One difficulty with calling certain behaviors, like playing the lottery, irrational is that it assumes what the person is trying to maximize (for example, expected monetary value). But we can take into account internal factors (the value of getting to dream about winning the lottery). But it isn't clear where to draw the line -- if we include all internal factors, it seems we lose the ability to call anything rational. But if we don't include clearly relevant factors, we lose the value of normative frameworks.

"Normative frameworks might never capture the full complexity of human psychology. There are enough degrees of freedom that it’s hard to ever know for sure any action is strictly irrational. But maybe that’s okay—maybe the point of these frameworks is to give us tools for thinking and to improve our own reasoning about our preferences, rather than some ultimate arbiter of what is or is not rational."

  • Haha, this reminds me of my approach to investing: I know by now that purely passive investing into index funds gives me a higher return than any active investing I do. Tracking over several years, I underperform the index with stupid, but contained bets.

    But I still "like" the idea of testing my hypothesis, trying to form an opinion, test it and see where it goes". I like the adrenaline. I like the game. I realize I lose money, but I make the conscious decision to still do it.

    I don't think rationality is just a calculation of running the numbers and coming up with an expected value tgat decides between options. It means being aware of the values at play, considering the tradeoff and making a conscious decision based on those tradeoffs.

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    Similarly 90% of my investing is index ETFs, but I pick a couple of stocks partly for "activist" reasons (I want them to succeed) and partly for fun speculation.

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  • Agree with coffee example at beginning.  Developing taste in things means you're deliberately making it more difficult to obtain pleasure.  If one lab rat insisted on performing more tricks than another before taking a food pellet, you wouldn't think the rat is rational.  Yes there's signaling value.  So just kearn to talk about the thing (wine, art etc) without spending the money and effort, and most people won't be in a position to verify the costliness of your signal.  

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  • Nice coffee example - although the state of coffee sold in cafes up and down the UK is so, so bad you don't need to be a coffee snob to find it aggravating. Someone who just prefers instant coffee out of a jar would be disappointed in Costa coffee (a prominent UK chain).

    This did actually change in the analogous case of beer. Pre 90s ale in UK pubs was overwhelmingly bland garbage, with real ale establishments being rare (esp in cities). A real ale enthusiast was the meme of a perpetually disappointed person with a beard. This completely changed and you'd now have to go out of your way to find a pub serving no good beer - expressing taste in beer is now unremarkable and doesn't signal an unusual hobby.

    Interesting why the coffee taste-makers have not been able / wanted to drive similar change in mainstream UK outlets.

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  • I am a fan of drinking the bad coffee and not developing a taste for good coffee. People get cross addicted to the specific caffeine delivery system and preparation method. People usually don't switch up on this. You might as well drink the one at work.

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    This is also why people should avoid travel.

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    People don't really get addicted to going a specific place though. they are happy to go to different places. coffee doesn't work that way. tons of people are very specific about how they like their coffee because they get anticipatory effects before the caffeine hits their bloodstream

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  • re coffee, signaling is part of it, weak preference is another. Probably most won't think it's worth the hassle of brewing like I do, but they also think it's hipster and pretentious. They'll avoid it for the same reason they drink bad beer instead of good beer.

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  • This is quite interesting, as I’d say that I have the meta-meta-preference to not be the kind of person who would lose something by experiencing better forms of things. In fact a number of times in my life I’ve internally hoped to never be the kind of person to consider myself too small for something; to never turn back or away in the face of something new that wasn’t obviously/immediately/eventually malignant.

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  • I found the article a bit scattered, I feel like the various parts are not well related to each other. But I don't want to write a long criticism.

    Interesting nonetheless, thanks for sharing.

    Regarding coffee itself, if you enjoy cheap coffee, I still find it crazy to not try different ones.

    Disclaimer: I am a coffee "snob", I enjoy good quality light roasted single origin coffee. And while you can settle on decent coffee you like quite quickly and have it regularly without spending that much time and money on it, it's still a hobby that takes at least a little bit of time and money. It's not crazy to not want to take on a new hobby that will cost you time and money, even if you believe if would be enjoyable.

    But the assumption that trying a better or different coffee will suddenly make mass brand coffee worse is wrong. Note that it kinda happened to me, but not fully. I sometimes drink coffee that people and places offer and I'm usually fine with it, depending on how bad the bad coffee is. But importantly it happened after long time of trying out variety of things and focusing on taste, not after trying occasional cup that was very different.

    I brewed variety of coffees in variety of ways for quite a few people. Majority of them liked it a lot, some didn't (mostly those are people that don't like any coffee that has acidic taste, and I could offer them a coffee that would suit them but it's not what I usually buy). Among those who tasted my coffee and liked it greatly, almost none changed their habbits. With exception of a few people that were drinking bad coffee but did not like the taste, they just drank if for other benefits.

    Hard to blame someone for having meta-preference for something "worse". But also it's irrational in other ways than just some simplified calculated utility. In case of this guy's coffee preference it's just losing out experience because of anxiety, which is pretty common in people. Don't get me wrong, also in me, but I try to recognize it sometimes and make conscious effort to overcome it, with positive outcomes.

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