I’ve never seen anything but the nicest kind of people at bjj. The closest thing to hazing was a light hearted collar choke gauntlet. That wasn’t much more than a hand shake. I haven’t seen that kind of behaviour in bjj or wrestling.
Yeah my gym is fairly apolitical but I would guess most people are center-center left just based on the emphasis on inclusion, etc. My instructor encourages us to try other gyms, and I've never felt hazed. The gay jokes and making fun of your own art thing seems to come from Reddit and can be solved by getting into your no gi uniform, going outside, and wrist locking a big palm full of grass.
I dunno, I’ve trained at about 5 different clubs as I’ve moved around a little bit and I feel like this persons analysis is pretty spot on. My guess is it’s a Joe Rogan effect
I don't think OP is overly sensitive - I've seen the types of gyms they're talking about. Toxic gyms certainly exist - just like the culty Bullshido gyms are around in traditional martial arts.
But those gyms are, from my experience, the exception and not the rule.
I've dropped in on probably 30 gyms in my BJJ career and probably 25 of them were absolutely stellar.
In 2024, there are probably a significantly higher amount of gyms that teach BJJ and MMA then only the former.
The toxic MMA thing is just as silly as the generalization OP is making. I mean you used a flame logo thing as an example. Maybe in 2008, during the TapOut and Affliction era, that was a thing but I’ve personally never seen that.
My Gym was fine I new some right wing leaning people in my gym and some left. The coach who was a political in class was a school teacher and fairly by standards of the area left leaning.
BJJ tends to be less proper and respectful than in traditional martial arts. Honestly the thing where the instructor acts like an expert in other fields outside the art is something I have seen in traditional arts growing up but not in my BJJ gym. My Judo coaches in college were also a very chill/cool guys. I actually found to lack of hierarchy at my BJJ compared to traditional martial arts I grew up doing refreshing. I find to hierarchy and traditions of TMA cultish at times.
I've known people who went to my gym who made inappropriate jokes at times but not the instructors and no one during class time.
If you are actually experienced as a wrestler and never dealt with right wing culture or gay jokes, I have no clue how many days you actually wrestle but that’s a rarity.
Depends on where he wrestled. If it is the Mid-West or the South....then yeah, I don't know how he didn't notice the raging racism(particularly the Anti-Black Racism.....the barely hidden resentment over Jordan Burroughs running through their best is palpable) that entire time.
East and West Coast....is pretty much "meh" though. You run into a few....but it isn't a systemic thing.
Yea, it’s a bit of confirmation bias because the majority of top wrestling is in the Midwest, and that’s where I wrestled up through high school and in NCWA Club wrestling.
With the exclusion of Oklahoma, there really isn’t a big wrestling culture in the south and outside of the latter and OK, California is really the only other big wrestling state. Most due to its size, they produces some decent wrestlers.
But you’re not gonna meet many wrestling coaches who aren’t grizzled old conservative dudes, I had maybe one younger coach I remember who was actually pretty sensible and liberal.
Almost none of the things you mentioned I saw in my BjJ clubs except a right wing bent though it was something that came out more in 1:1 discussions with fellow gym goers Vs the group discussion.
To be fair, the right wing bend is fairly common in a lot of martial arts gyms. I think being an individualistic sport just tends to attract people who are more individualist.
I remember when i started out in mma class I had demonstrated talent in striking and joined the no gi BJJ beginners class the coaches had kind of all taken notice of me and wanted to see if I had the grit to be a fighter.
After about a month or so I started rolling and 2 months the coach wanted to test my grit.
He pretty much held me in a super tight side control and I had only knew how to shrimp, he wanted me to improvise and show some resolve but I flopped there just having an asthma attack.
I tried to tell him that if he shows me a move I will practise the hell out of it as the studious student as opposed to the grit stand and bang type.
He kinda lost interest in training me as a prospect after that and I just slowly faded from training there.
We have some kids in our BJJ kids class that get a bit neglected in terms of specific instruction and I too am partially at fault for not interacting with them as much but they sometimes end up being the biggest surprises come competition time.
We had a spazzy 14 year old white belt that was kind of a mess because he was way too spazzy in certain positions but come last day before the competition I worked with him 1 on 1 to make sure he got some concepts down.
I noticed he had a good double leg and so I worked a sequence where he went for it he established side control or mount if he could and I told him to hold position and then work submissions and rather than go for the submission full force to make sure he didn't lose mount while doing it.
The kid goes to the comp and he does EXACTLY what we trained and drilled the exact day before no spazziness whatsoever, he just blasted that double leg, went to mount and applied a very technical Americana while calmly holding mount until the ref stopped the match.
I think this is because bjj is realitivily new. There is no focus on the mentality/spiritual aspect like there may be in other disciplines. Speaking from a taekwondo background, there was always the aspect that each strike was supposed to be able to kill but at the same time you are taught to respect your opponent so you always try to either hold back or win the fight before it begins. Bjj doesn't have that. It's coming from the ufc where showboating and disrespect of your opponent brings in the wrong kind of people. The "alphas" who aren't learning to better themselves but to learn how to hurt people. And the teachers who only teach people to hero worship and to be followers. Respect is only for the teacher and their dojo. It wasn't that surprising to find out that a lot of bjj instructors have court cases for hurting people or can be easily goaded into conflict if not outright look for it. Shameful things to see from supposed masters of their art.
That's really interesting, I never checked the morals of my MMA teachers but I assume that if someone would be using the martial art to offend rather than defend, if need be, then they would kick them out. I didn't meet those "alphas", but I do live in Israel which could have a cultural difference given how much violence is already out there in the streets. Funny enough, it's more than Europe but way less than the US (1.9 vs 6.4). That said, guns are less available for civilians, so murders are more with knives than anything else.
I have been doing both BJJ and Judo. Man, the vibes are so different.
In Judo, sometimes people go hard on me, but after class we are all very friendly and care for each other. And people don't put their full weight on me (I am a small girl) without me telling them not to put their full weight on me...
BJJ..really weird ...I tried BJJ 3 years ago and some fat girl put all her weight on me and broke my chest soft issue in the 1st class (wtf would you go all in in someones first class??) ..and the coach was super dismissive and didnt even care when i told him i was in pain...later on i went to hospital and had an X-ray and my soft tissue was broken..couldn't lie down for a week.
I re-started BJJ last year, at least 3 fat girls like to put their full weight on me, there's this 1 heavy girl, when she puts her weight on my ribs and I gas out to relieve the pressure, she just starts laughing.... (??? wtf in Judo people normally ask me if I am okay??) ...and after class, this exact woman just gave me a random punch into my waist from my back as I was just standing there?? To her it might have been a friendly punch (i dunno?) but it really hurt and was out of nowhere.... This woman's friend also perhaps hates me because she is much heavier than me and shes been training longer but still couldn't get me into a choke during rolling and she just looked pissed during rolling that she couldn't get me.. I am usually trying to make sure I don't accidentally elbow or knee someone during rolling and I would never be mean and put a knee into someone's ribs...but man some of these women are just so aggressive and ego-driven ..I only reciprocate their behaviour if they are going too hard to me and oh boy they get frustrated when they can't get me....
Maybe it's due to the nature of the sports, I find it much easier to train with guys in Judo...if I train with a guy much heavier than me, I have to do the technique perfectly for it to work ..and it is a great training opportunity for me..but in bjj, I constantly worry about some heavy person sitting on my ribs and just breaking my body ..
They also seem a bit dismissive when I talk about fear of injuries.
In comparison, my Judo coach is always empathetic and reassuring. She is an Olympic medalist but so down-to-earth. The other male coach would always ask higher belts to train with white belts to help them. Whenever I tell her I have this 'irrational fear' of being injured this this that way, she always says its not irrational it's totally understandable, and offers me advice on how to avoid injury (choose a corner spot to train, don't randori with lower belts, making sure I have the right transport to get home after an ACL injury in class) ..if someone friend-punches me in class, I feel comfortable telling her and I know she will do the right thing ..but BJJ oh man..Once my ribs were squeezed so hard when someone was drilling on me they were sore and when I told the coach about it I was almost crying ...and he was just smiling and was like "...sometimes these things happen..
you just need to wriggle yourself out of the situation.." (???)
I feel like sometimes in BJJ people just think just because you are training it gives them a free ticket to assault you...I think the main reason is the coach's negligence and being dismissive in general. (I can's speak for all schools but at least this happened in 2 BJJ schools I went to)
On top of that, as a girl, it is so hard to find a training partner in BJJ. Sometimes when people are being hard on me during drilling, I don't dare speak out because I am afraid then they won't wanna train with me any more, then I would gradually have no one to train with..Never had this problem in Judo...
How would you guys deal with these aggressive people in BJJ? I genuinely might quit this sport because the number of mean people..and teachers who dismiss it when you tell them you are afraid of injuries..I really like BJJ techniques and think it is super effective so I am torn..maybe I should go for private lessons.
Also it happened to me multiple times that BJJ instructors will try to hit on you if you are one of the skinny girls training in class. Once this higher belt demonstrating techniques in class, when he trained with me and scissor swept me, I said 'damn you scissored me so easily' and he said 'is that supposed to be innuendo?' ....(I am a girl in 20s and he's a middle aged man)
Considering how Helio Gracie was beyond arrogant and all around shitty with Kimura doesn’t surprise me that those toxic traits would be passed down along with techniques.
I am a Judoka and went to a few BJJ classes with a friend who wanted me to try it out. People were friendly enough, but they kept wanting to try me in cheeky ways. Almost like they had a mission to embarrass the Judoka. which in Judo I never experienced that and remember new students being welcomed like family.
I don’t mind BJJ, but I’m not a fan of some of the mindsets some of them have.
BJJ outside of Brazil is essentially a rich kid’s sport. Nobody does BJJ to get out of poverty unlike those in boxing/muaythai. That starting background alone plus the knowledge u can mangle any less competent practitioners/noobs make for a toxic combination. Then compound that with the OGs like Helio, Royce and Rickson walking around with an air of superiority (despite the outward appearance of humility)
BJJ is also a “rich kids sport” in Brazil. Luta livre was for poor people and BJJ for the upper middle class. There was a massive rivalry and it was largely due to class divide.
Brazil is a classist country and sports are no different.
My dad went to Univeesity in the 70s with a few of the Gracie family members and they were by all accounts rich kids. Already well known at the time for BJJ as well. Kind of like a “bunch of douche bag rich kids who want to fight everyone” vibe according to him.
Man I love how Roger acts though I always feel that air of superiority and that fake bravado with those other guys but when I look at Roger it feels different
Adult and Youth Boxing at the city parks by boxing trainers certified by US boxing and with a proven track record of producing multiple Olympians and national golden glove champions?
Around 80 dollars a year or around 6.60 a year. The trainer’s salary is paid by city tax money, its basically subsidized by local sales tax money, like everything else in this city.
Considering how Helio Gracie was beyond arrogant and all around shitty with Kimura doesn’t surprise me that those toxic traits would be passed down along with techniques.
What do you mean "try you in cheeky ways"? This is really vague. Personally, if a judoka walks into my gym, I want to roll with them and see what they got...its just more interesting than the average trial student. If you are already a grappler people tend to expect a little more out of you.
I get that. But this wasn't that. More so holding subs longer after I tapped, etc. I don't mind some intense rolling at all, but it was clear the higher belts were definitely trying to bully me. And I think early on, you could tell where I was falling into unfamiliar territory with a lot of leg locks. But it felt like I didn't learn much, just kinda got folded up a bunch of times. I understand testing someone to see what they got. But I was only there because my friend asked me to come and try it. I was super respectful and was really just wanting to learn, but I think some took it as an opportunity to flex I guess.
Even with that experience, I really attribute it to those having the wrong attitude, which can be found in any sport or martial art. My friend even apologized after the class for how some of them were.
Not respecting the tap is not just "cheeky" its breaking the fundamental agreement of submission grappling and dangerous. Spamming leglocks against someone who hasn't trained them at all is pretty shitty as well. It really does sound like some assholes with an ax to grind, I wouldn't train there either. Sorry that was your bjj experience, my gym has nothing but respect for Judo and loves when someone trains it as well.
I think that is what it was. I mean I hate rolling with BJJ guys because I suck at the different variations of submissions. But I am all about learning. I know whenever I've had to randori with someone not familiar with Judo, I def will try to help instead of just throwing them all over the place.
I think my mindset when it comes to martial arts is that we are all helping each other become better, and just beating people for the sake of beating them when they are trying to learn takes away from it.
I appreciate that. I know my mindset used to annoy people on my own Judo team, because I was not so concerned with winning, but more so learning and becoming better.
I remember spending a whole summer getting my ass kicked by a member of the Cuban Olympic Judo team. They would come and train under my coach, so of course me being older and bigger I got paired up with them all the time. Even though I pretty much was trash against them, they did tell me that once I figure out to transfer my raw strength into technique, I would be a real problem. I guess getting some form of acknowledgment from an Olympian was amazing and humbling, because despite them being universes ahead of me, they were still looking at us as equals and willing to teach. So I just started changing my approach to it. Because at the end of the day we do it because we love it and we love being able to partake with other practitioners.
I've been training in BJJ for about 15 years now, and I also have experienced a lot of what the OP is talking about.
However I never viewed any of it as negative or toxic.
I spent years getting destroyed by upper belts, which really helped my defense/escapes.
Now that I am an "upper belt" myself, I need to use the lower belts to practice and refine my offense. I can't really do this on more experienced guys, unless we both mutually agree to not go full force on each other. With newer guys, they can go full force, and I can still practice my offense against them.
As a purple belt, I was more interested in "winning". However as a brown belt, I now find myself winning much easier against newer guys, but then I usually explain to them what I did. I have much more of a "teaching" mindset these days as opposed to a "winning" one.
Long story short, I think you just kinda have to get your ass kicked for a while so you develop your defense/escapes 🤷
I don’t really think it’s possible to train any MA to a decently proficient level without getting your ass kicked. I started BJJ 17 years ago and gym environments are, in some aspects, a luxury now vs the old sink or swim days. But those of us who hung around really don’t break easily at all.
I commentated a show not that long ago where a guy who’d only hit pads for 15 years got sparked out cold by a relative newbie who’d prioritised actual sparring. That pretty much sums up how I feel about training for efficacy (to a point, it’s obviously more nuanced than that).
If your BJJ club doesn’t make self deprecating gay jokes, you’re at the wrong club.
Dude probably just rolled with a someone at nogi rocking full spandex and couldn’t handle the cognitive dissonance that comes from battling a dangerous man that feels like he’s wearing… nothing at all.
I think a lot of this may be localized to the specific gyms you are going to. You may be seeing a small set of data and assuming that’s the case for everyone
I have trained and taught in Traditional Martial arts, and done the same in MMA.
I wouldn’t say that BJJ culture overall is toxic per se, but I would say that is the MOST toxic in the conversation.
Sometimes it just seems like a big joke, and alot of people prefer the formality rather than hang out & strangle sesh.
The instructor worship is pretty real. Luckily my coaches have a great blend of taking bjj seriously, but not taking themselves too seriously. Its definitely up to the instructor ans staff to set a precedent of how to train with a purpose, and how to act in the gym when youre not.
Bjj’s online culture is pretty problematic in a way, being a giant meme fest, debating the same stuff consantly like gi vs no gi, heel hooks or not etc. The Post promotion hazing is incredibly dumb and very very awkward.
I get the vibe, that bjj is the cool and hip and "based" thing to do these days. It is super popular among the tech-bro, self improvement, hustle grindset, tim ferris, joe rogan type crowd.
I think it is the perception, that bjj is the "most effective" martial art around. And the "man, you will never feel more humble than when you start bjj" thing, which paradoxically will be this faux humble thing. You will go around bragging to people how humble you are about practicing this "brutal but elegant" martial art that is "like chess".
I imagine there was a similar-ish wave of popularity in the eighties or nineties or whatever with karate when it had it's cultural moment.
It is like crossfit but even better for making you feel more confident, since it is not just about being a super athlete, it is also "being able to kill any untrained man with your hands". That is surely going to feel hella good when you tell your coworkers at the office to make you feel superior.
I think you've nailed it. I'm also an outsider, and for the time being, content to remain one, mainly because of the BJJ guys who've drifted in and out of other clubs I've trained at. Almost universally, they've been toxic meatheads looking to prove they're better rather than learn. I think the narrative around BJJ effectiveness in UFC just attracts a lot of toxic people, and that can quickly infect a community.
Instructor worship is way more prevalent in more traditional martial arts than any BJJ gym I've ever trained in, and I've trained at a lot.
BJJ is right wing? What gyms have you been going to that are full of racists dude?! I've never seen a more diverse crowd of people than I have at most BJJ and MMA gyms. Keep politics out of gyms.
"Hazing" should be voluntary. You're a grown up. Say no.
Went into this expecting some weeb shit about the benefits of bowing to other human beings and referring to your instructor by all sorts of esteemed honorifics, but I pretty much agree with everything.
My gym isn't like this other than the promotion hazing, but I'm going to opt out anyway and if they refuse to promote me, oh well! This post gave me a better way to explain to my instructor (when the time comes) my discomfort with the promotion rituals, so thank you for this.
You're not wrong. But I think it’s due to the people that promote it. Joe Rogan, Jocko, etc. “Manly men” one would say. Not to say those are bad people. But they lead to young men trying to emulate masculinity. Emulated masculinity is how it turns toxic. And that's just kind of rampant on the scene at the moment.
My Bjj instructor did traditional martial arts as a kid and then did Bjj later. He's very technical. But he's a retired older guy doing it for fun. So the culture he promotes is a lot less “frat boy” like. That's why I like it there.
People from the outside of BJJ community call it gay and the BJJ guys reply "yeah it's gay, so what?" and the OP comes with a nonsensical take that they are insecure because they are not defending it.
There are many flaws in this wall of text, but the major one that makes this rant irrelevant is the false belief that ones subjective experience of one BJJ or Judo club at some point = whole BJJ community altogether.
To me it feels you have not practiced martial arts ever, you just watched some tiktok videos on topics of Judo/BJJ and threw some prompts in chat gpt.
Dude went to one BJJ gym and wrote an entire essay about the culture of BJJ as a whole lol.
White Belt memes are funny as fuck and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. Not all martial arts / gyms need a super serious TMA attitude in order for people to learn and have a good time
That’s an awful lot of words to say you don’t like that BJJ does the same culture stuff as Judo, except people joke more and take it less seriously.
Seriously, outside of the unfortunate political situation involving your martial arts, they’re both doing the exact same stuff. Why should things like sensei worship be fine for judo, but not jiu jitsu?
BJJ mainly has the problem MMA had, Muay Thai had, Krav Maga had and Kickboxing/Karate had from the 70's to now: it's the flavor of the week. Within the martial arts community there's a certain subset of person obsessed with finding "the most effective" martial art, these are the same people who think the most expensive camera makes the best photographer, or the boomiest gun makes the biggest dick, they have this obsession because they are externalizers, the blame and solution to their problems is always found outside of themselves.
These people flock to the popular arts, ruin it for a while and once its reputation is thoroughly soiled, the few with passion can clean up the crud and go about their way.
But because these people are externalizers, their politics reflect the same, they'll try and find wisdom in having the most obscure sources, they only find humor in crossing your boundaries, try and be healthy by finding the most outlandish treatments and supplements, try and be successful by kicking the legs out from others, who summit a mountain by digging it down so they are taller.
It's a game of endurance, do the opposite of them and cultivate your strength inside by doing what's hard, not what's expensive, and welcome the ample practise you will get in allowing fools to be fools.
My only experience with BJJ toxicity is from a kids MMA class that focused a lot more on the throws and grappling from BJJ than the actual striking. The instructor was a conservative and he would actively abuse kids to the point that even when he didn't it wasn't even questioned that he abused them, it was just kinda treated as a given. He treated anyone who was neurodivergent as an idiot and I remember this one autistic kid who, while he definitely wasn't the most vibrant of crayons, often made up for it in some other way (particularly in his marvelous handling of a bo). He bullied that kid a lot. When I finally had enough, he was treating me like I (m14 at the time) had the intellect of the 5 year old kids in the same class, completely disregarding that I was the only student with a chance to go toe-to-toe with his brown or black belt son and wiped out most of his senior students in the class. He straight up throttled a 4 year old kid for not understanding how to do a technique he was trying to teach, as if violence and its necessity in a sticky situation is supposed to be innate. He wasn't the greatest teacher either and I'm willing to bet he has some seriously unresolved anger issues.
Master Webb, if for whatever reason you should see this, you don't know the first thing about how to teach children and you need to get some serious help before you ever should be allowed to teach another child. I'd tell you to get shoulder-thrown onto a fucking caltrop but I don't know anyone strong enough to heave you across their hip, let alone hoist you over their shoulder. You killed martial arts for me for a long time and I will never forgive you for that. Those kids deserve a martial arts class, but very few of them were wretched enough to deserve you.
From my experience this toxicity is prevalent across all martial arts. It’s why I’m grateful I never stayed at one place and tried out different schools and theories of thought. Certain mindsets, immaturity, and extreme right/left wing thinking can be detrimental not only to my training but to my personal life. I’m not in there to embrace & validate superficial opinions. I’m in there to train, and if the one at the top of the hierarchy does not know how to lead, I’m out! If you hang out with five idiots long enough, you will become the sixth.
Yeah I kind of agree. I like BJJ and there's some great people in it but there is for sure a very toxic streak among a lot of the more famous grapplers and in the competitive scene in general.
To reiterate though, there are some really great people in BJJ and my gym has been great but yes I have been disappointed by some of the culture of BJJ, especially in the competition scene.
Feels pretty normal to me. The hierarchy is normal, better people make jokes about lower, but usually the better people still gives advice. The memes too, in boxing, you have trex arms or the annoying whipping jab, in BJJ, same thing.
Everyone knows that BJJ is gay. Cuddling with each other? I mean come on. What is wrong about making jokes about it. There is no need to defend it. It is effective. Why would I feel the need to defend my art when everyone already knows that it is effective. Mocking your own art is funny.
The belt promotion is just fun. I don’t know how you celebrate things but it is like getting thrown into a swimming pool. Just all fun and games. Joking around, that is the celebration.
Black belts are usually just god. Unlike black belt judokas, when you reach brown or black, you should be very, extremely skilled and knowledgeable.
Combat sports attract right wing men in general contrary to traditional martial arts. See the gym? Right wing. The right wing media encourage men to go practice combat sports and go to the gym.
edit: I kind of feel like you are kind of soft. If so, I’m not criticizing, I recommend you change gyms. It is not BJJ’s fault that you feel this way, but the gym you are in.
"Mutual welfare and benefit" is baked into the central tenants of judo and very much a part of the culture. It's why you can go to judo dojos anywhere in the world and with very few exceptions be welcomed with open arms and be treated with respect even if you're a beginner.
BJJ was brought to the world by a group of guys who were rich boy thugs with big egos that weren't above lying and cheating and had for-profit motivations. That culture is still very much alive in some of the BJJ gyms I've trained at over the years but I get friendly 'judo vibes' from a vast majority of them. IME it's always the slimy, used car salesman gyms promising you could "beat anyone on the streets after training with them for six months" that are toxic.
As far as politics is concerned, I don't think I know the political leanings of anyone I've trained with in any grappling sport. I don't ask, I don't care, and it isn't why I'm there.
If you are experienced as a wrestler and never dealt with right wing culture or gay jokes, I have no clue how many days you actually wrestled but that’s a rarity.
I don’t see how being able to crack jokes about your own martial art makes you “insecure”. Usually the guys who are insecure and homophobic are the ones saying “I could never wrestle/do bjj, it’s so gay”. Where as most grapplers are pretty comfortable with their sexuality and not worried about joking about it and magically turning gay.
Guys joke about stuff like this, it makes me think OP has never stepped foot on a high school wrestling mat if he thinks this is unique to bjj and not wrestling. You’ll never meet a group of guys cracking more jokes and more comfortable with themselves than in wrestling.
This split is just bizarre to me. I mean, you can of course just react with complete sincerity when people mock your art as being gay, sure. But why expend the energy? To me being able to mock your own art shows you don't take yourself or what you do overly seriously. You're dignified and secure in doing it to a point where you'd reclaim the unjust accusations stupid people make about it as jokes. Being gay is also just fine...so reacting against someone calling it gay feels needlessly defensive and insecure in itself.
Sounds like you just been to a shitty gym and/or live in a shitty area for training BJJ. Also sounds like you don’t have any friends so chill out buddy don’t take everything so seriously.
My dude some of those things you're just being soft and need to lighten up, other things make me think you're going to a weird culty gym. Just find somewhere else to train BJJ if your gym hazes you and makes you worship the instructor. The other shit, yeah people joke about white belts and make gay jokes, I had my friends nuts in my face last night, it's fucking gay and I still love it and do it 5 days a week. And white belts suck, they know they suck, we all start BJJ sucking and spazzing and getting crushed. Nobody genuinely feels hate towards them or is actually homophobic. Man some people should just train aikido I swear.
What do you expect from a martial art started by a bunch of gangsters? A martial art that is marketed by those same gangsters, Joe Rogan, and its own influence on the early blood sport of MMA?
It's because the Gracies are actually scumbags IRL. Helio's brother used to be the worst but I'm pretty sure he is dead now but Helio went along with his brothers really bad ideas like jumping some dude they lost to with tire irons. It's basically part of Brazils history but yeah the Gracie family used to be really bad before they hit the financial gold mine, no samurai mentality there just hood shit.
BJJ rules (submission) attracts people with big ego. In each roll (spar), there's a winner and a loser which is determined by someone submitting. This is different to most striking arts where there are no winners and losers in sparring.
In striking sparring or judo randori, often the purpose is to learn, while in BJJ rolls, the purpose is to find a winner and a loser. BJJers are often way more competitive than other martial artists. So much ego in BJJ gym.
A BJJ gym like this is the exception, not the rule. Sounds to me like you aught to lighten up. And you completely lost me when you brought up politics. 😖
I see where you are coming from, but I don't think this is universal. My personal experiences certainly agree, but these are just anecdotes. On the thing about right wing culture, this is just because of the Overton window. There are just a lot of right wingers now a days because that is what our media pushes.
the whole right wing thing is amusing. I found a bjj gym locally that I wanted to try out until I checked out the instagram. The instructor is hispanic, but there is a very clear skinhead culture among many of its members. It's possible that they're former skinheads and just kept the tattoos. It's possible that their wp hand symbols in their avatars are just memes, but combined with all the dumb shit I've seen posted on their pages along with what they follow...big doubt. Next gym is an hour and a half drive. bummer.
I wish you put that projection about judo being leftist (good) and bjj right-wing (so bad) at the start, wouldn't have bothered reading the rest. This is really all that needs to be said about this.
Im sure some gyms are worse than others the head instructor should set the tone for the club. I think the aspect of bjj that is completely different from every other martial art is that practice can be done at full power because of the lack of striking. This sets it up so that you are constantly being evaluated against each other which would make it hyper competitive. The other thing is Brazilian culture and japanese culture are very different.
My gym literally has none of this other than maybe some spazzy white belt jokes but even then those are kind of tame and generally anyone who's a beginner at anything will get a little teasing from more experienced people. There's also basically no reverence for higher belts in our gym, white belts can ask a brown belt to roll, no lining up or bowing either
And sure we have some people wearing "keep jui jitsu gay" shirts but we also have many gay and lesbian people training with no issues, our most popular rash guards are our rainbow tye dye rash guards, and it's becoming a tradition to paint your toe nails before a fight/comp. You can call it "mocking" our sport but it's more like we try not to take ourselves too seriously and prove ourselves on the mat. Plus who doesn't like pretty colors. I've gotten the more compliments on my tye dye gi at competitions than I do in any other aspect of my life.
And our gym is generally apolitical. We have gay, trans, black, white, Hispanic, Arab, military, cops, people coming in high, people of all backgrounds but all that stays outside of the gym and people are just there to train and learn.
Honestly it just seems like you have a shitty gym, or at least one that doesn't suit your tastes. but don't try and project your experiences onto jui jitsu as a whole cuz that's just silly.
while im sure there's a massive right wing culture in BJJ, other martial arts are hardly exempt from this. I promise you that it exists in Judo clubs and karate clubs and anything else you can think of.
That's totally true as well. The ufc/rogan effect is a big part of BJJ's culture. I just think it's not exclusively a BJJ problem what you're describing
Here is the problem with that. The grappling arts you mention are the absolute most disciplines and prestigious martial arts on the planet. Of course most other are going to fall short compared to judo, in particular. If you were to compare to something like Krav Maga for example the conclusion would be different. I won't weigh in on the striking arts, as I am not competent to do so.
It feels like op has been in some bad clubs. I’d say a lot of bjj clubs have evolved from this all of this. Traditional arts have their fair share of hero worship with instructors, weird brainwashing too. In BJJ I think there is a lot of black belt respect because the practitioners know it’s a 10/12 year commitment with a lot of sacrifice. That is what sets it apart from being a black belt in other systems. The flip side of that is that putting in that time and having that fortitude doesn’t make you a good person in all aspects of life and their are some douche bag black belts out there in every art that take advantage of people.
The gay jokes are satire honestly. It’s so rediculous that doing a martial art would have any sexual connotation, homosexual or hetereo or anything in between. These are things that uninformed homophones say about bjj because they’ve never had someone try to choke the shit out of them or tear of their limbs - it’s not arousing in the least. I think the gay jokes are more about pointing out the absurdity of that, why would anyone be made fun of for being gay nowadays anyhow? It’s not homophobic, it’s the opposite. I do get that a closeted gay student may feel awkward about it though. At the same time It’s not something I think should be part of bjj culture. You get so close with your training partners, it’s like when you are at home with your significant other, you may make off side jokes with them thinking “we are all family here”.
Building character through adversity is not bad. I think North Americans need more of it. I’m not against the shark tank at all. You aren’t being physically injured, you are showing your tenacity, that you aren’t scared of hard work, you are being celebrated in that moment and respected. Belt whipping should be 💯optional, but you know what, I would take it, I wish I got the business at my black belt ceremony honestly. That doesn’t mean I think it should be required as a rule for everyone. We are all different.
Politics should stay out of every pastime, period. The crazy conspiracy theories aren’t a bjj thing, they are a smoking too much weed thing. It’s the common thing I see in my friends that are wake and bakers.
I think the issue is more that as BJJ has become more and more popular, increasingly shitty gyms have been set up. Find a better gym, I've seen none of these tbh, although I do disagree with you on the "mocking the art" part. Taking myself too seriously is one of the things that BJJ really helped with. Sitting on people's faces and cuddling them *is* absurd. But it's wonderful, and I miss it enormously.
Most BJJ folk I have met IRL were low key and respectful. I live in Canada FWIW. Politeness is considered next to godliness up here so could be a factor. In fact I can't think of an exception.
I do like that judo has a code of class conduct baked right into it though. I think most martial arts could stand to learn from judo culture.
My local BJJ gym is as left as it gets. Everyone shows up on scooters and EVs and go to vegan restaurants together. My judo club is full of people complaining about cia conspiracies and sending money to foreign countries. I get along with either group just fine.
I've found that the competitive striking gyms are usually the most toxic but BJJ in America is definitely a guys club which in its own way is toxic but it's more ball breaking. The two judo clubs I've trained at were chill as he'll and mostly populated by strong nerds and fewer meatheads. And wrestling is straight torture.
I found that a lot of things are racist, homophobic and otherwise not PC.. that’s the real world out there. Not every environment is a professional setting. Not everyone, especially not someone dedicating their life to a sport, will have had inclusive language, unconscious bias or diversity training. Doesn’t mean you can’t train with them.
In my own experience the BJJ environment is way less toxic than MMA
If you look at the “founders” of Bjj it’s imbedded in the culture playa. Martial Arts in general while is very self fulfilling it’s also a breading ground for toxicity.
There is no gauntlet in my gym. Not a lot of gay jokes either. I think there is less commonality among BJJ gyms than you suggest. Maybe less culture altogether.
Vaccinations and masks were required as part of the city ordinance, and this stuff was enforced - we were just happy to have the gym open again, I don't remember any actual complaining aside from waterboarding jokes.
I don’t have anything but this post to go off but you seem like a very serious fellow. Many people use humor as their way of processing the world and building relationships, not as a form of mockery or degradation.
Imo BJJ is closer related to a sport you play with your buddies to make fun of them (like tennis, squash) than a martial art... I wouldn't change a thing, don't want it stricter, don't want it more formal, none of that. It's a fun thing to do while talking trash to ur buddies. Imo.
It’s not the art itself. Or the “culture”. It’s certain people and certain gyms and certain events. I’m not sure what left wing or right wing is in martial arts fr but that shit didn’t exist when I was younger doing martial arts and as a teen and adult I noticed that it was more clowns in BJJ, mma, wrestling, boxing and kickboxing/psuedo-Muay Thai gyms in general. Those sports and styles have more fans, hobbyists and non martial artists than the other styles, but have more competitions and sometimes higher skill levels than other styles. When dealing with a gym with 200 ppl as opposed to a gym with 40 ppl (TMA’s/judo/MT club) you’ll sometimes end up with a skewed perspective due to a higher chance of having “assholes” “ruining” the experience. That’s not always the case but that’s what happens with numbers and popularity. The same goes for fitness and weight training gyms honestly. It’s a waste of energy to pay attention to those ppl. I suggest using the block button on social media and training away from people you don’t like. 🤷🏾♂️.. once people become unbearable or if you notice they don’t practice the actual tenets of martial arts, move on to a better/different environment
Its weird, in my experience bjj has been the least toxic combat sport ive done and by FAR
I would rank toxicity on things ive done like this
Boxing>mma>kickboxing>bjj
-Ive seen the hierarchy and the sensei worship way more prevalent in the other arts
-not american so I cant talk about the politics thing, I would say my gym is a lil bit more “right winged” but its pretty even and never heard someone associate it with bjj
-gay jokes are 100% super prevalent but I think its kinds funny and shows not being homophobic and confidence in our sport tbh, not the other way around
The only 2 guys ive heard being mad at this where a judoka who didnt like it cause it wasnt “serious” and a guy who geniuenely told us he was homophobic and those jokes bothered him
I have been training for fourteen years and have brown belts in jiujitsu and judo… I’ve traveled a lot due to work and gotten to train in Europe and the USA on multiple coasts . I’ve visited a ton of academies and trained consistently at a lot of different places.
I’ve seen a lot of what you’re talking about at some places but not others. The judo schools DEFINITELY place more emphasis on tradition and respect but most of the jiujitsu schools I’ve been to do the same - it might not be as formal but you certainly wouldn’t hear a lot of gay jokes for instance.
Unfortunately there are plenty of different shades of this and it’s important to try a lot of different academies before settling on one. For every toxic academy there’s another that’s amazing.
I think your interpretation is off on some of these:
BJJ people poke fun at BJJ not because they are insecure, but because they are secure. They actually think BJJ is freaking awesome, highly effective and they love it. It's the insecure people who constantly have to talk about how cool their art is, don't tolerate jokes, and talk about how weak other arts are. If any thing, BJJ people talk very highly of other combat sports and are comfortable pointing out the short comings of BJJ.
BJJ humor is often very self effacing. BJJ has a very active online community, which means lots of memes. All belts are ridiculed, not just white belts: Blue belts suck/quit, purple belts are always late, brown belts are fat and bald, black belts harass their female students, etc. This is more collective self-effacement than anything else. Even when upper belts poke fun at lower belts, it's really them poking fun at how bad they were when they were there. It's all in good fun.
BJJ has a very casual culture, which means people will speak their minds more. And yes, that means philosophizing off topic and airing political views that would be hidden in more formal environments. As for left/right, I would like to see BJJ compared to MMA, wresting, and some of the striking combat sports.
This isn’t a bjj problem, it’s a get out of your current dojo and find somewhere else that isn’t rife with pricks kind of a problem. Don’t let there crap mentality ruin what your enjoying.
This sounds like a pretty individual experience as my Jujitsu (albeit more free style/traditional than bjj) is nothing like this.
There's a little bit of a 'lad culture' but I think that has more to do with how severely of the members are ex military than the sport itself. The coach is very concerned about welfare, and when I said to him that I was a bit uncomfortable with someone he paid his full attention and has made an effort not to pair us up again.
There's no hazing or bullying, but more of a "if you're a dick in sparring then expect people to also be a dick"
Interesting post, although I think there are plenty of generalisations in it. I think you're very sensitive and not from the west so some of the stuff might be lost on you. For example, doing the 'gay' jokes is fun, having a frat house culture is fun, bit of hazing can be fun.
But overall, I think lots of these criticisms miss the heart of BJJ... It's a ridiculous, 'martial art' where you get dressed up in pyjamas or bike shorts to wrestle with the same sex on the floor. It was basically stolen from Judo Ne Waza by a family who used to own circuses. It's a martial art where attempting to go pro will basically ensure you go broke and can't walk properly.
The heart of BJJ is rolling around play wrestling with your sibling when you were young, it's not about the combat, it's about the relationships you form.
That's my opinion and I hope you can find some joy in it OP.
The only thing true about this for me is getting whipped/shark tanked. Wich is very optional in my club. Everything else is a pretty sweeping generalization of bjj clubs based on your one experience. Id hit a few more bjj clubs as im certain you've just run into a "bad egg" so to speak.
I will say I've never had the problem, but I've seen on r/bjj some people complaining about mega egotistical instructors. All of mine have been great tho.
Hierarchy: I make fun of white belt moves” I do because I still see myself sometimes as a white belt, It’s kind of like making fun of the belt hierarchy because we all remember being white belts and we all have white belt moments or feel like white belts at times, it can be humbling and cathartic
Sexual jokes: look I’m not going to defend sitting on another man’s face in north south. I’m 69ing another dude while we both wear pajamas. I accept it. Don’t take it too seriously
Hazing: I’m against any non-consensual hazing. Personally, I find shared suffering and shared experiences bonding, and not a punishment, I didn’t mind the gauntlet. But of course nobody should be made to feel pressured.
Instructor Worship: the concept of worshipping your instructor is absurd. Unless it’s me. All other instructors are heretics and everyone should bow to me.
Right wing culture: sounds like a “your gym” problem. Nobody I know at the gym goes to talk politics. I’m sure I’d disagree with other gym members on some things. But I’ll never know, and that’s how it should be.
I'm going to guess that your dataset is not much more than a single club. I travel a bunch for work and otherwise and always make it a point to stop in to local BJJ clubs - I strongly disagree with a lot of these assertions.
While some gyms do put way too much stock in the instructor I call mine by his first name and have a pretty casual relationship.
The only hierarchy I've experienced was black belts that insisted I roll with them when I wanted to rest. I've literally replied with "are you seriously gonna pull rank here?" and if I did roll with them it was in the interest of a relationship witg an experienced competitor who takes an interest in me.
The gay jokes are the fun part. If you can't make fun of yourself that's when you get rigid and cult-y. Most of us just want to show up and hug sweaty dudes.
All sides of the political spectrum. I've seen conservative cops roll with tankie lesbians and get along fine.
Overall my experience with jiu jitsu has been very positive. It's very welcoming and the live practice keeps people humble. Also, I throw my belt on the ground all the time.
There are definitely things I don’t like about BJJ culture and I’ve met more assholes in BJJ than I have in Judo, but coming from Judo I think there are just different flavours of toxic in different arts and different flavours of toxic in different countries where the arts are practiced.
BJJ toxic flavour - I see more bad behaviour at tournaments, more ego, more bad behaviour from top competitors online and at tournaments, bad behaviour I haven’t seen in over 20 years of Judo, and the lengths it takes to get a blackbelt gives them unusual power and authority which definitely some people are prone to abuse.
But in Judo I’ve seen many things just as bad and the worst things are much worse:
Small Judo countries are very toxic in some ways because it’s a small system and easier to get power in, and since they have a small amount of top athletes and coaches they get away with some crazy shit that I won’t go into here.
Hazing is very much a thing in Judo too and at its worst it is much worse than BJJ. Overseas I saw stuff like:
.People knocking their apprentices out for fun
.Sleep depriving them
.Injuring people on purpose
.Targeting foreigners to rough them up on the mats
People tend to compare BJJ to Japanese TMA like Judo and Jiu Jitsu, but they don’t understand what the culture of those arts used to be.
At one point in Judo you couldn’t tap and reliably have it be respected. Pre War Judo was kill or be killed, if you get armlocked it’s probably getting broken. Pretty much everything in Japan has an apprenticeship based learning component which has some weird characteristics:
.You must protect your apprentice, except from those who you give permission to abuse them
.You must teach them as much as you can
.You are allowed to abuse them in various ways, physical, servile, emotional, and when they graduate out of the apprenticeship they can do the same to their apprentice
.They do menial tasks for you but you are expected to financially support them in various ways like helping them to pay for their food
This system is being phased out in favour of a healthier more modern apprenticeship system, but it is a real thing and the greatest Judoka of the last 10 years or so, Shohei Ono, he got in trouble for shattering a junior student’s ear drum for not training hard enough.
I would bet any sum or money imaginable that the exact same shit is going on in Korea in the honorable TKD which you reference.
It also varies greatly by club. My Judo club and BJJ club are great places to train, neither are perfect and both cultures have improved since the earlier iterations - the Judo one used to be smash everybody no matter the belt level and let the tough ones survive and progress, the BJJ one initially struggled with retention coz fresh off the boat Brazilians tend to crank subs, even during demonstrations.
I’d recommend both in a heart beat and both clubs are respectful in competition, helpful to new members, have good standards for grading and instructors that really care and go above and beyond.
If you look at how BJJ became popular and took hold, i.e. the Gracie's and the OG UFC, it's all based on beating people up, not self-defense or any kind of tempered martial philosophy. Roots bear fruits.
I live in Sweden, so maybe it’s different but I recognize absolutely nothing of the stuff I read about bjj on here.
While I sometimes wish there was more of an established code of conduct in bjj, I also recognize that’s in intertwined with the decentralized, Wild West nature of the sport (contrast it to a more centralized art like judo).
I think you make some good points but I'm not like that and not everyone is. Plus I live in a multi-cultural area and being racist would be extremely weird.
Only gripe with my gym is the shark tank. Higher belts just don’t let me practice anything. They want to get maximum taps in the 5 minute sprawl. Some of them do teach while rolling. But most of them want to submit beginners within 10-20s. Also, some of them complain when I rely on braun vs technique. Thats the only thing I can use vs your 5+ years of rolling.
My gym does not really sexualize bjj—thank goodness, but politics do seep in (we have a huge blue lives matter American flag, a huge red lives matter flag), & there was a sign up sheet last year to watch The Sound of Freedom. And don’t get me started on the car stickers…
It's due to the people who promote the sport (Joe Rogan etc.) and also the fact that people got it in their head that JJ is unanimously the best martial art ever somehow. I'm going to be honest, if you have to fight in the street last place you want to be is on the ground. Still useful but yeah.
Imma level with you just join an Akhada, I’ve had similar experiences with BJJ practitioners. If you can find an Akhada in the west let me know. Seems you know Kushti anyway so may as well.
I'd blame the UFC for the type of mentalities described in the OP.
You can't just win the fight, you have to be a "hard ass" too. Lol, my guess is the people needing to flex on a rookie just haven't won that many fights themselves.
None of the gyms I have been in were remotely like you described.
All the guys the had slightly more ‘macho’ vibe - always train other things - MMA GUYS - (this is quite possibly due to it being a quote competitive sport)
As for your political experience- AGAIN the opposite of my experience. We generally have an unspoken rule - no politics in the gym - but I do know that the most right-wing views in the gym are from the Judoka (which I personally believe has ZERO correlation) who cross trains.
My only experience in a BJJ gym was that they were mostly unfriendly, put on tough guy demeanors (even the little kids), and seemed cocky. Was a pretty informal setting too. I was used to more structure and respect in karate.
I went to one toxic place when I first started. I’m 6’3 and the instructor was 5’8 and we were messing around as he got me into bjj he was basically practicing on me which I was ok with. I’ve been learning at this point for 4 months and he is. 15 yr veteran of bjj.
Anyways I was on top of him as he was trying to do an elbow escape then he stopped and was doing somethjng else, and something In me clicked. His chest was wide open and his left arm was going across my chest. I popped up as fast as I could putting my hands on his chest as I elevated , this caught him off guard , his left arm was just there , so I grabbed it and swung my leg around and got him in a perfect arm bar.
Needless to say this hurt his ego bad. In my mind it was just dumb luck and he was using me as fodder so he was not all there mentally ready to take me out he was just messing around but I got him. He made my life in that class hell for 2 weeks then issue fuck this and left to another place that was a dream. Been a few years and I still talk to those guys. Old instructor. Not at all
Microcosm: is club dependant and probably country dependent to a lesser (?) Degree... Macrocosm: I hate to say it, but he might be right!!? We can only influence our environment, so perhaps we just be mindful of what we do and say, and how we interact online?
I skimmed this. I hate the homophobia and misogyny inherent in a lot of BJJ gyms. I can’t say I agree that it’s inherently right wing. I’ve had a lot of conversations that make me believe it’s pretty even.
I’ve kind of noticed this too. Egos get checked in the disciplines you mentioned. Easily, and swiftly. Guys tend to be quieter in my experience growing up boxing. This is just my observation of the sport in the broader not necessarily what I’ve experienced first hand. You don’t see anyone doing grab ass cringe-y shit in boxing or sambo lol.
I think you're going to a really shitty and toxic gym.
My gym has none of these elements.
I’ve never seen anything but the nicest kind of people at bjj. The closest thing to hazing was a light hearted collar choke gauntlet. That wasn’t much more than a hand shake. I haven’t seen that kind of behaviour in bjj or wrestling.
Yeah my gym is fairly apolitical but I would guess most people are center-center left just based on the emphasis on inclusion, etc. My instructor encourages us to try other gyms, and I've never felt hazed. The gay jokes and making fun of your own art thing seems to come from Reddit and can be solved by getting into your no gi uniform, going outside, and wrist locking a big palm full of grass.
Yeah, our gym is pretty serious about not sexualizing the hobby while on the mats. It's a good way to make new people uncomfortable.
I dunno, I’ve trained at about 5 different clubs as I’ve moved around a little bit and I feel like this persons analysis is pretty spot on. My guess is it’s a Joe Rogan effect
I was thinking the same.
Except for the gay jokes. Don't you dare try to take away our gay jokes.
my guess is either OP is going to a bad gym or is rrrreeeaaaallllyyyy sensitive
I don't think OP is overly sensitive - I've seen the types of gyms they're talking about. Toxic gyms certainly exist - just like the culty Bullshido gyms are around in traditional martial arts.
But those gyms are, from my experience, the exception and not the rule.
I've dropped in on probably 30 gyms in my BJJ career and probably 25 of them were absolutely stellar.
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Just so you know, Gracie Barra has a pretty negative reputation among the BJJ community for a large number of reasons.
I'm new to BJJ. Can you say what the reasons for this negative reputation are?
Ah, There it is.
MMA gyms are a different animal.
Go to an academy - a school that teaches BJJ specifically, and you'll feel the shift.
And stay away from any organization with flames or flags in the logo and you'll be good to go.
(Flames indicate a need for intensity and flags play upon nationalistic pride and a sense of inherited self worth)
In 2024, there are probably a significantly higher amount of gyms that teach BJJ and MMA then only the former.
The toxic MMA thing is just as silly as the generalization OP is making. I mean you used a flame logo thing as an example. Maybe in 2008, during the TapOut and Affliction era, that was a thing but I’ve personally never seen that.
Came here to say this.
My Gym was fine I new some right wing leaning people in my gym and some left. The coach who was a political in class was a school teacher and fairly by standards of the area left leaning.
BJJ tends to be less proper and respectful than in traditional martial arts. Honestly the thing where the instructor acts like an expert in other fields outside the art is something I have seen in traditional arts growing up but not in my BJJ gym. My Judo coaches in college were also a very chill/cool guys. I actually found to lack of hierarchy at my BJJ compared to traditional martial arts I grew up doing refreshing. I find to hierarchy and traditions of TMA cultish at times.
I've known people who went to my gym who made inappropriate jokes at times but not the instructors and no one during class time.
If you are actually experienced as a wrestler and never dealt with right wing culture or gay jokes, I have no clue how many days you actually wrestle but that’s a rarity.
Depends on where he wrestled. If it is the Mid-West or the South....then yeah, I don't know how he didn't notice the raging racism(particularly the Anti-Black Racism.....the barely hidden resentment over Jordan Burroughs running through their best is palpable) that entire time.
East and West Coast....is pretty much "meh" though. You run into a few....but it isn't a systemic thing.
Yea, it’s a bit of confirmation bias because the majority of top wrestling is in the Midwest, and that’s where I wrestled up through high school and in NCWA Club wrestling.
With the exclusion of Oklahoma, there really isn’t a big wrestling culture in the south and outside of the latter and OK, California is really the only other big wrestling state. Most due to its size, they produces some decent wrestlers.
But you’re not gonna meet many wrestling coaches who aren’t grizzled old conservative dudes, I had maybe one younger coach I remember who was actually pretty sensible and liberal.
True dat.
So I think it depends on where you train
Almost none of the things you mentioned I saw in my BjJ clubs except a right wing bent though it was something that came out more in 1:1 discussions with fellow gym goers Vs the group discussion.
To be fair, the right wing bend is fairly common in a lot of martial arts gyms. I think being an individualistic sport just tends to attract people who are more individualist.
I remember when i started out in mma class I had demonstrated talent in striking and joined the no gi BJJ beginners class the coaches had kind of all taken notice of me and wanted to see if I had the grit to be a fighter.
After about a month or so I started rolling and 2 months the coach wanted to test my grit.
He pretty much held me in a super tight side control and I had only knew how to shrimp, he wanted me to improvise and show some resolve but I flopped there just having an asthma attack.
I tried to tell him that if he shows me a move I will practise the hell out of it as the studious student as opposed to the grit stand and bang type.
He kinda lost interest in training me as a prospect after that and I just slowly faded from training there.
Man I hate that.
We have some kids in our BJJ kids class that get a bit neglected in terms of specific instruction and I too am partially at fault for not interacting with them as much but they sometimes end up being the biggest surprises come competition time.
We had a spazzy 14 year old white belt that was kind of a mess because he was way too spazzy in certain positions but come last day before the competition I worked with him 1 on 1 to make sure he got some concepts down.
I noticed he had a good double leg and so I worked a sequence where he went for it he established side control or mount if he could and I told him to hold position and then work submissions and rather than go for the submission full force to make sure he didn't lose mount while doing it.
The kid goes to the comp and he does EXACTLY what we trained and drilled the exact day before no spazziness whatsoever, he just blasted that double leg, went to mount and applied a very technical Americana while calmly holding mount until the ref stopped the match.
Absolutely proud of that guy.
The guy sounds like a caveman lol. You probsbly dodged a bullet.
I think this is because bjj is realitivily new. There is no focus on the mentality/spiritual aspect like there may be in other disciplines. Speaking from a taekwondo background, there was always the aspect that each strike was supposed to be able to kill but at the same time you are taught to respect your opponent so you always try to either hold back or win the fight before it begins. Bjj doesn't have that. It's coming from the ufc where showboating and disrespect of your opponent brings in the wrong kind of people. The "alphas" who aren't learning to better themselves but to learn how to hurt people. And the teachers who only teach people to hero worship and to be followers. Respect is only for the teacher and their dojo. It wasn't that surprising to find out that a lot of bjj instructors have court cases for hurting people or can be easily goaded into conflict if not outright look for it. Shameful things to see from supposed masters of their art.
I mean it started with them basically creating it and challenging everybody they could to fight after.
That's really interesting, I never checked the morals of my MMA teachers but I assume that if someone would be using the martial art to offend rather than defend, if need be, then they would kick them out. I didn't meet those "alphas", but I do live in Israel which could have a cultural difference given how much violence is already out there in the streets. Funny enough, it's more than Europe but way less than the US (1.9 vs 6.4). That said, guns are less available for civilians, so murders are more with knives than anything else.
I've never heard someone being kicked out of a MMA gym here for off the gym behavior.
I do know some of the guys might be a bit tough-acting and would not de-escalate if someone tried to pick a fight with them.
Taekwondo coalesced after WWII, whereas BJJ started in 1916. I don't think you have your history right.
I have been doing both BJJ and Judo. Man, the vibes are so different.
In Judo, sometimes people go hard on me, but after class we are all very friendly and care for each other. And people don't put their full weight on me (I am a small girl) without me telling them not to put their full weight on me...
BJJ..really weird ...I tried BJJ 3 years ago and some fat girl put all her weight on me and broke my chest soft issue in the 1st class (wtf would you go all in in someones first class??) ..and the coach was super dismissive and didnt even care when i told him i was in pain...later on i went to hospital and had an X-ray and my soft tissue was broken..couldn't lie down for a week.
I re-started BJJ last year, at least 3 fat girls like to put their full weight on me, there's this 1 heavy girl, when she puts her weight on my ribs and I gas out to relieve the pressure, she just starts laughing.... (??? wtf in Judo people normally ask me if I am okay??) ...and after class, this exact woman just gave me a random punch into my waist from my back as I was just standing there?? To her it might have been a friendly punch (i dunno?) but it really hurt and was out of nowhere.... This woman's friend also perhaps hates me because she is much heavier than me and shes been training longer but still couldn't get me into a choke during rolling and she just looked pissed during rolling that she couldn't get me.. I am usually trying to make sure I don't accidentally elbow or knee someone during rolling and I would never be mean and put a knee into someone's ribs...but man some of these women are just so aggressive and ego-driven ..I only reciprocate their behaviour if they are going too hard to me and oh boy they get frustrated when they can't get me....
Maybe it's due to the nature of the sports, I find it much easier to train with guys in Judo...if I train with a guy much heavier than me, I have to do the technique perfectly for it to work ..and it is a great training opportunity for me..but in bjj, I constantly worry about some heavy person sitting on my ribs and just breaking my body ..
They also seem a bit dismissive when I talk about fear of injuries.
In comparison, my Judo coach is always empathetic and reassuring. She is an Olympic medalist but so down-to-earth. The other male coach would always ask higher belts to train with white belts to help them. Whenever I tell her I have this 'irrational fear' of being injured this this that way, she always says its not irrational it's totally understandable, and offers me advice on how to avoid injury (choose a corner spot to train, don't randori with lower belts, making sure I have the right transport to get home after an ACL injury in class) ..if someone friend-punches me in class, I feel comfortable telling her and I know she will do the right thing ..but BJJ oh man..Once my ribs were squeezed so hard when someone was drilling on me they were sore and when I told the coach about it I was almost crying ...and he was just smiling and was like "...sometimes these things happen.. you just need to wriggle yourself out of the situation.." (???)
I feel like sometimes in BJJ people just think just because you are training it gives them a free ticket to assault you...I think the main reason is the coach's negligence and being dismissive in general. (I can's speak for all schools but at least this happened in 2 BJJ schools I went to)
On top of that, as a girl, it is so hard to find a training partner in BJJ. Sometimes when people are being hard on me during drilling, I don't dare speak out because I am afraid then they won't wanna train with me any more, then I would gradually have no one to train with..Never had this problem in Judo...
How would you guys deal with these aggressive people in BJJ? I genuinely might quit this sport because the number of mean people..and teachers who dismiss it when you tell them you are afraid of injuries..I really like BJJ techniques and think it is super effective so I am torn..maybe I should go for private lessons.
Also it happened to me multiple times that BJJ instructors will try to hit on you if you are one of the skinny girls training in class. Once this higher belt demonstrating techniques in class, when he trained with me and scissor swept me, I said 'damn you scissored me so easily' and he said 'is that supposed to be innuendo?' ....(I am a girl in 20s and he's a middle aged man)
BJJ gym I belong to has a great atmosphere with guys & girls from all walks of life. The owner is a great guy and everyone supports each other.
Considering how Helio Gracie was beyond arrogant and all around shitty with Kimura doesn’t surprise me that those toxic traits would be passed down along with techniques.
I am a Judoka and went to a few BJJ classes with a friend who wanted me to try it out. People were friendly enough, but they kept wanting to try me in cheeky ways. Almost like they had a mission to embarrass the Judoka. which in Judo I never experienced that and remember new students being welcomed like family.
I don’t mind BJJ, but I’m not a fan of some of the mindsets some of them have.
BJJ outside of Brazil is essentially a rich kid’s sport. Nobody does BJJ to get out of poverty unlike those in boxing/muaythai. That starting background alone plus the knowledge u can mangle any less competent practitioners/noobs make for a toxic combination. Then compound that with the OGs like Helio, Royce and Rickson walking around with an air of superiority (despite the outward appearance of humility)
BJJ is also a “rich kids sport” in Brazil. Luta livre was for poor people and BJJ for the upper middle class. There was a massive rivalry and it was largely due to class divide.
Brazil is a classist country and sports are no different.
My dad went to Univeesity in the 70s with a few of the Gracie family members and they were by all accounts rich kids. Already well known at the time for BJJ as well. Kind of like a “bunch of douche bag rich kids who want to fight everyone” vibe according to him.
Man I love how Roger acts though I always feel that air of superiority and that fake bravado with those other guys but when I look at Roger it feels different
BJJ isn't any more or less expensive as anything else where I live. Actually my BJJ & MMA gym is a bit cheaper than the muay thai gym I frequent.
Many lower-income people there.
Bjj in Chicago is like 150+ per month.
Adult and Youth Boxing at the city parks by boxing trainers certified by US boxing and with a proven track record of producing multiple Olympians and national golden glove champions?
Around 80 dollars a year or around 6.60 a year. The trainer’s salary is paid by city tax money, its basically subsidized by local sales tax money, like everything else in this city.
Not true nowadays and Brazil more so than any other country had a class issue involved with bjj
Bjj nowadays is alot more affordable, clubs in my area offer similar fees to alot of other mma or kickboxing clubs
And Kimura still whipped his ass IIRC heh.
Yeah he broke his arm and they ended up naming the lock after him.
What do you mean "try you in cheeky ways"? This is really vague. Personally, if a judoka walks into my gym, I want to roll with them and see what they got...its just more interesting than the average trial student. If you are already a grappler people tend to expect a little more out of you.
I get that. But this wasn't that. More so holding subs longer after I tapped, etc. I don't mind some intense rolling at all, but it was clear the higher belts were definitely trying to bully me. And I think early on, you could tell where I was falling into unfamiliar territory with a lot of leg locks. But it felt like I didn't learn much, just kinda got folded up a bunch of times. I understand testing someone to see what they got. But I was only there because my friend asked me to come and try it. I was super respectful and was really just wanting to learn, but I think some took it as an opportunity to flex I guess.
Even with that experience, I really attribute it to those having the wrong attitude, which can be found in any sport or martial art. My friend even apologized after the class for how some of them were.
Sorry if I didn't explain it well.
Not respecting the tap is not just "cheeky" its breaking the fundamental agreement of submission grappling and dangerous. Spamming leglocks against someone who hasn't trained them at all is pretty shitty as well. It really does sound like some assholes with an ax to grind, I wouldn't train there either. Sorry that was your bjj experience, my gym has nothing but respect for Judo and loves when someone trains it as well.
I think that is what it was. I mean I hate rolling with BJJ guys because I suck at the different variations of submissions. But I am all about learning. I know whenever I've had to randori with someone not familiar with Judo, I def will try to help instead of just throwing them all over the place.
I think my mindset when it comes to martial arts is that we are all helping each other become better, and just beating people for the sake of beating them when they are trying to learn takes away from it.
You sound like a good dude, thats the mentality everyone should have when training.
I appreciate that. I know my mindset used to annoy people on my own Judo team, because I was not so concerned with winning, but more so learning and becoming better.
I remember spending a whole summer getting my ass kicked by a member of the Cuban Olympic Judo team. They would come and train under my coach, so of course me being older and bigger I got paired up with them all the time. Even though I pretty much was trash against them, they did tell me that once I figure out to transfer my raw strength into technique, I would be a real problem. I guess getting some form of acknowledgment from an Olympian was amazing and humbling, because despite them being universes ahead of me, they were still looking at us as equals and willing to teach. So I just started changing my approach to it. Because at the end of the day we do it because we love it and we love being able to partake with other practitioners.
Thats not cheeky, that’s bad. „cheeky“ would be catching you insome obscure submission as often as possible, or avoiding stand up at all cost
I've been training in BJJ for about 15 years now, and I also have experienced a lot of what the OP is talking about.
However I never viewed any of it as negative or toxic.
I spent years getting destroyed by upper belts, which really helped my defense/escapes.
Now that I am an "upper belt" myself, I need to use the lower belts to practice and refine my offense. I can't really do this on more experienced guys, unless we both mutually agree to not go full force on each other. With newer guys, they can go full force, and I can still practice my offense against them.
As a purple belt, I was more interested in "winning". However as a brown belt, I now find myself winning much easier against newer guys, but then I usually explain to them what I did. I have much more of a "teaching" mindset these days as opposed to a "winning" one.
Long story short, I think you just kinda have to get your ass kicked for a while so you develop your defense/escapes 🤷
I don’t really think it’s possible to train any MA to a decently proficient level without getting your ass kicked. I started BJJ 17 years ago and gym environments are, in some aspects, a luxury now vs the old sink or swim days. But those of us who hung around really don’t break easily at all.
I commentated a show not that long ago where a guy who’d only hit pads for 15 years got sparked out cold by a relative newbie who’d prioritised actual sparring. That pretty much sums up how I feel about training for efficacy (to a point, it’s obviously more nuanced than that).
If your BJJ club doesn’t make self deprecating gay jokes, you’re at the wrong club.
Dude probably just rolled with a someone at nogi rocking full spandex and couldn’t handle the cognitive dissonance that comes from battling a dangerous man that feels like he’s wearing… nothing at all.
I came to bjj to learn ground fighting stayed for the self deprecating gay jokes.
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😂😂
I'd overall agree with this sentiment from my own experience.
I think a lot of this may be localized to the specific gyms you are going to. You may be seeing a small set of data and assuming that’s the case for everyone
I have trained and taught in Traditional Martial arts, and done the same in MMA.
I wouldn’t say that BJJ culture overall is toxic per se, but I would say that is the MOST toxic in the conversation.
Sometimes it just seems like a big joke, and alot of people prefer the formality rather than hang out & strangle sesh.
The instructor worship is pretty real. Luckily my coaches have a great blend of taking bjj seriously, but not taking themselves too seriously. Its definitely up to the instructor ans staff to set a precedent of how to train with a purpose, and how to act in the gym when youre not.
Bjj’s online culture is pretty problematic in a way, being a giant meme fest, debating the same stuff consantly like gi vs no gi, heel hooks or not etc. The Post promotion hazing is incredibly dumb and very very awkward.
The BJJ subreddit shitpost about this is gonna be lit.
I am a complete outsider.
I get the vibe, that bjj is the cool and hip and "based" thing to do these days. It is super popular among the tech-bro, self improvement, hustle grindset, tim ferris, joe rogan type crowd.
I think it is the perception, that bjj is the "most effective" martial art around. And the "man, you will never feel more humble than when you start bjj" thing, which paradoxically will be this faux humble thing. You will go around bragging to people how humble you are about practicing this "brutal but elegant" martial art that is "like chess".
I imagine there was a similar-ish wave of popularity in the eighties or nineties or whatever with karate when it had it's cultural moment.
It is like crossfit but even better for making you feel more confident, since it is not just about being a super athlete, it is also "being able to kill any untrained man with your hands". That is surely going to feel hella good when you tell your coworkers at the office to make you feel superior.
I think you've nailed it. I'm also an outsider, and for the time being, content to remain one, mainly because of the BJJ guys who've drifted in and out of other clubs I've trained at. Almost universally, they've been toxic meatheads looking to prove they're better rather than learn. I think the narrative around BJJ effectiveness in UFC just attracts a lot of toxic people, and that can quickly infect a community.
typed up a wall of text to say you choose a poor gym/instructor, which decides your entire experience within a martial art
dont trash the art, trash the gym/teacher
Followed by lengthy diatribe explaining how offended they are.
Instructor worship is way more prevalent in more traditional martial arts than any BJJ gym I've ever trained in, and I've trained at a lot.
BJJ is right wing? What gyms have you been going to that are full of racists dude?! I've never seen a more diverse crowd of people than I have at most BJJ and MMA gyms. Keep politics out of gyms.
"Hazing" should be voluntary. You're a grown up. Say no.
Went into this expecting some weeb shit about the benefits of bowing to other human beings and referring to your instructor by all sorts of esteemed honorifics, but I pretty much agree with everything.
My gym isn't like this other than the promotion hazing, but I'm going to opt out anyway and if they refuse to promote me, oh well! This post gave me a better way to explain to my instructor (when the time comes) my discomfort with the promotion rituals, so thank you for this.
All the delusional deflection and strawmen being tossed at OP on vain defense. 😂😂
You're not wrong. But I think it’s due to the people that promote it. Joe Rogan, Jocko, etc. “Manly men” one would say. Not to say those are bad people. But they lead to young men trying to emulate masculinity. Emulated masculinity is how it turns toxic. And that's just kind of rampant on the scene at the moment.
My Bjj instructor did traditional martial arts as a kid and then did Bjj later. He's very technical. But he's a retired older guy doing it for fun. So the culture he promotes is a lot less “frat boy” like. That's why I like it there.
You know the gay jokes you described are satirical right?
People from the outside of BJJ community call it gay and the BJJ guys reply "yeah it's gay, so what?" and the OP comes with a nonsensical take that they are insecure because they are not defending it.
You sound like you tap to pressure
There are many flaws in this wall of text, but the major one that makes this rant irrelevant is the false belief that ones subjective experience of one BJJ or Judo club at some point = whole BJJ community altogether.
To me it feels you have not practiced martial arts ever, you just watched some tiktok videos on topics of Judo/BJJ and threw some prompts in chat gpt.
Dude went to one BJJ gym and wrote an entire essay about the culture of BJJ as a whole lol.
White Belt memes are funny as fuck and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. Not all martial arts / gyms need a super serious TMA attitude in order for people to learn and have a good time
That’s an awful lot of words to say you don’t like that BJJ does the same culture stuff as Judo, except people joke more and take it less seriously. Seriously, outside of the unfortunate political situation involving your martial arts, they’re both doing the exact same stuff. Why should things like sensei worship be fine for judo, but not jiu jitsu?
So, unlike you, people doing BJJ don’t take themselves too seriously?
Gotcha.
We're too laid back and don't have pretentious rituals to show the lethal force our registered weapons, know as hands can create 😂😂
BJJ mainly has the problem MMA had, Muay Thai had, Krav Maga had and Kickboxing/Karate had from the 70's to now: it's the flavor of the week. Within the martial arts community there's a certain subset of person obsessed with finding "the most effective" martial art, these are the same people who think the most expensive camera makes the best photographer, or the boomiest gun makes the biggest dick, they have this obsession because they are externalizers, the blame and solution to their problems is always found outside of themselves.
These people flock to the popular arts, ruin it for a while and once its reputation is thoroughly soiled, the few with passion can clean up the crud and go about their way.
But because these people are externalizers, their politics reflect the same, they'll try and find wisdom in having the most obscure sources, they only find humor in crossing your boundaries, try and be healthy by finding the most outlandish treatments and supplements, try and be successful by kicking the legs out from others, who summit a mountain by digging it down so they are taller.
It's a game of endurance, do the opposite of them and cultivate your strength inside by doing what's hard, not what's expensive, and welcome the ample practise you will get in allowing fools to be fools.
Whoa. Awesome thinking and writing!
Have you considered that it might not be a BJJ thing but an American thing?
My only experience with BJJ toxicity is from a kids MMA class that focused a lot more on the throws and grappling from BJJ than the actual striking. The instructor was a conservative and he would actively abuse kids to the point that even when he didn't it wasn't even questioned that he abused them, it was just kinda treated as a given. He treated anyone who was neurodivergent as an idiot and I remember this one autistic kid who, while he definitely wasn't the most vibrant of crayons, often made up for it in some other way (particularly in his marvelous handling of a bo). He bullied that kid a lot. When I finally had enough, he was treating me like I (m14 at the time) had the intellect of the 5 year old kids in the same class, completely disregarding that I was the only student with a chance to go toe-to-toe with his brown or black belt son and wiped out most of his senior students in the class. He straight up throttled a 4 year old kid for not understanding how to do a technique he was trying to teach, as if violence and its necessity in a sticky situation is supposed to be innate. He wasn't the greatest teacher either and I'm willing to bet he has some seriously unresolved anger issues.
Master Webb, if for whatever reason you should see this, you don't know the first thing about how to teach children and you need to get some serious help before you ever should be allowed to teach another child. I'd tell you to get shoulder-thrown onto a fucking caltrop but I don't know anyone strong enough to heave you across their hip, let alone hoist you over their shoulder. You killed martial arts for me for a long time and I will never forgive you for that. Those kids deserve a martial arts class, but very few of them were wretched enough to deserve you.
From my experience this toxicity is prevalent across all martial arts. It’s why I’m grateful I never stayed at one place and tried out different schools and theories of thought. Certain mindsets, immaturity, and extreme right/left wing thinking can be detrimental not only to my training but to my personal life. I’m not in there to embrace & validate superficial opinions. I’m in there to train, and if the one at the top of the hierarchy does not know how to lead, I’m out! If you hang out with five idiots long enough, you will become the sixth.
Yeah I kind of agree. I like BJJ and there's some great people in it but there is for sure a very toxic streak among a lot of the more famous grapplers and in the competitive scene in general.
To reiterate though, there are some really great people in BJJ and my gym has been great but yes I have been disappointed by some of the culture of BJJ, especially in the competition scene.
Feels pretty normal to me. The hierarchy is normal, better people make jokes about lower, but usually the better people still gives advice. The memes too, in boxing, you have trex arms or the annoying whipping jab, in BJJ, same thing.
Everyone knows that BJJ is gay. Cuddling with each other? I mean come on. What is wrong about making jokes about it. There is no need to defend it. It is effective. Why would I feel the need to defend my art when everyone already knows that it is effective. Mocking your own art is funny.
The belt promotion is just fun. I don’t know how you celebrate things but it is like getting thrown into a swimming pool. Just all fun and games. Joking around, that is the celebration.
Black belts are usually just god. Unlike black belt judokas, when you reach brown or black, you should be very, extremely skilled and knowledgeable.
Combat sports attract right wing men in general contrary to traditional martial arts. See the gym? Right wing. The right wing media encourage men to go practice combat sports and go to the gym.
edit: I kind of feel like you are kind of soft. If so, I’m not criticizing, I recommend you change gyms. It is not BJJ’s fault that you feel this way, but the gym you are in.
I was laughing so hard while reading your last paragraph 😂
If we can't joke about white belts doing dumb shit what is even the point of training?
I have no idea how bjj gay jokes make the person making them insecure. If you're uncomfortable with them, you're the one that's insecure.
YMMV.
"Mutual welfare and benefit" is baked into the central tenants of judo and very much a part of the culture. It's why you can go to judo dojos anywhere in the world and with very few exceptions be welcomed with open arms and be treated with respect even if you're a beginner.
BJJ was brought to the world by a group of guys who were rich boy thugs with big egos that weren't above lying and cheating and had for-profit motivations. That culture is still very much alive in some of the BJJ gyms I've trained at over the years but I get friendly 'judo vibes' from a vast majority of them. IME it's always the slimy, used car salesman gyms promising you could "beat anyone on the streets after training with them for six months" that are toxic.
As far as politics is concerned, I don't think I know the political leanings of anyone I've trained with in any grappling sport. I don't ask, I don't care, and it isn't why I'm there.
bjj is gay muay thai forever
Always been.
If you are experienced as a wrestler and never dealt with right wing culture or gay jokes, I have no clue how many days you actually wrestled but that’s a rarity.
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I don’t see how being able to crack jokes about your own martial art makes you “insecure”. Usually the guys who are insecure and homophobic are the ones saying “I could never wrestle/do bjj, it’s so gay”. Where as most grapplers are pretty comfortable with their sexuality and not worried about joking about it and magically turning gay.
Guys joke about stuff like this, it makes me think OP has never stepped foot on a high school wrestling mat if he thinks this is unique to bjj and not wrestling. You’ll never meet a group of guys cracking more jokes and more comfortable with themselves than in wrestling.
This split is just bizarre to me. I mean, you can of course just react with complete sincerity when people mock your art as being gay, sure. But why expend the energy? To me being able to mock your own art shows you don't take yourself or what you do overly seriously. You're dignified and secure in doing it to a point where you'd reclaim the unjust accusations stupid people make about it as jokes. Being gay is also just fine...so reacting against someone calling it gay feels needlessly defensive and insecure in itself.
Sounds like you just been to a shitty gym and/or live in a shitty area for training BJJ. Also sounds like you don’t have any friends so chill out buddy don’t take everything so seriously.
Grow TF up.
I thought this was a shitpost, no way this is real.
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My dude some of those things you're just being soft and need to lighten up, other things make me think you're going to a weird culty gym. Just find somewhere else to train BJJ if your gym hazes you and makes you worship the instructor. The other shit, yeah people joke about white belts and make gay jokes, I had my friends nuts in my face last night, it's fucking gay and I still love it and do it 5 days a week. And white belts suck, they know they suck, we all start BJJ sucking and spazzing and getting crushed. Nobody genuinely feels hate towards them or is actually homophobic. Man some people should just train aikido I swear.
Bro I thought you said I had my friend’s nut in my face, and I was like dude what does that have to do with bjj lmaooo
What do you expect from a martial art started by a bunch of gangsters? A martial art that is marketed by those same gangsters, Joe Rogan, and its own influence on the early blood sport of MMA?
It's because the Gracies are actually scumbags IRL. Helio's brother used to be the worst but I'm pretty sure he is dead now but Helio went along with his brothers really bad ideas like jumping some dude they lost to with tire irons. It's basically part of Brazils history but yeah the Gracie family used to be really bad before they hit the financial gold mine, no samurai mentality there just hood shit.
I stopped reading when you identified its toxic elements as “right wing”. Typical Reddit nonsense.
The entire post is the most Reddit Reddit post in all the Reddit land.
BJJ has been co-opted by right-wing shitheads. They’re not everywhere, but they are extremely prevalent.
BJJ rules (submission) attracts people with big ego. In each roll (spar), there's a winner and a loser which is determined by someone submitting. This is different to most striking arts where there are no winners and losers in sparring.
In striking sparring or judo randori, often the purpose is to learn, while in BJJ rolls, the purpose is to find a winner and a loser. BJJers are often way more competitive than other martial artists. So much ego in BJJ gym.
That's a really generalized take there, sounds like you've just been to some shitty BJJ gyms.
A BJJ gym like this is the exception, not the rule. Sounds to me like you aught to lighten up. And you completely lost me when you brought up politics. 😖
I see where you are coming from, but I don't think this is universal. My personal experiences certainly agree, but these are just anecdotes. On the thing about right wing culture, this is just because of the Overton window. There are just a lot of right wingers now a days because that is what our media pushes.
the whole right wing thing is amusing. I found a bjj gym locally that I wanted to try out until I checked out the instagram. The instructor is hispanic, but there is a very clear skinhead culture among many of its members. It's possible that they're former skinheads and just kept the tattoos. It's possible that their wp hand symbols in their avatars are just memes, but combined with all the dumb shit I've seen posted on their pages along with what they follow...big doubt. Next gym is an hour and a half drive. bummer.
I wish you put that projection about judo being leftist (good) and bjj right-wing (so bad) at the start, wouldn't have bothered reading the rest. This is really all that needs to be said about this.
All this diatribe and vitriol just to say left wing good, right wing bad?
Couldn’t agree more on the right wing culture I find it so odd
Leftists just want to bitch and moan about everything. Just go to your judo school or find another bjj school.
It's almost like working hard and achieving something for yourself through merit attracts a certain kind of person......
The right wing thing is 200% true and it fucking sucks.
Thoughtful write up thanks for sharing.
Trucks and punisher stickers, wanna be cops or shitty beat cops, it does attract a pretty stupid crowd
Im sure some gyms are worse than others the head instructor should set the tone for the club. I think the aspect of bjj that is completely different from every other martial art is that practice can be done at full power because of the lack of striking. This sets it up so that you are constantly being evaluated against each other which would make it hyper competitive. The other thing is Brazilian culture and japanese culture are very different.
My gym literally has none of this other than maybe some spazzy white belt jokes but even then those are kind of tame and generally anyone who's a beginner at anything will get a little teasing from more experienced people. There's also basically no reverence for higher belts in our gym, white belts can ask a brown belt to roll, no lining up or bowing either
And sure we have some people wearing "keep jui jitsu gay" shirts but we also have many gay and lesbian people training with no issues, our most popular rash guards are our rainbow tye dye rash guards, and it's becoming a tradition to paint your toe nails before a fight/comp. You can call it "mocking" our sport but it's more like we try not to take ourselves too seriously and prove ourselves on the mat. Plus who doesn't like pretty colors. I've gotten the more compliments on my tye dye gi at competitions than I do in any other aspect of my life.
And our gym is generally apolitical. We have gay, trans, black, white, Hispanic, Arab, military, cops, people coming in high, people of all backgrounds but all that stays outside of the gym and people are just there to train and learn.
Honestly it just seems like you have a shitty gym, or at least one that doesn't suit your tastes. but don't try and project your experiences onto jui jitsu as a whole cuz that's just silly.
while im sure there's a massive right wing culture in BJJ, other martial arts are hardly exempt from this. I promise you that it exists in Judo clubs and karate clubs and anything else you can think of.
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That's totally true as well. The ufc/rogan effect is a big part of BJJ's culture. I just think it's not exclusively a BJJ problem what you're describing
Here is the problem with that. The grappling arts you mention are the absolute most disciplines and prestigious martial arts on the planet. Of course most other are going to fall short compared to judo, in particular. If you were to compare to something like Krav Maga for example the conclusion would be different. I won't weigh in on the striking arts, as I am not competent to do so.
It feels like op has been in some bad clubs. I’d say a lot of bjj clubs have evolved from this all of this. Traditional arts have their fair share of hero worship with instructors, weird brainwashing too. In BJJ I think there is a lot of black belt respect because the practitioners know it’s a 10/12 year commitment with a lot of sacrifice. That is what sets it apart from being a black belt in other systems. The flip side of that is that putting in that time and having that fortitude doesn’t make you a good person in all aspects of life and their are some douche bag black belts out there in every art that take advantage of people.
The gay jokes are satire honestly. It’s so rediculous that doing a martial art would have any sexual connotation, homosexual or hetereo or anything in between. These are things that uninformed homophones say about bjj because they’ve never had someone try to choke the shit out of them or tear of their limbs - it’s not arousing in the least. I think the gay jokes are more about pointing out the absurdity of that, why would anyone be made fun of for being gay nowadays anyhow? It’s not homophobic, it’s the opposite. I do get that a closeted gay student may feel awkward about it though. At the same time It’s not something I think should be part of bjj culture. You get so close with your training partners, it’s like when you are at home with your significant other, you may make off side jokes with them thinking “we are all family here”. Building character through adversity is not bad. I think North Americans need more of it. I’m not against the shark tank at all. You aren’t being physically injured, you are showing your tenacity, that you aren’t scared of hard work, you are being celebrated in that moment and respected. Belt whipping should be 💯optional, but you know what, I would take it, I wish I got the business at my black belt ceremony honestly. That doesn’t mean I think it should be required as a rule for everyone. We are all different.
Politics should stay out of every pastime, period. The crazy conspiracy theories aren’t a bjj thing, they are a smoking too much weed thing. It’s the common thing I see in my friends that are wake and bakers.
I think the issue is more that as BJJ has become more and more popular, increasingly shitty gyms have been set up. Find a better gym, I've seen none of these tbh, although I do disagree with you on the "mocking the art" part. Taking myself too seriously is one of the things that BJJ really helped with. Sitting on people's faces and cuddling them *is* absurd. But it's wonderful, and I miss it enormously.
My gym is very welcoming the coaches r brilliant and very easy to understand but I guess I just got lucky picking it
I think it really depends on the gym. I've been training for 17 years, and have experienced very little of what you described.
Most BJJ folk I have met IRL were low key and respectful. I live in Canada FWIW. Politeness is considered next to godliness up here so could be a factor. In fact I can't think of an exception.
I do like that judo has a code of class conduct baked right into it though. I think most martial arts could stand to learn from judo culture.
My local BJJ gym is as left as it gets. Everyone shows up on scooters and EVs and go to vegan restaurants together. My judo club is full of people complaining about cia conspiracies and sending money to foreign countries. I get along with either group just fine.
I've found that the competitive striking gyms are usually the most toxic but BJJ in America is definitely a guys club which in its own way is toxic but it's more ball breaking. The two judo clubs I've trained at were chill as he'll and mostly populated by strong nerds and fewer meatheads. And wrestling is straight torture.
I've never seen anything like this. My gym is amazing. Welcoming and chill. Time to find another gym, my friend.
It varies gym by gym. Everyone's pretty chill qnd non- condescending where I train.
I found that a lot of things are racist, homophobic and otherwise not PC.. that’s the real world out there. Not every environment is a professional setting. Not everyone, especially not someone dedicating their life to a sport, will have had inclusive language, unconscious bias or diversity training. Doesn’t mean you can’t train with them.
In my own experience the BJJ environment is way less toxic than MMA
It just depends on who your instructor is. They really set the tone.
Well.... that and they're gay
First, I'd ask what state you're in.
Here in San Diego, I can't imagine ANY martial arts school being right wing or bigoted.
We're a highly diverse area and that place would quickly get 1-star reviews.
BUT, I think you hit the nail on the head with the home culture being the reason for these issues.
Japanese and S. Korean culture is VASTLY different from Brazillian, and those cultures are reflected in the art, and what's expected from it.
Bjj is fucking stupid in the opinion of someone who has trained mma and sparred using all tools
If you look at the “founders” of Bjj it’s imbedded in the culture playa. Martial Arts in general while is very self fulfilling it’s also a breading ground for toxicity.
There is no gauntlet in my gym. Not a lot of gay jokes either. I think there is less commonality among BJJ gyms than you suggest. Maybe less culture altogether.
Vaccinations and masks were required as part of the city ordinance, and this stuff was enforced - we were just happy to have the gym open again, I don't remember any actual complaining aside from waterboarding jokes.
Every BJJ gym I’ve been to has been one of the most chill martial arts schools I’ve encountered
I don’t have anything but this post to go off but you seem like a very serious fellow. Many people use humor as their way of processing the world and building relationships, not as a form of mockery or degradation.
As a white belt I also make fun of white belts. It’s funny because most jokes are true, yet harmless.
You're went to a shitty BJJ gym bro. This does not reflect the BJj culture
Wrestling in the USA has even more sarcastic/ironic gay jokes in its culture especially HS/College wrestling
And My BJJ doesnt conform to what youre describing. Every gym is different.
Imo BJJ is closer related to a sport you play with your buddies to make fun of them (like tennis, squash) than a martial art... I wouldn't change a thing, don't want it stricter, don't want it more formal, none of that. It's a fun thing to do while talking trash to ur buddies. Imo.
It’s not the art itself. Or the “culture”. It’s certain people and certain gyms and certain events. I’m not sure what left wing or right wing is in martial arts fr but that shit didn’t exist when I was younger doing martial arts and as a teen and adult I noticed that it was more clowns in BJJ, mma, wrestling, boxing and kickboxing/psuedo-Muay Thai gyms in general. Those sports and styles have more fans, hobbyists and non martial artists than the other styles, but have more competitions and sometimes higher skill levels than other styles. When dealing with a gym with 200 ppl as opposed to a gym with 40 ppl (TMA’s/judo/MT club) you’ll sometimes end up with a skewed perspective due to a higher chance of having “assholes” “ruining” the experience. That’s not always the case but that’s what happens with numbers and popularity. The same goes for fitness and weight training gyms honestly. It’s a waste of energy to pay attention to those ppl. I suggest using the block button on social media and training away from people you don’t like. 🤷🏾♂️.. once people become unbearable or if you notice they don’t practice the actual tenets of martial arts, move on to a better/different environment
BJJ is all about grabbing the gi grappling and pinning until your partner submits
Its weird, in my experience bjj has been the least toxic combat sport ive done and by FAR
I would rank toxicity on things ive done like this
Boxing>mma>kickboxing>bjj
-Ive seen the hierarchy and the sensei worship way more prevalent in the other arts
-not american so I cant talk about the politics thing, I would say my gym is a lil bit more “right winged” but its pretty even and never heard someone associate it with bjj
-gay jokes are 100% super prevalent but I think its kinds funny and shows not being homophobic and confidence in our sport tbh, not the other way around
The only 2 guys ive heard being mad at this where a judoka who didnt like it cause it wasnt “serious” and a guy who geniuenely told us he was homophobic and those jokes bothered him
I always discuss who I am voting for when grappling.
Doesn't everyone?
Explore other gyms. Focus on the martial art. You won't have time for political conversations unless you're looking for it.
I have been training for fourteen years and have brown belts in jiujitsu and judo… I’ve traveled a lot due to work and gotten to train in Europe and the USA on multiple coasts . I’ve visited a ton of academies and trained consistently at a lot of different places.
I’ve seen a lot of what you’re talking about at some places but not others. The judo schools DEFINITELY place more emphasis on tradition and respect but most of the jiujitsu schools I’ve been to do the same - it might not be as formal but you certainly wouldn’t hear a lot of gay jokes for instance.
Unfortunately there are plenty of different shades of this and it’s important to try a lot of different academies before settling on one. For every toxic academy there’s another that’s amazing.
From what I've read, you go to a shitty gym.
I think your interpretation is off on some of these:
BJJ people poke fun at BJJ not because they are insecure, but because they are secure. They actually think BJJ is freaking awesome, highly effective and they love it. It's the insecure people who constantly have to talk about how cool their art is, don't tolerate jokes, and talk about how weak other arts are. If any thing, BJJ people talk very highly of other combat sports and are comfortable pointing out the short comings of BJJ.
BJJ humor is often very self effacing. BJJ has a very active online community, which means lots of memes. All belts are ridiculed, not just white belts: Blue belts suck/quit, purple belts are always late, brown belts are fat and bald, black belts harass their female students, etc. This is more collective self-effacement than anything else. Even when upper belts poke fun at lower belts, it's really them poking fun at how bad they were when they were there. It's all in good fun.
BJJ has a very casual culture, which means people will speak their minds more. And yes, that means philosophizing off topic and airing political views that would be hidden in more formal environments. As for left/right, I would like to see BJJ compared to MMA, wresting, and some of the striking combat sports.
Oss
Your dojo must suck. My five year old has been going for a year and the whole atmosphere is respectful and supportive throughout.
This isn’t a bjj problem, it’s a get out of your current dojo and find somewhere else that isn’t rife with pricks kind of a problem. Don’t let there crap mentality ruin what your enjoying.
This sounds like a pretty individual experience as my Jujitsu (albeit more free style/traditional than bjj) is nothing like this.
There's a little bit of a 'lad culture' but I think that has more to do with how severely of the members are ex military than the sport itself. The coach is very concerned about welfare, and when I said to him that I was a bit uncomfortable with someone he paid his full attention and has made an effort not to pair us up again.
There's no hazing or bullying, but more of a "if you're a dick in sparring then expect people to also be a dick"
Interesting post, although I think there are plenty of generalisations in it. I think you're very sensitive and not from the west so some of the stuff might be lost on you. For example, doing the 'gay' jokes is fun, having a frat house culture is fun, bit of hazing can be fun.
But overall, I think lots of these criticisms miss the heart of BJJ... It's a ridiculous, 'martial art' where you get dressed up in pyjamas or bike shorts to wrestle with the same sex on the floor. It was basically stolen from Judo Ne Waza by a family who used to own circuses. It's a martial art where attempting to go pro will basically ensure you go broke and can't walk properly.
The heart of BJJ is rolling around play wrestling with your sibling when you were young, it's not about the combat, it's about the relationships you form.
That's my opinion and I hope you can find some joy in it OP.
The only thing true about this for me is getting whipped/shark tanked. Wich is very optional in my club. Everything else is a pretty sweeping generalization of bjj clubs based on your one experience. Id hit a few more bjj clubs as im certain you've just run into a "bad egg" so to speak.
I will say I've never had the problem, but I've seen on r/bjj some people complaining about mega egotistical instructors. All of mine have been great tho.
Hierarchy: I make fun of white belt moves” I do because I still see myself sometimes as a white belt, It’s kind of like making fun of the belt hierarchy because we all remember being white belts and we all have white belt moments or feel like white belts at times, it can be humbling and cathartic
Sexual jokes: look I’m not going to defend sitting on another man’s face in north south. I’m 69ing another dude while we both wear pajamas. I accept it. Don’t take it too seriously
Hazing: I’m against any non-consensual hazing. Personally, I find shared suffering and shared experiences bonding, and not a punishment, I didn’t mind the gauntlet. But of course nobody should be made to feel pressured.
Instructor Worship: the concept of worshipping your instructor is absurd. Unless it’s me. All other instructors are heretics and everyone should bow to me.
Right wing culture: sounds like a “your gym” problem. Nobody I know at the gym goes to talk politics. I’m sure I’d disagree with other gym members on some things. But I’ll never know, and that’s how it should be.
You must get invited to a lot of parties.
This, this is what them kids call yappenese
I'm going to guess that your dataset is not much more than a single club. I travel a bunch for work and otherwise and always make it a point to stop in to local BJJ clubs - I strongly disagree with a lot of these assertions.
Overall my experience with jiu jitsu has been very positive. It's very welcoming and the live practice keeps people humble. Also, I throw my belt on the ground all the time.
There are definitely things I don’t like about BJJ culture and I’ve met more assholes in BJJ than I have in Judo, but coming from Judo I think there are just different flavours of toxic in different arts and different flavours of toxic in different countries where the arts are practiced.
BJJ toxic flavour - I see more bad behaviour at tournaments, more ego, more bad behaviour from top competitors online and at tournaments, bad behaviour I haven’t seen in over 20 years of Judo, and the lengths it takes to get a blackbelt gives them unusual power and authority which definitely some people are prone to abuse.
But in Judo I’ve seen many things just as bad and the worst things are much worse:
Small Judo countries are very toxic in some ways because it’s a small system and easier to get power in, and since they have a small amount of top athletes and coaches they get away with some crazy shit that I won’t go into here.
Hazing is very much a thing in Judo too and at its worst it is much worse than BJJ. Overseas I saw stuff like:
.People knocking their apprentices out for fun .Sleep depriving them .Injuring people on purpose .Targeting foreigners to rough them up on the mats
People tend to compare BJJ to Japanese TMA like Judo and Jiu Jitsu, but they don’t understand what the culture of those arts used to be.
At one point in Judo you couldn’t tap and reliably have it be respected. Pre War Judo was kill or be killed, if you get armlocked it’s probably getting broken. Pretty much everything in Japan has an apprenticeship based learning component which has some weird characteristics:
.You must protect your apprentice, except from those who you give permission to abuse them
.You must teach them as much as you can
.You are allowed to abuse them in various ways, physical, servile, emotional, and when they graduate out of the apprenticeship they can do the same to their apprentice
.They do menial tasks for you but you are expected to financially support them in various ways like helping them to pay for their food
This system is being phased out in favour of a healthier more modern apprenticeship system, but it is a real thing and the greatest Judoka of the last 10 years or so, Shohei Ono, he got in trouble for shattering a junior student’s ear drum for not training hard enough.
I would bet any sum or money imaginable that the exact same shit is going on in Korea in the honorable TKD which you reference.
It also varies greatly by club. My Judo club and BJJ club are great places to train, neither are perfect and both cultures have improved since the earlier iterations - the Judo one used to be smash everybody no matter the belt level and let the tough ones survive and progress, the BJJ one initially struggled with retention coz fresh off the boat Brazilians tend to crank subs, even during demonstrations.
I’d recommend both in a heart beat and both clubs are respectful in competition, helpful to new members, have good standards for grading and instructors that really care and go above and beyond.
If you look at how BJJ became popular and took hold, i.e. the Gracie's and the OG UFC, it's all based on beating people up, not self-defense or any kind of tempered martial philosophy. Roots bear fruits.
You simply go to a shitty gym. Good ones exist..
Some of this seems legit, some seems like it might be your gym, but when I wrestled in school we said a lot of gay stuff dude.
I live in Sweden, so maybe it’s different but I recognize absolutely nothing of the stuff I read about bjj on here.
While I sometimes wish there was more of an established code of conduct in bjj, I also recognize that’s in intertwined with the decentralized, Wild West nature of the sport (contrast it to a more centralized art like judo).
Does that stand for Blowjob judo?
I think you make some good points but I'm not like that and not everyone is. Plus I live in a multi-cultural area and being racist would be extremely weird.
Only gripe with my gym is the shark tank. Higher belts just don’t let me practice anything. They want to get maximum taps in the 5 minute sprawl. Some of them do teach while rolling. But most of them want to submit beginners within 10-20s. Also, some of them complain when I rely on braun vs technique. Thats the only thing I can use vs your 5+ years of rolling.
Funny how you say BJJ attracts right wingers who want to be manly when it’s the most submissive martial art in history
Imagine deliberately putting yourself in missionary in front of a man and thinking you’re threatening
My gym does not really sexualize bjj—thank goodness, but politics do seep in (we have a huge blue lives matter American flag, a huge red lives matter flag), & there was a sign up sheet last year to watch The Sound of Freedom. And don’t get me started on the car stickers…
It's due to the people who promote the sport (Joe Rogan etc.) and also the fact that people got it in their head that JJ is unanimously the best martial art ever somehow. I'm going to be honest, if you have to fight in the street last place you want to be is on the ground. Still useful but yeah.
Imma level with you just join an Akhada, I’ve had similar experiences with BJJ practitioners. If you can find an Akhada in the west let me know. Seems you know Kushti anyway so may as well.
I'd blame the UFC for the type of mentalities described in the OP.
You can't just win the fight, you have to be a "hard ass" too. Lol, my guess is the people needing to flex on a rookie just haven't won that many fights themselves.
BJJ suuuuucks. They're always cocky and arrogant.
“My experience is all experience.”
None of the gyms I have been in were remotely like you described. All the guys the had slightly more ‘macho’ vibe - always train other things - MMA GUYS - (this is quite possibly due to it being a quote competitive sport)
As for your political experience- AGAIN the opposite of my experience. We generally have an unspoken rule - no politics in the gym - but I do know that the most right-wing views in the gym are from the Judoka (which I personally believe has ZERO correlation) who cross trains.
My only experience in a BJJ gym was that they were mostly unfriendly, put on tough guy demeanors (even the little kids), and seemed cocky. Was a pretty informal setting too. I was used to more structure and respect in karate.
I went to one toxic place when I first started. I’m 6’3 and the instructor was 5’8 and we were messing around as he got me into bjj he was basically practicing on me which I was ok with. I’ve been learning at this point for 4 months and he is. 15 yr veteran of bjj.
Anyways I was on top of him as he was trying to do an elbow escape then he stopped and was doing somethjng else, and something In me clicked. His chest was wide open and his left arm was going across my chest. I popped up as fast as I could putting my hands on his chest as I elevated , this caught him off guard , his left arm was just there , so I grabbed it and swung my leg around and got him in a perfect arm bar.
Needless to say this hurt his ego bad. In my mind it was just dumb luck and he was using me as fodder so he was not all there mentally ready to take me out he was just messing around but I got him. He made my life in that class hell for 2 weeks then issue fuck this and left to another place that was a dream. Been a few years and I still talk to those guys. Old instructor. Not at all
Microcosm: is club dependant and probably country dependent to a lesser (?) Degree... Macrocosm: I hate to say it, but he might be right!!? We can only influence our environment, so perhaps we just be mindful of what we do and say, and how we interact online?
My experience with bjj is that the folks there tend to have a chip on their shoulder. A lot more than the other arts.
Yeah dude all the Bjj guys I know smoke weed and are chill af
I skimmed this. I hate the homophobia and misogyny inherent in a lot of BJJ gyms. I can’t say I agree that it’s inherently right wing. I’ve had a lot of conversations that make me believe it’s pretty even.
I’ve kind of noticed this too. Egos get checked in the disciplines you mentioned. Easily, and swiftly. Guys tend to be quieter in my experience growing up boxing. This is just my observation of the sport in the broader not necessarily what I’ve experienced first hand. You don’t see anyone doing grab ass cringe-y shit in boxing or sambo lol.