A lot of people, especially game/app devs don't know how big of a deal linux desktop is, and I know i'm stating the obvious but Hear me out.
Linux is great not just for consumers, but for companies and governments too. It creates real competition instead of everyone being locked into one vendor’s ecosystem. No forced upgrades, no random license changes, no “pay more or lose support” nonsense. You actually own your stack.
just imagine the power of being able to optimize for your own apps and games (bcuz most linux distros are community based), even big companies can optimize for their games. or govs making changes to distros or making their own distros to perfectly suit their needs, instead of relying on Microsoft or other big companies, saving millions of dollars in the process.
and if a linux distro is screwed, companies can always jump shift to other distros, i mean Microsoft has pretty much screwed Windows 11 but people and companies will still rely on it because its just that popular. Hardware companies ship their computers with windows because its what most software is made for, software companies develop for windows because its where most consumers are, and consumers buy windows computers because its what most computers come with, if we break this stupid cycle everyone will benefit.
its a power that we aren't taking advantage of, its a matter of time until RISC-V CPUs come on top, probably in a few decades, it doesn't make sense to not embrace open source in the OS department too.
Pretty sure they do know... that it's a small percentage. And out of that small percentage, an even smaller percentage even plays games. Trust me, if the profit motive is there, they will pay more attention.
I agree with you there and likely this whole sub, but you're preaching to the choir. Your average Joe/Jill doesn't really care about "owning your stack". In fact, they're even happy to be inside a walled garden like Apple's. Apple, in particular, have a very fierce loyal fan base that think that Apple can do no wrong. Also, upgrades do need to be forced for your average casual users. Left to their own devices, your grandma/grandpa will never upgrade their systems, running terribly outdated insecure software. This is where Apple shines because you can guarantee that basically 90% of their userbase is on the latest update.
EDIT: I find it funny that people that reply to me keeps mentioning Microsoft when I didnt even bring the up. In fact, my comments specifically singles out Apple. And frankly, as far as "trapping you in", Apple is way more evil than Microsoft is. You can at least run Windows on any PC, you cannot run MacOS outside of their hardware and Hackintosh is basically also dead with the advent of Apple Silicon. I guess Linux people loves Apple for some reason?
I think the time has come for Linux to challenge the enterprise sector of Microsoft. The opportunity is open more than it's ever been. Microsoft seems to be losing grip and trust especially among its smaller customers, who have a better shot at making the switch away from their products. For these smaller customers is where I think a solid enterprise suite for Linux could come into play, where things are cheaper, easier to manage and they'd usually have a few dedicated team members to do the sysadmin stuff. Then the quality of the product will do the rest of the work. Microsoft's strategy of locking people in, and the headache of support/MS apps/AI only works because options are limited. We can see on the personal OS side, Linux has finally started to take a small interest among the general population and with the gaming sector also getting a massive contribution from Valve the market share of windows will probably continue to drop. People seem to forget the impression that something leaves is strong and usually long lasting, for most windows users it is a negative one before they finally decide to switch, and are unlikely to return. The same thing can happen in enterprise if a good enough Linux alternative can be released. Only then will Microsoft decide to improve their services, because only then will it cost them profits.
MS is trenching in. Entra ID, intune portal, defender. Making security encompass both user AND system accounts. Soon Linux will be even less of an option than it is today.
You speak of enterprise sector but it's too late I think. I mean, there still is no good finished solutions for integrating Linux clients to AD/Entra.. You have to spend tons of time creating the wheel yourself. You dont win over a market segment with that.
Yeah true. I guess larger organizations are basically locked in forever, but smaller and new orgs have a shot. Problem is Linux would need a whole solution, that means even ditching entra/AD for a Linux native solution. Pretty sure nothing like this exists yet but would be cool if something came up to challenge them.
Yeah. MS is good at what they are doing. Forcing customers into using their products and making it almost impossible for customers to use something else. I too have a hope of a more diversified future, but the road there is a long one.
Yeah 😭. But as they say, where there's a will there's a way hahah hopefully someone can cook something up.
Red Hat’s public sector business agrees
Eh, you’re quite right and I don’t disagree. But its also like talking about socialist policies to the average Joe or Jill where they agree with them, until they learn they’re socialist policies. Its an exposure problem, and Steam deck and the Win11 fiasco will at least expose more to the fun customizeable parts of Linux. Even if they don’t care about the nerd shit.
I think one solution to insecurity on Linux could be something like RHEL or a commercial arm of Canonical. It would still be Linux, but the security patch service would be paid upfront when you buy the machine.
Literally so much of this.
What’s the reason people that are jumping ship to Linux are giving for doing so?
It’s because Apple and Microsoft have both committed to some god awful OS design that makes day to day usage of those machines hassle and trying Linux is free.
Hell, all the AI stuff has made tons of computers stop running well enough for average consumers. I have an M3 MacBook Air (8gb RAM) from just before they switched the baseline to 16GB RAM.
I have a web browser and a terminal open (nothing RAM intensive) and I’m having to actually mange my RAM to avoid the thing slowing down to a crawl.
I’m literally having to consider upgrading a computer that’s only a little over a year old (or figure out how to downgrade the OS).
I think that's not the AI stuff and more like the stupid
liquid glassthing of MacOS/iOS 26. It basically imposes such a heavy performance penalty for what is essentially pure eye candy.I recently reinstalled Windows 11 in a VM because I needed access to visual studio's compiler to build a windows binary. Holy shit I was just not prepared for how bad it is now. The install experience is
Windows is going to wipe everything. OK? Ok.
Here's a bunch of ads for paid services
Welcome to windows. Heres some more ads.
BTW you don't have a home folder now. Thats in OneDrive. And we only give you 5GB so you're going to fill that pretty quickly if you don't know wtf you're doing.
Start menu? oh we moved it. And made it useless. And now there's ads where you don't expect it.
Want to turn anything off or change a setting? We hid it all or removed it. So you have to use regedit.
don't get me started on the AI shit.
You could not pay me to use it as my daily driver anymore.
Contrast this with Linux
Most distros have a flexible partitioning tool built in with easy to use defaults.
There's no ads, few distros have paid services, they are unobtrusive.
Your data is on your device.
Traditional app launcher experience in most distros, or you can go wild and do things completely differently if that's your jam.
Full featured distros like Bazzite make every setting and config option obvious. I am amazed how much Bazzite just worked out of the box on my weird Alienware laptop and that I only needed to drop to shell for a couple of package installs.
There's just such a slew of distros now that range from super technical and niche for people who love to tinker, all the way to really easy to install and use day to day for people who don't.
Windows 11 is garbage. Its killing itself. Year of the Linux Desktop!
For me the last straw (I actually have been using Debian on my laptop for years but I had a Windows gaming desktop that I now want to just gtfo of Windows hell entirely) was the decision to put ads in Outlook. Where they look identical to emails but take you to some product website.
Like the OS is literally generating spam emails in my mail client. Enough is enough with this crap.
My last straw was a combination of my PC not being 11 compatible and my OS drive dying. After using a Steam Deck for some time, I was confident I wouldn't miss it at all. That's been 99% true. That 1% is not being able to play Fortnite with my kid, because that's his goto game. I did recently learn about Xbox Cloud Gaming, which is apparently free for some games, so I'll have to give that a try.
My last straw was the Copilot AI bullshit.
Worth it IMO. I really do spend more time fiddling with my computers now that I've gone full linux + personal cloud + privacy phone, especially time spent for setup, but I also get tons more OUT of my tech for the effort. It also saves me a lot of money on cloud services, OS upgrades, Apple tax, etc.
Thank god for GPO policies. I only use Windows 11 on my work laptop and have to deal with none of that bullshit.
Yeah I work in IT as well and it really does feel like Windows Enterprise is the only decent version of Windows.
I switched 3 years ago, has it really gotten this bad this quickly?
https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/s/woFgFrutn4
that's actually wild, this would have been considered adware by most people 5-10 years ago and now it's an official feature.
Good list of some of the things wrong with Windows.
Use business or edu edition, its much more bearable then pro or home edition
Windows 11 also is the OS that made me jump off. I already migrated a lot to Mac OS. But this didn’t work for everything. So for ~25% I still had to boot up the cancer partition every now and then. Now it’s Linux and Mac OS. Life is good.
I like to put it that way: Windows 11 is more of the crap, that people hated on Windows 10 already. And less of useful Windows 7 relics, that made 10 still somewhat usable.
10 is the last “alright” windows release. 11 is ass. I have some 10 installs I’ll be holding onto for as long as possible (I know they’ll pull some shit though).
Used 10 for a long time too. You can get it to work properly and efficient enough. People coming from 7 will miss things, and there are ways to get them back. And with a whole weekend of tweaking and regedit diving, 10 is fine. I guess.
11 is all over the place and I don’t ever bother trying to fix that shit.
Yep. I've got a long notes doc of all the various little tweaks I've done to tune my 10 installs (mainly so I don't forget them). It wouldn't be directly transferrable to 11 and I don't see the point anyways as I have zero desire to touch it.
Microsoft is a big dumb animal and they deserve everything eventually coming to them.
That’s what you get for throwing over your whole userbase. I don’t feel bad for them.
Should’ve made me a list too. A couple of years ago I did a windows 10 installation thinking „nah, can’t be that bad. I’ll remember everything once it’s running“.
Took a forever. Half of it is hidden behind multiple links and layers as you know.
Then I used windows 11 for a couple of months at work and had flashbacks. Swore to myself I’ll do anything to not use that garbage ever again.
Yeah. Not looking back. Linux and Mac OS is a perfect allround solution in 2025 that covers basically everything for everyone. From generic web work over office, media editing of any kind, CAD, development, hosting, storage and even high end gaming thanks to proton is perfectly fine.
Yeah my dad had recently gone through this transferring my parents OLD Windows 10 box to a new machine with 11 Pro. I told him to wait until I got there.
He thought my unplugging the network cable to install Windows 11 was absolute madness. Complaining the entire time. Until it boots up and he see's.... No ads. No demand for an online account. And he looks at me like I'm some kind of warlock and asks, "WAIT. How did you do that?"
"Well. You can't have ads without an online provider. You can't have an online account if you have no internet. And I told you go for Pro so we can...."
... Then proceed to lock everything down including windows update because fuck forcing any of that further AI Shit on there. Nevermind setting up a RealVNC connection so I can hop in and 'fix' what Microsoft is going to inevitably break.
On the flip side, he did miss my installing KDE Fedora on a separate partition. Which. I'm sure in six months they'll be mainlining into a vein out of frustration.
We didn't get to 11 and barely tasted 10. MS sabotaging Windows 7 was enough to abandon it.
Use Rufus to build the installer, then you get local account. Yes, you indeed need a third party workaround just to get a feature like that.
Yeah I can't wait for Microsoft in particular to crumble. We're also getting more and more FOSS options for cloud services, not just the OS. Most people still have no idea about the self-host ecosystem, e.g. /r/NextCloud (replaces Dropbox and Google docs). The Europeans dumped tons of money into Dropbox precisely to break their reliance on big tech, especially at the government level. Thank you, Europeans!
Why do Linux users lie about stupid things like this to try and make Linux look better? I don't get it. This is clearly incorrect.
Why do people assume lie when a mistake is more likely?
Even so, you haven’t said how it is wrong.
Windows does place most default folders in OneDrive, and free capacity is limited. This can and does annoy some users, including many less savvy ones who don’t know how to change that configuration.
The default home folders aren't in OneDrive, no. They're still local. There additional ways to store them in OneDrive, yes. But the home directories are local. So the above commenter is really trying to stretch that truth there.
The default Documents and Desktop are in OneDrive, yes? Or that's an option presented to users early and in a fairly confusing way.
It's an option presented, but it's not the default, contrary to how this poster is attempting to paint the situation.
It’s probably enabled more often than not, leading people to believe it’s the default, but you’re probably correct also.
I can also cede this point
What are your thoughts on Windows 10 LTSC IoT?
Linux distros absolutely lose support. Some offer the option for paid extended security updates.
Linux does not come with support, you have to pay for support and it’s expensive
Windows doesn't really come with any functional "support" either. Enterprise just has enough money to be upcharged.
I’ve called Microsoft before because of a windows issue, they weren’t a lot of help but the fact you can get any support for a $100 windows license is pretty cool
What kind of issue? I don't realistically see anything they'd be willing to help with other than activating your license.
It was a licensing issue
So the only support they give you for $100 is the facilitation of that $100 transaction. That's the same level of support that Linux has.
ETA: And you even said they weren't a lot of help, so Windows actually has worse support than Linux.
The windows license fee is literally a rental fee.
MS put in the work to convince other companies to support it for them. You can walk into any big box store or IT shop and they will either fix your install or format it and start fresh.
For Linux I would not trust them to format and start fresh, never mind attempting a repair. That's assuming they will even accept the device. Real Linux experts IRL are few and far between outside of the enterprise. Which is a huge problem for the average person, who is largely unable to navigate forums and google.
Yeah OP clearly hasn't looked at the RHEL or Ubuntu pro support pricing.
ubuntu pro?
https://ubuntu.com/pro
thanks papi
I can't parse this sentence.
He expect Free Labor from Upstream Developer.
linux does come with support for free its called the millions of people that use it and produce and maintain documentation
That’s not support, windows also has documentation
This smug ass penguin
Pepe-nguin
What will *really* happen if the world switches to Linux is that Windows will switch to the Linux kernel and pre-install their bloatware infested "Linux Distro" on all computers sold just like they do now. Then everyone complain that Linux sucks because they still won't understand that they can just install another distro.
That's the dream, imagine all the money and dev time going into Linux...
Admittedly, it would be wonderful for us. But there would be so many scammy distros out there. I can just imagine how many relatives will be calling me for help after installing Linux Spearmint or Ubontu, or Arc Linux by mistake.... :)
In this future people still will not be installing their own Linux distros. They'll use what's on their device by default.
The actual concern is a repeat of what's happened with Android where device manufacturers shit out a distro with garbage that then stops getting updated after two years, with no publicly availble drivers to make that machine run anything other than their abandoned distro. Even Windows had to put their foot down with refreshing the PC to provide a true clean install without vendor bloatware, I don't see laptop manufacturers deciding to behave themselves once they have the ability to put their slop out to monetize their customers past what Windows permits.
I mean hell, look at SteamOS. Sure, great distro, but it's very much designed to make using Steam convenient and anything else not so much. Even if you can run non-Steam games as shortcuts in game mode, unless you're installing third party plugins or setting up systemd services yourself you're not getting the benefit of things like automatic updates for other game platforms. Not really something I think is entirely in Valve's court, mind, but it's not like they decided to put their money on Kodi and making Steam work really well with that instead to make for a launcher-agnostic OS that's far, far more customizable than Valve's own Game Mode.
That's with a company that wants to push Linux. You really think manufacturers making low end devices for broke people aren't going to ChromeOS it up?
Its one thing not switching when some apps don’t work. If you were not switching if this was not the case, this would be on you.
I actually think a version of Microsoft Windows that uses Wine for back compat wouldn't be that bad, but I think the lack of a C drive would throw everyone through a loop, and they'd probably have to create some sort of Microsoft specific version of D-bus or systemd that windows sysadmins can readily use.
Also the lack of kernel level anticheat would probably pose an issue, unless Microsoft is doing something really screwy to isolate xbox games.
edit: I think Linux on Windows is a pipe dream, but I'd be very interested to see how Microsoft would create a consumer facing distro that plays to the strengths of Linux but still makes sense for a Windows audience.
I'm pretty much just being cynical. But if Microsoft switched to Linux, especially if it was done as an upgrade rather than a reinstall, kernel-level anti-cheat would be gone in a day. Or replaced with something compatible.
To answer your edit, they wouldn't. It would be just as awful as it in now, just slightly different. :)
Why would computer manufacturers take MS Linux over other options? The reason they do it now is because customers want Windows, and there's only one provider. If customers want Linux...there's endless options, and Microsoft's wouldn't be anywhere close to the best. They would have to pay manufacturers instead of getting paid. They'd lose money on every 'sale'.
No, the reason Windows is on every computer is because Microsoft pays a lot of money and has strategic partnerships to make sure of it.
Umm...citation needed? Is the line item on their balance sheet claiming they make billions licensing Windows to OEMs a lie, then, or...?
It works both ways. Microsoft is an unapologetic monopolist they will charge money for licenses when they are dealing with a trapped client but simultaneously give licensing deals to retailers to get new customers. It's the classic dope dealer game: first hit is free. Well it's not really free, it was paid for in the belief that you'll be paying it back many times over soon enough.
They give licensing deals, absolutely. That doesn't mean they pay companies to ship with Windows; they just give them a discount (possibly to the point where they provide Windows for free, which is why they have to supplement their income with ads in the OS).
I'm absolutely not defending Microsoft, here. I'm just saying the reality is that customers have traditionally demanded Windows on their computers. You've been able to order computers with Linux installed since the early 00s, and yet basically everybody still picked Windows.
Microsoft absolutely made exclusivity deals with major OEMs: if you want to be able to sell Windows at all, you can only sell Windows. They used every bit of leverage they had to give Windows an advantage over Linux (and other OSes), and to keep customers locked in.
But they always made money doing it. They benefited from that lock-in.
If you can kick away the locks, and Microsoft has to compete on a fair playing field, they don't have a hope in hell. "MS Linux" is no threat whatsoever.
I think they if they did switch, they would try to change as little about the frontend as possible, abstracting it to the point where the average user wouldn't even know that the kernel has been swapped. Everyone will still just complain that Windows sucks
30 years, same clueless outlook
Whenever I read posts like these, I wonder if these authors ever see the real world behind their distorted computer screens
It's crazy the hoops people jump through to keep the Apple/Microsoft duopoly going.
Yep
Software patents are the root of all evil. It was the original sin that created the tech aristocracy and it has to be undone before we can unwind the damge.
Yeah, there's a reason nobody wants to own their stack. It's too much work.
Linux has always been the master race.
If we like something and want people to use it, can we please stop tying it to some of the worst shit in history with this "master race" crap?
yeah like i can give the PCMR subreddit a bit of a pass since that was in response to a specific joke and before nazis became a major political force again, but there's zero reason for us to touch that shit. we already have to deal with actual fascist linux influencers, don't give them space to operate.
Oh shit, like who?
I think this is a situation of 'careful what we wish for'.
Please don't pepe tux bro
Imagine owning the things that you've bought!
Software vendors don't want to support tons of different distros, and governments certainly don't want to develop or maintain their own distro.
lol ….
Linux desktop growth is a snail pace. There is a reason why the most commonly used Linux is chrome os and android. Them being locked down makes it easy for people to develop and maintain.
I’ve said this before and it’s funny how much people get upset. One of the biggest things that holds Linux desktop from becoming mainstream is the Linux community / mindset.
All the different distros not doing things the same and all the options of how todo things is what really holds it back from being main stream.
linus torvalds has basically pointed this out in the past and even restated it in the recent video of building a pc with ltt.
Take KDE plasma , kubuntu vs cachyOS. Just take Their own KRDP software , it is broken on kubuntu but works on other distros. It Is a good example of how having so many options causes issues for devs. Instead of being able to release one version like they can with windows or Mac, they ether have ti trust each distro community to make the needed fixes etc, spend a lot of money todo a lot of testing that won’t catch every thing . Or maybe not worry about one distro/package type ie why you see some companies only offer a .deb file.
It’s fine for open source stuff that is a hobby from the peopel behind it. But it won’t work for legit software from for companies.
Imagine in governments used Linux (among other FOSS) and used taxpayer money to reinvest back into the open source ecosystem instead of licensing fees.
Keep going. . . the license fees are then used to fund the stock buyback.
its backwards compatibility is bad. try to run an old Ubuntu binary on the latest Ubuntu.
In reality ... it would be a support nightmare. There's a reason why 3rd party vendors only support one or two distros.
Any day now
tbf this is a thing on linux but its mostly for businesses
This is a good thing actually, businesses want and need paid support.
Linux dominating will also increase the trust of everyone in free software, and that is great
I'm happy with Linux being 3rd place on the desktop and slightly out of view for MBA bros.
If it becomes a major desktop OS the powers that be will turn it into complete crap. Just look at Windows.
In the place where I live, they got Linux at schools and government offices (ubuntu and mint btw)
Europe?
Wonderful
Yeah my Spanish ex-GF had an Ubuntu Lenovo work laptop. The education department of the region she lived in had switched from Windows to Linux.
Real
tbh i'm currently wondering if Debian could be worth a damn to be a swiss army knife; maybe not the fastest, but can game. maybe not the most stable in certain aspects but certainly can run all my windows apps.
Difference in performance between distributions is marginal (at best).
If that's the question Debian is actually very reliable ; "stable" usually refers to software that "do not change".
don't tell that to the cachy guys
It used to be the Gentoo guys, hey I complied everything from the source using all the optimization flags for my specific hardware , and after 48 hours it finally finished, my benchmark show a 2.8% increase in performance.
sure, but a 2.8% increase in performance when you didn't even compile it yourself is pretty nice. there's a reason upstream arch is working on adopting that appraoch, as well as ubuntu. better performance with no compromise is a thing that takes a lot of effort when programming.
not saying that people should be expecting a 50% increase in their FPS in video games, of course, you're still using the steam runtime, the promise was always a modest increase. it's just a modest increase that doesn't involve you turning off features or anything.
Arch and Ubuntu are looking into this? Tell me more.
Well that's the point, games are not being recompiled with optimization because they are not open source. So the games themselves see little benefit.
And most people can't tell that Firefox is 3% faster .
Their dependencies were, though - this is why SteamOS outperforms other distros considerably on the Steam Deck even when they all use more or less the same Steam Game Mode session. Only CachyOS matches it in benchmarks because it did the same thing. CPU bound games were most impacted. Free performance is free performance, it is nonsense to argue against it because you wanted 50% more frames instead of 2-10%.
This is no longer the case as the stram-native package is no longer being maintained.
And now you can get that precompiled. That's honestly awesome, although I imagine it mostly helps with 1 percent lows.
Fanboys cannot be bothered to look up benchmark figures.
And I understand: I would not try to back up my claims for 1.25% of increase in performance on my machine.
i mean im certainly not someone who needs the latest and greatest, unless it's warranted. At best what i would like is to make Debian Windows-like but retain the KDE charm, run older software that may be pirated or some shit, and game
You don't wanna game with old drivers. Fixes come with new ones.
I've run debian for a long time as my primary desktop. Its great. The only real drawback is that it, by design, lags so far behind the bleeding edge that you can be waiting months or years before a fix that hit the kernel or drivers or libraries hits debian stable.
Perfectly fine if the games you run work fine anyway, but if you're running things like cyberpunk 2077 or other modern titles you may have a patchy experience. Its one reason I went to Arch.
Yeah yeah I know you can go to Debian testing or whatever. At which point, whats the point. Just use Arch lol.
debian is still the king on my home server tho.
Well my PC has... opinions. Fedora, while i like the concept, can't really come to terms with it. Arch-actual and Endeavour run like ass but for some reason Manjaro and CachyOS are alright, Linux Mint is kinda eh for me given software incompatibility issues i had and OpenSUSE refused to go beyond the "-" the last time i tried it. What a load of shit, so it's Debian or CachyOS for a long-term for me. I have paper-thin patience as a 20 year old and Arch validates it: there's a reason why i used Windows for 15 years and it ain't because it can be a project
Like i just want all the basics working with or without the terminal, i don't care about ricing too much; i just need a good enough excuse to excommunicate Windows as a daily driver and gaming system. Would say my PC is enough of a warhammer with a 9800X3D x 64GB Ram and a 4090 to eat up Cyberpunk with mods.
I was kind of shocked how well Bazzite (KDE) runs. The only trick is, you don't customize it beyond maybe setting a theme and a wallpaper, lol.
But installing apps if they're in flathub or games from steam? seamless, and everything so far works perfectly on my gaming laptop, and I basically maintain that one for the mrs to use.
Still wouldn't want it for my daily driver but its great if you want a "I don't want to fuck with it just fucking work" distro.
I have the exact same CPU & GPU on my workstation/gaming rig and run Omarchy because the guys did a great job of making a Hyprland based config that Just Works (tm). So if you like tiling compositors give those a try if you ever get the itch.
I love CachyOS and it generally ran most games I threw at it without any issues, but got sick of trying to make Hyprland work well. I knew it was possible, it was just all the random shit.
Honestly fuck Hyprland and fuck Vaxry anyways. Krohnkite script + geometry change KDE effect + Bismuth window decorations together will get you 80% there with a much better supported compositor that is actually getting Valve money and supports new features much sooner. And you get the benefit of having a for-real DE with all the bells and whistles, though you could of course swap all those out for waybar and sway notification center if you wished and still benefit from Kwin just being a much better made project.
The main drawback is that Krohnkite still doesn't have true btree support, though it's being worked on. And that is a serious drawback, using what it currently calls "btree" can be an exercise in frustration as windows spawn well away from where you're actually working and won't let you do the most common sense things like having one big window and lots of smaller windows you're using as a reference. But I'd much rather put up with that than rely on Vaxry's ability to play nice with others to deal with security vulnerabilities.
tiling managers is interesting but not something i really care about. i just need a competent OS that can do a bit of everything without being a proxy to feed Microsoft's AI
You can just use Flatpak and backported kernels?
If a common answer to some distro's problems is, "just use flatpaks bro", I'm staying away from that distro.
That's a pretty dumb way of thinking. There's value in having a predictable system with some packages rolling.
Freedom of choice is not dumb.
I don't have an issue with flatpaks as option. I have an issue If I have to rely on them heavily.
Ok? I am not sure what you're trying to contribute?
My opinion to this conversation, what else do you want from me?
Flatpak doesn't handle libraries for hardware on the computer. I.e. GPU drivers, audio, peripherals, etc.
You can technically get them on a Debian release, but at that point you're doing a lot more work and compiling than you'd have to do on something like Fedora or Arch.
You get those from backports (kernel is at 6.17.8 and mesa at 25.2.6, both fairly new). Flatpak also comes with Mesa included.
I know Flatpak comes with Mesa, but it doesn't include the latest Nvidia driver the day after it's released for example. You'd have to go through Nvidia's manual installation which is well above any beginner user's experience level.
It also doesn't affect anything that uses things like libinput or pipewire. I had to stop using Debian related distros for my desktop simply because I use drawing tablets, for example. Newer libraries support the ones I have.
Nvidia is kinda bad on Debian but you can use the CUDA repos to get the very latest. debian-nvidia-installer is quite handy for that. Pipewire has been available for a while (since 11?). But if Debian doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for you. The majority of problems related to old software for normal/common use cases can be overcome in Debian quite easily. Using something like Arch or testing isn't necessary to play Cyberpunk.
I agree with you, the problems can be overcome if you know a lot about how Linux works. New users (which is what all this is talking about) want to avoid the terminal as much as possible and to get Debian "up to date" requires much more knowledge than it does to maintain a Fedora install which wouldn't need the terminal at all.
Exactly this.
Yes, technically all my issues with gaming on Debian are fixable. But it requires a lot more effort than I care to devote just to play games.
Arch (with Omarchy because I’m a masochist) does what I need for my gaming rig, and I get all this working without having to touch backports or nvidias cuda repo directly.
But the discussion isn't about new users. Debian isn't a desktop distro that's typically recommended for new users and people who struggle with Debian because they aren't technical enough wouldn't move to Arch.
swiss army knife meaning what? those tasks are something virtually all distros can accomplish, and are things that debian in specific is arguably the worst at as having old versions of software, kernels, drivers, etc causes compatibility problems with video games or dramatically delays fixes that would make playing video games much more pleasant. it makes getting support from the actual devs of whatever application you're using much harder becuase your problems are from a literally unsupported version from a year ago, they're going to tell you to update to latest becuase they fixed it last year.
debian's fantastic if you want something you intend to leave unattended as its approach to stability means that if you're making custom scripts that rely on sepcfiic versions of software you're not going to need to change things out or update that script for a very long time, but there's much better options for a daily driver desktop. i install aurora (bazzite but without gaming stuff) for computer illiterate people as it being atomic and immutable means i can set them up to have automatic updates that they don't interact with and the system's next to impossible for them to put into a state that cannot be fixed by just rebooting it, and i think that's like 99% of what people who recommend debian blindly think they're offering people. ubuntu has more recent packages and there's plenty of downstream ubuntu distros that take advantage of that without the snap bullshit.
we don't really need to have a swiss army knife distro. there's so many distros, you can just use the correct distro for the job. i don't need to run arch on my raspberry pi sever, it's running dietpi because i don't want to interact with the thing i just want it to run home assistant and forget it even exists.
Being able to game and run windows apps can be done on basically any distro, the only real “benefit” of Debian is you don’t have to worry about upgrading frequently but there’s huge downsides to this. I really don’t understand why anyone likes Debian for desktop
Me using nearly every "I don't have Windows, but..." moment to plant the seeds towards freedom.
The problem is that anyone who gets exposed to Linux often first see a distro that has Gnome as the default DE. While I'm sure Gnome has some things it does well, it is significantly different from how Windows works and it's underlying UI rationale is not immediately clear. Anyone coming from Windows and put in front of a computer with Gnome is going to be completely lost and they are unlikely to keep at it until they figure it out
I will admit that while using Linux on servers for work for a while, common LTS distros and Gnome kept me off Linux desktop longer than I would have otherwise. I'm not a distrohopper and don't care to try half a dozen DE's, so I'd try a distro and after fiddling with it for a couple days just went back to Windows for a couple more years each time.
I know the popular image around here is someone getting interested in Linux and trying ten different distros and five kinds of window managers until they find a combo they like. But the reality is most people give a single distro one chance and unless everything works right away and it does everything they need it to do, they bounce.
Let me ask you this, if your first distro was Linux Mint would you have started using Linux sooner?
Mint was one of the ones I tried in the past. It had the issue of hardware support since it's based on Ubuntu LTS. It supported Nvidia GPUs just fine and that's one of the many things they get right. It's all the small things. Multi monitor/multi-refresh rate setups are more complex than they needed to be (once they complete the Wayland switch it'll be a non-issue) and peripheral support wasn't all there when I tried it.
I think Mint is great, but I ran into problems because of its Ubuntu-ness.
The same holds true for Neon which is the first one I tried last year when switching. It's really frustrating to spend an hour or more troubleshooting a problem only to realize it was fixed months earlier in some library. That plus an issue between the Ubuntu Nvidia PPA and Neon ended my time with that distro.
If either was on a rolling base distro I likely would've stuck with it sooner. But I was determined enough to try again. If I got to attempt 3 and failed I'd likely be back on Windows doing all the steps to try and keep it from sucking. But it became so awful I was willing to try 3 times in the first place. :)
Is free my fren
ARCHHHHHH ID GOAT !!!
I really hope a big wave hit Linux in the near future. I really need someone to fix my fans not spinning in Linux. I can't use linux and I feel really left out.
Fans not spinning in Linux sounds...quite strange. It's not an issue I've ever experienced...since somewhere around Y2K.
Are these very special fans?
It sounds strange, but unfortunately it’s very real on some newer laptops.
This isn’t a “Linux can’t spin fans” issue, it’s an EC + vendor firmware design problem. On this machine, fan control is entirely handled by the embedded controller and a proprietary Windows service. On Linux, the EC doesn’t expose any PWM or fan control interface and instead falls back to a silent, throttle-only mode.
The fans do spin in Windows (via vendor software). They just never get triggered under Linux because the EC firmware assumes Windows is managing it (I guess).
This has been popping up more on modern OEM laptops (Insyde H2O, some ASUS/MSI/clevo-based systems), especially post-2020. Strange, but sadly not unheard of anymore.
I have a post talking about this problem on other subreddits, but have gone nowhere.
Quite believable now you explain. I wonder if there are any reverse engineer subs or fora you can reach out to.
Yeah that’s probably the direction this is heading.
I’ve started doing EC dumps and comparing behavior between Windows and Linux, but I haven’t found a clean control path yet. With the fact that I've only been only trying Linux for a couple of days and is not an expert on hardware/firmware, this sucks.
If you know any reverse engineering focused subs or forums that deal with laptop EC/ACPI quirks, I’d really appreciate pointers.
If you're amenable to using IRC, I've found some of the nerdiest nerds there. Probably someone can point you in the right direction.
Libera.chat is the largest network for open source support.
You can ask in the channel of your distro, in #hardware, in #Linux
The best part is if you find someone with knowledge, the interaction is real time. Good hunting! I'm hoping you find a solution!
Laptop or desktop?
Laptop: Axioo Pongo 760 V2.
Fans behave normally on Windows, but on Linux they don’t spin even under sustained load / high temps. I have a more detailed troubleshooting post about this in r/fedora if you want the full context (It's quite detailed, I really want to fix it).
Well, the unfortunate reality is that Linux just doesn't support laptops as well as desktops on account of them using a lot more bespoke hardware with help Linux drivers. Don't be surprised if you never end up being able to fix it. I hope you can though.
I don't like Windows, at all, but I'd argue no platform dominating and an abundance of choice would be best for everyone.
Being an avid Linux, UNIX, windows and RISCOS user with a hankering for BSD to become more mainstream I hope Linux doesn't dominate as I can see what ever takes over from windows will become the primary target for hackers etc.
As soon as you bring corporate IT into the picture they'll fuck that shit out of existence to the point where you won't be able to recognize it anymore with all the "mandatory" corpo BS they'll put on it.
Windows is just part of the problem and that's because it's a another spawn of the corporate world which is all about control.
You won't be able to use your favorite Linux distros at work. You'll have mandatory Oracle Linux BS that'll be as shitty as the custom Windows OEMs they install now-a-days, if not worse.
And the same will go for governments because they like to delegate that stuff out to contractors like Oracle & co who will push their own corpo BS into the government space.
No. Nothing will change if everyone starts using Linux. The Linux kernel will just be stained by more precompiled proprietary binary blobs which will be required to run all the corpo BS.
Make no mistake. Linux is as cool as it is today because it stayed outside of the mainstream area. The more popular it becomes the more shitty it will get because the more corporations will push to change it to their liking.
I understand what you're saying, but how do you reconcile this with the fact that the Linux foundation already gets a lot of money from corporations? Shouldn't we already see this in current desktop Linux if there is already so much corporate influence?
The influence that corpos have had on Linux so far has been limited to implementing server architecture code which is required for their cloud businesses and not the regular user space.
The Linux kernel already has a shit ton of binary blobs required for hardware drivers. This will only get worse if Linux's popularity increases as it will start touching on things like kernel level anti-cheat for games (which is notoriously bad for security) and other shit like that.
Interesting. I think you might be right, but it probably wouldn't be to the extent of trying to incorporate binary blobs for anti-cheat software in the kernel.
Though, the sentiment of the project could change if a large influx of Windows users came expecting kernel level anti-cheat to work, so in that case It could happen, not sure.
Even the windows users. It would push Microsoft to actually make their OS better instead of the opposite, which is the current norm.
It goes counter to the essence of Linux to seek domination. Linux is about freedom, not domination. A wider voluntary adoption of Linux and other free alternatives would benefit everyone.
Steam deck showed me that using linux is actually amazing ($and free$). last straw was when windows started lagging out of nowhere ofc not because of vibe shitting and so. so i just got new hdd and switched to arch btw™️! a bit of tinkering, glueing, a bit of wd-40, and i have a working, beautiful, MINE operating system that i can do anything with. that is a nice breath of fresh air after 5 years of fart, where i couldnt even remove recommendations on windows tab entirely (without the PLUGINS), that i feel amazing just using it. also yeah, I use arch btw.
With Debian it would.....
So long as it remains OSS
Won't someone think of the defenseless mega corps and their investors?
It's 2025. Times when you had to use one and only OS that some company has created so you can use it if you pay for it are long gone. Especially with AI getting better at coding. This model will just get obsoleted
I'm a debian bitch forever
Linux on the Desktop - like Windows on Servers - is not exactly the best use of a particular tool...
Save-for ChromeOS - which yes, you are going to say 'Isn't real Linux'..... And SteamOS, which isn't really for 'desktop PCs'....
I don't know about anyone else but to me debian seems to be the only way to get a workable computer
More like "debian is the only distro i've tried"
Press x for doubt
This might be one of the ugliest pictures i've ever laid my eyes upon..
True
Comment section with combined donation to upstream of 5 dollars day dreaming about Corporate Influence to Free Software Development while glazing the system that allowed shitty corpo to enshittificated the technology and hoping for 123242345 times that it will be good for the "competition" that eventually become Monopoly, but let's not guess to far, it's not like Monopoly ever happened in our beloved world running the beloved system that allow me to live on 13 dallers per hours and one ambulance call away from bankruptcy because of robust competition among Employers and Insurance Company.
Except me.
Debian ❤️
No, it won't
Agree so can we please think about and work on what's holding up society to make this transition? Example: * Why isn't Linux used on school computers? * How to make states change digital policy to use a KDE Linux & LibreOffice & open source EU cloud where they can? * Why are many consumers not using Linux and what can be done about these problems? Examples: difficulties with gaming, difficulties with installing due to e.g. disk drive requirements, no Linux preinstalled on hardware to buy, etc.
its already nice that u r talking about unix like system to conquer the market, great.
but u bring riscv in the conversation even great
👍 nice.
windows is not a threat anymore. works will know day by day
the issue is open architecture doesn't exist in practice. i mean cpu architecture
arm and x86 is dominating. its bad
but i have mixed feelings about them.
anything related to risc(also arm) is not that backward compatible
x86 has edge on this point
They are already locked on Windows and it's not easy to change the world overnight
Linux will probably never "dominate".
Former government employee here.
Imagine my surprise and shock when I realized that classified environments run Windows just like everything else.
Optimization and customization should be standard. It blows my mind that government leaders do not realize this.
Why wouldn’t classified environments run windows?
I think the biggest question is why would they, considering all the backdoors and vulnerabilities.
Same reason every other large organization uses windows, it’s in a league of its own when it comes to enterprise management. But also windows is quite secure and if it’s the US government they don’t have to worry about backdoors
Edit: Why do people reply to me and then block me? I don't get it
Thats the thing. The governments in question are usually not just the US.
Not Debian version. Pass, not thanks. I think I would go something like arch, once steam is actually taken advantage of in it and devs stop chickening out on optimizing for Linux not just windows.
I posted something similar earlier this morning on another Linux sub.
It's a tool. Use the right tool for the right job. I use Mac, Windows and Linux all day every day.
Linux IS EVERYWHERE. Servers, Super Computers, IoT, appliances, my freaking toaster.
Yes, there would be plenty of benefits if Linux was able to become the dominant operating system.
That's a big qualifier though, it can be easy to be lost in this idea that "everyone can use Linux" because it sounds good, but it is not true.
Yes, everyone can or could use Linux, in that they are capable of learning how to use it, but that doesn't make it practical. The average person does not even know how Windows works or how to change Windows, some think that Windows is a part of their computer.
They don't know what a "package manager" is or what "swap" means or what a terminal is meant to do, at best they know to open task manager and see if the numbers are close to 100% to see usage. And they don't need to know this either, Windows will just update everything for them and set defaults.
Forget about understanding the operating system, so many people do not even understand how to navigate the web browser or how to forward an email after gmail changes the location of a few buttons.
They do not know how to stop the operating system from giving them pop-ups about AI, or that you can press in certain places on the web browser to exit dialogs, or anything else you may assume is "common knowledge" from your own use.
So many things that you and I take for granted are not automatic actions for many people, you will notice if you help someone with their computer that they don't know what to actually do.
And no, it isn't just "old people" who don't know any better, I had people (multiple times) in my computer science degree ask if I was "hacking" because I opened the terminal and updated using apt. I still cannot get over this.
The only way this changes is if people are exposed to Linux when they start to learn about computers. If your school computers are using Linux then you will probably learn pretty quickly how to use Linux, but right now they almost always will run Windows because it's simpler. Even then, will people opt to use Linux at home if they need to learn how the terminal works and everything else you might need to know? Maybe, but what about when it breaks because they tried to install something incorrectly or changed a file that you shouldn't change?
Alternatively, you could provide some necessity for people to learn how to use Linux, but that seems quite impossible given that it currently seems to be the other way around for many people's workflows. Sure, programming is one case where Linux shines, but you aren't getting 50% market share from programmers.
Anyways, sorry to be a downer.
I think that requiring Linux users to actually learn how to operate and maintain their own systems is a good thing. In fact, I think maintaining that learning curve is much better than pushing for 50% market share or whatever.
I also don't see how this point contradicts the OP at all.
We don't necessarily need a world where the Linux market share is extremely high. I'd argue that we're doing just fine with the current setup, where Linux exists as a viable and attractive alternative provided that you're willing to spend a bit of time learning how your computer actually works.
Those who can't be bothered can continue to use Microsoft's bloated AI garbage. But it would still be far better for them to learn a few things and make the switch.
I agree, most people who use Linux should learn how to operate and maintain their own system, it is better than trying to go for over 50% market share, and it is currently fine as it is, etc.
But, Linux "domination" doesn't fit within any of this. If we imagined a world where desktop Linux was the prevalent choice, most users would not fall into the technically inclined category.
My point is that Linux as is cannot achieve this, not necessarily that it needs to be changed to do so, I rather like where we are.