Thats why it is super essential to mobilize everybody to get things done with others. Especially with those already doing. The more of us doing, the more we all win, and stronger we all become! Power to the People!! 99% vs 1%
If only I could convince the boomers in my life to get off Meta.... feels like I might break a fuse in their brain and end it early by trying to teach them about the alternatives
I got my boomer parents off facebook. I made a discord server for the family, invited everyone, helped my parents install the app and change notification settings, then I showed them how to use it.
Yes discord doesn't respect privacy either, but I still consider it progress because my parents (who are ~70) finally got off facebook.
Point is this: if your built it, they will come. Show the people in your life what the alternative is. Most people don't even realize there are alternatives, and that's not their fault. Be patient and teach them.
this is still quite pessimistic tho don’t you think?
Words and phrases like “as long as possible” and “still” (in the case of OP) suggest that there’s running from it all but that the tsunami swallows all of us whole anyway sooner or later.
And while that is a disastrous situation by itself, why do even people in this sub slowly fold and assume that nothing can be done (except holding on)? This is simply not true, at least not entirely.
The answer no one wants to hear is that many people (all would be great, many is good but even a few does it) simply need to abandon tech andcities. But God, very few people want to hear that the answer is in total abandonment of all these disruptors. I find it motivating that this sub offers so many work arounds about current issues but the central issue doesn’t go away. Living with and living somewhere where devices and camera look at you and listen to you all the time.
Enough places in the world where no one spies on anyone because no option for spying even exists in the first place. But those places are not in cities. There’s no internet or tech involved in actual privacy. This is an unfortunate truth as the nature of tech and the internet simply works that way (there’s miraculous heroes out there building their own phones but no average joe can do that).
But just somehow.. the conclusion always is “shit, i don’t wanna live in a boring village/middle of nowhere, i don’t wanna abandon the technology that i’ve grown to love so much, i don’t wanna get rid of my (insert any modern device).. blah blah blah” where the ultimate result is that people whine about the circumstances but do nothing of value against it anyway.
There’s nothing i hate more about humanity than useless fucking whining (now this has nothing to do with your reply btw). The world needs some serious healing but people reject the opportunities for that again and again.
Now not every person can move to a remote village and be a vegetable farmer but there are options that do something real anyway. Not temporarily, but actually.
Too many people still buy and use crap that helps some of those evil billionaires stay in power. If there’s one thing those people would really hate it’s not yet another useless attempt at a work around (they will use their indeed endless resources to penetrate any bubble of privacy and freedom). IT’S RESTRAINT. Not trying to find an alternative that can be corrupted anyway, but just opting out. Fuck the fucking chat control. Fuck those certain companies that support and enable that shit. Even if someone doesn’t want to do something on one end they can do something somewhere else. People need to go through their lives and pick out only the essentials that make them happy and boycott everything else.
But wait? No.. I can’t actually boycott (any evil company) because i still have the feeling that i need/want their product from time to time.. huh. Guess I’ll be a sheep instead.
A lot of people think that their efforts will be in vain because they are only one singular person but the average company wants to keep EVERY person as a customer/user. So every person that can restrain themselves is a success for us. Essentialism is one of the only cures left. And if there’s any chance to do something or get out then i encourage everyone to do so, even if it has to be a several year long project.
I’m thinking of the world of cyberpunk 2077 all the time where people simply said yes to a lot of shit over the years to the point where their own bodies can be manipulated into su*cide. All in the name of convenience and “innovation” of course. A lot of us will experience 2077. Do we really want it to be a dystopian hellscape where 99 percent of animals are extinct, retirement doesn’t exist at all, big corpos get to hack your brain and advertisements in your own apartment? Think again. At least i don’t wanna leave a world behind where monks, cats and plants are 1 in a million unicorn sightings.
“Still”, “holding on” and “as long as possible” implies that we have already lost but so far that simply isn’t the case yet. If a level 999 boss awaits you but your character maxes out at 99, any attack is useless. The only solution is to walk out of the battle arena entirely
Well said. I’m not there, but your words are right. We have to abandon it. If anything, I’m afraid to remember how to live without all these convenient e-commerce vampires every minute of the day…but ffs, the facial recognition requirements, the physical and digital undressing and examination now forced on anyone who crosses a border or crosses into a Jeff Bezos supermarket. It was “your account requires a phone number” yesterday. And if we don’t unplug soon, they’re going to vacuum up everything else until you owe them your life.
I feel like this is the only real answer. Unfortunate realities are unfortunate realities. At this point, we’ve let the powers that be use technology to subjugate us, instead of us using technology to liberate ourselves. As of current, it feels people are more willing to allow the digital Stasi to exist. I do think this also parallels with current attitudes, how media shapes those perceptions, and the current realities that exist. I used to be excited for every advancement made, but then it lead to the acceleration of the deployment of mass surveillance (to Minority Report and 1984 levels), and then things soured permanently for me to where it felt like betrayal. This may have started even earlier since panics HAVE been used to advance things that erode the very liberties we once enjoyed.
We can hope it shifts, but old attitudes fall HARD, unless something erodes them. It has been known time and time again that powers granted by laws like the PATRIOT Act and lawful access get abused on a regular basis, but the powers that be would rather scare people away from sunsetting it. The 14 Eyes are proof of this progressive backslide into mass surveillance. I do want to hold out and dream for the post-surveillance era, but I’m just burnt out from all the bad news. While there might be a period that usually follows after a larger cataclysmic event, I don’t know when that will be and I pray to whatever higher power out there exists that people start realizing what is actually happening.
EDIT: apparently there is increasing research, backing that increasing the level and persuasiveness of surveillance is actually destructive to not only social norms, but also to personal mental health as well. So there are a lot of negatives to it that hurt people. There is a term that needs to be addressed called surveillance anxiety, and yes, it’s a real thing.
It's funny to me, listening to people online whining about evil corporations and how the left/right is taking over the corporate and government space and molding everything into a world they don't want to live in.
It isn't technology and political parties doing this. It is the individual who chooses to focus on national and international politics instead of improving their local area. Spend time at the soup kitchen feeding your homeless population, volunteer to clean up the park, advocate for your local government to make positive changes, start a charity in your local area, shop at local businesses, keep your money, charity, and focus on your community.
I think there is a spot for big corporations and a national government, but it doesn't need to be in our daily lives.
People need to go through their lives and pick out only the essentials that make them happy and boycott everything else.
You make a great point here that I think is often forgotten. I've worked in tech for over 30 years (dev, sysadmin, network admin, etc.) and just want to reiterate: it didn't have to be this way. The way the industry has gone has almost nothing to do with "innovation" except for innovating new ways to abuse their customers. The best answer really is to Just Say No. No cloud, no "services", no Meta, Apple, MS, Amazon, Spotify, smart phones, smart appliances, stupid apps, etc. Maybe we can't make a difference, but if nobody tries to starve the beast, it'll just get bigger and even more powerful.
I've gone down the rabbit hole trying to combat things in the technical arena (filters, VPN, TOR, browser plugins, anonymizing proxies, etc.) but it's insanely difficult for the average person to even understand and still a very long way from being 100% effective. Opting out likewise doesn't fix everything but it really is the easiest and safest approach available.
One area where I somewhat disagree with you is around the idea of moving to a rural location. I'm there. I can walk out my back door for more than 10 miles in the woods before I hit another road and can attest that it's not going to get you out of this mess. Perhaps you can still buy yourself a little bit less surveillance, but you'd really need to go into the reclusive hermit lifestyle to make it absolute. The nearest town still can have traffic cameras, the grocery stores still try to track you with loyalty points, the banks still report your transactions to the government, all the utilities are on-line and record your usage/behavior, people still install Ring cameras on their front porch, and more. Besides, people living in urban areas shouldn't have to give up their rights just to live there (although it is a bit more difficult).
I could literally write book on all the things wrong with the current tech. industry relative to human decency and the environment, just from my experiences. It's a shameful mess. Opt out. Do as much off-line as possible. Use E2EE wherever possible. Don't give money to the multi-headed tech. beast. Resist in whatever ways you can, small or large. The battle is not futile, but it's definitely going to be hard and very inconvenient.
Timothy Leary's "Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out" still fits in principle for mind, but now needs to be combined with Shut down, Block Out, and Hide for body.
It saddens me that sheep has become the term for people who accept evil. Some of the earliest use of calling people sheep was Jesus talking about his followers. Saying that, much as a herd knows the voice of their shepherd, and so do not follow thieves who come in the night, his followers know him and are not taken in by evil. It’s literally the opposite of what it means now: people who blindly accept anything and everything from those thieves in the night.
Sheep is used not in the context of a flock of sometimes positive and smart energy but in the context of a massive group blindly following anything good or bad without question.
i guess the word "sheep" back then was just an unfortunate choice of wording, as sheep, as adorable as they are, have conformity as their default behavior, and no real sense of individual curiosity or willpower. Maybe it is also a translation error.
Disciple is a much better word, as the followers had distinct personalities and traits while a sheep is a mostly empty canvas with no personal actions.
So basically sheep is exactly the right word for dumb ignorant people, and in the context of today’s world i guess it is definitely meant as an insult, because those humans could evolve into something better but refuse or fail. No one’s actually insulting the real sheep as those are not at fault for what they are. But humans choose to be or become sheep
The same survailance intrusions are coming to Switzerland. It's just that they call it something slightly different, to pretend they don't follow the EU.
In the end, they all want to have the same total control like in China.
possibly not, and if it does anyway, expect a people's initiative. Just hit with some conspiracy theory slogans about total control and you will get the right wing conspiracy theorists in addition to the usual libleft/center
This is where the fight is now, about the encryption. It's because governments have already addressed the surveillance side and obviously have little issue with it. It shows that what they are stuck on today, is the encryption. There lies our fight for freedom across all countries.
Both of which are 14 eyes countries. In fact the German BND and American CIA ran a cryptography firm called Crypto AG together out of Switzerland from the 1970's until around 2009. They sold back-doored cryptography machines that were independently reviewed and trusted because it was a Swiss company.
This isn't against Proton, they appear to offer a good service and are moving to avoid a forced backdoor. It's just a statement on the location pretty much being irrelevant today regarding surveillance in general. The focus should remain on encryption. Escaping a jurisdiction that wants to backdoor encryption is an entirely different situation vs "We are moving to a more private country"
Switzerland attracts surveillance because of that reputation. China has run VPN services out of it and SIngapore, claiming the jurisdictions protected users while funneling data back to them. The CIA and German BND also ran a cryptography firm out of Switzerland for over 30 years selling back-doored encryption machines. Those on both sides of the issue like Switzerland because they want to capitalize on it's reputation. The problem is, it's no longer the Switzerland of 30 years ago.
There is no place on earth that is safe, regardless of their local law. In fact, the impression of privacy invites external state actors to set up shop inside that country to capitalize on that belief. This has been the case for Switzerland time and time again, most famously with Crypto AG.
Not sure to be honest. Norway appears on more lists for good data privacy laws over Austria. But end of the day need a lawyer to actually compare the laws of the two countries and tell you.
This one is close, except for their relationship with India, which is part of other agreements, and proximity to China, it's one of the few without formalized agreements. However, they are still subject to the IDX taps.
Whoops! While there are anecdotes about the struggles of being a woman there, it is 100% not the country I was thinking of, where the government is openly hostile to women. I was wrong.
Bahrain, now THAT's a country I wouldn't want to live in as a woman.
That's off base, we've been around for over 25 years and that article has nothing to do with the service. There is no one service that can protect from it. Rather, it is a detailed dive into the true state of global surveillance. I do feel that this angers those who sell services with location as their main selling point, but it wasn't designed for that either. However, what I should have done is post the link to a previous forum post rather than post the url again. I can see how that doesn't look good to people who have seen it before.
Define what “caring” means in this context. It encompasses a range of different solutions/practices/laws. There is no ideal pirate bay where everything would be perfect at the same time. You can explore certain aspects that are important to you and make a choice based on that.
Implementing laws that protect user privacy would be caring more about the privacy of their people, implementing requirements for facial ID to get a mobile phone would be more malicious. I guess neutral would be a country that ignores the whole thing and leaves it to the people to figure it out themselves
I remember the EU was hailed as a bastion of user privacy before they decided to cave into more invasive practices
EU was never 'bastion of user privacy'. The legislation was always only aimed at how private corporations handle their customers' data and there the objective was more to be the in position of control rather then protecting information.
But the 'invasive practices' far predate that and even EU itself. European states and EU was always collecting ton of data, for intelligence and law enforcement purposes but also for purpose of managing it's populations.
I would argue that some of the regulatory decisions (the cookie mandates) are actually substantially responsible - through unintended consequences - for the horrific situation we have now.
Ah, yes, these well meaning politicians just wanted the best for us, God bless their souls, but the dastardly WEF lobbyists are keeping them away from God’s light for last 40 years.
And that's because we* do 90% of stuff on paper and communication is still done via fax :)))) (we don't have a fax at home since 2020 tho, but we still have the line)
I had to go to city hall a couple of years ago and I was shocked of the amount of paper, stuff I had to stamp (with the correct stamp lol, God forbid you have the wrong hanko). So far my general bank phased out the ATM passbook at least! What an achievement haha.
And there's no such thing like electronic invoices, they come in little papers that have the payment details too (similar to cheques, but more as a wire order)
(*Grew up there, family still there, moved in Europe tho for better pay lol)
Japan is part of the Japan-India-Australia trilateral intelligence sharing agreement, which was formalized in 2021. Australia is part of 5 eyes. India has bilateral agreements for sigint with the US and others.
They're not really authoritarian, it's more a high degree of personal responsibility so it feels that way. Implied by society rather than forced by the government.
Morocco has their own intensive surveillance through the DGST, DGSN, and DGED. In addition, there have been more than a few reports of Moroccan authorities deploying Pegasus. They also signed the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters in 1983, an MLAT with the US and other 14 eyes countries.
Okay, but I'm comparing with, let's say Russia, cause I'm Russian.
I can use any app for chatting I want here ( signal),
I can watch content I want,
No one is pushing me to put some 'native' messenger app to my phone which will spy on me.
New cars don't have Sim cards and SOS signal, when basically your location is being tracked all the time.
Very, very limited amount of cameras outside.
A lot of people using cash and it's normal here.
I'm just an average person, but I clearly see how less it's here than in my country, let's say.
Additionally, the Russian-led Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) has implemented shared surveillance systems across member states, with technical centers in Moscow coordinating operations across Central Asia. This includes standardized monitoring equipment at internet exchange points and shared access to telecommunications monitoring systems.
Edit: Sorry, misunderstood the post at first.
It is definitely less in Morocco, but not none. The problem is that pretty much all governments are doing it in one form or another and those that aren't end up tapped anyway at the IDX. On a global level, it is not possible to escape a state actor just by going to another country.
Well, what about phones coming through 'black import "? Like apple and pixel, officially not sold in Russia. Anyways, it's always possible to buy obine abroad and not put this spy inside of your phone..
Phones are spies all by themselves. It's the installed apps and SDKs collecting data, including location data, and selling it to governments who are using this data for historical and current location tracking. It goes all the way down to sim manufacturers. Also, the telecom services, themselves, in pretty much every country, also provide access to their networks in one form or another for government requests.
So you will never install a single app on it? These are app store apps and games, including VPN apps, that collect this data and sell it, regardless whether or not it is a black market device.
I have two phones, pixel with different OS on it, all my main apps are there.
The second phone is iPhone, with minimum apps. I do realize that my threat model is pretty avarage, however when it comes to such obvious Spyware as 'max', I won't put it on my phone, same as I don't have meta.
Chances are an app on your iPhone is tracking you. Even games like Candy Crush do. Dating apps. Weather apps. Religious apps. Health apps. Etc. For a little more detail on how they do and how the flow of this data leads to governments:
Governments only care about what they are legally forced to care about in terms of (respecting) privacy, and even then, it's complicated.
Countries' stances on privacy vary widely and it really only makes sense to have a discussion about it in the context of liberal democracies, for obvious reasons.
I was gonna go off but honestly it's a pita to try to dissect in 140 words or less.
Short answer is, no. How privacy evolves in theory comes down to the ppl running the show, and when it comes to governments, that is supposed to represent the voice of the ppl, whom elect said representatives.
But we all know the not insignificant caveats and yes, buts, that must be attached to any discussion of this sort of thing.
Right now data is profit (or a way to stimulate higher profits), therefore any and all data will be collected omitting any notions of rights to privacy.
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North Korea
To the point they don't let you own any device that would harm your privacy.
Jokes aside, this ia a battle against a very evil dystopia Black Mirror level goliath with endless resources.
We won't win in the end, but the goal is to hold on for as long as possible.
Politically, 95% of the population are plain cattle and sheep (no insult meant towards those beautiful beings).
none taken, i am a proud informed sheep
Beeeee
Thats why it is super essential to mobilize everybody to get things done with others. Especially with those already doing. The more of us doing, the more we all win, and stronger we all become! Power to the People!! 99% vs 1%
If only I could convince the boomers in my life to get off Meta.... feels like I might break a fuse in their brain and end it early by trying to teach them about the alternatives
I got my boomer parents off facebook. I made a discord server for the family, invited everyone, helped my parents install the app and change notification settings, then I showed them how to use it.
Yes discord doesn't respect privacy either, but I still consider it progress because my parents (who are ~70) finally got off facebook.
Point is this: if your built it, they will come. Show the people in your life what the alternative is. Most people don't even realize there are alternatives, and that's not their fault. Be patient and teach them.
this is still quite pessimistic tho don’t you think?
Words and phrases like “as long as possible” and “still” (in the case of OP) suggest that there’s running from it all but that the tsunami swallows all of us whole anyway sooner or later.
And while that is a disastrous situation by itself, why do even people in this sub slowly fold and assume that nothing can be done (except holding on)? This is simply not true, at least not entirely.
The answer no one wants to hear is that many people (all would be great, many is good but even a few does it) simply need to abandon tech and cities. But God, very few people want to hear that the answer is in total abandonment of all these disruptors. I find it motivating that this sub offers so many work arounds about current issues but the central issue doesn’t go away. Living with and living somewhere where devices and camera look at you and listen to you all the time.
Enough places in the world where no one spies on anyone because no option for spying even exists in the first place. But those places are not in cities. There’s no internet or tech involved in actual privacy. This is an unfortunate truth as the nature of tech and the internet simply works that way (there’s miraculous heroes out there building their own phones but no average joe can do that).
But just somehow.. the conclusion always is “shit, i don’t wanna live in a boring village/middle of nowhere, i don’t wanna abandon the technology that i’ve grown to love so much, i don’t wanna get rid of my (insert any modern device).. blah blah blah” where the ultimate result is that people whine about the circumstances but do nothing of value against it anyway.
There’s nothing i hate more about humanity than useless fucking whining (now this has nothing to do with your reply btw). The world needs some serious healing but people reject the opportunities for that again and again.
Now not every person can move to a remote village and be a vegetable farmer but there are options that do something real anyway. Not temporarily, but actually.
Too many people still buy and use crap that helps some of those evil billionaires stay in power. If there’s one thing those people would really hate it’s not yet another useless attempt at a work around (they will use their indeed endless resources to penetrate any bubble of privacy and freedom). IT’S RESTRAINT. Not trying to find an alternative that can be corrupted anyway, but just opting out. Fuck the fucking chat control. Fuck those certain companies that support and enable that shit. Even if someone doesn’t want to do something on one end they can do something somewhere else. People need to go through their lives and pick out only the essentials that make them happy and boycott everything else.
But wait? No.. I can’t actually boycott (any evil company) because i still have the feeling that i need/want their product from time to time.. huh. Guess I’ll be a sheep instead.
A lot of people think that their efforts will be in vain because they are only one singular person but the average company wants to keep EVERY person as a customer/user. So every person that can restrain themselves is a success for us. Essentialism is one of the only cures left. And if there’s any chance to do something or get out then i encourage everyone to do so, even if it has to be a several year long project.
I’m thinking of the world of cyberpunk 2077 all the time where people simply said yes to a lot of shit over the years to the point where their own bodies can be manipulated into su*cide. All in the name of convenience and “innovation” of course. A lot of us will experience 2077. Do we really want it to be a dystopian hellscape where 99 percent of animals are extinct, retirement doesn’t exist at all, big corpos get to hack your brain and advertisements in your own apartment? Think again. At least i don’t wanna leave a world behind where monks, cats and plants are 1 in a million unicorn sightings.
“Still”, “holding on” and “as long as possible” implies that we have already lost but so far that simply isn’t the case yet. If a level 999 boss awaits you but your character maxes out at 99, any attack is useless. The only solution is to walk out of the battle arena entirely
Well said. I’m not there, but your words are right. We have to abandon it. If anything, I’m afraid to remember how to live without all these convenient e-commerce vampires every minute of the day…but ffs, the facial recognition requirements, the physical and digital undressing and examination now forced on anyone who crosses a border or crosses into a Jeff Bezos supermarket. It was “your account requires a phone number” yesterday. And if we don’t unplug soon, they’re going to vacuum up everything else until you owe them your life.
I feel like this is the only real answer. Unfortunate realities are unfortunate realities. At this point, we’ve let the powers that be use technology to subjugate us, instead of us using technology to liberate ourselves. As of current, it feels people are more willing to allow the digital Stasi to exist. I do think this also parallels with current attitudes, how media shapes those perceptions, and the current realities that exist. I used to be excited for every advancement made, but then it lead to the acceleration of the deployment of mass surveillance (to Minority Report and 1984 levels), and then things soured permanently for me to where it felt like betrayal. This may have started even earlier since panics HAVE been used to advance things that erode the very liberties we once enjoyed.
We can hope it shifts, but old attitudes fall HARD, unless something erodes them. It has been known time and time again that powers granted by laws like the PATRIOT Act and lawful access get abused on a regular basis, but the powers that be would rather scare people away from sunsetting it. The 14 Eyes are proof of this progressive backslide into mass surveillance. I do want to hold out and dream for the post-surveillance era, but I’m just burnt out from all the bad news. While there might be a period that usually follows after a larger cataclysmic event, I don’t know when that will be and I pray to whatever higher power out there exists that people start realizing what is actually happening.
EDIT: apparently there is increasing research, backing that increasing the level and persuasiveness of surveillance is actually destructive to not only social norms, but also to personal mental health as well. So there are a lot of negatives to it that hurt people. There is a term that needs to be addressed called surveillance anxiety, and yes, it’s a real thing.
I agree with your thoughts.
It's funny to me, listening to people online whining about evil corporations and how the left/right is taking over the corporate and government space and molding everything into a world they don't want to live in.
It isn't technology and political parties doing this. It is the individual who chooses to focus on national and international politics instead of improving their local area. Spend time at the soup kitchen feeding your homeless population, volunteer to clean up the park, advocate for your local government to make positive changes, start a charity in your local area, shop at local businesses, keep your money, charity, and focus on your community.
I think there is a spot for big corporations and a national government, but it doesn't need to be in our daily lives.
You make a great point here that I think is often forgotten. I've worked in tech for over 30 years (dev, sysadmin, network admin, etc.) and just want to reiterate: it didn't have to be this way. The way the industry has gone has almost nothing to do with "innovation" except for innovating new ways to abuse their customers. The best answer really is to Just Say No. No cloud, no "services", no Meta, Apple, MS, Amazon, Spotify, smart phones, smart appliances, stupid apps, etc. Maybe we can't make a difference, but if nobody tries to starve the beast, it'll just get bigger and even more powerful.
I've gone down the rabbit hole trying to combat things in the technical arena (filters, VPN, TOR, browser plugins, anonymizing proxies, etc.) but it's insanely difficult for the average person to even understand and still a very long way from being 100% effective. Opting out likewise doesn't fix everything but it really is the easiest and safest approach available.
One area where I somewhat disagree with you is around the idea of moving to a rural location. I'm there. I can walk out my back door for more than 10 miles in the woods before I hit another road and can attest that it's not going to get you out of this mess. Perhaps you can still buy yourself a little bit less surveillance, but you'd really need to go into the reclusive hermit lifestyle to make it absolute. The nearest town still can have traffic cameras, the grocery stores still try to track you with loyalty points, the banks still report your transactions to the government, all the utilities are on-line and record your usage/behavior, people still install Ring cameras on their front porch, and more. Besides, people living in urban areas shouldn't have to give up their rights just to live there (although it is a bit more difficult).
I could literally write book on all the things wrong with the current tech. industry relative to human decency and the environment, just from my experiences. It's a shameful mess. Opt out. Do as much off-line as possible. Use E2EE wherever possible. Don't give money to the multi-headed tech. beast. Resist in whatever ways you can, small or large. The battle is not futile, but it's definitely going to be hard and very inconvenient.
Timothy Leary's "Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out" still fits in principle for mind, but now needs to be combined with Shut down, Block Out, and Hide for body.
You trying to hit a word count or something?
lol. I just find it easy to write a lot. Sorry if you find it annoying
All good
There's nothing wrong with expressing a thought more thoroughly. If it takes a few paragraphs, so be it.
Let add a bit of sult 🧂🧂🧂
I only see wolve amongst sheep.
It saddens me that sheep has become the term for people who accept evil. Some of the earliest use of calling people sheep was Jesus talking about his followers. Saying that, much as a herd knows the voice of their shepherd, and so do not follow thieves who come in the night, his followers know him and are not taken in by evil. It’s literally the opposite of what it means now: people who blindly accept anything and everything from those thieves in the night.
Sheep is used not in the context of a flock of sometimes positive and smart energy but in the context of a massive group blindly following anything good or bad without question.
They're all being led into the wolves den.
i guess the word "sheep" back then was just an unfortunate choice of wording, as sheep, as adorable as they are, have conformity as their default behavior, and no real sense of individual curiosity or willpower. Maybe it is also a translation error.
Disciple is a much better word, as the followers had distinct personalities and traits while a sheep is a mostly empty canvas with no personal actions.
So basically sheep is exactly the right word for dumb ignorant people, and in the context of today’s world i guess it is definitely meant as an insult, because those humans could evolve into something better but refuse or fail. No one’s actually insulting the real sheep as those are not at fault for what they are. But humans choose to be or become sheep
Iceland, Romania, Greece and Switzerland (for now) have good data privacy laws.
I was wondering about Switzerland, since alot of privacy centered tech companies are based there
The same survailance intrusions are coming to Switzerland. It's just that they call it something slightly different, to pretend they don't follow the EU.
In the end, they all want to have the same total control like in China.
https://www.swico.ch/de/news/detail/das-parlament-will-die-vupf-uberarbeiten
possibly not, and if it does anyway, expect a people's initiative. Just hit with some conspiracy theory slogans about total control and you will get the right wing conspiracy theorists in addition to the usual libleft/center
Is that related to this?
https://www.li.admin.ch/en/themes/the-spta
As far as I recall, there was a public vote on that, and it went in favor.
Same thing with the digital ID voted on this year.
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/votes/20250928/e-id-act.html
See, the problem with any form of democracy, is that it ends up being two wolves and a sheep voting for what's for dinner.
This is where the fight is now, about the encryption. It's because governments have already addressed the surveillance side and obviously have little issue with it. It shows that what they are stuck on today, is the encryption. There lies our fight for freedom across all countries.
ProtonMail is moving away due to proposed laws requiring de-anonymization of email
Apparently it’s moving its servers to Germany and Norway
Both of which are 14 eyes countries. In fact the German BND and American CIA ran a cryptography firm called Crypto AG together out of Switzerland from the 1970's until around 2009. They sold back-doored cryptography machines that were independently reviewed and trusted because it was a Swiss company.
This isn't against Proton, they appear to offer a good service and are moving to avoid a forced backdoor. It's just a statement on the location pretty much being irrelevant today regarding surveillance in general. The focus should remain on encryption. Escaping a jurisdiction that wants to backdoor encryption is an entirely different situation vs "We are moving to a more private country"
Switzerland is a war criminal and money laundering heaven. Their private banking is top notch in that regard.
Switzerland attracts surveillance because of that reputation. China has run VPN services out of it and SIngapore, claiming the jurisdictions protected users while funneling data back to them. The CIA and German BND also ran a cryptography firm out of Switzerland for over 30 years selling back-doored encryption machines. Those on both sides of the issue like Switzerland because they want to capitalize on it's reputation. The problem is, it's no longer the Switzerland of 30 years ago.
Greece? Hell no. We have a state mafia that illegally uses surveillance programmes like predator on the opposition and on journalists
The Dutch too
They're part of the 14 eyes aren't they?
They were one of the few who are adamantly against chat control, so there's that.
Which won't count to much if it gets enforced EU wide sadly
There is no place on earth that is safe, regardless of their local law. In fact, the impression of privacy invites external state actors to set up shop inside that country to capitalize on that belief. This has been the case for Switzerland time and time again, most famously with Crypto AG.
is Norway better than Austria
Not sure to be honest. Norway appears on more lists for good data privacy laws over Austria. But end of the day need a lawyer to actually compare the laws of the two countries and tell you.
Bhutan perhaps? Last time I visited they did not seem to gaf about spying.
Bhutan benefits nothing with having your info too and it's a peaceful landlocked country acting as a buffer between India and china
Peaceful? Wasn’t there a civil war or a violent or something not that long ago?
That's Nepal.
This one is close, except for their relationship with India, which is part of other agreements, and proximity to China, it's one of the few without formalized agreements. However, they are still subject to the IDX taps.
I wouldn't want to live in
Bhutanwith a uterus.Edit: I was thinking of Bahrain. My bad!
Do you have a link you can share where I can read more about this? Not aware of the status of gender equality there
Whoops! While there are anecdotes about the struggles of being a woman there, it is 100% not the country I was thinking of, where the government is openly hostile to women. I was wrong.
Bahrain, now THAT's a country I wouldn't want to live in as a woman.
Tax havens are probably the only real ones left.
British virgin islands, Panama etc...
USVI and BVI sigint is shared with 5 eyes countries.
I break out this for these posts, though it really needs some new disclosures added:
https://codamail.com/articles/The_Myth_of_Jurisdictional_Privacy.html
Ah, CodaMail floundering for relevance in the private email space.
That's off base, we've been around for over 25 years and that article has nothing to do with the service. There is no one service that can protect from it. Rather, it is a detailed dive into the true state of global surveillance. I do feel that this angers those who sell services with location as their main selling point, but it wasn't designed for that either. However, what I should have done is post the link to a previous forum post rather than post the url again. I can see how that doesn't look good to people who have seen it before.
That's an utterly depressing read.
It's a totally depressing state of surveillance globally that gets worse every day, especially if it involves a phone.
Define what “caring” means in this context. It encompasses a range of different solutions/practices/laws. There is no ideal pirate bay where everything would be perfect at the same time. You can explore certain aspects that are important to you and make a choice based on that.
Implementing laws that protect user privacy would be caring more about the privacy of their people, implementing requirements for facial ID to get a mobile phone would be more malicious. I guess neutral would be a country that ignores the whole thing and leaves it to the people to figure it out themselves
I remember the EU was hailed as a bastion of user privacy before they decided to cave into more invasive practices
EU was never 'bastion of user privacy'. The legislation was always only aimed at how private corporations handle their customers' data and there the objective was more to be the in position of control rather then protecting information.
But the 'invasive practices' far predate that and even EU itself. European states and EU was always collecting ton of data, for intelligence and law enforcement purposes but also for purpose of managing it's populations.
I would argue that some of the regulatory decisions (the cookie mandates) are actually substantially responsible - through unintended consequences - for the horrific situation we have now.
So my disillusionment was vindicated in the end…
curse wef lobbists...
Ah, yes, these well meaning politicians just wanted the best for us, God bless their souls, but the dastardly WEF lobbyists are keeping them away from God’s light for last 40 years.
well, kinda; neoliberalism air-money is the answer
last I checked, Japan still takes it pretty seriously.
And that's because we* do 90% of stuff on paper and communication is still done via fax :)))) (we don't have a fax at home since 2020 tho, but we still have the line)
I had to go to city hall a couple of years ago and I was shocked of the amount of paper, stuff I had to stamp (with the correct stamp lol, God forbid you have the wrong hanko). So far my general bank phased out the ATM passbook at least! What an achievement haha.
And there's no such thing like electronic invoices, they come in little papers that have the payment details too (similar to cheques, but more as a wire order)
(*Grew up there, family still there, moved in Europe tho for better pay lol)
Japan is part of the Japan-India-Australia trilateral intelligence sharing agreement, which was formalized in 2021. Australia is part of 5 eyes. India has bilateral agreements for sigint with the US and others.
Bit surprising one, I expected them to take the anti-privacy route since their culture is much more authoritarian
They're not really authoritarian, it's more a high degree of personal responsibility so it feels that way. Implied by society rather than forced by the government.
governments are not your friends
Trillion-dollar corporations aren't either, and even less so. They will, like Facebook, perpetuate genocide to make a dollar.
Countries that oppose chat control like Netherlands
Nederland Uber Alles
The Netherlands is part of 14 eyes surveillance network.
I think there are countries still who haven't introduced crazy control yet, in terms of surveillance, for example, Morocco, where I'm currently based.
Didn't they host a CIA torture site?
I have no idea, I'm not a Moroccan
Morocco has their own intensive surveillance through the DGST, DGSN, and DGED. In addition, there have been more than a few reports of Moroccan authorities deploying Pegasus. They also signed the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters in 1983, an MLAT with the US and other 14 eyes countries.
Okay, but I'm comparing with, let's say Russia, cause I'm Russian. I can use any app for chatting I want here ( signal), I can watch content I want, No one is pushing me to put some 'native' messenger app to my phone which will spy on me. New cars don't have Sim cards and SOS signal, when basically your location is being tracked all the time. Very, very limited amount of cameras outside. A lot of people using cash and it's normal here.
I'm just an average person, but I clearly see how less it's here than in my country, let's say.
https://brusselssignal.eu/2025/08/russia-orders-pre-installed-app-on-all-domestic-mobile-phones-and-tablets/
Additionally, the Russian-led Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) has implemented shared surveillance systems across member states, with technical centers in Moscow coordinating operations across Central Asia. This includes standardized monitoring equipment at internet exchange points and shared access to telecommunications monitoring systems.
Edit: Sorry, misunderstood the post at first.
It is definitely less in Morocco, but not none. The problem is that pretty much all governments are doing it in one form or another and those that aren't end up tapped anyway at the IDX. On a global level, it is not possible to escape a state actor just by going to another country.
Well, what about phones coming through 'black import "? Like apple and pixel, officially not sold in Russia. Anyways, it's always possible to buy obine abroad and not put this spy inside of your phone..
Phones are spies all by themselves. It's the installed apps and SDKs collecting data, including location data, and selling it to governments who are using this data for historical and current location tracking. It goes all the way down to sim manufacturers. Also, the telecom services, themselves, in pretty much every country, also provide access to their networks in one form or another for government requests.
So you will never install a single app on it? These are app store apps and games, including VPN apps, that collect this data and sell it, regardless whether or not it is a black market device.
I have two phones, pixel with different OS on it, all my main apps are there. The second phone is iPhone, with minimum apps. I do realize that my threat model is pretty avarage, however when it comes to such obvious Spyware as 'max', I won't put it on my phone, same as I don't have meta.
Chances are an app on your iPhone is tracking you. Even games like Candy Crush do. Dating apps. Weather apps. Religious apps. Health apps. Etc. For a little more detail on how they do and how the flow of this data leads to governments:
https://codamail.com/articles/your_phone_is_a_military_target.html
when tpbtp and your "representatives" need to hide something under their own carpet, they just do bs like this...
We need Kinakuta
reposting u/ledoscreen's comment as it is an important distinction
After the shift in EU and Switzerland, tempting to say USA.
Governments only care about what they are legally forced to care about in terms of (respecting) privacy, and even then, it's complicated.
Countries' stances on privacy vary widely and it really only makes sense to have a discussion about it in the context of liberal democracies, for obvious reasons.
I was gonna go off but honestly it's a pita to try to dissect in 140 words or less.
Short answer is, no. How privacy evolves in theory comes down to the ppl running the show, and when it comes to governments, that is supposed to represent the voice of the ppl, whom elect said representatives.
But we all know the not insignificant caveats and yes, buts, that must be attached to any discussion of this sort of thing.
Countries do not do this. It is done by states, i.e. the officials you elect.
What about indonesia and malaysia?
Not in capitalism
I don't capitalism is the leading factor, but rather authoritarianism. A socialist authoritarian government would also remove privacy measures
Right now data is profit (or a way to stimulate higher profits), therefore any and all data will be collected omitting any notions of rights to privacy.
The countries going through wars right now
Haha you clearly know nothing about war and the strength of military intelligence in most countries worldwide.
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Are there any Ukrainian e-SIM providers that I can buy remotely, top up and use in Poland?
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Switzerland?