Yes, but given the timeframe this occurs in, the version of Warlock we're used to nowadays didn't exist. Warlocks and Witches were variants of Wizard that focused on particular spells rather than being their own class.
I'd argue they could've claimed he was an inadvertent cleric of Vecna (though Vecna wasn't even a demigod - which iirc happened in 2nd edition - when stranger things occurs. They're playing the OG version where Vecna is just a lich, so...)
I mean they made the caster roll a D20 when casting fireball, enemy didn't roll saving throw and they didn't even check the damage so they do seem to be home-brewing like crazy
Next thing you'll tell me those pesky paladins got the ability to smite
Well, 3e paladins got special gear in several campaigns because they were just a bad war cleric. At least 5e paladin has an identity.
Speaking of sorcerers 3e failed to give them a real niche besides being less suspectible to DM bullying (or permanent DM bullying targets if they lacked some key utility spells) so 5e gives them metamagic.
Yeah I know the actual options are pretty limited but still, the modification and development of spells is wizard flavor, it is wizards who have signature variants or spells named after them.
Man I hate this the most about meta magic for sorcerers. To me, it just felt like the ultimate mastery of a wizard, so adept at magic that they can shape spells to fit their desire. Now it's all sorcerers with vibes-based casting.
To me personally it feels like learning a new language. Wizards can master the academic English language, but it's sorcerers (Natives) who can whoop out phrases like "Well cover me in butter and call me Betsy" or shit.
Cause they were born with this ability and lived to master in their own natural way.
5e is genuinely a very mediocre system. 3.x has many, many flaws, biggest one being overcomplication and overabundance of choice, but 5e is okay at doing what it's supposed to (fantasy super heroes) at early levels, and it shits itself later on. But to be fair though, only 4th edition doesn't have a problem with balance at higher levels, but it becomes a huge slog after level 7.
5th edition is a lazy product, during over 10 years they couldn't be fucked with coming up with new system, everything is an advantage/disadvantage or xd6/xd8 extra damage on hit. 99% of monsters are walk up to a player and multiattack. And it's in a very awkward place where it's not rules light but also doesn't have a lot of depth. There are numerous other systems that do the same thing, but better.
I've only watched a few clips since I didn't watch anything past the first season. But I did see a character say that clerics can use dimension door. As if that was like, their defining trait.
Not only is it not what clerics do. They CAN'T use dimension door. And then later apparently you see that character walking through a physical door with another character. Also not what dimension door does. It's not a physical door, and it's a personal teleport. Not a portal.
Ackshually, the term "Sorcerer" appears as far back as the original 3 D&D booklets from 1974, but it was just a level title for the Magic-User class. Sorcerers were two levels below Wizards and could cast fewer spells but were otherwise the exact same class.
From memory (and note my memory might be wrong), Vecna's ascension to godhood occurred in the final 2e adventure as a kind of "Here's the finale of a whole bunch of storylines we've been building up to as we transition to the next edition"
I think if you got the power from making a deal with one, technically yes. But generally power from holy sources comes more in the form of results through belief like clerics or paladins.
Warlocks get their powers from patrons but those patrons aren't of a specific alignment. There can be good warlocks and evil clerics. It's a little convoluted but it's a different form of power bestowal. The same entity could have both clerics and warlocks in their name, for instance, but those followers would have access to different spell lists.
Yes, there’s several celestial themed kits but they’re definitely not as popular since warlock tends to attract a more edgy-background inclined crowd. The tension isn’t as readily apparently with a “good” patron
Also doesn't help that a lot of people tend to confuse "patron" with "deity" and think good patrons make clerics....even though there are evil deities.
Warlocks can be made from any magical pact. The pact is what makes them a warlock. Not divine favor or paladin oath.
This is the case in D&D 5E but the kids wouldn't have been playing 5E, they were playing the Expert Rulebook for D&D Basic. Warlock in D&D Basic is just a level of magic user. There's no "class" distinction between warlock, sorcerer, and wizard: they're all the same class ("magic user"), warlock is just level 6, "sorceror" [sic] is level 7, and wizard is level 9.
Every kid character in Stranger Things represents a DND character class. The two franchises started to align as both rose in popularity recently. It's no surprise that the 2025 Stranger Things characters align with 2025 DND rule books. Which is why we now have a Warlock with a patron and an Artificer.
I know a lot of people comment Eddie as the bard but Dustin is also a bard. The character he plays in the kids’ campaign is a bard and so is his class in the official ST D&D campaign kit.
it was sort of annoying hearing them be like "he's like a wizard?" "no, a sorcerer because his powers are innate" the whole time I was like "no, will is an intelligent character not a charismatic character, so you could have easily just accepted he was a wizard, and his powers are not innate, he got them from being a vassal of vecna and the mind flayer for so long. it's not really learned but it's power gained from an outside source which in my opinion fits closer to wizard AND his character is a wizard in D&D so why the heck are we forcing this sorcerer narrative?!" and than I sort of crashed out realizing I was being sort of a lame nerd about it.
Because in DND the main difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is how they got their powers. A sorcerer is just magical by nature and can do magic. A wizard learns their spells from books and learns spells by memorizing them, they are not magical themselves, they just learn magical practices and use magical objects. So this is why, and people here saying that he got his power like a warlock are actually making sense, cause a warlock have power just because a godlike entity grants them power, they are not magical on their own, and they do not learn magic, they have it from a pact with an entity.
His power is the actual ability to siphon powers through the Hive, similar to how Rogue from the X-Men is able to siphon life Force/powers with physical contact. Will learned how to utilize his powers purely through instinct, which means that they are innate.
Henry wasn't born with his powers. Its implied in the cave memory that what is in the case is the particles that gives him his powers, which is verified in the play "The First Shadow". He and the Russian with the case get sent to the Abyss, and he comes back with powers and kills his family.
If that's the case, Henry could still be considered a sorcerer if he was able to manifest his powers on his own while being exposed to the environment in the abyss. If he instead was granted his powers by the mindflayer or some other entity in the abyss, then he'd be more like a warlock or cleric.
Either way Will shouldn't be considered a sorcerer.
Nah this is the stuff I like seeing to agree with. It’s nice to know people’s brains go on the same journey as me.
The Charisma versus Intelligence thing was exactly what I was talking to a friend about. We came to the conclusion that so much is out the window that this is just what we have to accept.
Inaccurate, sorcerers did exist in 1e. Clearly, they were saying "You're a 9th level magic-user, not an 11+ level magic user" as that's what sorcerers and wizards were defined as back then /j
Maybe not true synonyms, but I've certainly seen them user interchangeably in media. Perhaps with Witch and Warlock being gendered terms for Wizards/Mages/Sorcerers and warlock perhaps being more of a derogatory variant implying demonic or dark dealings. But that's not set in stone.
Can you describe these vastly different meanings for these well defined, totally not made up, concepts? Preferably from sources that predate D&D's mainstream era - lets say 2015 so we can somewhat avoid it's influence.
literally, thank you. Warlocks require a pact, you don’t have to be born with sorcerer powers to be a sorcerer, they can get them via exposure to something later in life (like the far realms and shadowfell)
Yeah, 5e used it as the "default" D&D setting which hurt basically every other D&D setting aside from a very small few like the aforementioned Eberron. And Ravnica, I guess.
Dragonlance was originally created as a DnD sourcebook, so obviously it was influenced by DnD and not the other way around.
It did have some influence on DnD after the fact, though - like the idea that gnomes were inventors and not just smaller dwarves, and the idea of tying adventure modules into big novel-length books.
For the most part, though, everything in Dragonlance is straight out of DnD - the classes, the spells, the chromatic dragons vs the metallic dragons, etc.
In the OG DND book Vecna is mentioned. Though all is said is that he had a body guard.
A little more information came out in the early 80's about him.
So, while true there is little to no information at the time. There is enough of it for someone who is into the game to be inspired and make a homebrew around a setting, character, or of a blank space not yet filled. Which is common enough.
Makes Eddie a even better DM than I first thought.
It actually depends. What constitutes a sorcerer is their power being innate, not it's origin, take Divine Souls for an example, or Aberrant Minds. Although some sorcerers get their powers from birth, it is not the case to all. The deciding factor here would be if the power is now Will's permanently or if it's being borrowed. If Will is able to use it freely without Vecna's say on it, and even after vecna is depowered or killed, he's a sorcerer, the power is his. The opposite would be true if Will could only use his powers by Vecna's will and while he still has them, meaning the power is borrowed, making him a warlock.
Literally my exact thoughts!!! But then I looked into the current definition of sorcerer and they get their powers from "an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces"
Which I think Vecna can fall upon the comsic force being/thing.
Warlock is when you make a pact with mysterious beings which Will didn't really do... On purpose or consentually lol.
Definitely still up for debate which he is. Does a warlock always need to seek out/ask for powers from an otherworldly being to be legit? Think that's a game by game, DM by DM, decisions so.
Not sure if the definitions or classes have changed since when ST takes place but yeah narratively I so agree. He seems more warlock than sorcerer to me as well.
You can't "gain" sorcery though. You can have innate magic and discover it later. But it's very clear that will didn't have powers before being bestowed them.
You can gain sorcery. It's not always about who your grandparents were banging. Go read the flavour text of the aberrant mind sorcerer and it even poses the question if you were born with them sor gained them by encountering something beyond mortal understanding like an aboleth
He kinda is tho. That's literally the plot of the season 5, where he steals a bunch of vessels, infects them with power to then control them. It literally screams warlock patron. He's not "offering" it in a classic manner but he does grant it. You could argue that he's not the real patron and instead it's the whole manifestation of the upsidedown - the Mind Flayer. But then Will is still a Warlock, not a Sorcerer
Sorcerers have innate magic, just like it was said in the show. Will does not have that, he was given his powers, he was not born with them like El or Kali, they are sorcerers in this case.
His powers are inmate. You do not need to be born with power to be a sorcerer if you look at any of today's subclasses. The point is they are natural to him now because of an encounter not from a pact magic that is now gifted. And the children are just a phylactery
Absolutely not necessarily. Patron may bestow them powers just for lulz and their own entertainment without warlock even knowing that.
There might be cases when warlock and patron forms a link without both of them realizing that via some weird ritual, or if the ritual has another purpose but just went wrong for some reason. The latter fits Will perfectly. Hell, it can make a great character plot in DnD game.
So, although deliberate pact or deal is the most commonly known things for warlock to get their powers, there are many other much more interesting option with a lot of flavor.
I swear people have made up these definition differences… like when people harp on dragons vs wyverns and really you can’t trace back the origins so it’s just some nerd said and perpetuated that it’s the difference once and some other nerds have alternate definitions.. what is the point?
Not really. All a sorcerer is is someone with an innate power. That can be given. The best example of this is the aberrant mind sorcerer in 5e that can be made with one of the origins being that they were implanted with a mindflayer tadpole. A warlock would be if will made a pact or deal with vecna in exchange for these powers.
Why the heck did Vecna not kill Will here? And before someone says "He's in Vecna's mind," we know he can do this already, and Max was also afraid of Vecna killing her despite not being hooked up to his flesh wall.
The D&D stuff has always been a little wonky and mostly wrong. The writers either don’t really care since the D&D allusions are only in name or they just have a very basic understanding of D&D.
DnD lists, among other sources of power for a Sorcerer, and I quote, "the exposure to the strange magic of another plane of existance".
Will didn't study for his magic, he's not relying on complex rituals or his understanding of magic to access it, nor he pacted willing for it, his powers were forced onto him and Vecna's powers, or the Mindflayer from the upside down would fit very well in the "exposure of another plane" imo, or maybe under the gift of a dragon/dryad (as examples, a lich in Will's case)
More like a cleric, as (modern) warlocks require a willing pact with the power giver, while a cleric can appearantly just become a cleric of anyone without prior approval and use their power
Sorcerer still makes sense. Its not always bloodline it can just being exposed to that type of magic. In this case Will could be the first in a lineage of Upside Down powered sorcerers. Well apart from the obvious reason that might not happen.
Fun fact, wizards are INT based and sorcerers and warlocks are CHA based, while Will's character is named Will the Wise, referring to the WIS stat. Other than the classes of sorcerer and warlock not existing separately, this definitively proves that Will was a dumbass.
I haven't watched it yet, but my understanding is that warlock powers are given, sorcerers powers are acquired.
If Vecna gave the powers, then he should be able to take them away - thus a warlock. If Will acquired them, then and they are his to use and keep, then he's a sorcerer.
No.
Wizard > Study
Sorcerer > Inherited
Warlock > Made a Pact
Will being a Sorcerer is correct by current rules.
By AD&D rules, which would be the contemporary set for the time, Warlocks would be a subclass for Clerics and would have to be of evil alignment. Will is neither a Cleric nor of evil alignment.
By the same rules, a sorcerer would merely be a term used to describe a Wizard specialized in Summoning or Conjuration. Some campaign settings used the term for special kits they provided. But there would be no specific distinction between Wizard and Sorcerer like a difference in class.
He wouldn’t be a warlock because he didn’t make a contract with a patron deity. Vecna isn’t letting will borrow his powers, more like will is getting back door access or unlocking his potential, therefore being natural powers and making him a sorcerer
Yes, but given the timeframe this occurs in, the version of Warlock we're used to nowadays didn't exist. Warlocks and Witches were variants of Wizard that focused on particular spells rather than being their own class.
I'd argue they could've claimed he was an inadvertent cleric of Vecna (though Vecna wasn't even a demigod - which iirc happened in 2nd edition - when stranger things occurs. They're playing the OG version where Vecna is just a lich, so...)
Sorcerers also became a thing only in DnD 3.0, they didn't exist as class before then.
This is exactly the full on nerd conversations I come to Reddit for. Helps make the outside world go away for a minute.
I mean they made the caster roll a D20 when casting fireball, enemy didn't roll saving throw and they didn't even check the damage so they do seem to be home-brewing like crazy
Next thing you'll tell me those pesky paladins got the ability to smite
Well, 3e paladins got special gear in several campaigns because they were just a bad war cleric. At least 5e paladin has an identity.
Speaking of sorcerers 3e failed to give them a real niche besides being less suspectible to DM bullying (or permanent DM bullying targets if they lacked some key utility spells) so 5e gives them metamagic.
Yeah I know the actual options are pretty limited but still, the modification and development of spells is wizard flavor, it is wizards who have signature variants or spells named after them.
Man I hate this the most about meta magic for sorcerers. To me, it just felt like the ultimate mastery of a wizard, so adept at magic that they can shape spells to fit their desire. Now it's all sorcerers with vibes-based casting.
To me personally it feels like learning a new language. Wizards can master the academic English language, but it's sorcerers (Natives) who can whoop out phrases like "Well cover me in butter and call me Betsy" or shit. Cause they were born with this ability and lived to master in their own natural way.
In 3.5 every caster could use metamagic. I don't know why they limited it to sorcerers only in 5e
I only played 5, unfortunately. I guess every class needs his SPECIAL mechanic. Why bother with coming up with new stuff?
5e is genuinely a very mediocre system. 3.x has many, many flaws, biggest one being overcomplication and overabundance of choice, but 5e is okay at doing what it's supposed to (fantasy super heroes) at early levels, and it shits itself later on. But to be fair though, only 4th edition doesn't have a problem with balance at higher levels, but it becomes a huge slog after level 7.
5th edition is a lazy product, during over 10 years they couldn't be fucked with coming up with new system, everything is an advantage/disadvantage or xd6/xd8 extra damage on hit. 99% of monsters are walk up to a player and multiattack. And it's in a very awkward place where it's not rules light but also doesn't have a lot of depth. There are numerous other systems that do the same thing, but better.
I am building courage to try it eventually. Thanks for your opinion!
Nobody is born just "knowing" a language though..
Yeah but there is a difference between a native and a learner.
Which is why the kids in Stranger Things should actually be calling Will a psionicist.
Yes, the upside down is clearly connected to the dark sun setting (the other planet)
I've only watched a few clips since I didn't watch anything past the first season. But I did see a character say that clerics can use dimension door. As if that was like, their defining trait.
Not only is it not what clerics do. They CAN'T use dimension door. And then later apparently you see that character walking through a physical door with another character. Also not what dimension door does. It's not a physical door, and it's a personal teleport. Not a portal.
Ackshually, the term "Sorcerer" appears as far back as the original 3 D&D booklets from 1974, but it was just a level title for the Magic-User class. Sorcerers were two levels below Wizards and could cast fewer spells but were otherwise the exact same class.
Given the time this occurs the sorcerer didn't exist either.
From memory (and note my memory might be wrong), Vecna's ascension to godhood occurred in the final 2e adventure as a kind of "Here's the finale of a whole bunch of storylines we've been building up to as we transition to the next edition"
https://preview.redd.it/l4wqd1q793ag1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45fc1603113960ab7dead62e0667bdc030fba65c
Source:Sword coast adventures guide. A 5e book released in 2015 has no relevance for 1st edition of dnd
Warlocks are people who betrayed their covenant which is also funny how it's name has been mixed up as a dark magic user.
Huh?
In DnD a Warlock is just a magic user that draws their power from a magical entity.
A wizard uses magic by studying and learning spells from books.
A sorcerer is a magic user that has innate powers.
So Will is technically a warlock, not a sorcerer, as he draws his powers from Vecna.
Wait, are you still a warlock if your source of power is from an angelic being? All the warlocks I've seen have alway have demonic sources.
I think if you got the power from making a deal with one, technically yes. But generally power from holy sources comes more in the form of results through belief like clerics or paladins.
Paladins get their power from oaths
Warlocks get their powers from patrons but those patrons aren't of a specific alignment. There can be good warlocks and evil clerics. It's a little convoluted but it's a different form of power bestowal. The same entity could have both clerics and warlocks in their name, for instance, but those followers would have access to different spell lists.
Yes, there’s several celestial themed kits but they’re definitely not as popular since warlock tends to attract a more edgy-background inclined crowd. The tension isn’t as readily apparently with a “good” patron
Also doesn't help that a lot of people tend to confuse "patron" with "deity" and think good patrons make clerics....even though there are evil deities.
Warlocks can be made from any magical pact. The pact is what makes them a warlock. Not divine favor or paladin oath.
Going by the DnD 5e definition? Yeah, they even had a specific celestial subclass for warlock.
Yes. Warlocks can have power from multiple types of sources.
Warlocks are gifted their powers from a patron, they don't actually draw it from them.
Will is probably closer to a Cleric, that channels their power from a deity/higher being.
This is the case in D&D 5E but the kids wouldn't have been playing 5E, they were playing the Expert Rulebook for D&D Basic. Warlock in D&D Basic is just a level of magic user. There's no "class" distinction between warlock, sorcerer, and wizard: they're all the same class ("magic user"), warlock is just level 6, "sorceror" [sic] is level 7, and wizard is level 9.
Here's the rulebook they play by - https://www.americanroads.us/DandD/DnD_Expert_Rules_Cook.pdf - you can see the Magic User levels on page 8.
I think that's a whole different issue.
Everyone in the show uses terms like Wizard and Warlock as if they are the entire class.
Oh I'm talking about in general. Before DND warlock meant you were a traitor to your covenant and the people around you.
DND warlock took it and said it's a magical user who made a deal with a being to gain power...
Every kid character in Stranger Things represents a DND character class. The two franchises started to align as both rose in popularity recently. It's no surprise that the 2025 Stranger Things characters align with 2025 DND rule books. Which is why we now have a Warlock with a patron and an Artificer.
Who's the bard?
https://i.redd.it/qftnz5ram1ag1.gif
And it's not even close.
Master!
Master!
That song would have only been out a couple weeks at that point.
Meaning that our boy Eddie camped by the radio to record it, and then learned it by ear within a couple days.
And honestly, I don’t even think that’s unrealistic. I have met people who would absolutely do that.
Hitting record to cassette off the radio to cop a song to learn the words and butcher the notes for a while I was no stranger to back then.
You've done stranger things, I'm sure.
I mean for a metal head in 1986 master of puppets coming out would have been the biggest record in years
I do that
It checks out, the bard was easily killed.
5th edition bards are amazing, and I would be delighted to play one in anybody's game.
I don't know his name but he promised us all a full explanation as soon as Jarnathan gets here.
Jarnathan is coming, isn't he?
We are entirely capable of listening to an explanation without Jarnathan being here!
It’s just, i really feel like the explanation will resonate especially with Jarnathan…
I know a lot of people comment Eddie as the bard but Dustin is also a bard. The character he plays in the kids’ campaign is a bard and so is his class in the official ST D&D campaign kit.
I took Dustin to be the artificer
Yeah so would I, honestly. I guess he’s multiclassing?
They were bard bros
Bard Bros sounds like the D&D equivalent of Eskimo Cousins.
Steve
Steve is a paladin
I feel Steve is a fighter subclass champion.
Fighter-Man, Fighter-Man
Does whatever a Fighter-Man can
If it’s 1st edition, steve is a dwarf…lucas is an elf, so is nancy. Jonathan is a useless npc.
I’d say Robin tbh, will all that motivational/inspiring speeches towards Will
She is a gnome illusionist.
it was sort of annoying hearing them be like "he's like a wizard?" "no, a sorcerer because his powers are innate" the whole time I was like "no, will is an intelligent character not a charismatic character, so you could have easily just accepted he was a wizard, and his powers are not innate, he got them from being a vassal of vecna and the mind flayer for so long. it's not really learned but it's power gained from an outside source which in my opinion fits closer to wizard AND his character is a wizard in D&D so why the heck are we forcing this sorcerer narrative?!" and than I sort of crashed out realizing I was being sort of a lame nerd about it.
Because in DND the main difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is how they got their powers. A sorcerer is just magical by nature and can do magic. A wizard learns their spells from books and learns spells by memorizing them, they are not magical themselves, they just learn magical practices and use magical objects. So this is why, and people here saying that he got his power like a warlock are actually making sense, cause a warlock have power just because a godlike entity grants them power, they are not magical on their own, and they do not learn magic, they have it from a pact with an entity.
A wizard is a teacher's pet. A warlock is a sugar baby. A sorcerer is a nepo baby.
And a psionicist is a … coke baby?
Okay but DND sorcerers didn't exist in the 80s.
Also his powers aren’t even innate. It’s stated multiple times that he siphons them from Vecna though the hive, which is the opposite of innate.
His power is the actual ability to siphon powers through the Hive, similar to how Rogue from the X-Men is able to siphon life Force/powers with physical contact. Will learned how to utilize his powers purely through instinct, which means that they are innate.
But he only has that power because of his connection to Vecna. Once Vecna dies, so does Will's powers. That's not what would happen to a sorcerer.
Well, our world isn't magic. Are Wizards sorcerers because they can't cast spells without siphoning the weave?
Stranger Thing's world is though...
Henry was literally born with his powers. He's the sorcerer more than anyone in the show
Henry wasn't born with his powers. Its implied in the cave memory that what is in the case is the particles that gives him his powers, which is verified in the play "The First Shadow". He and the Russian with the case get sent to the Abyss, and he comes back with powers and kills his family.
Well that's one heck of a spoiler lol.
If that's the case, Henry could still be considered a sorcerer if he was able to manifest his powers on his own while being exposed to the environment in the abyss. If he instead was granted his powers by the mindflayer or some other entity in the abyss, then he'd be more like a warlock or cleric.
Either way Will shouldn't be considered a sorcerer.
Nah this is the stuff I like seeing to agree with. It’s nice to know people’s brains go on the same journey as me.
The Charisma versus Intelligence thing was exactly what I was talking to a friend about. We came to the conclusion that so much is out the window that this is just what we have to accept.
He is def not a cha char!
this irked me but since they play 1e I assumed it was different. Then I find out the sorcerer didn't exist back then and the glove comes off
Inaccurate, sorcerers did exist in 1e. Clearly, they were saying "You're a 9th level magic-user, not an 11+ level magic user" as that's what sorcerers and wizards were defined as back then /j
Wizard, Warlock, Sourcerers are all synonyms and can be used interchangeably depending on setting and outside of D&D anyway.
According to who? Because even outside of DnD, they all have vastly different meaning
Maybe not true synonyms, but I've certainly seen them user interchangeably in media. Perhaps with Witch and Warlock being gendered terms for Wizards/Mages/Sorcerers and warlock perhaps being more of a derogatory variant implying demonic or dark dealings. But that's not set in stone.
Can you describe these vastly different meanings for these well defined, totally not made up, concepts? Preferably from sources that predate D&D's mainstream era - lets say 2015 so we can somewhat avoid it's influence.
This is the kind of discussing that I want to see more about this show
saw a tiktok comment saying he'd technically be an aberrant mind sorcerer because he didn't consent/make a deal with Vecna to receive his powers
literally, thank you. Warlocks require a pact, you don’t have to be born with sorcerer powers to be a sorcerer, they can get them via exposure to something later in life (like the far realms and shadowfell)
pathfinder fixes this
also Vecna as a main villain in DND came in the 90's...
Vecna first appeared in 1976.
Yeah he was a Dragonlance character originally, wasn't he?
I think he was in Greyhawk first and later the Domains of Dread which is where Ravenloft takes place too.
Vecna and his arch-nemesis Kas are from Greyhawk.
Did dragonlance influence D&D or was it the other way around? Or a little bit of both?
It was one of the first D&D settings but later on when Vecna accrued all his power, he started hopping from universe to universe.
Greyhawk is another very old D&D setting that doesn't get much attention nowadays in favor of something like Faerûn (the Forgotten Realms) or Eberron.
I do get why it is mostly Faerun now, that is very ironic in hindsight.
Yeah, 5e used it as the "default" D&D setting which hurt basically every other D&D setting aside from a very small few like the aforementioned Eberron. And Ravnica, I guess.
Dragonlance was originally created as a DnD sourcebook, so obviously it was influenced by DnD and not the other way around.
It did have some influence on DnD after the fact, though - like the idea that gnomes were inventors and not just smaller dwarves, and the idea of tying adventure modules into big novel-length books.
For the most part, though, everything in Dragonlance is straight out of DnD - the classes, the spells, the chromatic dragons vs the metallic dragons, etc.
Dragonlance started in the mid-80s.
The Hand of Vecna and Eye of Vecna did but IIRC Vecna as a character wasn't fleshed out until later.
In the OG DND book Vecna is mentioned. Though all is said is that he had a body guard.
A little more information came out in the early 80's about him.
So, while true there is little to no information at the time. There is enough of it for someone who is into the game to be inspired and make a homebrew around a setting, character, or of a blank space not yet filled. Which is common enough.
Makes Eddie a even better DM than I first thought.
Looks like he's not fully fleshed out in the show either. Heyoooo! (Because he has no skin)
Or, Vecna fucked his mom.
Source: I play D&D and don't watch stranger things.
So Will is a bard. Got it.
Man, nobody gives a fuck about spoiling this show, eh? Kinda sucks for those of us watching it through for the first time
Man this sub is in a speedrun to spoil this season huh?
Warlock requires an agreement/pact, a close encounter with a magical entity giving you powers is in line with Sorcerers
Okay NERD.
It actually depends. What constitutes a sorcerer is their power being innate, not it's origin, take Divine Souls for an example, or Aberrant Minds. Although some sorcerers get their powers from birth, it is not the case to all. The deciding factor here would be if the power is now Will's permanently or if it's being borrowed. If Will is able to use it freely without Vecna's say on it, and even after vecna is depowered or killed, he's a sorcerer, the power is his. The opposite would be true if Will could only use his powers by Vecna's will and while he still has them, meaning the power is borrowed, making him a warlock.
Literally my exact thoughts!!! But then I looked into the current definition of sorcerer and they get their powers from "an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces" Which I think Vecna can fall upon the comsic force being/thing.
Warlock is when you make a pact with mysterious beings which Will didn't really do... On purpose or consentually lol.
Definitely still up for debate which he is. Does a warlock always need to seek out/ask for powers from an otherworldly being to be legit? Think that's a game by game, DM by DM, decisions so.
Not sure if the definitions or classes have changed since when ST takes place but yeah narratively I so agree. He seems more warlock than sorcerer to me as well.
Dude is literally an abberant mind sorcerer. Vecna is not a patron offering power. So tired of these nerd fights
You can't "gain" sorcery though. You can have innate magic and discover it later. But it's very clear that will didn't have powers before being bestowed them.
I'll argue he's actually a domain cleric.
You can gain sorcery. It's not always about who your grandparents were banging. Go read the flavour text of the aberrant mind sorcerer and it even poses the question if you were born with them sor gained them by encountering something beyond mortal understanding like an aboleth
He kinda is tho. That's literally the plot of the season 5, where he steals a bunch of vessels, infects them with power to then control them. It literally screams warlock patron. He's not "offering" it in a classic manner but he does grant it. You could argue that he's not the real patron and instead it's the whole manifestation of the upsidedown - the Mind Flayer. But then Will is still a Warlock, not a Sorcerer
It's literally the flavour text of the abberant mind
Sorcerers have innate magic, just like it was said in the show. Will does not have that, he was given his powers, he was not born with them like El or Kali, they are sorcerers in this case.
His powers are inmate. You do not need to be born with power to be a sorcerer if you look at any of today's subclasses. The point is they are natural to him now because of an encounter not from a pact magic that is now gifted. And the children are just a phylactery
Maybe before the incursion
Will has powers? Wtf why post spoilers
[removed]
But Will's powers aren't innate. He draws them from Vecna.
I would call that a Warlock, but instead of a pact, it is physical proximity to the Hive Mind that enables him.
If he breaks that proximity, just like a pact, he is powerless.
Absolutely not necessarily. Patron may bestow them powers just for lulz and their own entertainment without warlock even knowing that.
There might be cases when warlock and patron forms a link without both of them realizing that via some weird ritual, or if the ritual has another purpose but just went wrong for some reason. The latter fits Will perfectly. Hell, it can make a great character plot in DnD game.
So, although deliberate pact or deal is the most commonly known things for warlock to get their powers, there are many other much more interesting option with a lot of flavor.
Great point actually shit
Wyll agrees
I HAVE BEEN YELLING THIS AT THE TV SINCE IT FORST CAME UP!!!
I swear people have made up these definition differences… like when people harp on dragons vs wyverns and really you can’t trace back the origins so it’s just some nerd said and perpetuated that it’s the difference once and some other nerds have alternate definitions.. what is the point?
They say that in the show.
If Will is a Warlock, where is his pet demon? Duh?
THANK YOU
Not really. All a sorcerer is is someone with an innate power. That can be given. The best example of this is the aberrant mind sorcerer in 5e that can be made with one of the origins being that they were implanted with a mindflayer tadpole. A warlock would be if will made a pact or deal with vecna in exchange for these powers.
Why the heck did Vecna not kill Will here? And before someone says "He's in Vecna's mind," we know he can do this already, and Max was also afraid of Vecna killing her despite not being hooked up to his flesh wall.
The D&D stuff has always been a little wonky and mostly wrong. The writers either don’t really care since the D&D allusions are only in name or they just have a very basic understanding of D&D.
Isn’t a very important part of being a Warlock the Pact you make? There is no Pact here.
DnD lists, among other sources of power for a Sorcerer, and I quote, "the exposure to the strange magic of another plane of existance".
Will didn't study for his magic, he's not relying on complex rituals or his understanding of magic to access it, nor he pacted willing for it, his powers were forced onto him and Vecna's powers, or the Mindflayer from the upside down would fit very well in the "exposure of another plane" imo, or maybe under the gift of a dragon/dryad (as examples, a lich in Will's case)
More like a cleric, as (modern) warlocks require a willing pact with the power giver, while a cleric can appearantly just become a cleric of anyone without prior approval and use their power
yeah but the people who called him scorcerer don't know that.
Sorcerer still makes sense. Its not always bloodline it can just being exposed to that type of magic. In this case Will could be the first in a lineage of Upside Down powered sorcerers. Well apart from the obvious reason that might not happen.
Fun fact, wizards are INT based and sorcerers and warlocks are CHA based, while Will's character is named Will the Wise, referring to the WIS stat. Other than the classes of sorcerer and warlock not existing separately, this definitively proves that Will was a dumbass.
Dora isn't an explorer, because she travels exclusively through mapped areas. Dora is a tourist.
I haven't watched it yet, but my understanding is that warlock powers are given, sorcerers powers are acquired.
If Vecna gave the powers, then he should be able to take them away - thus a warlock. If Will acquired them, then and they are his to use and keep, then he's a sorcerer.
That’s what I was thinking as well. Arent sorcerers’ powers hereditary?
I said this in a recent post and reddit issued me a warning for harassment (not joking)
Don't worry, they'll retcon this, too, while wasting precious screen time with filler scenes and exposition dumps
No. Wizard > Study Sorcerer > Inherited Warlock > Made a Pact
Will being a Sorcerer is correct by current rules.
By AD&D rules, which would be the contemporary set for the time, Warlocks would be a subclass for Clerics and would have to be of evil alignment. Will is neither a Cleric nor of evil alignment. By the same rules, a sorcerer would merely be a term used to describe a Wizard specialized in Summoning or Conjuration. Some campaign settings used the term for special kits they provided. But there would be no specific distinction between Wizard and Sorcerer like a difference in class.
He wouldn’t be a warlock because he didn’t make a contract with a patron deity. Vecna isn’t letting will borrow his powers, more like will is getting back door access or unlocking his potential, therefore being natural powers and making him a sorcerer
SPOILER!
Thank you for spoiling something in a series I refuse to watch until the finale drops. Fuck me, right?
Will doesn't have powers. 11 has powers.
Please watch the show next time😭🙏
I did. I watched until the mall episode with the guy from the princess Bride.
You really leaned into this sub by not watching the show and correcting people huh