2/5 Casino game. UTG (recreational )opens $20, and UTG +2 (professional ) 3 bets to $75. I have KK in the button and 4 bet to $225. UTG calls for less and then UTG+2 4 bets to all in, I have about $300 remaining. I kinda sensed he must be very strong as he kind of "fake tanked" and then shoved, and also I know he knew I had a tight table image. He did have AA, could I have found a fold?
What would be a better sizing? Maybe $175? I'm thinking then I could fold to a 5b
Generally anything over 1/3 of your stack is going to kinda force you to call off. A pro will notice and take it as you telegraphing your intention to stack off, but recs won't read into it like that as much
If you’re not stacking off with KK when u already have 40+% of your stack in you aren’t playing it right. This is the only answer.
In retrospect I don't think he'd ever shove on me with QQ or AK though (as we've played together before and he's never seen me 4 bet once in 2 years unless I have AA or KK)
Thats a results oriented thought. You should be stacking off pre with KK unless ur like 300+ big blinds deeps .
I know, but the problem is at the casino I play at, there's hardly ever any 3 bets, let alone 4 bets. So when someone 5 bet shoves...it's usually only aces, maybe kings but then I block kings.
What a nit
No you can't exploit a pro by folding kk pre for less than 100bb and if his jam range is exactly aa he is not a pro
So if you’re a pro what all are you jamming here? Because we have a cold 4 bet by a recreational player to over 40% of their stack… I think it’s a mistake to go with anything other than AA or KK in this spot from the professional’s perspective.
Lmfao, OP cold 4bets, they are 100bb eff. U think there are “pros” who will jam ak qq here? Gtfo
Yea i think jamming aks is super standard especially with dead money.
Cold 4 bets are dead money lol
Likely the latter
Honestly, this is just a standard cooler, so don't beat yourself up too much.
Math-wise, you're getting insane odds on the call (need like 28% equity). If he ever does this with AK or even QQ, you have to call.
However, that "fake tank" tell is deadly. In live low-stakes, "strong means weak." If a pro fake tanks and then shoves over a cold 4-bet from a tight player... yeah, it's basically always AA.
In theory, it's a snap call. In practice (live exploit), you actually found the one spot where a fold might be possible because of the Hollywood acting. But 99% of the time, we just pay the "Cooler Tax" and reload.
If my very rough estimate is right, you’re already essentially breaking even with all the dead money out there even if villain’s range is only AA and the other two kings. If villain has literally anything else they’d play this way, it’s a slam dunk call off. Coolers happen, and pot odds exist which is why folding KK is so rarely a good idea unless you’re super deep.
Extra note, if you’re going to put in a 1/3 + of your stack with a raise preflop, just jam instead.
There’s no dead money out there. The fish called all in for less UTG right?
If you are wondering about 4-bet sizing, you can go 2.2x because there isn’t a lot of 4-bet bluffs and you are in position so you need to raise an amount that can feasibly fold to a jam, but also small enough where players are incentivized to call with some worse hands. So, that would be like $165.
Bluffing into uncapped ranges tend to mean smaller sizes btw.
No you can't fold. You have a bit more than $500 and with KK by the time it gets to you it is 15% of your stack. Unless an A hits the flop you are going broke on this hand.
Consider as played. If you are the sort of person to agonize over if you should fold KK then UTG+2 knows the raise is going to allow him to isolate most of the time. Consider all the hands other than AA which could play similarly: AK, QQ (possibly), KK (there is 1 combination), AQs (possibly), QJs/JTs... What do you think the odds are of AA? Remember you have a non-zero chance of winning the pot even if he AA. A fold surrenders that equity so while it is certainly the far better play face up, it is a negative. So you would have to be something like 70% he had AA to make fold the right play. I don't see how you get there.
You could’ve found the fold only if they screamingly tell you they have aces like fake tank lol
But it’s just a cooler, imo
I have seen two people fold KK in 25 years - that showed
It’s a pretty easy flat pre imo. Keep fish in the hand and with spr of 2 you have easy way of geting the money in anyways. What’s the point of 4beting half of your stack?
In retrospect I don't hate flat calling - chance to even get the AA to fold at some point
No, you don’t make AA fold at any point. The positives for calling pre: Keep fish in the hand Villain has a wider range
You will get stacked anyways. That’s AA vs KK
A 5 bet is always AA.
Most pros don't even have a 5 bet range, and you really shouldn't either. Not unless you're 300+bb deep.
Yeah I was thinking since I've played him before and he knows I don't 3 bet bluff, let alone 4 bet bluff so that's another issue.
No.
You're calling 300 more to win 900 or so.
If youre just slightly wrong and he shows up with AKs like 1/10 times, you'd e making a bad fold.
Also your 4 bet sizing is terrible. You need to consider stack sizes when making a 4 bet. Also you dont need to 3x opponent, stack gets so shallow, sometimes min 4 bet is correct.
Yes. That's when you say "nice hollywooding" and fold your KK face up
make sure to just flash him the KK tho before you muck it and throw it in the muck real quick
"Nice fold" -Turns over AKs
You’re committed.
Would you be making this post if he had QQ
I have folded KK pre exactly one time in my life, and it was a super exploitative play where I was basically confident this particular player only does what he did with AA.
Versus a pro, for around 100bb? You gotta get it in, He's just gonna have Aces sometimes. That's poker.
unless an OMC 5-bets you then you cant fold KK
Not for 300 behind, no... at least, I couldn't have.
Can we just ban this type of post