As you may know, the Space Shuttle Discovery is at risked of being relocated from her current home in Virginia to Houston. I, like many others, are vehemently opposed to the move and pray it doesn't happen. I write this post as a semi-objective look at the situation and to make a few things clear. None of this is to definitively say the relocation will never happen, but to say that it's not as inevitable as you may think.
- Many have the impression that the move was Trump's idea and thus, it's guaranteed to happen. This is not true, as the idea originated from Texas senators John Cornyn and Ted Cruz. Their failed statewide attempt to move Discovery led them to include a provision for it in July's OBBB act. Trump has never publicly said he supports the move, much less that he is aware of it. In fairness, Trump has made clear his opposition to the Smithsonian, but that has more to do with the content of their other museums. The trend of this administration has been congressional Republicans doing whatever Trump wants, not the other way around.
- Newly-confirmed NASA admin Jared Isaacman said earlier this month he would support the move. This was disappointing to hear, but there is a decent chance this was an empty promise to the Texas senators in order to get confirmed. Seeing as Ted Cruz is a leader of the Commerce, Science, and Transportation committee, and Isaacman's nomination already failed once, it's likely he wanted to avoid saying anything that would jeopardize it again. Not to mention NASA transferred full ownership of Discovery to the Smithsonian in 2012. Still, it's not yet clear what Isaacman will do.
- Perhaps the most important point is that while the 85 million dollars for moving Discovery was authorized, it has not been appropriated yet. 2026 funding bills for the Smithsonian and NASA have not been signed yet, and members of both parties have shown disapproval of the relocation. In July, the Republican-controlled House Committee on Appropriations overwhelmingly passed an amendment cancelling the funding. Also of note is that Virginia will have a Democratic governor and attorney general come January, and they are likely to be sympathetic to the shuttle's plight.
Again, nothing is for certain yet. I unfortunately wouldn't be surprised if the relocation happens after all and Discovery is heavily damaged in the process. Still, whatever her fate may be, we will always admire those who built and flew her for thirty years, and always be thankful for her service to our country and mankind.
The National Air and Space Museum is an excellent home for Discovery, and they should keep it.
At the end of the day it might be pragmatism that decides Discovery's fate, as I believe that the ONE 747 capable of transporting it has been decommissioned, or has at least been put out to pasture for some time. Creating a new transport plane might cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Seems an awfully steep cost for a cheap political stunt.
Ironically one of the (two) shuttle carrier aircraft is on display in Houston, with the Independence mounted to it. It also had to be cut up into pieces to be moved.
Their plan (such as it is) wasn't to move Disco intact, it was to do the same and cut it up.
Isn’t the Houston shuttle a replica?
Yep, Independence is a replica.
And it actually used to be where the Discovery is now, funnily enough. Seen both of them there now
That's not true. Enterprise was at the National Air and Space Museum before they received Discovery. Independence was on display outside at Kennedy Space Center before they received Atlantis and built the current indoor exhibit
Oh shit! You're right. It's been a long time
I saw it in Florida as a kid, and then in Houston as an adult, and only found out it was the same one recently.
It is a full-scale mockup that was useful for various low-level logistics and public tours.
Yes, the Space Shuttle Independence is a replica. It was originally the Explorer and housed at Kennedy. When Kennedy got Atlantis, the Explorer was moved to Houston (this was like 2011/2012) and renamed the Independence.
Re named because????? These people are truly nuts.
Yes.It is a replica. One that serves just fine n keeps us up from spending 500 million to destroy a real one.
And allows people to tour the inside! Ain’t no way folks would be allowed inside the Discovery.
That would be pretty cool. I'd love to be able to go inside a shuttle, even a replica, and get an astronauts view of it.
I am pretty sure it is the replica that the astronauts used to train for the missions - not something made after the fact. It is itself a legitimate artifact of the missions, just not one that actually went into space.
It was made in 92 and I don't think was ever used as anything except a tourist attraction, it was on display at KSC by 93. The interior isn't really accurate enough to be a good training aid. But it does incorporate real shuttle parts including some that went to space
I stand corrected, you are right. Apparently there was one that astronauts used to train, but from the outside it mostly looked like a shipping container or something.
The other 747 transport can be seen at the Joe Davies Heritage Airpark in Palmdale, CA, right next to USAF Plane 42 and the Blackbird Airpark Museum.
Which is why they're not going to do that. As much as I think we'd all like to believe the lack of a functioning carrier aircraft would stop this plan in its tracks, the relocation plan actually calls for the shuttle to be chopped into pieces and irreparably damaged so they can ship it over on barges.
Which should be the one insurmountable thing that utterly cancels this stupid plan. I fear that it won't be.
Cruz and Trump didn't care about destroying the Shuttle, they only care about damaging the Smithsonian by taking the Shuttle away from there. If that eventually happens, the Smithsonian should use yellow paint to draw an outline on the floor where the Shuttle used to be as a reminder for however long the museum exists of how our nation's history was damaged.
Even then, chopping her up would still cost more than the $85 million provided.
They’ll use the same technique they used to chop up the East Wing. Won’t cost a penny over $83 mil.
That's the most depressing thing I've heard all day!
I don’t understand the objection to chopping it up. It’s never flying again no matter what, so they just need it to look good on display after transport.
You can still see burn marks from reentry on the wings today. Can't wait to also see burn marks from the lowest bidder welders that were hired to glue the thing back together.
They wouldn’t build a new transport for just one move. They would chop it into pieces and freight it by sea
Let alone the professionals that know how to fly the 747, load, and unload the shuttle safely are mostly retired.
No, they'd just cut it into pieces and either barge or trailer it to Houston.
Republicans will gleefully saw it into tiny little pieces in order to score imaginary political points.
Use the plane trump took as a bribe
The OBBB did include special appropriations for NASA:
$85 million is not remotely enough. Earlier this year the Smithsonian estimated that just moving the Shuttle would cost $50-55 million plus $25 million for contingencies, and that building a facility in Houston to house it would cost $250 million. More recent estimates by the Smithsonian and NASA (e.g., as reported by Spacenews) are a much higher $120-150 million for the transportation alone. Congress only appropriated $85 million. The language used ("of which not less than $5,000,000 shall be obligated for the transportation of the space vehicle") implies that only a small fraction of the $85 million was expected to go into transportating the vehicle.
There is also the little matter that NASA no longer owns Discovery. The Smithonian does.
Furthermore, the OBBB does not actually specify Discovery or a Shuttle, the Smithsonian as the source, or (necessarily) Houston as the destination. It dictates that a "space vehicle" which has "flown into space" and "carried astronauts" be "transferred to a field center of the Administration that is involved in the administration of the Commercial Crew Program" and "placed on public exhibition at an entity within the Metropolitan Statistical Area where such center is located." Hyoothetically, sending an Apollo capsule from another musuem to KSC would fulfill the letter of the law. (*cough* And trade it for the Apollo 14 CM already there.).
It says vehicle that took people to space. They should do the funniest thing and send them the Boeing Starliner.
LOL, true, the bill doesn't say that the "space vehicle" must have actually brought people back from space.
FWIW Houston probably doesn't plan to build a facility for it. They are likely going to chop it up and then display the pieces outside where it will degrade due to weather, because that is exactly what they did to the Saturn rocket they received
This is partially why they were never given the opportunity the first time around. They do a terrible job maintaining these artifacts.
Sheesh... the three remaining Saturns were all displayed outdoors for decades, not just the JSC Saturn. They were never "chopped up", they were multi-stage rockets. They were huge, much larger than the shuttle orbiters (almost 4x the length) and eventually were moved indoors (or had buildings constructed around them). Each of the three were displayed outdoors for decades until it was realized they were deteriorating, and each got a full restoration and a proper indoor display, much of which was funded through donations.
Houston didn't "do anything" to their Saturn, other than building display structures to support it horizontally and building a fence around it. They didn't "chop it up". Hunstville and KSC did the same things, outdoor displays (like the scores of other historic rockets displayed in dozens of "Rocket Gardens" around the US, to this day) and each Saturn was eventually restored and housed indoors.
Yup. The entire thing is about "take" not "have", they don't have any plans after the theft.
Dude I work at JSC and I’ve seen all the shuttles. Even I don’t want it moved. Not worth the risk of damage, and we don’t have room for it. Where would it go??
There should be some very strong legislation that prevents any state from attempting to steal artifacts from the Smithsonian, a National entity. I don't know what political capital has to be expended to make this possible, but it's insane to me that this intitive has been allowed to progress this far.
Texas has no right to deny the people of America the historic preservation of our national heritage.
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NASA’s Johnson Space Center is uninvolved in the relocation of Discovery. Discovery would go to Space Center Houston, a private, non-profit tourism attraction.
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Well one thing is clear you have no idea what “Smithsonian Affiliated” means.
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Which means nothing. The point is you are clueless.
And that STILL doesn't give them the right to demand artifacts from the Smithsonian.
JSC is a federal facility. Not a museum. And it already lost the bid process for a Shuttle years ago.
Texas has no jurisdiction over artifacts in the Smithsonian.
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Space Center Houston (a private entity) cannot just take an artifact from another museum. That's not how the world works.
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Why do they think they're owed an artifact that is on display in another museum?
And yes, it would be stealing. Stealing from the American people.
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Nobody suggested they weren't.
The Smithsonian was selected as the BEST facility to place the shuttle on display. Space Center Houston was deemed to be inadequate. None of this is news, and it has been addressed in the sub many times.
The Smithsonian is not part of the government.
JSC was given the opportunity to bid along with all the other museums. They scored lower than the cut off and were removed from the list. I’ve never seen the reasons but according to various articles and Reddit posts over the years it was mainly due to the lack of a facility and previous poor treatment of artifacts.
If Texas takes Discovery, I think the Alamo should be moved to Los Angeles. Including the basement. Or maybe gift it to Mexico, instead.
We should turn the Alamo into a museum of the horrors of slavery.
We don't want that pile of shit. Although I guess we can take the Alamo and dump it in the ocean as an artificial reef.
Move it Northern Virginia to replace the shuttle.
That eyesore in Northern Virginia? Especially when it has nothing to do with Virginia?
I think Hollywood would be the better home. The main reason most people know much about the Alamo is because of its lore Hollywood has used in movies over the decades. Hollywood has done more for the Alamo's fame and reputation than anything Texas has ever done for it. It belongs in a museum (in Southern California)!
If that shitty reasoning is good enough for Discovery, it's more than good enough for transferring the Alamo to California.
He also stated moving it "in one piece", which pretty much forces it into an empty promise to actually move it
It can be moved in one piece, just requires knocking down a number of highway overpasses. Extremely costly and damaging but this administration also knocked down 1/3rd of the White House so there is no limit to what they're willing to do.
All that will happen, if it does, is they will destroy it, move most of the pieces to Texas, and after a bit of delay and obfuscation those pieces will turn up in private collections.
But people in the sub told me it doesn't matter if they destroy it, because it's never gonna fly again. It just has to look pretty! Those people are so coincidentally happened to be massive SpaceX fans... makes ya wonder if they even actually care about space or history
They signed their Reply "SpaceX fan"?
You just have to go view somebody's history and if they post in SpaceXlounge, SpaceX, SpaceXmasterrace and every other SpaceX related sub along with R/Space.... downvote anything not pro SpaceX/Isaacman or act like you... its pretty safe to assume they're a fan or a super fan... you are more into SpaceX than anything else haha so I presume being a fan is your hobby
I'm a fan of everything to do with advancing spaceflight capabilities, meaning I'm a fan of Rocket Lab and Stoke Space and SpaceX. SpaceX has been doing a lot more for a lot longer so my activity contains more SpaceX stuff. Since you use the word fan as a pejorative I'll switch to saying I *admire* those companies and what they're doing. I'm even an admirer of New Glenn now that it's flown. Don't worry, I'm not a fan of Musk and the destruction he wrought in my government.
You took the time to check out my history and sample my replies just to answer this? As well as a bunch of other people, as indicated in your first reply? That's quite a hobby itself.
Mar-A-Lardo gets a giant lawn ornament.
I would expect nothing less from the new head of NASA. I’m sure a few pieces will end up in his own private collection.
Not sure whether you’ve really cleared anything up. It may not be inevitable (and I don’t see anyone saying that) but this kind of destructive signalling is absolutely par for the course for the current administration. I can’t see any major reason they wouldn’t just give it a go, make a hash of it and end up with some dumb situation like half a wreck in two cities. You might say, people will fight or it’s illegal; that hasn’t made much difference to most of the stupid things being done so far.
Indeed. Trump tore down 1/3 of the White House in a few days, with no warning nor approvals. Cutting an orbiter into five pieces one night at UH is minor in comparison.
Isaacman said just enough to get him approved and nothing more. He knows the Shuttle really cannot be moved without tearing it apart.
And he did specifically say it should be moved "in one piece" which, since he surely knows that's not practical, seems like it was designed as an obstruction.
Exactly, he is a very quick learner of the political game.
Let's hope you are correct.
Thank you for this post OP. There has been a bit of hysteria over this at a time we need clear thinking. IMO, your point 3 is the most important one of all. It’s important that folks contact their representative on this issue. Even GOP Representatives are open to blocking this since Trump hasn’t weighed in on the matter. We can still save the Disco.
Can we, as a nation, make a law that major issues and/or things that do not pertain directly to the budget's current continuation (like, in the case, the moving of the Shuttle, but in other cases things like renewing healthcare provisions, passing laws to change how VA sites are handled, and so on...) cannot be slapped into a bill that's passage either keeps the government operational or not?
Like... those bills should just be: "Here's the budget bill - it has some programs we want to reduce/increase spending on." - that should be it for "OmniBus" bills.
Anything wherein the law itself, which isn't already scheduled to be sunset, or a provision that has nothing to do with the budget, shouldn't be included in these things...
These decisions should be debated separately. Now, instead, it was rolled into the OBBB, which Trump rubber stamped without reading, and has major ripple effects.
Everything from the closure of US based NMC Battery plants to the moving of the shuttle which, again, I do not see why this was shoved into a bill that's passage or denial literally kept the government operational.
It is probably good to also keep in mind that Isaacman supports the move of the shuttle in one piece. And there's basically zero chance of moving it to Houston in one piece as getting it to a barge from the Smithsonian is not possible that way and moving it by air would involve re-commissioning one of the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft. But one of them was taken apart and reassembled (ironically enough to get it to the Houston Space Center) and the other is at the Pima Air and Space museum in California, where it got plucked for parts to keep SOFIA flying (now also retired and on display at PIMA). I suspect the one at Pima might be made to fly again if the will and budget was there but it is by no means a guarantee (takes only the smallest bit of corrosion found in just the wrong place to scupper the plan).
Putting a space shuttle in Texas would be like putting a Rembrandt in a cow pasture.
Or the Mona Lisa in the Texas governor's mansion.
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It would almost be cheaper to build a 1:1 replica of Discovery than move her. This is all political theater.
They have a 'replica'. On top of one of the shuttle carrier aircraft..
https://spacecenter.org/exhibits-and-experiences/independence/
Why is the government paying a single cent for the display of the shuttle? It should be swept so that anything subject to ITAR is removed and then just auction it off - let the buyer figure out how best to transport it.
The visitor complex at Kennedy Space Center is privately maintained and has Space Shuttle Atlantis on display. They also have a great Saturn V exhibit. How are the other shuttles and Saturn Vs doing on display? I don’t think any hold a candle to the exhibits KSC has set up, do they? I believe several are in storage or worse.
Not to be dismissive, but, why does it truly matter? Aside from political bragging right or whatever, what difference does it make if it’s in VA or TX?
I'm sorry but is such a nothing burger, from a Space Science POV. This is literally political posturing. From a budgeting POV wasting money on this is bullshit. Why don't use that money for more important things. But the reaction about this is bizzare as well. We certainly have more important things to fight for than some old space ship. While it's definitely a cool piece of history and I would prefer it not to be chopped up I also don't see the need to spend so much time over this when we have more important things to worry about such as making sure Space Science projects get funded.
The people who stole from the Louvre could have used this information.
I don't understand why people care so much about this. I thought it was a trump thing, but the post says it really isn't. So, what gives?
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Is that the plan? To use duct tape to put it back together? Seems like that wouldn't work.
The reality is that the Shuttle's wingbox and spar are permanently assembled, there are no bolts that can be removed to dismantle it. The sawing process will destroy the structural integrity of the spar and wing box, meaning that the Shuttle will no longer stay up on the landing gear or hang from the originally designed lift points. Remember, the Shuttle weighs over 165,000 lbs by itself, so without the integral one-piece internal structure it will collapse under its own weight. This means basically a whole external set of scaffolding and support struts will have to be designed and built to hold the Shuttle pieces more or less together.
The tiles will have to be removed, and that process breaks them into pieces since they're glued in place. The factory and production lines that made those tiles no longer exists, so there's no way to make replacement tiles. No matter what, all the cut lines will be visible in the final result. It'll look like the Frankenstein monster. Over time it'll probably slowly deform and sag, so they'll have to build a lot of internal support structure as well, but given that it weighs so much even that structure likely won't hold things together properly.
In short, moving the Shuttle will not only destroy it as an artifact, it'll damage the value of the nation's history and the national museum, the one place that represents our history to not only our citizens, but our history to the world. Destroying the Shuttle is petty, and it will be done out of pettiness if it actually happens. The damage will be irreversible and profound.
Many of us love our country and want our national history preserved- and not used as political fodder for state politician to score points.
Do you decide how to feel about something because of how Trump feels about it? Texas stealing the shuttle being wrong has nothing to do with Trump.
Florida has one. Texas has a history with the shuttle. Makes more sense than a place like Idaho. Is the issue that it is going to Texas?
Space Center Houston scored too low amongst the museums that bid for a shuttle at the end of the STS program. That is why they were not selected to receive one. That ship sailed. Years ago.
The issues are:
1) Currently there’s no way to move Discovery without permanently damaging it. Theoretically they might be able to restore one of the two aircraft designed to carry it, but that’s a very long shot, and would take up most of the $85M already allotted. Every other method requires cutting it up, which is a ridiculous proposition.
2) There is no objectively valid reason for moving Discovery. It is currently on display in a free and publicly accessible non-profit museum, and is owned by an organization that is likely the most skilled and well-equipped organization on the planet for the maintenance, restoration, and display of historical items. The only reason that a handful of men in Texas are trying to move it is because of their egos. They have no actual interest in what’s best for the public display and preservation of the Shuttle, they just want to pat themselves on the back and get publicity.
It also establishes a very dangerous precedent. What's to stop two future Pennsylvania Senators from jamming language into a budget Bill demanding the "return" of the Declaration of Independence? After all, it was created in Philadelphia...
For that matter, there is almost no artifact from the space program that has a geographical link to the DC area, other than the Apollo-era Mobile Quarantine Facility trailers that were fitted out in Falls Church. That wasn't the intent of Air and Space: It's a national museum dedicated to preserving artifacts associated with human flight and space exploration - from around the country.
No the issue is that its being removed from the Air and Space museum annex, which is next to the nations capital and one of the best museums in the country. All because Texas thinks they deserve a space shuttle and it was the only one they could possibly take. Texas doesn't deserve a space shuttle anymore than DC, and the nations top museum. It being tacked onto a superbill because theres no other way they could get it is another issue.
Should we not care about our history and how it is treated?
Believe it or not, there's a lot of us that are opposed to destroying important pieces of history to satisfy the obsession of a coward like Ted Cruz.
She should never have been sent to Virginia at all. Mission Command's state deserves her more than any other state except Florida.
This is such a parochial view of the space program. The Space Shuttle wasn't a Texan project -- it was an American project. It belongs to all of us, not just Texas. The program was funded by all Americans through federal tax dollars, the orbiter was built by American companies and engineers, and it flew a US flag. While there's a solid argument that Texas would have been a great home for it, it doesn't "deserve" it more than any other state. The national museum is a very worthy home for it, and a great place for all Americans to celebrate US accomplishments in space.
WTF is Mission Command? You trying to say Mission Control? Houston got a Saturn V and left it to rot in the Houston heat and humidity. They don’t deserve anything.
The Space Shuttle is a national asset and should be displayed at a national museum than has a demonstrated track record of caring for historical artifacts.
Because they treated their Saturn V so well didn’t they
I think the shuttle should stay where it is as it's a vast waste of money, and would be destructive, to move it. Absolutely ridiculous idea. But the Saturn V has been restored and is indoors now, climate controlled, with a cool exhibit around it. Absolutely worth a visit, it's awe-inspiring. So enormous.
The fact that it had to be restored in the first place is a pretty serious problem in this regard. The entire appeal of Discovery is that it is displayed indoors in the state at which it landed after its last mission. You can go to the Smithsonian and observe it exactly how it would have been observed in 2011, and in 100 years people will be able to see it exactly as it was in 2011, because no museum in the nation is better equipped than the Smithsonian to preserve an artifact in that manner.
Chopping it up to irreversibly damage the internals/paneling/heat blankets, exposing it to the elements, and then putting it back together and restoring it goes against Discovery's purpose as a museum piece
I agree with you so I'm not sure why you downvoted me (or why someone did, I shouldn't assume who.) It would be absolutely ridiculous and destructive to move the shuttle. It's a preposterous proposal.
That being said, the Saturn V is no longer being treated as it was and is no longer sitting outside rusting in the swamp that is Houston. It's nice to see people doing better.
Mission Command has lots of radios. They still do.. They never had anything to do with the Shuttle, and they don't deserve to. They can keep their radios. The National Air and Space Museum in the Nations Capitol, of the Nation that built the shuttle should keep the craft where it is.
There is no such thing as "mission command"
The shuttle should remain where it is as it would be destructive and a vast and ridiculous waste of money to move it.
But the professionals in Mission Control (not command) are an absolutely amazing, incredible, competent, hard-working, brilliant, and otherwise worthwhile group of people who don't deserve these insults. They're not radio operators. They fly NASA's human spacecraft. If you're not up to speed on what they do, it's absolutely worth a visit or worth watching a documentary about mission control as it's quite an impressive institution. I can also highly recommend the book "Failure is not an option" for a history of mission control during Apollo. Fantastic read.
Why have it somewhere people will see it when we can move it to Houston?
The Smithsonian is our national museum. It was going to get one over any other location except maybe Cape Canaveral.
yeah, not a fake account or anything.
Please tell me more about this "Mission Command" that was so instrumental in the Space Program.
I live in Houston and we definitely deserve a shuttle. But not that one. We should have been third choice, behind the Smithsonian and Cape Canaveral. And way ahead of LA and New York.
You do realize the shuttles were built in California.
The Shuttles were built in Palmdale, which is right outside LA. And LA is going to be exhibiting Endeavour in a launch configuration. Meanwhile Houston's plan for an orbiter was so crappy that you guys were cut almost immediately from the competition. So no, you guys didn't deserve a Shuttle.
Houston has a Space Shuttle: SAIL. It has an official NASA orbiter number and everything. And it's super cool.