For me, this sequence was entirely in character for Carol. This part of the story is compelling precisely because of her tendency to escape when reality became too heavy for her. She chose Zosia over Manousos for avoidance and to clinge to an illusion that felt easier. I think it as a lot to do with her past as well. Zosia was this kind of suspended space where she could momentarily rewrite herself and also free herself from the weight of her past. Remembering her past with her parents and how she had to go through conversion therapy makes me belieive that this temptation has always been part of Carol’s character. Zosia offered her a pause from all of what's happened in her life, not only from the joining itself. Seeing how genuinely happy she was, she felt she was finally in a space where she could exist without history pressing in on her.
Everything that happened in the finale had to happen. By going with Zosia, Carol exhausts the fantasy for herself. Eventually she learns, painfully and firsthand, that the alternative life she imagined isn’t sustainable. Carol's character could grow by making the right choice immediately with Manousos but she had to grow by finally running out of places to hide. I have the feeling that she had to have this detour because she had to live the mistake. I get why it’s frustrating, but I think that frustration is exactly what the narrative was aiming for. The finale wasn't meant to ask us to approve of Carol either. It’s asking us to recognize her. She is messy and painfully human.
And ironically, the show opens with Carol showing disdain and superiority towards the Wycaro fans, who she thinks are more interested in superficial, manufactured fluff than in substantial authentic work
We’ve now seen Carol externalize what she previously damned her readers for — facing her own projected judgment and having it smack her in the face
She was safely tucked into her hive of two. She had Helen there to shield her from the world, and she was free to remain aloof. Part of this story is her learning to deal with people for the first time as an adult.
Yeah, Carol is not a functional adult
She’s so dysfunctional that her wife installed a monitor in the liquor cabinet, ffs
I see so many people frustrated or confused by Carol’s actions, expecting more consistency or cohesion or plain sense, and y’all may not be considering just what a stunted mess Carol is
Remember, the reason she had that truck, later a police car, and later a Mercedes, was that her actual car had a breathalyzer to prevent her from driving drunk.
You’re right. The crumbs are there, we just need to piece everything together.
Another thing about those Wycaro fans… we met them in a big silly montage highlighting how drastically different and individual each of them were. She was so annoyed by wave after wave of new personalities - quite the juxtaposition to present day.
I thought some of the sequences of this series are too long for its own good. But it was all there to tell us who Carol is, why she did the things she did, without forcing on us. It fits the message of the show too, is not to let ourselves caught off guards in the sunshine, and start using our observation skills instead.
This is a really fantastic observation, one of the best I've seen on this sub.
Great writeup! I'd also like to stress that Carol didn't go into this delusion by choice, she was manipulated into it, I think most people are forgetting this part.
And at the end of the day, she's a character. Characters, like other narrative tools, exist to move the story forward, to give it depth. Yes, her actions can be somewhat frustrating, but if she were to make the logical, rational, "right" decision every time, the show wouldn't be that interesting or entertaining.
A bit sad to see the hatred for Carol, honestly. She might be the first of Gilligan's main characters (Walt, Jimmy) to receive this much vitriol just for being flawed (whereas with the other two, they're celebrated for it).
She's a fantasy writer and they put forward their member most like her fantasy's lead. They made her mental escape real after causing the death of Helen.
Yes, which is why rather than be frustrated at her for her actions, I just feel sad for her :(
It was so heartbreaking when she (a) thought she was talking to Zosia and not the Hive, (b) that the hive had any more love for her than the rest, and (c) that they would respect her wishes for getting stem cells if they had a non-invasive procedure.
And just all at once she went from being maybe happier than she has ever been to destroyed.
It's 7 billion people trying to manipulate one person they have an advantage.
And using cult-like tactics to get her there: social isolation and love-bombing. That's heady stuff, even if she wasn't a recovering addict who just lost her wife and everyone she ever cared about.
well, she went into it by choice, and with suspicion and a secret plan, but then the comfort and pleasure of it wore her down
honestly i was surprised how far into the fantasy she'd fallen, when Manousos is challenging her she's hearing the truth in it but she fights so hard to keep the bubble unburst
(and of course that only works until Zosia starts talking to her like a conversion camp counselor again)
How did she go into it by choice? She was left isolated for more than a month, and when she was upset, the hive's first instict was to kiss her, knowing she was starved and desperate for touch and connection. That's emotional manipulation.
She was in that honeymoon trip with Zosia for like 2 weeks tops. With the hate she's getting from the fandom you'd think she was gone for a year.
And of course she snaps back to reality once she's reminded of her experiences at the conversion therapy camp, it's literally where most of her trauma and problems with identity stem from.
she went to Vegas and learned how Diabate caught many more flies with honey instead of vinegar, then returned to ABQ to do just that, it was as explicit as this show gets and all the downvotes in the world won't change this
the reality of her emotional state doesn't change the fact that in the episode literally titled "Charm Offensive" Carol and Zosia are playing a game of chess with each other, and it's not until the finale (when her missing rook arrives) that we learn Carol's position on the board has become weakened
we are in 95% agreement on this but i don't understand why it's contentious that Carol tried to outplay the hive and got lovebombed into temporary submission, she's not just being tossed about on the seas of abandonment, she has clear agency she is acting upon
Either you never participated in those shows’ subs or you’re rage baiting.
I feel like this also parallels her alcoholism in a way. Alcoholics have to hit rock bottom sometimes before they're motivated to make a change. Carol going off with Zosia and abandoning her plans to save the infected people was her rock bottom. Once the reality of the situation truly hit her and she realized her selfishness and complacence was giving the infected more time to figure out how to infect her, she snapped out of it and chose to go the more painful and difficult route of resistance.
A weak, desperate character choosing fantasy over reality is one of the most powerful and popular themes explored in cinema and storytelling, from Solaris to Mulholland Drive. I don’t really understand why some people aren’t accepting it in Pluribus.
Yup, and that’s very much what Carol without Helen is. Even with Helen, she was selfish (breathalyzer) and elitist (relationship with fans) with a superiority complex. I don’t think she ever really wanted to save humanity before. She wanted Helen back. She wanted to keep her freedom. And she wanted her comforts and conveniences, so this fantasy was a good enough replacement, until they came for her freedom.
I also don’t think people properly understand the weird mental FU they’re pulling on her. In the midst of grief they drop her dream woman at her doorstep that would basically do anything to make her happy. That would mess anyone up even for a few moments lol
1000% agreed. A lot of people are up in arms for how Carol was a hypocrite up until the social isolation and the love interest but she’s human! She is delving into the feelings of complete acceptance and it felt good for once. She’s been guarded her entire life and now “Zosia” is giving her an outlet for these emotions. It’s hard to deny.
If Carol was a man, would we get this response? But I think the strange viewer response is why it had to be her. We need to come to terms that we’re still animals with ingrained social needs and a barely functioning brain. People rashly think if they were in her position, they’d make different choices.. but would you? It’s hard to overcome our own biological imperative.
I agree with you. The show would be dull if all characters make the right decision 100% of the time. Carol had a bunch of issues before the joining, I am on board with her mind being scrambled trying to work through what to do.
I personally needed this finale to finally relate to Carol. In the beginning I saw her as an ignorant spoiled brat - someone who doesn't accept the situation and simply sits in the corner with her legs crossed, someone who doesn't take any accountability for her actions and doesn't even acknowledge other people unless they say exactly what she wants to hear.
In the finale, however, when she talked with Manousos and caught herself defending the Hive as infected PEOPLE instead of 'mysterious evil doers', and even when making a decision to escape with Zosia (which is somewhat ignorant, but also quite understandably human and something - I feel - she needed to grow emotionally in order to do), and especially when having the conversation in the cabin, where she faced her own delusion and decided to abandon it - I am finally seeing her as a real protagonist whom I respect, relate to, support wholeheartedly and am interested to see what decisions will she make in the future.
This is great context that I hadn’t considered, thank you!
Fuck Around and Find Out at its finest form
It's also important to remember that a big part of this show is that Carol is a miserable human surrounded by the temptation of happiness. This was her "the last temptation of Christ" moment. One last chance to accept a version of the Hive's happiness. Upon realizing that her individuality was forever at risk...She had to give it up.
It all made perfect sense to me. I really don’t get people who are bitching and moaning that Carol is running around in mental circles. She’s become privy to new information, new threats, and a new hope/ally. It tracks perfectly.
This is a hero saves the world story. Vince has told us many times.
Walt wasn't as bad at the end of season 1 as he was towards the end of the series.
Similarly, Carol will not be as heroic at the end of this season as she will be at the end of the series.
For those who know the hero's journey, Season 1 is the call and Manny in episode 9 is the Call to Adventure. It is very common for the hero to refuse the call.
Some thought they were watching the story. The story is just beginning.
I agree. carol likes to think she doesn’t depend on others but I think she confuses a need for autonomy with independence. her actions make sense, she’s neurotic, she needs to feel like she is in control, she’s stubborn, she lacks self awareness and she avoids/ self medicates so she doesn’t have to deal with difficult emotions. she won’t hear it if someone else tells her she is wrong, she has to come to that conclusion on her own.
it was easy for me to scream at my tv that she’s a sell out when in that situation I would have cracked long before carol. her behaviours are both annoying and amusing cos they are so relatable. I love carol and it’s just more realistic that she is so fallible and human.
I feel similarly about all the immune characters, the way every one of them is reacting to this insane situation feels understandable even if they are mean or selfish or naive or lack empathy towards each other, they are just surviving
You understand a show / movie is well written when the characters behave like actual human beings. Humans often make irrational, incoherent choices, it's part of who we are.
Carol has been alone for too long (I actually believe the hive purposefully stepped away to instill that feeling in her so she would eventually miss and need them to come back), this does bad things for someone's psyche, it's understandable.
People don't understand how "narrative fiction" works. I have to believe most people making takes like that have barely read any books.
I wonder if Carol would have eventually “snapped out of it” if the hive didn’t have access to her frozen eggs. Only by realizing that the hive was a month away from converting her did she take back on her original cause of finding a cure. She had embraced the hive like the other 12 unconnected people.
Agreed! Season 2 Carol is going to double down on her quest to save the world and herself. Also, it’s more interesting to have Carol and Manousos to start in conflict and then come to work together, than if they were on the same page immediately.
Hear hear!
Yeah I think you're spot on with this one. Some advice you can't just tell people, they have to live it first.
It reminds me of how there are some things people just have to live to learn. E.g. for me it was work-life balance - people had told me to maintain it, but I couldn't recognise my limits until I'd actually experienced burnout.