustang he rented on a trail, proceeded to get the trim ripped off from taking it on the trail, then towed it through a sand storm. Not even 1k miles on it and it was totaled out.
Oh well... offroad tax... here I come. Speeding tax is worth it too.
3 years ago I went to scout a trout lake (because maps were adequate on the terrain surrounding the lake), which was 16 KMs in from Civilization. 8+ KMs of that was in a washboard, pothole-y, fist-sized rock-infested logging road and my absolutely stock OBW (save for tires, have Falken Wildpeak AT-Trails) handles it like an absolute champ. I thought for sure that I'd break something, but the car came out identical to how it came in, save for being much dirtier.
I don't know how it'd do in mud, but I'm sure it would manage
better start ticketing 4wd rigs that are unlocked in the center too lol
I drove a Forester up a mountain trail very easily. Had it balancing on two wheels at some points. Traction control did its thing - never stopped advancing an inch. Don't know about the crosstrek tho.
Just a stock Forester?
I understand who ever is driving a Subaru is probably inexperienced but this is sorts bull shit. Ive been taking my Subaru everywhere with my taco friends! Never got stuck.
This particular driver also didn't get stuck, they were cited after based on a YouTube video. It's just gate keeping based on outdated technical jargon. Modern AWD systems with wheel slip based traction control systems are pretty close to 4wd with the exception of low range gearing. They're plenty capable
This was my thought as well. This is outdated nonsense. If I take a 1996 Cherokee with open diffs and street tires on this trail I’m fine but an Outback wilderness is somehow not permitted? Modern AWD systems with off road modes are honestly just as capable as 4wd unless you’re in the really tough stuff. Also, 4wd vehicles with no lockers are going to be worse than modern AWD vehicles in nearly every situation except maybe ground clearance/tire size.
Subaru X-Mode approximates low range gearing.
Subaru Xmode approximates locking/limited slip differentials, it has no ability to change gear ratios like a low range gear. That is what the name X Mode means, it's independently vectoring torque to individual wheels via the brake calipers, the 4 wheels being an X.
The biggest off-road advantage the Outback Wilderness has over the other Outbacks is a lower final gear ratio, this was required because X Mode cannot approximate low range gearing any more than just manually putting the car in 1st approximates low range gearing
Seen the people managing PA forests joke about this. Claim their "unbiased" experience is the vast majority of cars needing rescue are Subarus. I doubt there is no bias.
When I went overlanding on cape cod the government has a bunch of very specific and not necessarily logical requirements and I bet this is a similar situation.
I feel like tickets should only be issued if the car gets stuck. A big part of offroading is driver skill. I've seen AWD cars get places that a lot of 4wd owners wouldn't be able to get to, purely because of the drivers of said AWD cars just know how to wheel.
A Subaru can handle anything a 4x4 can, except in areas where high clearance is needed. Even then, Subarus can usually achieve better results than most other AWD vehicles. Fact!
Not a fact… 4lo is very useful
huh?
It's referring to this old post https://www.reddit.com/r/NationalPark/s/9eRzoPD502
ty
The torque vectoring through the brakes can actually chew up trails. I’d like to see an Xmode that fakes lockers.
Was out in a popular dispersed camping area that was relatively easy to get to, but from there was this one very steep rutted out road. I had taken our Montero up to check out what was there and ended up camping there. Coming back down the hill I encountered a jeep and truck heading up with no room for me to pull off. I backed it up this hill until they could pass me, granted I had not yet hit the rutted out section. Later the next day someone in an Impreza is looking for a spot to camp and starts pulling up this road. Someone else in our group (whose car was not able to get up this hill) told her that she wouldn't be able to make it. She cautiously drove up to the bad section, saw close up that the ruts were nearly as deep as her tires were tall, and just backed out to head somewhere else.
I used to have a completely stock Forester and I probably would have attempted it but who knows how successful it would have been. The Montero just walked up it with only 2 wheels on the ground at times and never stuttered. Didn't even need 4hi or low, just AWD. Realizing now that I've typed out my story that this is the Subaru sub...
I did rimrocker trail with my outback wilderness after the trail had two massive washouts that required some rebuilding and pretty technical driving. Ripped my skid plate half off but she made it!
Not to say Rimrocker is an insane off-road trail, but I think a capable AWD can do most trails if you have some options for lines. Obviously not going to be rock crawling in it.
A few years back i went to a resort type thing on top of a mountain in Panama. My wife set it up. We drove like 8 hours to go close to there then once we sort of close there were no more paved roads and all kinds of signs saying you needed a 4x4 to get there. I called the resort and they said yes for sure It's a very steep climb and it was raining at the time. We were in her 2018 Corolla. I said fuck it and we went up. Slowly. But we made it. I will never forget peoples faces looking at me pulling into the parking lot. Was a bunch of raised Helix and our Corolla. Never doing that again though.
The park rangers are actually really smart about this;
All you have to do is ask them.
I drove my Subaru Outback down Shafer Trail/Potash Road at Canyonlands NP...
It's rated for 4WD cars ... The Ranger told me it would be "risky but not reckless" if I took my Outback down it, and for me, that was enough of a Green Light.
I busted my fog lamp assembly but otherwise made it through unscathed.
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I wonder how that rule would apply to an EV like the Rivian? The quad motor would be considered 4x4 and the dual motor AWD, unless I am misunderstanding. Super high torque at low speeds and superior traction control system compared to standard ICE setups.
Rivian is AWD.
How would a quad motor, where there is a motor in each hub, not be considered 4 wheel drive? Each wheel is powered independently.
As the owner of an AWD Subaru and an old Jeep , there's no replacement for a true 4x4 system. I've never met a computerized AWD system that beats a true transfer case driven 4-wheel drive system with most importantly, a low range, and at least a limited slip rear-differential (and a non-CVT transmission or manual). Love my Subaru but it doesn't compete with a Wrangler or a 4Runner off-road, or even my old POS Jeep Liberty off-road.
If you have the right features/mods, AWD can be adjusted to operate exactly like 4WD. Not applicable to all cars, but the options and capabilities are there.
thats bullshit
my Subaru has as much ground clearance as them
Not just about ground clearance but also the diff and trans
Trans lives matter
And approach and departure angle clearances.
Too late!
By 4WD do they mean ATV? Or are they singling out Subaru AWD for some reason?
NPS charged a guy with a misdemeanor (criminal) for putting up his tent.
But it's symmetrical......SYMMETRICALLLLLLLL
no part of me would drive a cvt subaru on offroad trails.
Good
That’s half of Matt’s off-road recoveries business model
Please don't drive your 4WD bro dozer on roads that don't require 4WD.
I believe that .. you’re not my mum and I’ll do what I want.
This post brought to you by a proud supporter of:
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Please DO drive your crosstrek on 4x4 trails.
Nope just
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