If you have perfect programming for 5 years then sure you might top out. It’s quite literally impossible to have perfect programming for your first 5 years because you don’t even know your body in the beginning, or what perfect programming looks like for you.

There's a degree of personal bias in his thoughts.

He doesn't really enjoy training anymore, he trains minimally for the results he gets. No hate he's old and he's been doing it a long while.

I imagine his thinking would be different if he still really enjoyed the process of it.

I think it's telling that in such discussions people will hand-wave what they mean by "serious lifting". So you didn't gain some arbitrary amount of muscle this year; was that because of your natty limit or because your "serious lifting" wasn't serious enough? The world will never know.

But if you zoom out on the idea, it's almost trivially just talking about developing a personal calculus around weighing the diminishing returns versus your life's priorities. And we all do that constant weighing all the time, whether implicitly or explicitly. You don't need to fall into the bean-counting of how much muscle you gained in whatever year to be "allowed" to not have 6 days a week to train; scale back if you have other priorities. You can also train that much if you want to even if it doesn't gain you a single gram more muscle; the gym might be something more to you than the lean mass you accrue. And you can (gasp!) swing back and forth across different seasons of life.

The problem with laying it out over some 5-year plan is that it's oversimplified and fatalistic. There are people who've been lifting for decades who still make PRs. Progress is notoriously nonlinear, and gains aren't all-or-nothing. Sure, it's silly to expect magic gains past the first few years. But sometimes that nagging "what if?" is the spark that keeps someone going. Or not. It's not a moral failing to prioritize something else in your life. But laying it out over some timeline that fits inside the span of an undergraduate degree just makes it sound like marketing for insecure 20-somethings who lack perspective on endeavors that last longer than a handful of years.

imo the beyond year 4 gains are what make you look like an actual bodybuilder, so i think you're still going to have to chase them and spend an inordinate amount of time doing so if you want to look like a bodybuilder naturally. the first 40lbs (or whatever number), will get you to look like you lift above and beyond most people, but you likely won't be turning necks compared to developing the next 10lbs.

it's similar with pretty much everything - very reasonable to get to a 2000 Elo in chess or run a 5 minute mile in 3-4 years, but getting to 2500 Elo or a 4 minute mile might literally take you the rest of your life or never even reach it. nobody remembers a 2000 Elo player or someone who can run a 5 minute mile, though.

obviously whether all that's worth it for you personally - well that's a personal decision you have to make. the best generally put in stupid amounts of time and dedication where most people would say it's time wasted (and they might even agree later on in life) - but you're not gonna find many natty pros who've only trained for 4 years.

There's definitely some truth to what he's saying, but I think he's exaggerating the situation a bit

There are plenty of people who have made very significant physique improvements past the 5 year mark.

You also don't need to be training 6 days a week to acheive that. Very similiar gains are found when training anywhere from 4 - 6 times a week, and even 3 days a week is viable to make progress with.

And having a healthy diet is challenging, but it's benefits go beyond physique changes. Eating healthy is one of the best things you can do for your overall health and wellbeing so even if you stop caring about physique, it doesn't mean you should stop putting effort into how you eat.

It is definitely true that there are significantly diminishing returns in bodybuilding, things get much slower and harder the longer you have been training. But I think Lyle is just a bit pessimistic and that good progress is more possible after the 5 year mark than he suggests.

Maybe Lyle is someone who dislikes the process of lifting, and for him it is only about getting the results so he thinks it's not worth putting in effort anymore after 5 years. But just because that's his values doesn't mean they apply perfectly to everyone.

Some people really enjoy the gym, and aren't there just to grow, but because the gym itself makes them happy in some way. And so the point at which the gains are not worth the effort might be later on then it is for Lyle personally.

It's not like at the 5 year mark there is a sudden change, gains just slowly decrease from the time you start lifting. Him picking 5 years as the point is kind of arbitrary and won't apply to everyone.

I think it's a personal decision to decide when it is worth switching to a more maintenance mindset. For some people that may be after only 2 or 3 years, they might be satisfied with the physique they get from their newbie gains and are happy to focus their time/energy on other things. For other people that point might be around 5 or 6 years when progress is significantly slowing. For other people it might be somewhere around the 10 - 15 year mark. For other people they might really enjoy training and the grind to always progress, and may never stop trying to improve.

I don't think there's one simple point in time that it makes sense to stop trying, there is a slow down in gains around the 5 year mark, but gains are definitely still possible. It's up to each individual person to decide what is worth doing for themselves and their own values, goals, circumstances etc.

Year of training also refers to proper years of training. Someone who has been training poorly for 4 years and gained squat for muscle gains may still have roughly the Year 1 potential when they start training properly.

Lyle's statement is a bit more nuanced tbf.

I’m 11 years into competitive powerlifting at the same bodyweight, and at 49 years old I just had my best meet so far. It was my 25th meet, and I just posted my write up in r/powerlifting. To keep getting better you have to be willing to pullback and focus on deficiencies, even if it means pounding sand for 4-5 months. In the end, there are worse things I could be doing.

Figuring out what works best for you may very well take a year or two anyway. It certainly took time to filter through the BS back when I started.

I bet most people don't even develop a real passion for lifting, much less the grit to really push for at least 6-12 months either.

I don't I started "getting it" and training "seriously" for at least a year and a half and even then real life got in the way quite a bit.

I probably got 12-15lb of muscle the first year, again the next and then a few each year since. At nearly 48 yo and on year 11 of lifting, I am very happy with this.

Maybe this is the year I aim to maintain...but I doubt it.

It's a matter of individual goals.

Alex Leonidas, amongst other elite naturals, made noticeable improvements over the last few years — over a decade into lifting and putting up numbers most natties don't sniff.

I don't think it's a bad thing to become more calculated with your diet, sleep, and stress management at all. You can still make all the gains you'll ever make with 3-4 training days per week, so it's not as though training beyond the early-advanced stage involves unhealthy obsession as a recreational lifter.

I've been lifting for a bit more than 5 years consistently, and I think by most account fairly well. Hitting every muscle 2 times per week since the beginning, employing double progression as a means to progress weights (even though i didnt know it was called that way back when i started, but it felt right so i kept doing it), took my lifts fairly close to failure, etc., and i can definitely say that progress has slowed down pretty drastically in the past year or two

In my bulking phases im just doing semi-specialization cycles where i focus more so on a muscle or three at the same time while everything else is at more-or-less maintenance volume. Couple of mesocycles of that, and a few kilos heavier, and i cut down a bit (like right now), and i just keep repeating this cycle. But honestly i dont think ill keep doing this in another 5 years. Maybe a few more bulk and cut cycles and after that ill just do 2 full body workouts per week just to maintain, and I'll focus on something else, probably cardio but we'll see. By then maybe I'll buy some dumbbells and a barbell and not even bother going to the gym and waste precious minutes on commuting and finding parking

I like working out and the feeling i get from it, but i don't aspire to be a bodybuilder. I already look better than at least 80% of people walking on this earth, and i have no desire to put in the astronomical effort (and time) to try and look better than the last 20% - ill leave that to people with both much better genetics than me and those who have no other aspirations in life - cause the gym can be a real time sink after a certain point

The thing is even with perfectly optimized bulks and cuts, it's almost impossible to give each muscle group sufficient stimulus.

For example, if you want the biggest possible forearms, it's likely going to mean your back and bicep work take a hit. For bodybuilding that's not really that important as you don't want overdeveloped looking forearms. But, for example, if you want the biggest legs possible and have a day job and limited recovery, it may interfere with your upper body training. This could drag things out further than 5 years.

I'm 64 years old. All-Natural. I don't even do any testosterone replacement. My normal testosterone is right around 500. I have been lifting most of my life. I still don't think I have peaked. I'm still making gains and guess what...

I never have and still am not, "...chasing a few grams of muscle at the cost of total lifestyle obsession."

I lift because I get a big kick out of it. I really enjoy "The Process." I like it when younger gals (and guys) look at me, see an older badass buff granddad and give me a thumbs up. I like it when my twin. senior varsity football jock grandsons like to come up and do a double bicep pose with "Poppy."

I like it when older guys say things like, "Wait until you get my age.." to which I say, "How old are you?" then they will say something like "58." and then I tell them I'm retired and about to turn 65. The look on their faces is priceless.

Hell, my 20 rep squat day was today and I easily pumped out 20 full continuous reps at 230#.

Point being... Fuck maintenance. I'm still striving for gains and I am achieving goals.

Don't limit yourself. Wake up everyday saying, "I am kicking ass and taking names today!"

I lift because I love it and love the process.

I workout because it‘s fun. Why would I stop trying?

About your last paragraph:

1) You don't need to train 6 days a week for hours to keep progressing. About 3-4 times are more than enough if you know what you're doing

2) A lot of us just love working out. It doesn't matter if the gains slow down

Very few people have 5 years of perfect programming. Most of us spend the first year just fucking around, trying different things, switching programs left and right. Then take into consideration life events which may make us put the gym on the back-burner for periods of time, you're looking at closer to 10 years before someone reaches their natural limit.

Consider age as well, does anyone really think that someone who starts lifting at 16 will have exhausted their natural gains by 21? Of course not.

No, ive seen serious improvements the last 5 years. 15 years total training btw.

https://preview.redd.it/8prjhs08um8g1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e31a6dcffaee63c6cb01f34c2fe0ec852de3fb1

Hypertrophy is just a single adaptation out of many neuromuscular and cardiovascular adaptations you can work on. There’s plenty more to do. Strength, power, speed, strength endurance, atp system, glycolysis system, aerobic system, lactate clearance, lactate tolerance, etc etc etc. various sport specific combinations of these things. Also interesting that targeting different adaptations will build specific physiques. Who says bb hypertrophy is “ideal”? what about hypertrophy + speed + power for example - that’s a wild look.

why train 6 days a week...

because it's fun. the end.

Why play basketball every day if you're not going to the NBA? Why play video games every day if you're not going to win an esports tournament? Why do any hobby?

You’re smart.

I only work-out twice a week now and look forward to decreasing it further. So much more time for other things and much less fatigued in my daily life.

I'd like to know! I feel like a very dedicated and somewhat strong non-responder who's on year #5

The gains slow down but whether its still worth it to you to make some progress is just preference. Some people like being in the gym working hard anyway. May as well see if you can get any better.

I just love training hard, bulking and cutting. I'll take what little gains I make. If one day I no longer love this lifestyle than it is what it is. 

I’d have some follow up questions, on the assumption that you are at a ‘natural limit’, such as what does a maintenance program look like? Or can you make targeted gains while at a limit?

You can always eke out a little more as the years go by. I fully believe in muscle maturity in that it's the fibres thickening.

You could also experiment with isometrics and other similar things. Tendon strength is your main limiter when it comes to strength, so building them up would result in you being able to lift more weight and provide the stimulus for more muscle gains. The added joint durability is just a bonus.

The most important part is whether you're still enjoying lifting. It's hard to give it away when it becomes a part of your routine, and knowing how it benefits general health is more encouragement to stick with it.

There is enjoying lifting and doing so often for the enjoyment of the thing.

Nothing needs to be perfect, and comparing to what is possible or isn't possible is largely a robber of the joy of doing the thing.

Just lift. Eat well. 

It doesn't really matter what is possible and when - you'll get to intermediate when you get there, learn a lot as you go, and even having trained for a long time you'll still be able to build up weak bodyparts, recomp, etc.

Yeah most is built in a few years of compound lifts, but that is not the end of the journey - training is for life.

It’s a trade off at the end of the day. How much do you care about pushing as far as possible?

The payoff in terms of progress absolutely diminishes rapidly and at a certain point it’s a choice between lots of effort for slow progress or minimal effort to stay the same. That choice often coincides with career and kids taking over priorities.

The big upside is it’s super easy to maintain a great physique with less effort than it took to build.

I'm in year 10 and im still seeing gains, working out 3-4x per week with sessions just lasting 1hr. It varies widely by individual, try it out and see for yourself

I think you need 10 years experience to have 5 years experience of serious lifting

How confident are you that you did those 5 years correctly?

I think this makes a lot of sense for someone who begins training later (like post 30 years old) and has a family/business to run, but for the vast majority of people who begin training earlier (20-25) and work a regular job/don't have a family, this group should train hard and often with the intent to make significant progress after 5+ years of training, because training keeps you out of trouble when you're young and have very few commitments.

Limited belief systems like this end up causing people to sandbag training before they even reach the 3 year mark.

I don’t believe that to be true at all. You will need to change the way you train and trouble shoot what you need to make gains (which most people don’t do) but to say you’ll not make any noticeable progress isn’t facts.

IMO it's not a waste of time for people who don't need very much volume in the first place. I'm gaining with 3 sessions a week & they don't exceed 1hr. 3hrs of exercise a week is something that the average person should aspire to, so I'm not looking to scale back at all. 

I balance this by doing less frequency, with higher volume & intensity.

I deadlift hard once every 1.5/2 weeks, squat once a week, maybe twice if one is lighter session, bench, back/lat work, and ohp aren't very fatiguing so I do them twice a week, sometimes with some feeder set or calisthenics thrown in there too. I run on my rest days. It has been working great for me so far and I manage to get significantly leaner and stronger with every bulk/cut cycle.

I never would have thought I could have reached my current numbers based on my starting point but here I am. Sure, it's slower, but not slow enough to kill my motivation to keep pushing myself. I am pushing 215 at 5'9 and still have ab definition.

Lyle says...  ok..  not

RUBBISH!

As a lifter in his late 40’s, having started four years ago, my gains are minimal at this point - so I focus primarily on maintenance. I’m always reaching for hypertrophy but I’m not nearly as hung up about it like I was a few years ago.

The aesthetics of my physique are now increasingly, if not exclusively, dependent on my body fat percentage. I’m fluffier in the winter and leaner in the summer. I’m totally fine with that.

5 years is not a long time in terms of hypertrophy. Alberto Nunez and Jeff Alberts of 3DMJ coaching continue to make gains 20+ years into bodybuilding

I don't think it's true, but if you believe it will definitely be true.

The thing that most people don't take advantage of deconditioning or "softening up". If strength athletes can continue to get stronger, then one should be able to add size.

Is it harder to gain the longer you train? Yes. But that's true of any stress-adaptation.

Try something completely different 10 x 10 or one of Gironda's many routines. Train for strength.

Specialize on a weak bodypart, doing a ton for it, while maintaining the rest. Then specialize on a different one.

Factually: no one knows. They are speculating.

My experience with "genetic potential" is that the better my training was, the more my "potential" seemed to increase.

It takes most people 5 years to figure out how to properly train and hopefully during that time they learn how to eat properly. 5 years of perfection is basically impossible, there is never "not a point" to continue chasing gains. I have clients who are in their 50s and have been lifting since they were 16, and are still progressing at something.

Chasing gains after five years isn't a waste; it's about refining your approach and finding new ways to stimulate growth, which can lead to impressive results even for naturals.

Even pro bodybuilders like Arnold said 5 lbs of muscle a year is all he could get.

In my experience if you're younger, you continue to make strides, I've worked out since 15 and I'm 35. Stronger than over

There are formulas (which AFAIK, are good) for calculating max. natural potential. So I'd start there when thinking about this stuff.

I absolutely disagree with this take.

You put two lifters side by side, one who's been training for 5 years, one who's been training for 10 - the size difference will be pretty insane. This could be an argument after 10 ish years of training for sure, but defintiely not after 5.

This makes complete sense to the average person and no sense to someone who wants to build as much muscle as possible naturally

Both are different goals and none are wrong. Personally ive seen what’s achievable in 10+ years and although im not there yet, the physique is worth it.

Also its just 1 hour a day… its really not that serious. Sure i workout 6x a week but the sessions really aren’t that long. Plus people do way crazier stuff out there

6-day training weeks are a fad that needs binned.

4-day is more than enough. The body needs time to repair and grow, the mind needs time to relax and unwind.

Reduce the training, increase the intensity.

Year 4/5 and most other years beyond that are about 1 kg of muscle mass per year - not much but if you train for 8 more years you will look a lot better than someone who lifts for 4 years only.

If you're not seeing gains, you're not doing it right.

Regardless of the nuance of what peak is and how long it takes to get there, I think the general advice is sound. The amount of progress you'll get after 5 years of legitimately hard training and good diet (and shit probably even just average-good diet) is probably not worth it to MOST people with the required level of locked in you need to be. It also depends on your starting point. Are you talking about 5 years into lifting and you're 20? Or you're 30? Two very different things in terms of physical maturity.

But either way yes, at a certain point it is (imo) much more beneficial to focus on quality of life while being strong vs focusing on getting x amount more muscle or strength gains in a year and killing your enjoyment to do so. There's a reason a lot of strong people also have joint pain or whatever else. You can get as strong over a longer period of time and be safer. And if they find it worth it, by all means do your thing. Nor am I saying I'm even the best about always playing it safe lol.

I'm 32 and while I can handle a 225+ rdl, I do 185 for about 10 reps with a few in reserve. I know I'll eventually get up there to 315 or whatever as long as I'm consistent so I take it relatively easy on lifts that COULD fuck me up (and it's why I won't go back to conventional DL) and take me out of work for a bit. It's kind of like recreational sports at a certain age. Like dude, I gotta job to go to and rent to pay. I'm not trying to jeopardize that with foolishness. And just a time factor. I work 10 hrs most days. It sucks to go to the gym even if I enjoy it, and get home and it's 7. Then I have to think about bed in 2-3hrs while still needing to eat or do whatever else. Doing that 5+ times a week is not worth it imo.

As is true with all things, if you truly enjoy the time and effort or you're competing, fucking do it. But don't drag through it too much just for 2% muscle mass gains and hating life while doing it and you're just a regular dude not trying to make a living from it. That doesn't mean be lazy or never go for gains again, but just be smart and practical.

I’m 50 and making gains now I probably should have made decades ago but I wasn’t “optimal” enough. Oh well.

25lbs of muscle mass in the first year of lifting?

Gaining 20 to 25 pound the first years and 10 to 12 the second years is insane. It’s clearly not the majority of people who can do that’s, it’s the type of gain you see on steroid. And à also as a natural we don’t need to train 6 time a week in a gym. I train 4 time a week and between 45 minute to 1 hour and 15 minute depending on if the gym is pack je things like that and I could not do more because I use a lot of intensity when I train that’s the important part. Lot of people train for 2 hour 5 6 time a week but all they do is texting and talking and they don’t push themselves

You can always get bigger and stronger. If your goals are only aesthetic you may hit some kind of wall, but it’s why it’s important to have other goals.

BS, there is no such thing like maintenance. If you really trained hard for 5 years, and after that time you just significantly reduce training wolume or intensity or whateverfuck maintenance here means, you just start losing your muscles size or strenght. Ofcourse it does not mean you have to lift hard whole your life, but just do not expect to keep yours hardly achieved gains when going into some maintenance easy training mode