It really feels, to me, pretty messed up that they started using Carol's eggs to re-create stem cells. They probably started doing it the same day that they learned that's what it would take to change her.
It puts into perspective Zosia returning to Carol. Her mission is to placate Carol long enough by appealing to what she wants or needs so that by the time they create her personalized version of the virus they can just sneakily give it to her without her knowing.
And I do really think that's what they'd do. They had no problem tricking hundreds if not thousands of people early on into changing, and doing it by force, so why would this be any different? I'm fully convinced the only reason the Hive is nice to the immune people is because it makes them more pliable and willing to convert. And that's IT. Especially after that scene in the village with that poor girl. The facade instantly melted away as soon as they saw the virus begin to take effect. That girl is dead.
The HIve speaks in manipulation and, so far, very often does things behind the backs of the immune without their knowledge. They weaponize the fact that they cannot lie by only telling the immune exactly what is asked and nothing else. Additionally, the HIve has learned that it's not technically lying if they don't respond so they keep trying to get away with that but so far it seems unsuccessful with a little prodding but that's to be expected at this point.
I also honestly do not believe the hive are people. I think it's the virus THINKING it's people because they have all this information and memories and feelings of people. They can say what someone would say or do but it all feels so clinical, no? Like they're just regurgitating information instead of actually being knowledgeable about it. It's just what they know based on who has been absorbed into this Hive.
The scene in the village was eerie, but I was 100% expecting it. We saw exactly the same thing in Vegas
As soon as Koumba left the room and there was no audience to perform for, the facade of his James Bond fantasy immediately dropped away, and everyone just went silent and started tidying up in unison.
That's exactly how Zosia would act if Carol were joined. Mission acomplished, purpose fulfilled. She'd just silently walk away, probably to perform some mundane task.
I think it was a timely reminder that, although the hive can put on a convincing act, it is a truly alien way of existing, and everything it does for the unjoined is just that, an act to make them feel comfortable until they can find a way to infect them.
It was so creepy. I felt like it was odd they had created a whole ritual to initiate this girl, but then it instantly made sense when the facade fell away. It was all created to convince her to join. They probably said they would live in harmony in the village and life would continue as normal.
Yeah. It really underlined how the entire facade was created and maintained just for her, and literally the second it wasn't required any more, it was done away with instantly.
Did the hive lie to her? Presumably not overtly, but she's a young girl from a fairly isolated community. If she made assumptions then the hive would do it's whole 'answering questions like a lawyer' bit and let her incorrect assumptions stand.
We saw again quite clearly with Carol and Zosia that you need to be pretty direct to get straight answers from it.
There was one interesting lie to her. The brief "Its a beautiful blue sky" conversation demonstrated they were acting, dishonestly implying that they speak together
Dude!!! So many levels to the hives performance
could you elaborate? i don't recall that specifically
Two blurbs (I think it was the aunt and the cousin of the girl that was being turned) were doing that as smalltalk to each other, which we know the hive would never do when no unturned one is around
That girl since the joining has been surrounded by friends and family who have been playing roles, acting normal.
Then she's turned.
That scene really showed how far the hive would go to manipulate an innocent person.
It puts into perspective what Laxmi’s life must be like. She is head of her family, raising her little boy who needs his mommy, and there are probably a lot of hive actors creating a fake “normal” life for her. Shopkeepers, school teachers, neighbors, etc. with her friends and family all telling her how wonderful it is to be joined. Eventually, she will choose to be joined or the hive will figure out how to force her.
It’s actually pretty unsettling when you think about it. Ravi going to school routinemust be an elaborate stage play put on specifically for Laxmi. I can easily imagine the teachers, students, and staff all performing their roles while she’s there, keeping up the illusion of a normal school day.
Then once she drops him off and leaves, everyone probably disperses to do completely different, mundane things around the city, only to regroup again before pickup so the whole act can restart seamlessly. Meanwhile the hive is likely tracking Laxmi nonstop through drones and CCTV, just to make sure she never accidentally runs into anyone out of context and realizes something is off.
Truman Show on roids
Worse, because its a Truman that knows she's in the show and still stays ignorant.
That’s such a good point, I hadn’t considered any one else’s reality until this last episode. They’re probably showing her how harmonious the rest of her family is, how happy, and she’s dying to join them.
This comment might be kind of out of left field, and I have no idea if the writers would go this way, but imagining the surviving humans and potential factions within them on if they should try to unplurb the world, I started wondering if Laxmi is or would end up a "necromancer."
That is, she wants to stay human but plays house with the plurbs and even possibly brings back ones. Like she just got some other similar looking old indian guy and asked the hive to adopt her dead grandfather's personality and perpetually act it out. The show hasn't hit on if this kind of "resurrection" is possible, but I feel like it could be. Maybe she has other long lost loves and family members there, acting out her ideal life in her city. And anyway, it would be a point of conflict with the others because it might endanger some of her plurb family.
I sort of hope we get to see Laxmi realize the truth of the situation — it feels important for us to see that specifically because she’s such a true believer (and she’s been a real dick to Carol so it would also be satisfying to watch realization dawn across her face)
Laxmi will either be convinced by her family to voluntarily join or the hive will find a way to force her. All they need is “windfallen fruit” from her body, just like Carol. Manousos and Koumba likely already donated stem cells without even knowing it.
The hive cannot lie to the girl, so they would not have told her that. The ritual was there to comfort her through something that was very scary for her. a lot of people are calling it manipulation, but I think they were honestly trying to make the transition as comfortable as possible for her. Once she was part of the hive, nothing more needed to be done and she now completely understood what was going on and looked really thrilled about it.
I agree that the hive mind is not human at all, but has access to all the human memories and skills. That poor girl is not really there anymore just her memories, skills, and of course, her living corpse.
But maybe they will figure out a way to bring her back.
That poor kid goat.
They might not have lied directly but told her stuff like „yes we will all be together. Moma, aunti, cousin and you“
Just not mentioning that they will abandon the village and their way of life will stop existing the second she’s tired
They probably didn't say that and just left her to imagine that that's how it would be.
Just like Laxmi would be allowed to falsely imagine a future relationship with her son, beyond a generic love for everybody equally.
But I don't see Laxmi agreeing to the procedure. She'd want to make sure that her son doesn't starve within the decade.
It also shows us something so insidious about the Hive. They steep the process in local culture like it's a sacred ritual to lure in Kusimaya. Once she joins, that culture is over. They'll move to a population center that is more efficient. They take whatever clothes are available. They will never talk to each other or sing their songs or follow their traditions. That is inefficient and pointless from their perspective.
The Hive is committing cultural genocide on a global scale.
Yea they have rules, but they're placating the survivors & putting on a show to distract them until they can turn them. I'm surprised DNA isn't a possibility. But, that would kind of ruin the show.
And people think Carol is just mad that she can't get with Zosia properly. This is one of her main concerns. The loss of Art, Individuality, human history and culture. Pro-hivers are beyond insane.
IMHO we already knew this, but I think for some viewers who don't appreciate their own culture/society, they had to see it in the context of another culture/society that they did value in order for it to get through.
Exactly. I know we’re all annoyed with Carol for getting sucked up into the act after all the shit she gave the others for it. I appreciated seeing that side of her, though. I mean, who wouldn’t be tempted by the opportunity to explore the world with someone who doesn’t judge you and you don’t have to deal with other people? If anything, I would have liked her transition to go a little slower (I know, I know). She seemed a little too eager to ignore her own aversions to everything Zosia is. Trying too hard to believe the act. I would have liked to see more of the struggle but I guess we’d need more episodes for that.
To be fair, she's in mourning for her partner, everyone she's ever known is gone, society is gone, and she was left isolated for an extended period of time.
I get why she's acting the way she's acting.
She'd already been fantasizing about Zosia for a while 'Why does she have to be so fuckable?'. She went through the stages of grief & ultimately didn't wanna be alone.
Honestly? I'd go for it too. I'd have a harem of like 5 models and a private jet taking me everywhere to do whatever I want.
Up to this point the show has been almost flawless, which is why this part feels off. Carol suddenly thinking she was loved in some special, exclusive way comes across as a bit forced, like a device to move the story forward. She had already seen that the hive is willing to give Diabate anything, just as they do with her. Even Zosia was ready to join Diabate’s harem and was only stopped because of Carol.
What also doesn’t fully work for me is Carol believing they would stop trying to convert her, especially after Zosia openly admitted in the previous episode that everything was a façade meant to distract her. I can buy Carol giving in emotionally or sexually, but actually believing the story they sold her feels less convincing and more like plot convenience.
Yeah the part where she said “how could you love us both the same when you barely know him?” did feel a bit forced. Or rushed, like I said. I know others are complaining this season was too slow, but I think if we got more than one episode between Carol’s utter loneliness and her running away with Zosia, it might have been more believable.
I could buy that she hadn’t considered the eggs at all as a way to turn her, so in that regard she felt safe. Maybe she should have still been on her guard, though, knowing that they wouldn’t stop looking for ways to turn her.
They went non-vocal, but I imagine there's a continuing conversation. What really got me was the way the baby goat's distress was totally ignored at the end. I've been one calling Carol self-absorbed (which I still think she is) but that really showed how little regard the Hive actually has for anything else. Emotionally they couldn't care any less about other creatures. I figure those goats and chickens won't see the end of the week vs the wildlife in the area.
The culture and the life in the village was all an act too. They are clearly abandoning the village and the native Peruvian ways. Probably they will all go sleep in a large building and assist in sending resources to the huge antenna.
The baby goat was the bookend to the theme around Carol’s eggs. She tells Zosia that nobody who loved her would take her eggs. Nobody who loved the baby goat would abandon it. Kusimayu truly loved the baby goat before turning. After turning, there’s no more love. Not for the goat and not for each other.
There is no “conversation”, it’s all one brain
That's certainly one interpretation of what's going on. Since we don't know definitively though there's no telling for sure
It’s the definition of a hivemind lol
A bunch of minds can connect in a bunch of different ways.
we literally saw two hive members exchange words in ep 9. It was well out of the girl's earshot so can't have been for her.
It was for her, we've seen the same in Vegas. They put on the act for the immune person, regardless of if they're "on-screen" to increase verisimilitude in case of anything going awry.
What? When? They explicitly don’t do that
When they were putting on a show of acting normal for her.
I mean, a lot of humans don't really care about other creatures.
True. And a lot of humans are self absorbed. But generally, the ones that go around proclaiming their respect for life and all creatures actually would be careful about carelessly putting domestic animals in harms way
This is exactly the moment that I made up my mind about the hive. The total disregard towards the animals, especially the baby goat that she had held in her arms just a moment earlier was nothing to her. It was just cruel, no matter how peaceful and caring they want you to think they are, it's all a show. The biological imperative is all they care about.
Fair. I saw it more like respecting life isn't really about emotional care, more just maintainence and achieving their ultimate goals (and the goat - and probably all of the human bodies - are not singly important).
Those domesticated animals took resources away from the hive, so it's more survival of the fittest. They don't have to kill it but they are not going to put resources into helping it survive.
This show has a lot of scenes with predictable payoffs like this. I don't mean that in a bad way though.
It was such a good reminder. I was literally considering that the hive might actually have stronger "feelings" for Carol cause she was famous before the joining. Like the large amount of fans meant she had more sway with the hive. Then after that opening scene I was like, damn they had me lol of course they dont care for Carol. The #1 objective is to join and transmit the signal. Makes them even creepier tbh
I felt like I was going to cry when the little goat chased after her screaming for her to come back.
I was thrown off initially cause the clock was post joining but it felt authentically old world. The freeing of the goat and chickens was excellent too. Made you realize their intentions have nothing to do with actual life or fulfillment of life. That poor goat will be dead without the care of her person.
It was torture to watch the first scene because we knew how it would end, but it was a reminder and well done because watching Carol once she chooses la chica over el mundo you could see it's the same thing. If Carol got absorbed a blank faced body who used to named Zosia would walk away. A group would come over to take any needed resources from her home. Lights off Albequerque. The audience knows it and we are all watching to see if Carol will realize it.
It’s weird bc I didn’t initially even read it as evil or anything, everyone has a smile including the girl as she wakes up and then later opens the animal gate. Like while the scene and set up was eerie, I still felt that “harmony” vibe once she was done.
There was just no more need for anything else to be said or done after, she knows what it’s like now and will go on to promote it to whoever else needs to hear how great it is.
It’s hard bc (again with the easy religion metaphor), everyone in that village genuinely is excited for her to join and experience peace. They aren’t maliciously manipulating her in their POV. It’s just super unnerving seeing everything shift once she’s part of the hive and “gets it.”
Is it an act, though? Or is it just not necessary once the person isn’t in the room (las vegas) or converted (Peru)? That’s what I love about this show. No easy answers or interpretations.
This is an interesting take to me, specifically because I don't find their "acts" to be sinister, or their silence to be mundane.
The hive isn't faking being happy, they just don't need to speak. Why communicate out loud when they can read each other's minds.
Which is why I’m permanently on the side saying they’re evil. They are liars and behave in deceitful ways just to rid people of their individuality.
The way I've seen it is that a lot of our human rituals are for the purpose of connection, but the hive mind has no need for that. I have seen that as the same reason for their lack of art production. They don't need it.
I don't think they are all good, but I don't think they are evil either. Just... Different perspectives; different needs.
Hey Zosey, can I go ahead and get the exact location of this research lab where the “cure” is being developed? Also, can we revisit that bomb request?
Yo for real.
“Gimme ten more hand grenades and the address of my eggs. Leave the door unlocked, bitch.”
"10 more"!?
"I can't fucking believe this. You're ripping us off for box of grenades. This is bullshit"
Give me a Ryder truck and a few thousand pounds of ammonium nitrate.
Yeah, how she’s gonna get them now? She would have more time if she destroyed them. Couldn’t she said “you can bring me anything give me my eggs back”
They aren't going to give her her eggs back. This is made pretty clear by everything except saying it outright. The hive will do what you want to an extent. There things they won't do. I don't understand how you didn't get this.
In all seriousness, maybe would’ve worked to feign interest and commitment to joining (I think it could’ve worked… otherwise Zosia wouldn’t have even tried convincing her again).
Then ask to see where these eggs are and what they’re doing to them. Once there proceed to pull the 9mm you have tucked in your purse and go on a rampage.
Ok I haven’t thought the second part through but I think there’s a way in.. now that Carol is an enemy again it’ll be much harder
they have all the psychologists and fbi interrogators in the world, i don't think you can lie to them
Ya if they can’t even harm a fucking plant i seriously doubt they’d tortute carol with an FBI “interrogator”
i was more referring to their ability to detect lies
They weren't sure if Carol was being sarcastic when asking for the grenade.
The fbi isn’t good at that so why even bring them up?
idk it was just the first example i thought of of someone whose job it is to know when someone is lying
If thats true then Zosia should’ve known better, how do you explain her trying to get Carol on her side, thereby spooking her out, spilling the beans on the stem cells and ruining everything?
So called experts should’ve know that there’s no chance in hell that would work on her. So I figure if they’re that gullible perhaps Carol could’ve feigned interest.
The Hive has knowledge but not wisdom. They understand the happiness they feel, they don’t really understand Carol’s insistence on clinging to her individuality when she could be as happy as them. They think that anyone who understood how good it feels to be joined would want to experience that. So when Carol expressed that she was as happy as it was possible to be in that moment, Zosia saw that as an opening to pitch being joined. She doesn’t really comprehend that Carol views joining as death regardless of the benefit.
You absolutely can they have a lot of knowledge but they don’t “get” people.
She was able to trick Zosia into getting drugged pretty easily.
Maybe she should have done the same thing again. Fake friendliness/possible interest in joining then lock her up in her house. Give her more drugs but go easy on the dosage this time. If Plurbs try to rescue her she can just scream at them.
Poking holes in the logic of the plurbs is fun but it appears certain questions and actions will force the hive into some sort of defense mode. Like when she straight up asked if the process can be reversed and they didn't say yes or no but that alone told her the anser but they also wouldn't tell her how to reverse it or when she asked for another grenade and kept upping the request and the hivemind only got hesitant once the request got to an atom bomb.
I don't think we know exactly what takes precedent over one action or another but it appears so far that survival is at the top. So any question that threatens that turns the hivemind into evasive lawyer mode.
So...the hivemind probably has dozens of lab locations working on the process. So Carol would need to ask for all lab locations...except the hivemind might have people working on it in some random basement that isn't technically a lab. The hivemind would start doing stuff like that. Kind of like how virus does a really good job at hiding in our bodies.
I'm sure the Gilligan and the writers have a whiteboard just like Carol where they can trace scenarios through to see if it passes the smell test.
Very good points, she would never be able to get rid of all the locations, it would be like whack-a-mole. And the hive is good at being semantically sneaky, like when they said they'd "prefer" to be vegetarian.
Usually harvested eggs aren't enormous in number and stocks are easily checked for completeness. I think it's likely they would just refuse to give locations or access, just like they refuse to tell her how to reverse the joining. They can and do refuse direct requests that would block their spreading. I guarantee they would refuse a "stop building the giant antenna" request also.
I did not get hesitation from the nuke conversation, I got concern.
It wasn’t “Uhhh should we give you a nuke?” It was “uhh are you really sure you want that?”
At least that’s what I got from the performance
https://preview.redd.it/wzpenouqk89g1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d3061f1c9461b64c3b7e9d8e110866cc7100c25
They can’t lie but the can just not say anything. We’ve seen it before when Carol asked how to reverse the Plurbing. Also the phone message we heard a million times says they will “try” to get her anything she wants/needs, they don’t say they will always give her everything.
Yes. Have this water first.
I think that’s one of those things where you just have to suspend your disbelief. I DO think the plurbs research on overcoming the immunity might backfire on them though, that data would be invaluable in developing a cure
But who should develop the cure? No scientists left
That's a great question. Manousos seems to have figured something out with radio frequencies. And it was frequencies that brought the virus in the first place. Plus, the hive still has to answer questions even tho they can lie by omission.
I don’t think so. They’ll do whatever you ask except not infecting you. We’ve known from the very beginning they’ll ignore people’s wishes about that.
I don’t think she wants to destroy her eggs though. Some part of her is probably still hoping she can use them in the future, after she saves the world.
She withheld answering if they had a way to do it without her permission so I assume she'd withhold this too. But it was frustrating that Carol didn't try some things.
Thinking in terms of historical death tolls, she could drop, like, 10 atom bombs and it would likely kill fewer people than if she were to yell at them. She could target all the facilities that had anything to do with producing the stem cells or whatever and even if it killed everyone working there, it would be "less dangerous" to them than if she had a screaming tantrum at Zosia.
“Now clear everyone out and nuke it please”
I mean, they did revisit the bomb request.
I'm surprised it wasn't at least asked if she could remove consent from them messing with her eggs.
when they dropped that container, I was half-sure it was the container with all their research on her eggs
Can you imagine the scene?
Zosia is lovey dovey and girlfriend like to Carol. Right up until the moment she becomes infected and joins the hive.
Then like drones they go their separate ways doing tasks. Just like how the fake villagers stopped singing.
And how the goat got abandoned
That part made me sad because he ran after the girl and just got left behind.
I choose to believe the goat will follow her, so the hive takes care of it.
Never forgive or forget when they did to poor Goatey.
Carol is basically the same as the other guy at this point, just using the hive for sex and personal enjoyment. She just thinks her way is more moral.
I dunno. I think she formed a legitimate attachment in her mind to Zosia, or at least what Zosia was presenting to be.
She became visibly jealous when Zosia talked about loving Manny the same as she loves Carol.
So yea. of course she thinks it's moral because she was seeing it as traditional relationship.
Totally. She’s completely deluded herself into thinking Zosia is different, and she’s making Zosia perpetuate this by referring to herself as “I” instead of “we.” Lack of human contact has changed carol; before the hive leaving she would have seen her own actions as icky.
This is completely the same as people falling in love with ChatGPT.
This series actually made me reconsider using any llms
Of course she did. The hive picked Zosia out of the billions of people on the planet because she resembled the female version of the central character of Carol's book series.
They had no other family members to manipulate Carol through so they picked someone they knew she would be attracted to.
Manny?
His name is Manousos Oviedo. He is not one of them.
He wishes to save the world.
You killed his father. Prepare to die.
Yeah Carol was fooled, for a while. They put on a good enough act that she momentarily forgot what the Hive was.
Exactly. It's girls are looking for romance, boys are looking for sex. Which is kind of evolutionary
As I said in a previous week: they’re 100% honest. They’re not 100% forthright.
One of my favorite books put this concept really well into words: “I only lie with the truth.”
Also the Hive aren't nice. They're friendly. There's a difference.
total manipulation from the hive.... Carol was just fooling herself thinking that Zosia actually loves her or would let her not join. And Manousos, he is smart....aside from the finger snap....lol
What if it was the hive who told the other immunes to ice out Carol this whole time
this gif lmao
i dont doubt it at all.
The same way they led Carol to believe Manousos was dangerous?
No, it said he wasn't dangerous to her. The World knows Manousos wants to end it.
They still worded it in a way to sow distrust.
No, it answered in a direct way that was heavy with subtext that Carol would have picked up on if she wasn't fucking it.
Maybe the hive just told the other immunes about how all the plurbs had to abandon Carol to stay safe and of course that includes their plurbed family members and just let the other immunes draw their own conclusions about what that could mean for them if they stayed connected to Carol.
She was truly in deep when Zosia telling Carol she loved her the same as Manousos didn’t snap her out of it.
Playing devil's advocate here. It's already been established by Vince that the hive loves Carol like a parent loves their child. And putting aside the assumption that people are being mind-controlled instead of being elevated to a higher consciousness and understanding among humanity, which I know is incredibly unpopular here, where's the line between being "manipulative" and being "concerned" for Carol like a parent would? When a parent grounds you for taking drugs, is that being manipulative?
And for those who say Carol should have the final decision making authority, I'm not so sure that an ex-alcoholic with depression and anger issues would be the best person to make that decision for themselves, just like how you wouldn't trust a person on suicide watch to go off on their own while in a state of psychosis. To an enlightened being, Carol might as well be a toddler whose suffering is all self-inflicted.
This is exactly the kind of conversation Vince hoped to spark. The hive can be a metaphor for the benevolent government, who wants us to get vaccinated and send your pedo brother to jail. Some people would prefer the brother to be free, and to die of preventable diseases.
Well I don't like this at all because now you've made me think.
That’s why I like this show so much. The Plubs are pretty undeniably thoroughly evil in impact and goals, but simultaneously (appear to be) acting in what they truly and honestly perceive to be humanity’s best interests and with good intent, from their view.
They are seemingly acting purely based on their drive for survival and reproduction. They don't literally need everyone to assimilate, but they're a virus so that's what they're going to do.
Well I guess it's more fun and comforting to circlejerk around hating the hive (unironically being a hivemind) than to be challenged about one's own beliefs and assumptions
This is very well put and I’ve been having the same kinds of thoughts throughout the show. Folks seem to have a visceral reaction to the plurbs, but humans do have a tendency to believe we’re the most special and important things in the universe. Especially in the utterly individualistic West. Personally, I consider this belief unwarranted.
Really stupid question, but is that less rude in Paraguay?
Brazilian who lives near Paraguai: it's really rude as it's seen as a way to communicate with animals
Not Paraguayan but close enough. It's something you'd do to ask your helper to pass you a tool, something a mother would do to ask their child for an object.
It'd be considered quite rude in a context like this, in an i'll mannered kind of way, nothing too 'violent'.
It’s also sad bc freezing your eggs is something you do for something hopeful and happy in the future and it has been turned into a weapon against her :(
"They can say what someone would say or do but it all feels so clinical, no?"
One thing is that it's actually hard to tell WHAT the hive actually is because we don't hear them communicate without a non-hive human present.
So potentially they do have 'conversations' with 'each other' via the electromagnetic field in a way we don't understand. Does one of the members see something interesting and shares it? Do they have jokes? We honestly don't really know.
Do they have thought processes? Like, for example: when dealing with some of Carol's tricker questions (about the Atom Bomb, about things that make them uncomfortable, etc...) there were awkward pauses. In those moments was there a collective "oh shit, what do we say here" moment?
Same with their "lying by omission" moments. Are they strategizing how to hide info from Carol (like not mentioning the eggs---> stem cells angle until she directly asked)?
It would be a different show, but I feel we would need a "Zosia POV" episode where we "hear" the hive voice in her head the entire episode. But I don't think we'll ever get a true sense of the hive's inner monologue so to speak.
I would bet those awkward pauses hivemind use only to indicate "please, no Carol" and there is no delay.
We kind of do know some of this. The joined don't have 'conversations' with each other because there is no longer any 'each other' and nobody to converse with. It's just the Hive, and all individual memories/skills/continuing input is sent to that top layer as needed. They definitely do not have jokes, because they're not conversing. The Hive is all about efficiency in spreading, and telling itself jokes don't help it be more efficient in spreading.
Yes, the hive thinks. Are you wondering if each individual is "weighing in", because if so no. There are no individuals in the hive. Those pauses you mentioned are in fact the hive thinking about how to answer, but also it trying to figure out the least damaging way to say "yes" because the answer was always going to be some version of yes.
Yes because the hive does think
Don't know how badly we need this. The Hive speaks through everyone. We know what it's thinking pretty much every time it talks.
The nature of the field is that they don't all experience everything directly. One member has to feel something and then communicate that more broadly.
Zosia INDIVIDUALLY gets a massage and then communicates the feeling electromagnetically to the entire group
SO what's not to say brain functions are not ALSO originated from inviduals and then communicated electromagntically?
They are always connected to the network so to speak. Things are filtered out so that everyone isn't constantly experiencing everything but they are always "on", always "sending".
They detail this in specific when Zosia is getting the massage, and show it every time the hive crashes. If they could pick and choose what gets broadcast/sent to the hive in that manner, there wouldn't be any threat or danger of the entire network crashing when Carol/Manousos triggers any one individual.
Starting a new season with a cold open from the hive perspective would be so interesting. It could communicate very viscerally how different they are.
"They" are not a hive. There are no individuals.
It's a singularity. It only roleplays around the unjoined.
I think the Hive is “nice” to the immune because they are the ultimate enemy. Their preferred state of existence is harmony. The immune can break that harmony at any moment. An immune person could disable one member of the hive with screaming for 3 days and every single one of them would die of thirst. They are terrified of the immune, that’s why they placate them.
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I was thinking on the lying by omission piece. When Carol asks if they’re spying on her, they don’t answer the question, they just respond with more questions. Very apt
they can also exit if asked questions they really really do not want to answer. it's very fucked up and gets more fucked up with time. Carol is stubborn, even after she learns that the other 12 have grievances about her behavior, she doesn't try to reconnect. but man, I would probably have a long tantrum over the world ending and my wife dying too. so, Carol is nobody who has her back until Manousos shows up.
I hope we get to see more of the lives of the 12, now 11 survivors, what they've been up to, really. probably some fucked up stuff too
I think Laxmi is just pretending that her family is the same as before and is happy as long as that is not challenged. It’s probably the same for the other unjoined whose family members survived the joining.
I wonder about the Yemeni muezzin that Zosia mentioned E3. I can picture him still performing the call to prayer five times a day so that throngs of plurbs can kneel and face Mecca just to keep him happy.
wow, you are so right. now when we have seen what kind of a show the others can put on to convince someone... whew.... imagine that group prayer
Carol's vacation with Zosia was more or less the same sort of thing, a facsimile of a happy couple who keeps to themselves. From everything we see of Carol and Helen they are always very private and solitary, this was not the couple that was looking for friends everywhere they went and that's what we see with her and Zosia. It was only after the sales pitch for her to join that the facade broke and she realized that it couldn't last. Had the Hive just agreed to let her stay unjoined I think that Carol may have been content to just keep pretending indefinitely.
WE probably did. I mean WE had been clear from the beginning that the goal is to assimilate the immunes, regardless of whether the immunes want it to happen. Carol and Zosia specifically talk about that in episode three (or two but I think three). Carol says she has agency but only until WE figures out how to convert her and Zosia says yep, sorry, biological imperative.
I knew after the scene in Vegas that either WE would use her eggs to create stem cells or they’d simply find another way to do it. The issue wasn’t the conversion, it was the need for permission to harvest the bone marrow. So once WE have a way to convert someone, WE will do it.
Exactly. She told them to repeat what she said word for word on the big Vegas sign but they didn't, they are semantically sneaky. They said something that only implied they wouldn't do it against her will.
Right. I can't remember what the sign said, but Carol said she doesn't give them permission to "lay a finger" on her. WE agreed, of course. I thought, well, ok, WE'll find way to do it without laying a finger on her. And WE did.
I just think this makes for a less interesting story tbh. Part of what makes the Hive so interesting to me is the implication that they find Carol and the others just as baffling and alien as she finds them. There's certainly some amount of manipulation in their behavior towards Carol, but there also seems to be a very real fascination element to it and I'll be disappointed if the show goes in an "actually they were EVIL the whole time and it was all fake!" direction.
I agree. I struggle to put into words what it is about the hive that I can’t think of them as “evil” exactly. I like the way you put it. I have a kind of cognitive dissonance trying to understand how they “think,” or what decisions lead to actions for them. It’s like, if someone from a culture other than mine practices something that is considered totally normal for them but “wrong” in mine, I’d struggle to understand why the other culture does it even though logically from their perspective it’s not wrong at all. If that makes sense.
Manousos says it best - treating an ant and a man equally is evil.
The interesting part is in the nuance. The Hive will just as easily rebuild an entire diner as it will avoid hurting a spider. It loves Manousos as much as Carol. It loves Carol’s books as much as Shakespeare. To the Hive, it’s all the same thing.
This isn’t love, it isn’t affection, it isn’t fascination. It has no thoughts or feelings. It wants to spread. That’s it.
Do you feel bad for Carol? What about the poor dude who traveled countries and jungles just to meet up with her and save the world, while almost dying in the process only to see how she thought of him as dangerous and discarded him when he was trying to find answers doing what she did the first 7 episodes of the show. Then she came back to the guy when she found out they didn't really need her consent.
It is hypocritical to call the other human traitors to man-kind while playing hero, only to completely change when she manage to have sex with them.
I think it was more the idea he was willing to actually kill them if needed that really threw her off from wanting to work with him. But yeah I think she went too far down the pro-Others path and should apologize for being willing to throw away an opportunity to help save the world just because she caught feelings for one of them
I think that's the point of Manousos role in this episode, and him asking her "Do you want to save the world or get the girl?"
He's meant to be a reflection of Carol and how the other survivors treated her. I'm a bit surprised she didn't acknowledge that.
Yeah, the selfishness of that really blew me away. Blowing off manny to go prancing around the globe banging someone who can’t say no, only giving a shit* when it affects you and your freedom is at risk. I’ve liked her the whole series but damn. That was so cruel.
I think it was meant to show how the hive essentially won her over/tricked her into supporting them, just as they did with the other immune people early on. She was basically regurgitating word for word what the others were saying to her in the beginning (“have you even tried asking them anything?” or however she said it, which is what was said to her in one of the first episodes)
Yeah I def felt as if we were experiencing the whole air force one immune meeting from the other peoples point of view.
are we forgetting that these characters are living through a MONUMENTALLY unprecedented clusterfuck of a scenario? Like the entire world as they know it has been turned wildly upside down, and everyone they knew previously is effectively dead.
I'm willing to cut her some slack.
YES! My whole day would be thrown off if the car needed a jump-start and I was a couple of minutes later than usual getting to work. Carol is a new widow who didn't get to properly mourn the loss of her wife. Oh, and on top of that, the world almost literally ended. And the entire might of The Hive is trying to psychologically manipulate her, using some of her deepest secrets and desires as triggers. She's just a person going through a lot right now. I think it would be unrealistic to expect her to be 100% consistent in her actions, or to immediately spot every prevarication wielded by Zosia or the others.
100%, she's only human and people are acting as if this scenario wouldn't affect them at all
They are quite literally manipulating her and the others. You can call diabate or carol rapists, but that undercuts what the others are doing. Humans are social and emotional creatures. They lost all of humanity and the hive purposefully sent then envoys of people they would find the most sexually appealing. What do you expect will happen? The people they control are victims, but so are the survivors. They have to grasp with the fact that they never have to have a human touch again. Manousos seems to be okay, but he strikes me as someone who was a loner before the outbreak. He had an easier transition than literally everyone else.
How many people could barely sit through a month of lockdown while still having access to socializing online, video calls, endless options for media entertainment, social distancing activities, etc. Carol had absolutely none of that for over a month after witnessing the death of her partner and the loss of the human race as we know it. She was even denied a zoom invite by the only humans left on earth.
There’s obviously valid arguments to be made about the morality of relations with the hive mind but it’s crazy to me how many people are reducing Carol’s actions to just having fun with a fuck buddy. She’s very clearly insanely lonely and miserable and wants companionship, right or wrong Zosia is able to give that to her even if it’s fleeting and not genuine. I doubt any of us here would act any better especially after being isolated in that way.
Carol’s wife also died a little more than a month ago, so she’s also dealing with immense grief. I think what she did is excusable
So it was immense grief that made her bang a hive mind stranger in her wife’s bed 20 feet away from where she buried her less than two months ago?! Totally excusable lol.
If the world essentially ended and changed overnight and you went through an unfathomable trauma and were denied any human contact for over a month then yeah it’s excusable to want to feel something nice even if it isn’t real
Wow, what is this, empathy?
I’ve been cutting her slack this entire time and have liked her character this whole time. I just think it’s disgusting that once someone else genuinely wants to help save humanity she’s like no I want to go fuck my fake gf that physically can’t turn me down. Also let me shoot manny. The great and perfect Zosia even told her they don’t think Manny would hurt her.
I’m allowed to think that’s gross!
You can feel bad for both of them.
It’s possible to be frustrated with Carol and feel bad for her.
Reducing it to just being about sex is silly as well. Carol was mourning and lonely and desperate for anything to cope even if it wasn’t healthy or real happiness. She wanted companionship, not just a fuck buddy. Plus, we see glimpses of Carol being disillusioned with her relationship with Helen in finding out that she wasn’t honest about her opinions on Carol’s writing, and secretly tracked her drinking. Carol doesn’t have to worry about that with Zosia. Zosia will never judge her or make her wonder if she’s lying. At least surface level. Carol found a break from all the misery and wanted to hold onto it.
I did feel awful for Manousous and frustrated on his behalf, but Carol didn’t know the extent of what he went through and she was right to be cautious around an uber paranoid stranger with a machete showing up at her door.
Selfish? Terrible judgement and completely misguided? Yes. Human? Not surprising under the circumstances? Also yes.
God forbid a character should, over the course of the show, go through any experiences that might lead them to feel or think or interpret their surroundings differently over the course of time (especially in a setting like Carol’s where basically nothing really changes that much). If there’s one thing I can’t abide, it’s characters who don’t remain TOTALLY CONSISTENT in every episode for the entire series!
And don’t even get me started on characters who exhibit any kind of ability to think or feel more than ONE SINGLE thought or feeling at a time! Ambiguity, cognitive dissonance, emotional conflict? Why would Carol be experiencing ANY of that?!?
Can’t have nuance and complex characters in a tv show now can we, that would be pushing it too far
Carol was replacing Helen with Zosia. She never really mourned Helen if you think about it, she was desperate to have the life she shared with Helen back.
I do feel bad for Carol because she was manipulated by the hive. She froze her eggs to build a future with Helen who died because of the hive, and then found out they were going to use the eggs to turn her into one of them. That was her breaking point, she realized she had been played. Her feelings of grieve and her memories with Helen had been used against her to distract her, on top of the 45 days she spent all by herself.
As for Manousos, we don’t actually know him so how do we empathize with someone we don’t know? We know he’s stubborn, determined, disciplined but so what? Who is he? What did he do before the joining, why was he strained with his mother? When Carol asks Zosia if he’s dangerous, she replies with “we don’t think he’d hurt YOU.” So it’s implied he is, or was, a dangerous individual.
Edit: when Carol calls the others traitors, they don’t owe her anything. She wants to save the world and they don’t, they don’t have to do as she says. With Manousos is the same. Carol doesn’t owe him anything. She doesn’t know him, didn’t ask him to do all the unnecessary things he did to get to Albuquerque. In the only conversation they had they insulted each other, so Carol thought that was that
I definitely feel bad for Manusos because he did all this shit for Carol, however, from a narrative standpoint he's getting into the game late. He's at a similar level of paranoia Carol started at. She didn't see any nuance to the situation at the time and neither does Manusos right now.
Carol was under the impression that she had time to take it slow and get to know the plurbs in a way similar to how Diabate was doing. She was also completely isolated for over a month and almost killed herself so I forgive her for giving into them to some degree but we saw that she never gave up on gathering information about them.
I think a part of her was pleased that someone else was trying to figure things out but she disagrees that the plurbs need to die if they can't be cured like how Manusos believes. However, now that she knows she has a time limit and it was likely they were trying to distract her long enough to infect her without her consent yeah, I would go to Manusos too. She can't take her time anymore.
Is nuance dead? Obviously Carol is being omega level gaslighted and manipulated to avoid finding a cure. Once she was shaken out of it, she reverted back. Like, textbook level abusive behavior. Isolation, love bombing, psychological tricks, including using the personality of her dead spouse (which they killed), the list goes on. You seriously think she only went back because of the consent?
Yeah for the all episode i was furious about carol. But people tend to do stupid shit so its understandable.
i’m glad she only faltered for half an episode because if that arc went on any longer i’d be done with this show.
I actually have hard doubts about the plurbs being manipulative. I thought so too at the beginning of the episode. There's a lot of way one can weave truth to achieve a lie. Maybe the plurbs are actively trying to misrepresent the survivors to each other to prevent them from cooperating? And was Zosia implying Manusos being potentially dangerous a deliberate lie born out of lack of truth they'd be forced to reveal of they knew he was fine?
But then Zosia said something, and it completely changed my perspective. She could've just kept quiet about it, but she still put in the good word: "To his credit, he did warn us about what he was going to do". So I think active manipulation is off the table. The plurbs truly believe they are helping people, easing the transition. And when it's done, it's eternal singing and dancing, telepathically, till the end of the universe.
Of course, this is still virus driven behavior. The devilry of a virus is that it's deceptively simple. It's barely alive even. It has a very simple strategy: invade a host, reprogram a host and make the host make more copies of me. All this virus specifically needs is the individuals of a civilization to put aside their quarrels and work together to build a huge ass antenna in space to spread out further. It prevents free thinking and research into the virus by flooding their systems constantly with serotonine, dopamine and oxytocine. So when the plurbs are friendly, they are friendly. Because they want to be friendly. Why the hell wouldn't they be? They're all intoxicated by their happiness hormones turned against them.
Bottom line, I don't think the virus to be the mastermind of the lackluster of a situation. the virus uses primitive tools to indoctrinate people and to give the the means to cooperate beyond race, religion or ideology, so that they could build a huge ass antenna in space, like the tower of Babel. The rest of the details are on the plurbs themselves. Remember, they are still somewhat separate, surprisingly. They feel things separately, their experiences are still their own. It's just that they transmit their knowledge in real time.
Giving Manusos credit doesn't mean they aren't manipulating her at all. They want him alive to become assimilated as well, they don't want Carol to kill him.
he put a medical knife in ALL of their necks (emotionally). he is dangerous from their POV.
Between the comments here that said stem cells from eggs isn't actually likely, and the spy device being linked to when Helen was making sure Carol wasn't drinking during her treatment, I thought the Chekov's gun of the eggs was fired and done. I was actually surprised it came back up and they were working on them to turn Carol.
Don't worry too much because it's physically impossible since half the information is missing.
If this is really where they are going it's a terrible scientific oversight
They are only missing another 3 billions basepairs and effectively infinite combinations!
All of the Hive's interactions with the survivors are fake. Carol learned that lesson the hard way without getting infected against her will.
They think, therefore they are?
This is really a thought provoking issue.
Bravo Vince
Any mission that Zosia has is the same as it always has been since they chose Zosia specifically to fly from Morocco to Albuquerque for Carol. Nothing has changed.
Zosia isn’t on some new mission to distract Carol - Zosia’s mission from Day 1 has been to appease Carol.
That's precisely it. I don't know why its such a hard concept to grasp for so many viewers. The Hive is a new being, created out of the aggregate minds of billions of humans, much like how your brain cells collectively make up a brain and a consciousness.
I was on the fence, but the goat’s reaction convinced me - this Hive’s gotta go
Shes going to be ok. She will figure out a way to prevent it. Whens season 2!
Probably at least a year 😭
I'm not even sure convertion is not just being willing to be stuffed with more viral load until it works.
Overwhelm an immune system.
Exactly! The not technically lying part is what makes me think we'll get a season 2 finale (or mid-season) where they outright lie. Purposefully and evidently. Probably us, the audience, will know it's a lie, but not the characters.
This specific hive mind has been alive for what?, under three months. They're going to grow/develop.
If they have to obey Carol in order to make her happy, can't she just say "Destroy by eggs along with all the research and progress you've made"?
Thats kinda what i was wondering too watching this. Though Diabate is fuuuuuucked cuz that dude is probably shooting stem cells at the Plurbs like crazy if you get my drift.
The big question is: why do they care so much about a dozen or so non-plurbs?
honestly, there was a point in time in episode 9 where i thought they'd put the "cure" in her drink and she was going to turn RIGHT THERE AND THEN...
No black people on the show…
There’s been a variety of representation including black people. Remember the DHL driver? Plus there are tons of extras.
This is why Carol’s conversion therapy experience plays perfectly into what’s happening. Fake, manipulative people* with smiles acting nice to get you to abandon yourself and join them.
The beginning scene with the goat and the village really snapped me out if it. Just seeing everyone abandon the village and the culture they pretended to have for the sake of Kumiyasu as soon as she joined the hive was super eerie. And then all I could think about was Zosia doing the same thing if Carol ever was to be assimilated. I’m still a Stursia shipper don’t get me wrong, I’m in this toxic yuri shit for life, but that scene was like cold water thrown in my face. But to be fair to Carol, I would totally let Zosia manipulate me as well, I’d probably be even more down bad. That’ll woman is beautiful.
I don’t feel bad for her. This person came thousands of miles to join her crusade to save the world, and she was willing to fuck over the entire idea just so she could have exclusive use of her sex robot. Carol is a selfish prick. But I hope she’s on the right path now.