But he doesn't do it for his own pleasure. Most cases are defensive and he's probably uncapable of processing consequences. But it's a different type of person than Don or Carol.
I never said he did it for his own pleasure. Do you know what show we’re talking about? The guy is a hitman, at the beginning of seasons 1 and 3, he is routinely killing people in his leisure for money. Even when it’s “defensive” he’s not defending his life, he’s defending his chances of going to prison
I'm not arguing he is not a bad person (tho arguably lacking ability to differentiate good from bad), but that is equal to being mean asshole. Those are different qualities.
Based on the examples given in the post, I thought it’d be funny to praise Barry in the same way he was at the end of the show. I think going out of your way to specify that he wasn’t “mean” is pointless and pedantic. And also, again, I wonder if we watched the same show, cause he turned into a comically deranged asshole in the last two seasons
I could never got over how they had endless energy to do all the spying killing maiming and then coming back in the morning to start another suburban day.
I mean I get that they are spies. Just…now that I’m 37 and sleeping 6 hours ruins my next day, it’s a super feat.
In the Mad Men sub the other day someone mentionned they only realized on the second or third viewing that Don was an asshole. On the second or third viewing.
I saw something the other day saying that landman was pro-oil propaganda.
Who is watching landman and rooting for the corrupt oil company that has embezzled money, had multiple fatalities on the job, tried to rip off the widows of dead employees, employs known violent gang members and makes deals with the cartel.
I like the character of Tommy but he's really not something to aspire to.
I don't know if I'm falling for some okbuddylandman thing here or something but in case I'm not...
I saw something the other day saying that landman was pro-oil propaganda.
... it literally is, though. As in being funded by the oil industry and advertisted by the API to push what they call "energy realism" (which is another word for oil is reliable and keeps the world going and green energy is a dud for losers with no idea of how the real world operates). And the show absolutely beats you over the head with that whole "energy realism" shtick like you owe it money.
The characters can be assholes and the companies can be sleazy all they want but at the end of the day everybody is going to turn to the camera and tell you in unison that you may not like it - but Big Oil keeps the world turning and only an absolute idiot would think there will ever be viable alternatives to destroying our planet to get to it.
I know this is a joke, but Carol isn’t even mean or unlikable, I don’t know why so many people are saying this. Vince has even said she’s different from his other show protagonists in that she’s supposed to be a hero.
The only time I even got a little upset or frustrated with her was in the last episode, but I’m pretty sure that’s how you were supposed to feel. And I understand why she felt that way too and got to that point.
She’s not perfect and we shouldn’t expect her to be.
I was just saying to my wife at night when we were watching, I find Carol so relatable. I can be very much like this in a bad phase. If I lost my wife in a weird ass apocalypse I would call this a bad phase.
I think she's a good well written character but I find her moderately unlikable. Just my opinion. I agree she's meant to have flaws. Flawless characters are usually boring anyway.
Carol is so unlikable that she immediately alienates every one of the other noninfected that she meets. Diabate tries to be nice to her but even he can't wait for her to leave. She's an alcoholic with zero patience in dealing with other people. But that's fine. That's what makes her a great character.
I mean, all the other non-infected were fully drinking the hive koolaid at that point. And Carol had just lost Helen and was acting pretty sane in the situation of what just happened. She was a little aggressive, but I think the main reason the other non-infected didn’t like her was the same reason Carol didn’t get along with Manousos when he met up with her - they were in denial and didn’t want to face the reality of what was actually happening.
I think in-universe it makes sense why the other non-infected don’t like her, but as a viewer I didn’t find her much unlikable until episode 9. She was just trying to do the same thing Manousos is doing - save the world.
it's not about YOU is my whole point. It's about the premise of the show. Obviously likeability is a subjective thing so there's always going to be some people who like and dislike the same character. I kind of like her too, at least in the abstract. I think I'd find her incredibly frustrating to deal with in real life but I love her as a character because she's interesting. The fact is, though, that she is MEANT to be unlikeable. The premise of the show is this conflict between this objectively pretty terrible person being the only one who can save the world. That's what makes the show interesting. That's what Vince Gilligan does. Conflict is what drives the plot. This video explains it pretty well:
The reason why I’m saying why I like her is because I understand why the other characters in the show find her unlikable - I’m saying I find it a little odd how so many VIEWERS find her unlikable.
We’re clearing not gonna see eye to eye here, so let’s just agree to disagree at this point lol.
She’s constantly violating the most basic social norms and has so much rage and so little self control that she murdered millions of people on multiple occasions because she couldn’t control her temper. She’s spectacularly self centered and hypocritical, the literal tagline to the show is "the most miserable person on Earth who must save the world from happiness.” She’s deliberately written to be a miserable person. The fact that you’re missing that is interesting but if you’re missing every clue the writers are laying out there then there’s no point I can bring up that will convince you. Unlikeability is subjective so I’m not going to say you’re wrong. There is no wrong or right but the intent of the writers is clearly for her to be perceived as unlikable on balance and theyve said as much.
How was she supposed to know getting upset would cause that tho? Be honest. Even the second time, finding out no one cared that the world was over except her? You’re speaking from a place of 0 empathy like you’d be perfect under the same circumstances
How is she self-centered in the beginning episodes before she falls for Zosia though? Because she wants to save the world?
And miserable doesn’t automatically equate unlikable in my opinion. And you could argue Manousos is fairly miserable and I haven’t seen people giving half the hate they give Carol to him.
At episode 9, sure, she’s more selfish and wants at that point to save herself more than just the world. But in the beginning of the season I feel you could argue she wanted to genuinely save the world too.
That's who she is. She didn't just SUDDENLY become selfish in episode 9. It's a REVEAL of who she really is. She wanted to save the world in the beginning because she was furious that the hive mind killed her partner and she doesn't want them to absorb her. Once she thinks that they can't threaten her and she falls in love with Zosia, she decides that she DOESN'T want to save the world. Then when she learns that the hive mind IS going to absorb her, she IMMEDIATELY changes her mind and wants to save the world again. The writers couldn't possibly be making it more clear without a narrator popping up and saying, "Carol's motivation is essentially selfish. She wants to save the world if it aligns with her self-interest but when saving the world threatens her happiness with Zosia, she turns against it. Then, as soon as the hive mind becomes a threat to HER, she immediately decides she wants to save the world again."
it feels a little crazy, yeah, especially since I'm just quoting the literal tagline of the show. People want to believe what they want. There's no convincing most people with facts anymore.
Agreed on her not being mean unnecessarily, the only time she was 'mean', it was to someone who swung first or is just a slimy person. Laxmi being snide first, Diabete being a slimy rapist pos, Zosia and the Hive killing Helen then never showing any real remorse for it.
I disagree on unlikeable though. I liked original Carol. Broken Carol who gave in to the loneliness and sank into the delusion the same as the others came off incredibly hypocritical and I didn't like her. I still think she's written amazingly well and that only added to her character story, but it was definitely there to get you tearing your hair out.
Those shows all have male lead characters, men are allowed more leeway. Pluribus? I wasn't excited for it. I thought the premise sounded gimmicky. But I love it. Very surprised. I miss shows paced like this, everything now is supertease driven.
It's a show about a misanthrope who has to come to terms with herself. If someone isn't interested in a character study, then it's not going to be very engaging for them.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but, anyway, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of audiences do not care about the sex of a lead character, as long as its well written. There are plenty of popular and beloved female leads and heroines in both movie, shows and games.
Don't confuse the loud and obnoxious minority with the modest and reasonable majority.
I’ll respectfully disagree with this, for the first couple seasons, sure it can be a bit slow. Especially all the bits in season 2 where Walt and her are lying to each other and questioning each other about whereabouts. However after she finds the truth at the end of season 2, she is integral to the show’s plot as well as Walt’s character.
I don't even know why people are saying Carol is so unlikeable?
Everyone on the whole fucking planet has turned into happy zombies and the love of her life died that same night. She has no one else in the world and even the Hive isolated her for weeks. Why would she be super happy and cool with that situation? Any sane person would be being pretty "unlikeable" in that situation.
Also, people keep comparing her to Koumba like she's a selfish asshole, but actually I don't see how that's the same at all either. Koumba's literal FIRST response when the Joining happened was to start fucking every hot woman he could and spend all day getting waited on hand and foot living a life of delusion and luxury. He spends all day imagining he's James Bond and lives a pathetic fake fantasy life.
Carol is interested in Zosia because she is, in some way, in love with Zosia and seduced by her specifically in a time when she's vulnerable after losing Helen. She is being manipulated into feeling that way, manipulated into sex and a fake "relationship". She didn't just hook up with Zosia and then 100 other Plurbs because she wants to mindlessly fuck every attractive woman on the planet for the lulz.
Koumba on the other hand wanted to fuck Zosia a few hours after meeting her just like all the other women he is banging for hedonistic reasons, he doesn't care about them as individual people particularly at all.
Ik this is a troll but evil doesnt mean unlikable. Tony is incredibly likable, as is Jesse , almost every character in the wire is charming in some way etc
I don't think Tony is likable. Without the mob, he's unemployable, and putting aside the "raise my kids off the profits of crime" set up, he's a total psychopath whose own ruin is spelled out in his self-serving and impulsive mistakes.
I wouldn’t say unlikeable. Complicated. I mean they didn’t go into her drinking problem, why she got arrested for it. Or the “pray away the gay camp” she was forced to go to.
She consistently makes self-destructive choices for emotionally irrational reasons. That is the most realistic character in modern TV. The self-loathing is immense and sometimes I watch this show and feel like I am looking in the mirror.
There are over 10 other autonomous human beings in the exact same situation who have all found a way to deal with the circumstances WITHOUT being extremely negative and stupid. Walter White may have been a grouch, but he was still written to be likeable and have redeeming qualities (such as the most basic ability to read a fucking room).
Carol has, in the first 2 episodes alone, killed over 11 million people by mistake, and most likely even more after that DESPITE knowing the consequences of her negativity and anger by then, disrespected other autonomous people trying to hold on to what they have left of their families (one of whom is morning a grandfather that SHE killed), tried to force her way of thinking on everyone else, displayed an exaggerated sense of self importance, dedicated zero time to actually learning about the situation she's in so that she can navigate it better, and drank herself into a stupor. Additionally, before the worldwide event even happened, she had no problem trashing the people that pay her damn bills.
The notion that "she's just a normal person having a normal reaction" just seems like people trying their hardest convince themselves they would be able to put up with someone like that in real life because they like the show. It's perfectly okay to admit that a character is annoyingly unlikeable, especially when they're clearly written to be this much of a Karen.
The other people are being manipulated or are monsters.
The majority of people being one way doesn't make it right. Lakshmi is an angry fool, Diabate is an empty hedonist, ect. How can you possibly say they aren't far more stupid than Carol?
Carol's anger was valid, and as soon as she realized the consequences she has tried desperately to control it but merely feeling something doesn't make her a bad person
I fucking loved the first season of all of those shows. I think the first season of Pluribus is a really solid 5.5-6/10.
Hopefully it improves, despite these redundant cope posts. I hope this doesn't turn into the Alien Earth sub when that show also turned out disappointing because I like it here :(
It tends to be a big complaint when the lead is a woman, especially when she's not trying to be sexy. When she's just being a normal person with normal feelings.
I LOVE when the lead character of a TV show is an unlikeable asshole whos mean. Those are, by far and away, the most interesting and complex characters. Tony Soprano, Logan Roy, Walter White.......its a long list. With the exception of maybe a Ted Lasso here and there, who may be the nicest character ever invented for a TV show, the nicer and kinder they are the more boring they are.
Okay but I did enjoy Carol being an asshole before she got abandoned for 40 days. Once she begged Zosia and the hive to come back, it was a drag watching her fall in love and protect her new "girlfriend" or whatever from Manousos until the eggs reveal finally happened. Yeah I get that's the show's vision, but I think the slow burn worked way better for the first half of this season. These last three episodes sucked except for when Manousos was on screen, those should've been condensed more
Do they have to be nice or have a brain?? That's my issue with characters, not them being mean but being so ungodly stupid that they go out of their way to make the absolute worst decision every time.
This is also the same thing I think of everytime I see someone say that people find Carol difficult to side with just because she's a woman. Like really? Is it hard to believe that in a show made by Vince Gilligan the protagonist isn't completely good?
I think the criticism for Carol also gets a bit worse because shes not super comepetent or intelligent like the others on the list. Shes just super depressed and kind of checked out and even when she gets bursts of motivation to do things she reverts to a slump almost instantly. She finds out the hive cant lie and basically does zero interrogating beyond the first tiny bit between when she found out and when she drugged Zosia and they abandoned her.
Its a narrative arc that shes so scared of her fake hive friends leaving her again she doenst want to mess with them at all, but it just becomes very aggravating to watch when she gets an actual human who wants to be an ally with her, and she still doesnt care and just wants to be with her submissive odedient sexy GF whos acting out a role shes directed.
Its also much more forgiveable when those other characters bad behaviour drives plot and is what creates drama, while Carol her deppressed sulking behaviour is a device the show uses to keep stalling the plot so they can drag things out. Even Bojack Horseman who is also depressed and somewhat self sabotaging its more OK since thats just the whole show, Pluribus gives us that intriguing virus plotline so its got less grace to just be a pure character study type show on Carol
Are you saying Carol is an unlikable asshome? I don’t agree, not totally. She’s learning from this experience. Who’s the one saying “they’re still people”?
You are confusing likability with moral goodness. Walter White was not a good man, but he was a likeable character with compelling motivations. Carol Sturka is an unlikeable character with shifty motivations. You have no reason to root for her over Manousos at this point in the show, unless you care mostly about her gender or sexuality.
Don’t forget Barry, the American war hero
He was set up by cousineau
Oh wow …
Barry! Great guy!
I mean, he was pretty polite if you didn't count the other stuff.
Not Barry. Barry isn't mean to others because he likes it, it's because he lacks tools to understand and empathize with others.
I can think of one thing that Barry does to other people that might be worse than being “mean”
But he doesn't do it for his own pleasure. Most cases are defensive and he's probably uncapable of processing consequences. But it's a different type of person than Don or Carol.
I never said he did it for his own pleasure. Do you know what show we’re talking about? The guy is a hitman, at the beginning of seasons 1 and 3, he is routinely killing people in his leisure for money. Even when it’s “defensive” he’s not defending his life, he’s defending his chances of going to prison
I'm not arguing he is not a bad person (tho arguably lacking ability to differentiate good from bad), but that is equal to being mean asshole. Those are different qualities.
You’re confusing the hell out of me bro I have no idea what I said that you disagree with
You did not reply to the topic "I don't like when main character is mean asshole" with example of Barry?
Based on the examples given in the post, I thought it’d be funny to praise Barry in the same way he was at the end of the show. I think going out of your way to specify that he wasn’t “mean” is pointless and pedantic. And also, again, I wonder if we watched the same show, cause he turned into a comically deranged asshole in the last two seasons
My forever love Selena Meyer
I think I want to hear an “okey dokey, Annie Oakley.”
The Americans. Why can't we just have more shows about nice suburban couples who love their kids and mostly only murder at night.
Vince please revive Santa Clarita Diet, Vince please
I could never got over how they had endless energy to do all the spying killing maiming and then coming back in the morning to start another suburban day.
I mean I get that they are spies. Just…now that I’m 37 and sleeping 6 hours ruins my next day, it’s a super feat.
In the Mad Men sub the other day someone mentionned they only realized on the second or third viewing that Don was an asshole. On the second or third viewing.
Its honestly so insane what male characters can get away with
I saw something the other day saying that landman was pro-oil propaganda.
Who is watching landman and rooting for the corrupt oil company that has embezzled money, had multiple fatalities on the job, tried to rip off the widows of dead employees, employs known violent gang members and makes deals with the cartel.
I like the character of Tommy but he's really not something to aspire to.
I don't know if I'm falling for some okbuddylandman thing here or something but in case I'm not...
... it literally is, though. As in being funded by the oil industry and advertisted by the API to push what they call "energy realism" (which is another word for oil is reliable and keeps the world going and green energy is a dud for losers with no idea of how the real world operates). And the show absolutely beats you over the head with that whole "energy realism" shtick like you owe it money.
The characters can be assholes and the companies can be sleazy all they want but at the end of the day everybody is going to turn to the camera and tell you in unison that you may not like it - but Big Oil keeps the world turning and only an absolute idiot would think there will ever be viable alternatives to destroying our planet to get to it.
Same kind of people who think Tyler Durden is a good dude probably.
I love an unlikable female character who doesn’t give af
Fleabag was a big hit…
How about one who commits SA on her chaperone?
I like Meg from Family Guy
No one committed SA in this show. Very dumb brain take.
All the main characters on Succession are also all charismatic, stalwart citizens.
The only ethical billionaires!
Yea also like the traditional family values like in breaking bad more
I know this is a joke, but Carol isn’t even mean or unlikable, I don’t know why so many people are saying this. Vince has even said she’s different from his other show protagonists in that she’s supposed to be a hero.
The only time I even got a little upset or frustrated with her was in the last episode, but I’m pretty sure that’s how you were supposed to feel. And I understand why she felt that way too and got to that point.
She’s not perfect and we shouldn’t expect her to be.
I was just saying to my wife at night when we were watching, I find Carol so relatable. I can be very much like this in a bad phase. If I lost my wife in a weird ass apocalypse I would call this a bad phase.
I think she's a good well written character but I find her moderately unlikable. Just my opinion. I agree she's meant to have flaws. Flawless characters are usually boring anyway.
Carol is so unlikable that she immediately alienates every one of the other noninfected that she meets. Diabate tries to be nice to her but even he can't wait for her to leave. She's an alcoholic with zero patience in dealing with other people. But that's fine. That's what makes her a great character.
I mean, all the other non-infected were fully drinking the hive koolaid at that point. And Carol had just lost Helen and was acting pretty sane in the situation of what just happened. She was a little aggressive, but I think the main reason the other non-infected didn’t like her was the same reason Carol didn’t get along with Manousos when he met up with her - they were in denial and didn’t want to face the reality of what was actually happening.
I think in-universe it makes sense why the other non-infected don’t like her, but as a viewer I didn’t find her much unlikable until episode 9. She was just trying to do the same thing Manousos is doing - save the world.
the tagline of the show literally calls her the most miserable person on the planet.
And just because she’s called “the most miserable person on earth” doesn’t make her unlikable to me.
it's not about YOU is my whole point. It's about the premise of the show. Obviously likeability is a subjective thing so there's always going to be some people who like and dislike the same character. I kind of like her too, at least in the abstract. I think I'd find her incredibly frustrating to deal with in real life but I love her as a character because she's interesting. The fact is, though, that she is MEANT to be unlikeable. The premise of the show is this conflict between this objectively pretty terrible person being the only one who can save the world. That's what makes the show interesting. That's what Vince Gilligan does. Conflict is what drives the plot. This video explains it pretty well:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DR7idDDEVeZ/
The reason why I’m saying why I like her is because I understand why the other characters in the show find her unlikable - I’m saying I find it a little odd how so many VIEWERS find her unlikable.
We’re clearing not gonna see eye to eye here, so let’s just agree to disagree at this point lol.
She’s constantly violating the most basic social norms and has so much rage and so little self control that she murdered millions of people on multiple occasions because she couldn’t control her temper. She’s spectacularly self centered and hypocritical, the literal tagline to the show is "the most miserable person on Earth who must save the world from happiness.” She’s deliberately written to be a miserable person. The fact that you’re missing that is interesting but if you’re missing every clue the writers are laying out there then there’s no point I can bring up that will convince you. Unlikeability is subjective so I’m not going to say you’re wrong. There is no wrong or right but the intent of the writers is clearly for her to be perceived as unlikable on balance and theyve said as much.
She accidentally killed people with her rage and immediately regretted it, she literally vomited because she felt so bad.
Manousos intentionally triggered the hive this episode yet I’ve seen 0 complaints about that.
How was she supposed to know getting upset would cause that tho? Be honest. Even the second time, finding out no one cared that the world was over except her? You’re speaking from a place of 0 empathy like you’d be perfect under the same circumstances
How is she self-centered in the beginning episodes before she falls for Zosia though? Because she wants to save the world?
And miserable doesn’t automatically equate unlikable in my opinion. And you could argue Manousos is fairly miserable and I haven’t seen people giving half the hate they give Carol to him.
She doesn't want to save the world. That's the whole point of episode 9. She wants to save HERSELF.
At episode 9, sure, she’s more selfish and wants at that point to save herself more than just the world. But in the beginning of the season I feel you could argue she wanted to genuinely save the world too.
That's who she is. She didn't just SUDDENLY become selfish in episode 9. It's a REVEAL of who she really is. She wanted to save the world in the beginning because she was furious that the hive mind killed her partner and she doesn't want them to absorb her. Once she thinks that they can't threaten her and she falls in love with Zosia, she decides that she DOESN'T want to save the world. Then when she learns that the hive mind IS going to absorb her, she IMMEDIATELY changes her mind and wants to save the world again. The writers couldn't possibly be making it more clear without a narrator popping up and saying, "Carol's motivation is essentially selfish. She wants to save the world if it aligns with her self-interest but when saving the world threatens her happiness with Zosia, she turns against it. Then, as soon as the hive mind becomes a threat to HER, she immediately decides she wants to save the world again."
Crazy how you’re being downvoted
it feels a little crazy, yeah, especially since I'm just quoting the literal tagline of the show. People want to believe what they want. There's no convincing most people with facts anymore.
"zero patience in dealing with other people"
Clint Eastwood had an entire career built on this premise
Agreed on her not being mean unnecessarily, the only time she was 'mean', it was to someone who swung first or is just a slimy person. Laxmi being snide first, Diabete being a slimy rapist pos, Zosia and the Hive killing Helen then never showing any real remorse for it.
I disagree on unlikeable though. I liked original Carol. Broken Carol who gave in to the loneliness and sank into the delusion the same as the others came off incredibly hypocritical and I didn't like her. I still think she's written amazingly well and that only added to her character story, but it was definitely there to get you tearing your hair out.
Her in episode 9 is legit the only time she’s unlikable to me and I think that’s on purpose. Then she snaps out of it.
Those shows all have male lead characters, men are allowed more leeway. Pluribus? I wasn't excited for it. I thought the premise sounded gimmicky. But I love it. Very surprised. I miss shows paced like this, everything now is supertease driven.
It's a show about a misanthrope who has to come to terms with herself. If someone isn't interested in a character study, then it's not going to be very engaging for them.
But not sure if your post is sarcastic or not.
It was sarcastic for sure. I think it was my way of trying to make as similar point to what you said.
It’s because she’s a woman. Look at the reactions to Skyler
Yup
[deleted]
Yeah misspelling a character name with a common spelling of the name from a decade old television show is a big disrespect
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but, anyway, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of audiences do not care about the sex of a lead character, as long as its well written. There are plenty of popular and beloved female leads and heroines in both movie, shows and games.
Don't confuse the loud and obnoxious minority with the modest and reasonable majority.
There was an analysis of audience IMDB ratings and they found that shows with female leads rated lower than ones with male leads
The thing with Skyler was that every time she shows up, all plot threads grind to a screeching halt until she's gone again.
With Pluribus that is the status quo already, which is intertwined with Carol's non-development
I’ll respectfully disagree with this, for the first couple seasons, sure it can be a bit slow. Especially all the bits in season 2 where Walt and her are lying to each other and questioning each other about whereabouts. However after she finds the truth at the end of season 2, she is integral to the show’s plot as well as Walt’s character.
I’d be more unlikable in these circumstances honestly.
I don't even know why people are saying Carol is so unlikeable?
Everyone on the whole fucking planet has turned into happy zombies and the love of her life died that same night. She has no one else in the world and even the Hive isolated her for weeks. Why would she be super happy and cool with that situation? Any sane person would be being pretty "unlikeable" in that situation.
Also, people keep comparing her to Koumba like she's a selfish asshole, but actually I don't see how that's the same at all either. Koumba's literal FIRST response when the Joining happened was to start fucking every hot woman he could and spend all day getting waited on hand and foot living a life of delusion and luxury. He spends all day imagining he's James Bond and lives a pathetic fake fantasy life.
Carol is interested in Zosia because she is, in some way, in love with Zosia and seduced by her specifically in a time when she's vulnerable after losing Helen. She is being manipulated into feeling that way, manipulated into sex and a fake "relationship". She didn't just hook up with Zosia and then 100 other Plurbs because she wants to mindlessly fuck every attractive woman on the planet for the lulz.
Koumba on the other hand wanted to fuck Zosia a few hours after meeting her just like all the other women he is banging for hedonistic reasons, he doesn't care about them as individual people particularly at all.
Carol is my hero. And the hive, the hive is my other hero.
Ik this is a troll but evil doesnt mean unlikable. Tony is incredibly likable, as is Jesse , almost every character in the wire is charming in some way etc
I do like Carol too though through all her flaws.
You just called her an unlikeable asshole.
She is objectively unlikeable. The people in the show dont like her. That doesnt mean we the viewer don't like her.
I don't think Tony is likable. Without the mob, he's unemployable, and putting aside the "raise my kids off the profits of crime" set up, he's a total psychopath whose own ruin is spelled out in his self-serving and impulsive mistakes.
Yeah but he seems fun at parties
there are no scraps in my scrapbook!
Happy birthday to you, got salchicha for you
But he has nice dreams. Lots of ducks. Ducks are nice. We need more lead ducks.
God, if Mad Men became mainstream and more people got to know Don Draper, they’d reconsider Carol fr lmao
Yea somehow listed next to people as bad as Tony and Walter White and Don Draper somehow still is the biggest asshole on the list
Breaking Bad - Walter is bad, 9/10 characters doing bad things. Better call saul - Saul and Kim doing bad things.
Walter… such a nice, nice guy.
She's unlikeable, but in a good way. How else is she supposed to react to these circumstances?
I wouldn’t say unlikeable. Complicated. I mean they didn’t go into her drinking problem, why she got arrested for it. Or the “pray away the gay camp” she was forced to go to.
She consistently makes self-destructive choices for emotionally irrational reasons. That is the most realistic character in modern TV. The self-loathing is immense and sometimes I watch this show and feel like I am looking in the mirror.
I love it.
She did heroin in high school too lol! Seems like she’s had a rocky road with addiction.
There are over 10 other autonomous human beings in the exact same situation who have all found a way to deal with the circumstances WITHOUT being extremely negative and stupid. Walter White may have been a grouch, but he was still written to be likeable and have redeeming qualities (such as the most basic ability to read a fucking room).
Carol has, in the first 2 episodes alone, killed over 11 million people by mistake, and most likely even more after that DESPITE knowing the consequences of her negativity and anger by then, disrespected other autonomous people trying to hold on to what they have left of their families (one of whom is morning a grandfather that SHE killed), tried to force her way of thinking on everyone else, displayed an exaggerated sense of self importance, dedicated zero time to actually learning about the situation she's in so that she can navigate it better, and drank herself into a stupor. Additionally, before the worldwide event even happened, she had no problem trashing the people that pay her damn bills.
The notion that "she's just a normal person having a normal reaction" just seems like people trying their hardest convince themselves they would be able to put up with someone like that in real life because they like the show. It's perfectly okay to admit that a character is annoyingly unlikeable, especially when they're clearly written to be this much of a Karen.
The other people are being manipulated or are monsters.
The majority of people being one way doesn't make it right. Lakshmi is an angry fool, Diabate is an empty hedonist, ect. How can you possibly say they aren't far more stupid than Carol?
Carol's anger was valid, and as soon as she realized the consequences she has tried desperately to control it but merely feeling something doesn't make her a bad person
Maybe try to stop the apocalypse when offered help and not go skiing with a mind controlled pod person instead.
How misogynistic! Criticizing a woman?
Wow. I never truly realized how many people can’t understand irony no matter how blatant it seems to be. This is so interesting.
I fucking loved the first season of all of those shows. I think the first season of Pluribus is a really solid 5.5-6/10.
Hopefully it improves, despite these redundant cope posts. I hope this doesn't turn into the Alien Earth sub when that show also turned out disappointing because I like it here :(
Thunderbirds. Thunderbirds had some great actors.
It tends to be a big complaint when the lead is a woman, especially when she's not trying to be sexy. When she's just being a normal person with normal feelings.
I LOVE when the lead character of a TV show is an unlikeable asshole whos mean. Those are, by far and away, the most interesting and complex characters. Tony Soprano, Logan Roy, Walter White.......its a long list. With the exception of maybe a Ted Lasso here and there, who may be the nicest character ever invented for a TV show, the nicer and kinder they are the more boring they are.
I really dislike it when the main character in a great show does dumb or stupid things.
Any main character I watch better be a goddamned role model!
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to my Bojack marathon.
Alright but you gotta get over it
Okay but I did enjoy Carol being an asshole before she got abandoned for 40 days. Once she begged Zosia and the hive to come back, it was a drag watching her fall in love and protect her new "girlfriend" or whatever from Manousos until the eggs reveal finally happened. Yeah I get that's the show's vision, but I think the slow burn worked way better for the first half of this season. These last three episodes sucked except for when Manousos was on screen, those should've been condensed more
Do they have to be nice or have a brain?? That's my issue with characters, not them being mean but being so ungodly stupid that they go out of their way to make the absolute worst decision every time.
Walter White is a very unlikable asshole and it's what makes the show interesting.
It’s funny cuz I love all those shows you listed but I hate six feet under and the leftovers cuz I can’t stand their leads
I really love it.
There's a long way to go, isn't there?
This is also the same thing I think of everytime I see someone say that people find Carol difficult to side with just because she's a woman. Like really? Is it hard to believe that in a show made by Vince Gilligan the protagonist isn't completely good?
At this point I don’t even understand which posts are sarcastic and which aren’t
Alright but you gotta get over it
Yeah, like “The Sopranos” would have been way more interesting if he had been a law-abiding citizen. /s
I too like nice main characters who all just happen to be men. I dislike not nice main characters... whom happen to be women
Mr Ripley... So damned talented!
House
I think the criticism for Carol also gets a bit worse because shes not super comepetent or intelligent like the others on the list. Shes just super depressed and kind of checked out and even when she gets bursts of motivation to do things she reverts to a slump almost instantly. She finds out the hive cant lie and basically does zero interrogating beyond the first tiny bit between when she found out and when she drugged Zosia and they abandoned her.
Its a narrative arc that shes so scared of her fake hive friends leaving her again she doenst want to mess with them at all, but it just becomes very aggravating to watch when she gets an actual human who wants to be an ally with her, and she still doesnt care and just wants to be with her submissive odedient sexy GF whos acting out a role shes directed.
Its also much more forgiveable when those other characters bad behaviour drives plot and is what creates drama, while Carol her deppressed sulking behaviour is a device the show uses to keep stalling the plot so they can drag things out. Even Bojack Horseman who is also depressed and somewhat self sabotaging its more OK since thats just the whole show, Pluribus gives us that intriguing virus plotline so its got less grace to just be a pure character study type show on Carol
Are you saying Carol is an unlikable asshome? I don’t agree, not totally. She’s learning from this experience. Who’s the one saying “they’re still people”?
Yeah except you’re not allowed to say Carol is unlikable
I haven’t seen any of those shows, so I couldn’t say.
But typically, in storytelling even the antiheroes have some redeeming quality, which grows in importance as their story progresses.
The only redeeming moment I’ve seen in Carol is when she defended the Hive’s humanity. Surely season two will have more moments of redemption.
See, I was annoyed by that. They aren’t human.
You are confusing likability with moral goodness. Walter White was not a good man, but he was a likeable character with compelling motivations. Carol Sturka is an unlikeable character with shifty motivations. You have no reason to root for her over Manousos at this point in the show, unless you care mostly about her gender or sexuality.
Im not rooting for Carol over Manousos Im rooting for them both
I don't like her
How is Walter White remotely likeable? This post is giving misogyny.
Is that what it's "giving"?
He walks away from explosions and is badass
Sharp as a cue ball this one…
He's not necessarily likeable, but at the beginning of the series he is relatable.
That’s the point. I guess you lack the irony gene?
When was Don mean? 😢
He’s mean or disinterested in just about every scene lol 😭