How do you feed billions of people? Pure vegetarian diet would assrape the global ecosystem even harder. And veganism is even worse. Restricting our diet would place disproportionate strain on whatever part of the environment we still use.
Pure vegetarian diet would assrape the global ecosystem even harder
This is an interesting topic, one that will never be solved because meat and animal products are fully ingrained in society (and what we evolved to eat). But I don’t think the ecosystem would necessarily be the victim here.
Cows and pigs (the 2 main livestock animals in my country anyway) take an absurd amount of land to produce. Mainly the acreage of row crops grown to feed them but also the rangeland/pastures and non-grazed hay fields.
Some of the articles I’ve ready say that going to a vegan or vegetarian diet would greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions, reduce the required agricultural acreage by 3/4ths, and we’d still have enough land suitable for vegetable and grain production to feed the worlds population. Source 1Source 2.
Just in theory, if we could eliminate all the land needed to house/graze animals and the land needed to grow food for them we would be able to return a significant portion of that to wild prairie, wetlands, or forests which would help the ecosystem with native plant and animal habitat and less monoculture in general. The concept is sound that a lot of the logistic losses that come with animal agriculture could be eliminated (studies have shown that certain protein crops require far less land, water, fuel, and chemicals to produce equivalent amounts of protein).
All that being said, I don’t think that it’s going to ever happen and I think there are plenty of ways to make agriculture less harmful to the environment without eliminating livestock. I do think that if we completely eliminated livestock and made good use of the land used by livestock, it wouldn’t “assrape” the ecosystem. Even if we replaced animal protein completely with monoculture protein crops it would drastically reduce the total land used and we could mitigate the effects by making diverse, eco-friendly use of the land we gained back.
Ok so are we starving people for some beast to live better lives or do you have a substantial substitute to support the current population keep eco systems and things like over hunting and overfishing in mind too
Quite the opposite: Abolishing animal agriculture would mean we can feed MORE people. We feed grain to animals that we could just eat ourselves - 100 calories of grain produce about 3 calories of beef. That's hella inefficient so it would be better to just not do that.
Fishing could just stop altogether. Hunting is a bit more complex, but could also be reduced by a large margin.
Mind you, I'm not suggesting to make this change overnight, it's a process. But it's both very doable and very necessary.
You must be having trouble understanding the point being made.
You were trying to say that steak is delicious, therefore it's okay to kill and eat animals. The animals don't have a say in this. You are forcing the killing of them against their will so that you can feel pleasure from the taste of their meat.
I was trying to say (in a mocking way) that sex feels great, therefore it's okay to force sex on people or animals. The people or animals don't have a say in this. I am forcing sex (considered rape) upon them against their will so that I can feel pleasure from said sex.
The entire point is to show you how illogical your post was. Do you understand this now that I've broken it down for you?
Unfortunately, there would be mass slaughter/abandonment/extinction of these animals if these industries stopped. They definitely need reform and aren't perfect, but we need food. If only there wasn't such a stupid stigma against lab grown meat.
The idea isn't to stop the meat industry overnight, that's unrealistic for a plethora of reasons. But we do need to transition away from meat and dairy, in a nutshell: it's just a super inefficient food source (animal fodder soy is the cause of rainforest deforestation), it's a climate killer, and it's just plain barbaric what we do to these animals.
Again, the industry's not going to stop overnight - for an individual, eating less meat and dairy is the easiest way to help with this issue, plus a plant based diet is generally healthier. Politics can also help by stopping the mind boggling subsidies for the animal industry, for starters.
About five years ago, our youngest child went vegetarian when he went away to college. After hearing his arguments for it, my wife and I made a commitment to also eat less meat. We started with one vegetarian day a week. Now, five years later, we're up to 3-4 days a week, meat-free. But we sure love our steaks, pork cooked on the smoker, salmon, and what-not. I'm not sure we'll ever completely give it up altogether, but we have reduced our meat consumption in half. And that's an improvement.
The healthiest diet is generally considered to ones similar to the Mediterranean diet. Still having some meat and animal products, but emphasizing vegetables. I'm an athlete, so animal products are the cheapest way for me to meet my nutrition requirements. Meeting the same thresholds with a vegan/vegetarian diet would be too expensive for me and require extensive supplementation (of which a lot of supplements also have animal products).
I'm all for better treatment of farm animals and better regulations (I hope lab grown meat makes huge advances), but we just aren't there yet and not everyone can do vegan or vegetarian. There would also be the complications of feeding pets without animal products. We also have the question of what happens to all of these farm animals if they are no longer needed.
Just letting you know, the study doesn’t say first world. First world just meant in opposition to the communist second world and the unaligned third world. The study specifies high-income countries, which today includes examples of past first, second and third world countries. For instance, Spain, currently one of the largest in nominal GDP, was third world, since it was neither democratic nor communist and stayed out of the World Wars and Cold War.
Uh, I think if referencing a study, we should stick to the criteria used in said study instead of changing it to be colloquial. There was no need to change it, you already had the sentence from the study to support your point and everyone would understand it just fine.
I am an MMA fighter and it would cost me an insane amount of money to meet my nutrition requirements with a vegan/vegetarian diet. Not to mention it would negatively affect my performance and make my weight cuts more difficult in some circumstances. Tuna is cheap and nutritious. But don't forget my diet is more vegetables/fruits/carbs than meat. The meat and seafood are the cheapest ways to my collagen, protein, and B12 needs.
I love how people just down vote because they don’t like reality. It is factually true that in the US, lentils, beans, and nuts, are much cheaper to buy than meat, for the same protein amount.
Yeah, it's just the discomfort they feel as they are forced to consider the disconnect between their morals and actions. They react with hostility because that gives them something to focus on instead of their cognitive dissonance
Challenge your assumptions. You may be caring about the non-sentient idea of a ”species” because that way you don’t have to care about the individuals within. They do not serve any ecosystem niche if you care about that. The chicken species you suggest keeping around suffer every day because they outgrow their own bone structure. It’s a matter of learning and understanding why we think the things we do.
I think most people who are vegan or support farm animal rights are fine with them all going extinct. Extinction is not the same thing when the species is domestic with no ability to survive independently in its native ecosystem. What would be more likely is that cows, chickens etc would wind up companion animals. This is all utopian however. We can probably assume people will watch the world burn (and are) before giving up their beloved meat.
these farm animals will probably face extinction if we no longer need them
Why is that a bad thing? These animals going extinct would open up the environment for many more species that are struggling due to animal agriculture. Cows, sheep, chickens, etc, don't care about the concept of extinction. They only care they they're not suffering at the moment, and a lot of them have been genetically engineered to suffer.
We would have more food available if we didn't farm animals, because the majority of crops are grown to feed them. It's incredibly inefficient mass and energy transfer. Farm animals should go extinct, they should be cared for until they die of natural causes as they are not natural species that can survive in the wild.
And that's fine, you can eat meat when lab growing happens. There will be a bigger push for it the more people boycott meat on behalf of its ethics and environmental harm.
They have one. I don't know the name for it, but they essentially super freeze the thing. Not nearly as painful, and only shows up as white fur in place of scarring.
Yeah, it’s certainly problematic if adults think hurting your own kids when there is no medical need is ok. Millions are around whose parents didn’t do that to them and live just fine. I’d say it’s worse if you believe in a creator. If you were born in the creator’s image, it should be considered disrespectful to alter it unnecessarily. Heck even in classical Confucianism which lacks a creator, it is considered disrespectful to your parents to alter the body from its natural state using tools.
Doesn’t matter who does it. Adults should not be able to harm kids’ bodies if there is no proven medical purpose for it. Until we as a species agree on at least that, it’s a double standard.
Fair but it’s still about the principle of doing piercings and other modifications to beings that cannot consent to it, just because you think it’s your right as an adult human. At least with cattle, there are legally mandated and pragmatic reasons. Meanwhile no secular law or medical journal supports doing it to babies. If so many folks can justify it regardless, then you can hardly expect them to see why it shouldn’t be done to other animals.
I don’t doubt it, but that wording can be repurposed too.
“I have a feeling the affected babies care little about made-up adult reasons as to why they’re being hurt”.
I prefer we go back to some form of indigenous thinking, be it Native American or even Ainu, where logic applied to human children is held the same across other species as well. If you think it’s wrong to do modifications on those that can’t consent, then it’s just wrong wholesale. Mind you, this isn’t just about tagging cows. Declawing cats, defanging snakes, docking dog tail/ears, clipping flight feathers, all are harm done for convenience which might not interfere with said creature still living a full life, but are still done with the animals not understanding why.
Nah, there are a bunch of people who are starting to realize it's fucked to put a baby through that. Just cause you and so many others are still behind on ethical matters and still practice putting body modifications on a baby without consent doesn't mean it's an ok thing to do.
It's so they can be identified and therefore easily found if they wander off, are stolen, flee in a panic from predators, etc. and for tracking their relationships to other animals and who is the current owner. They can't exactly carry an ID or a birth certificate around. It's as painful as an ear piercing for a couple seconds and then it's over and they can go about their day.
My 5 yr old son is asking to get his ears pierced. I'm inclined to let him, but his mom thinks he should wait til 6.
I'm going to let her have the deciding vote on this, because I have massive 1 1/8" ear lobes, so clearly I am not the person who makes responsible decisions wrt piercings.
Yeah, but this isn’t a 2 to 3 year-old child equivalent. This is equivalent to a woman giving birth, and someone immediately ripping the baby out out of her arms, taking it and piercing its ears. It’s weird and the mom would be distraught. That baby is literally covered with after birth.
Make whatever assumption you want, your baby analogy is stupid as fuck. I don't gotta prove myself to you or any other self righteous vegan lmao. Yes, the industry is fucked, every industry is. I'm not going to defend it but I'm not gonna just cut meat out.
Not trying to get you to cut out meat. Trying to get you to be honest with yourself and what you say.
Want to point out why the analogy is stupid as fuck? I literally just replaced the subject of your statement and nothing else. And now, all of the sudden, you don't like it.
It's a moment of pain which the animal will get over in a day ir two which helps keep it safe in the long run by making it easier to keep track of, allowing the farmer to let it roam a larger area and have a better quality of life because he can easily track it should it go missing, it also allows the farmer to limit the spread of disease abd keep track of its medical history easier as it grows up. .
It's like taking your baby to get vaccinated, it hurts for a brief few moments but your baby doesn't even remember it and it can save its life.
But hey, I get it, redditors wouldn't be redditors if they weren't outraged about every single post they see.
Protein is pretty necessary to a healthy and balanced diet but okay, and you don't even know if these are for slaughter, or for milk.
And even if they were for slaughter, beef products are used for more than just food. Go ask a diabetic if they think insulin is necessary, because cows are a part of making some insulins (not all, but not every insulin works for every diabetic) as well as a whole range of other medical products.
I get it, you personally don't like to eat meat, that's fine. But there's nothing immoral about open range cattle farming which the tags allow.
Now, closed cage cattle farming is different and yes, that's disgusting and cruel. But that's not what this is.
"my house slaves are treated better than those plantation ones" - that's you
Also, protein does not require killing someone, who knew? And you're right. Idk if these cows are going to be slaughtered or raped for years and THEN slaughtered. Big difference.
As for the medical products, we get them (mostly) from animals because their bodies and body parts are so freely available. There are other ways to source insulin and most other animal derived products, but whatever you have to tell yourself
Holy shit... Comparing animal farming to real slavery is ridiculous. Stop trying to hunanise animals, it's weird, they aren't humans, they are cattle now because they were prey before, just like nearly everything in the animal kingdom is either predator or prey to something else and while animals aren't humans, humans are in fact just very evolved animals and natural predators at that.
Yes, good quality protein does require killing good quality sources of protein which are animals, not "someone", proteins are literally essential for healthy humans to grow, develop and sustain.
No, we get a lot of medicine from animal products because those animals offer things which are important to those medical products. It's not just a random shot in the barrel any old animal will do for any random medicine.
There is more than 1 kind of insulin, most of it doesn't need cows, some of it does. Some people need that kind.
Maybe, hopefully, in 100 years humans will have fully figured out and developed ways to sustain an entire population without animal products and without health set backs but that's not the case right now.
Even you at the moment as a vegan or vegetarian will be relying on animal products to function without even knowing it regardless of whatever cause you think you're on board with.
This is exactly my point of view. I was raised by a vegan and vegetarian person, so I am aware of the health benefits, and the health drawbacks.
What I don't think a lot of vegans realize is that their short term arguments are really bad for their long-term success.
Veganism, or ovo-lacto vegetarianism, are concepts that run completely opposed to what most human beings have been used to for hundreds, if not, thousands of years
Change is hard, is going to take a very long time, and is going to require a great deal of understanding.
Too many radical vegans forget that empathy isn't just for animals...
Bravo, friend! It’s precisely that factor which makes people become antagonistic to anyone loudly telling them to stop. When I was vegan, I informed people politely and they acknowledged it and at least for a time subconsciously wondered if they were eating more animal based products than they need for their health. It doesn’t work when you demonize.
Careful though. You might get cancelled on some vegan subs for statements like yours. >_> I love Reddit, but stopping radical echo chambers or at least keeping radicals away from regular folk is not its strong suit.
What are the health drawbacks? (With a peer reviewed source, not a trust-me-bro argument)
I can link plenty giving the health benefits.
But also, like omnivore diet, there are healthy ways of doing it and unhealthy ways. Veganism is not a diet or about food. Its about not harming animals for pleasure. I am empathetic to why people abuse animals (as someone who did it for most of my life), but im not empathetic to people who use bad logic and justifications to bullshit themselves into thinking its okay for them to do. There are 2 options. Animals deserve moral consideration, or they are products/items to use. Anything in the middle is hypocritical and nonsensical.
Yes, good quality protein does require killing good quality sources of protein which are animals, not "someone", proteins are literally essential for healthy humans to grow, develop and sustain.
Completely incorrect. Protein is not just found in animals. It's found in all sorts of foods. There are a plethora of body builders who are vegan and are able to source their protein just fine. This is the most misconstrued argument against plant-based diets.
Stop trying to hunanise animals, it's weird, they aren't humans,
You don't need to humanise animals to understand they have emotions, can feel pain, and can experience trauma, fear, and suffering.
just like nearly everything in the animal kingdom is either predator or prey to something else and while animals aren't humans, humans are in fact just very evolved animals and natural predators at that.
Those animals HAVE to eat their prey to survive. Some humans have to do the same. Plenty of humans do not, especially those in economically advanced areas.
Even you at the moment as a vegan or vegetarian will be relying on animal products to function without even knowing it regardless of whatever cause you think you're on board with.
This is another false flag argument. Veganism isn't about the complete eradication or animal suffering. It's about realistically minimizing the harm done to other animals through your own actions. Sometimes, animals testing may be required for life saving medications and the like. It sucks, but it is what it is.
humans are in fact just very evolved animals and natural predators at that.
Another fallacy, appealing to nature. Humans used to quite often rape and claim women for reproduction. Should we continue that practice? Who humans were does necessitate who humans can be or are today.
You don't. Horses are very much like dogs, they have the capacity to be extremely intelligent, loyal, and perceptive. (as animals with prey instincts they can also be extremely skittish and big ol scaredy cats) But just like a good dog will sense danger and instinctually protect their family, so will a good horse. There are countless stories throughout history
Makes me think if there were evil horses influenced by their jockeys. Like a Mongolian or Medieval horse who loves to trample and murder out of loyalty
Oh without a doubt! There are many historical accounts of horses like that too. I have personally met some uniquely vicious horses and it always made me weary of their rider. Of course, sometimes animals have trauma or learned behavior, if it's domesticated more often than not a human was involved at some point, but sometimes a horse is just a mean SOB.
This comment was the one I was looking for. I'm chronically online and have seen this vid at least 4 times but it's a (personal phrasing) keystone textbook example of many possible animal intelligence.
Its a cattle horse breed. They are known for cutting too. Cutting is when the horse (with a rider)seperates a single cow from a herd. This useful trait is something thats anchored in the horses instincts simimiar to cattle dogs or border collies. When this act is performed you usually see the rider lean back on the horse because the horse will lower their head and front feet. On a good horse the rider doesnt need to interfere with the rains the horse will do the cutting. If you look at it you will notice the rains are never pulled short during this process.
There is always a better way to do anything if you are willing to put the work into it. I’m not vegan, I wont be turning vegan ever, but this treatment of animals is cruel. These animals feed us, the least we can do is give them a good life before we eat them. If it is necessary to tag these creatures we can do it in a much more humane way that won’t distress the mother or the baby. Less stress makes the meat taste better too.
Cheap, easy and cruel is not best, put the work into making things good. Don’t be a lazy cruel fuck.
Unfortunately, it’s actually law to tag cattle, as it’s vital not only to handle theft, but disease control too. Many bad things happened before the laws got to this point, and it phased out the need to brand them.
It doesn’t matter what you use the cattle for. Even ones you intend to keep as pets for life, need to be tagged in most jurisdictions.
So while it might be sad if they slaughter the cattle in the video, the need to tag is a separate matter.
None of this is necessary. It only happens because animal abusers can't be bothered to eat some damn plants. Animal agriculture would not exist if people had more integrity. Sanctuary animals would not exist because none of them would need to be saved. No one would have their children ripped away and numbered like a slave. So again, fuck animal abusers. They are the cause of this.
There is no "need". It is a decision. Decisions are made to breed the cattle, to brand/tag the cattle, to kill the cattle. We all can decide not to participate. I did, in 1986, and what do you know? I haven't died of starvation or protein deficiency!
Again, it doesn’t matter what you use the cattle for. You can neuter one and keep it in a sanctuary, but they’ll still be required to tag it. I agree we have too many cattle on earth right now in order to meet ever increasing demand, but outright wiping them out isn’t the solution either. We have heritage breeds that have rich histories behind them. Tags help keep them and ourselves safe. There might be other solutions in the future, but right now most developed countries have chosen this.
Btw, if you mean you’ve adopted sustainable veganism, I congratulate you on that. :) I too had zero issue acquiring protein on a vegan diet. Getting all the right vitamins wasn’t hard either since I loved fermented foods. Though admittedly, fermented foods are forbidden under a Jain diet so I wouldn’t adapt as well to the latter. Anyone who can thrive on a pure Jain diet/lifestyle deserves the highest respect.
However, it’s simply not practical at this juncture to tell the human race as a whole to stop the animal husbandry industry. Lab grown meat is one solution vegans are also pushing for as an alternative but it too is not flawless. Even in Europe, insects as an alternative protein are increasing, which require far less land and resources, but that too is exploitation and so contrary to veganism.
Still, if any measure can reduce overall animal deaths per year, it’s still a win in my book.
I get what point you were trying to make but, the context is different. The “we all” wouldn’t apply to the last few thousand years in Asia for example, where Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Animism, etc heavily normalised vegetarian diet for millions. Vegetarianism is aligned with holiness even in Abrahamic religions, where Lent traditionally involved vegetarian diet too. If you mean in the ancient era, then we are talking about “need”, where we didn’t have the scale of production or infrastructure to depend on plant-based food alone. You are right there, but the other person must also agree there was a time when it was need and meant life and death to many groups especially during famine when most plant based sources would perish while preserved meats and cheeses would last.
Today though, the numbers are through the roof and cannot be compared to just the last century prior to factory farming was invented. We now consume far more animal-based foods than we ever did across cultures, whereas in the past only a select few who grew in harsh conditions had a “need” to depend on animals, like in the Arctic tundra, the high mountains, remote islands, the deserts and such. The idea that folk living in the heart of cities “need” this much meat in their diet is a new phenomenon developed through globalization rather than a traditional part of most of our cultures. I can assure you your great great grandfather ate a lot less meat in an average week than the average person does today and if he did eat more, he was in the minority even in his country.
Why? Could I assume you don't eat meat and you're offended by people who do? I respect your choices, I'm just curious where your anger comes from. The ranchers I have known love and appreciate the land and the animals they raise in relative safety and comfort, far more than the average person going to the market for food they didn't raise and nurture themselves.
Factory farms are different. But ranchers are typically not corporate factories.
Some animals can only eat other animals, some plants eat animals, some animals eat plants, and some animals eat both. I'd love to hear your opinions on alternatives, because there is definitely a discussion there on ethics, efficiency, and resource management.
I'd be pissed too if someone was punching holes into my baby's ears. Animal agriculture sucks.
It's better than when they burn numbers into the skin.. If you come up with a greater idea then you should definitely propose it to them.
There was a better idea in the comment:
We don't have to raise animals for slaughtering them. It's perfectly easy to just not do that.
Mind you, it’s not just slaughtering. Same applies to the dairy industry.
absolutely agree with you, but I didn't wanna scare off the vegetarians
This got me
Won't someone think of the veal industry!!!
No it’s not, don’t be ridiculous. This is a nothing answer
yeah people are like "if all just stopped having desires we could all live at peace in the stone age"
eating meat is a privilege people would fight for
How do you feed billions of people? Pure vegetarian diet would assrape the global ecosystem even harder. And veganism is even worse. Restricting our diet would place disproportionate strain on whatever part of the environment we still use.
This is an interesting topic, one that will never be solved because meat and animal products are fully ingrained in society (and what we evolved to eat). But I don’t think the ecosystem would necessarily be the victim here.
Cows and pigs (the 2 main livestock animals in my country anyway) take an absurd amount of land to produce. Mainly the acreage of row crops grown to feed them but also the rangeland/pastures and non-grazed hay fields.
Some of the articles I’ve ready say that going to a vegan or vegetarian diet would greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions, reduce the required agricultural acreage by 3/4ths, and we’d still have enough land suitable for vegetable and grain production to feed the worlds population. Source 1 Source 2.
Just in theory, if we could eliminate all the land needed to house/graze animals and the land needed to grow food for them we would be able to return a significant portion of that to wild prairie, wetlands, or forests which would help the ecosystem with native plant and animal habitat and less monoculture in general. The concept is sound that a lot of the logistic losses that come with animal agriculture could be eliminated (studies have shown that certain protein crops require far less land, water, fuel, and chemicals to produce equivalent amounts of protein).
All that being said, I don’t think that it’s going to ever happen and I think there are plenty of ways to make agriculture less harmful to the environment without eliminating livestock. I do think that if we completely eliminated livestock and made good use of the land used by livestock, it wouldn’t “assrape” the ecosystem. Even if we replaced animal protein completely with monoculture protein crops it would drastically reduce the total land used and we could mitigate the effects by making diverse, eco-friendly use of the land we gained back.
Microscopic fungi, brand name quorn
This is so confidently wrong.
Ok so are we starving people for some beast to live better lives or do you have a substantial substitute to support the current population keep eco systems and things like over hunting and overfishing in mind too
Quite the opposite: Abolishing animal agriculture would mean we can feed MORE people. We feed grain to animals that we could just eat ourselves - 100 calories of grain produce about 3 calories of beef. That's hella inefficient so it would be better to just not do that.
Fishing could just stop altogether. Hunting is a bit more complex, but could also be reduced by a large margin.
Mind you, I'm not suggesting to make this change overnight, it's a process. But it's both very doable and very necessary.
How much land area would we have to take up to plant enough grain to feed ourselves directly?
Less than we currently need to feed animals. That's not just me spitballing, you can look it up.
Currently we grow the grain to feed animals which we then eat.
Steak is delicious tho.
Sex feels great. Doesn't mean I can just force it on people or animals.
Are... Are you equating rape to animal agriculture? The suffering of human beings being compared to cattle? Is that what we are doing?
You must be having trouble understanding the point being made.
You were trying to say that steak is delicious, therefore it's okay to kill and eat animals. The animals don't have a say in this. You are forcing the killing of them against their will so that you can feel pleasure from the taste of their meat.
I was trying to say (in a mocking way) that sex feels great, therefore it's okay to force sex on people or animals. The people or animals don't have a say in this. I am forcing sex (considered rape) upon them against their will so that I can feel pleasure from said sex.
The entire point is to show you how illogical your post was. Do you understand this now that I've broken it down for you?
Exactly
Unfortunately, there would be mass slaughter/abandonment/extinction of these animals if these industries stopped. They definitely need reform and aren't perfect, but we need food. If only there wasn't such a stupid stigma against lab grown meat.
The idea isn't to stop the meat industry overnight, that's unrealistic for a plethora of reasons. But we do need to transition away from meat and dairy, in a nutshell: it's just a super inefficient food source (animal fodder soy is the cause of rainforest deforestation), it's a climate killer, and it's just plain barbaric what we do to these animals.
Again, the industry's not going to stop overnight - for an individual, eating less meat and dairy is the easiest way to help with this issue, plus a plant based diet is generally healthier. Politics can also help by stopping the mind boggling subsidies for the animal industry, for starters.
About five years ago, our youngest child went vegetarian when he went away to college. After hearing his arguments for it, my wife and I made a commitment to also eat less meat. We started with one vegetarian day a week. Now, five years later, we're up to 3-4 days a week, meat-free. But we sure love our steaks, pork cooked on the smoker, salmon, and what-not. I'm not sure we'll ever completely give it up altogether, but we have reduced our meat consumption in half. And that's an improvement.
The healthiest diet is generally considered to ones similar to the Mediterranean diet. Still having some meat and animal products, but emphasizing vegetables. I'm an athlete, so animal products are the cheapest way for me to meet my nutrition requirements. Meeting the same thresholds with a vegan/vegetarian diet would be too expensive for me and require extensive supplementation (of which a lot of supplements also have animal products).
I'm all for better treatment of farm animals and better regulations (I hope lab grown meat makes huge advances), but we just aren't there yet and not everyone can do vegan or vegetarian. There would also be the complications of feeding pets without animal products. We also have the question of what happens to all of these farm animals if they are no longer needed.
If you're in a first world country, the cost of a plant-based diet is 22-34% less expensive than an animal-based diet.
You are self-soothing to try and quell the discomfort you feel that your actions don't align with your morals.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext
Just letting you know, the study doesn’t say first world. First world just meant in opposition to the communist second world and the unaligned third world. The study specifies high-income countries, which today includes examples of past first, second and third world countries. For instance, Spain, currently one of the largest in nominal GDP, was third world, since it was neither democratic nor communist and stayed out of the World Wars and Cold War.
Today, on "Redditors hate colloquialisms":
Uh, I think if referencing a study, we should stick to the criteria used in said study instead of changing it to be colloquial. There was no need to change it, you already had the sentence from the study to support your point and everyone would understand it just fine.
I am an MMA fighter and it would cost me an insane amount of money to meet my nutrition requirements with a vegan/vegetarian diet. Not to mention it would negatively affect my performance and make my weight cuts more difficult in some circumstances. Tuna is cheap and nutritious. But don't forget my diet is more vegetables/fruits/carbs than meat. The meat and seafood are the cheapest ways to my collagen, protein, and B12 needs.
Youe "peer reviewed" literature doesn't change my reality. I base my diet around what my body needs for what I do at the prices I can afford.
I love how people just down vote because they don’t like reality. It is factually true that in the US, lentils, beans, and nuts, are much cheaper to buy than meat, for the same protein amount.
Yeah, it's just the discomfort they feel as they are forced to consider the disconnect between their morals and actions. They react with hostility because that gives them something to focus on instead of their cognitive dissonance
There's mass slaughter anyway.
We have enough food. In fact if we just eat the food we grow to feed these animals, we'd have more food than we do now.
My hope is that lab grown meat takes off. Unfortunately these farm animals will probably face extinction if we no longer need them.
Challenge your assumptions. You may be caring about the non-sentient idea of a ”species” because that way you don’t have to care about the individuals within. They do not serve any ecosystem niche if you care about that. The chicken species you suggest keeping around suffer every day because they outgrow their own bone structure. It’s a matter of learning and understanding why we think the things we do.
They wont go extinct, theyll continue to be kept in small numbers as pets instead of suffering by the billions.
Note that 57% of all mammal biomass is livestock. Wild mammals make up about 4%, and the rest is humans.
Domesticated breeds aren't species. The auroch is already extinct.
I think most people who are vegan or support farm animal rights are fine with them all going extinct. Extinction is not the same thing when the species is domestic with no ability to survive independently in its native ecosystem. What would be more likely is that cows, chickens etc would wind up companion animals. This is all utopian however. We can probably assume people will watch the world burn (and are) before giving up their beloved meat.
Why is that a bad thing? These animals going extinct would open up the environment for many more species that are struggling due to animal agriculture. Cows, sheep, chickens, etc, don't care about the concept of extinction. They only care they they're not suffering at the moment, and a lot of them have been genetically engineered to suffer.
Yes 100%
We would have more food available if we didn't farm animals, because the majority of crops are grown to feed them. It's incredibly inefficient mass and energy transfer. Farm animals should go extinct, they should be cared for until they die of natural causes as they are not natural species that can survive in the wild.
That's completely fair, I'd still like to eat meat however, so hoping for lab grown
And that's fine, you can eat meat when lab growing happens. There will be a bigger push for it the more people boycott meat on behalf of its ethics and environmental harm.
I mean being punched is better than being hit with a baseball bat but I'd rather neither be done to me
microchips like dogs
They have one. I don't know the name for it, but they essentially super freeze the thing. Not nearly as painful, and only shows up as white fur in place of scarring.
Being vegan. Otherwise you can hunt for your meat.
We literally deem it ethical enough to do to our own babies
Our practices aren’t automatically ethical.
No they aren't. But if loving parents do that to their kids then there is no way I'm criticizing cattle farmers over it.
Yeah, it’s certainly problematic if adults think hurting your own kids when there is no medical need is ok. Millions are around whose parents didn’t do that to them and live just fine. I’d say it’s worse if you believe in a creator. If you were born in the creator’s image, it should be considered disrespectful to alter it unnecessarily. Heck even in classical Confucianism which lacks a creator, it is considered disrespectful to your parents to alter the body from its natural state using tools.
Well, imaging loving parents doing it to someone else’s kids. Would you feel the same?
Doesn’t matter who does it. Adults should not be able to harm kids’ bodies if there is no proven medical purpose for it. Until we as a species agree on at least that, it’s a double standard.
I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that even in the scenario posed by the person I replied to, the farmer is not doing it to his own kids.
Fair but it’s still about the principle of doing piercings and other modifications to beings that cannot consent to it, just because you think it’s your right as an adult human. At least with cattle, there are legally mandated and pragmatic reasons. Meanwhile no secular law or medical journal supports doing it to babies. If so many folks can justify it regardless, then you can hardly expect them to see why it shouldn’t be done to other animals.
I have a feeling the affected cows care little about made-up human reasons as to why they're being hurt.
I don’t doubt it, but that wording can be repurposed too.
“I have a feeling the affected babies care little about made-up adult reasons as to why they’re being hurt”.
I prefer we go back to some form of indigenous thinking, be it Native American or even Ainu, where logic applied to human children is held the same across other species as well. If you think it’s wrong to do modifications on those that can’t consent, then it’s just wrong wholesale. Mind you, this isn’t just about tagging cows. Declawing cats, defanging snakes, docking dog tail/ears, clipping flight feathers, all are harm done for convenience which might not interfere with said creature still living a full life, but are still done with the animals not understanding why.
Nah, there are a bunch of people who are starting to realize it's fucked to put a baby through that. Just cause you and so many others are still behind on ethical matters and still practice putting body modifications on a baby without consent doesn't mean it's an ok thing to do.
It's not ethical to pierce the ears of human babies or to circumcise them. They cannot consent to such body modifications.
You must hate the employees at Claire’s
It's so they can be identified and therefore easily found if they wander off, are stolen, flee in a panic from predators, etc. and for tracking their relationships to other animals and who is the current owner. They can't exactly carry an ID or a birth certificate around. It's as painful as an ear piercing for a couple seconds and then it's over and they can go about their day.
But..like a lot of parents do that to their 2-3 year old kids..even I got my ears pierced at 3..it is weirdly popular.. Ironic I dislike earings.
So not even agriculture, who do it by law, since cows must have their ID.
My 5 yr old son is asking to get his ears pierced. I'm inclined to let him, but his mom thinks he should wait til 6.
I'm going to let her have the deciding vote on this, because I have massive 1 1/8" ear lobes, so clearly I am not the person who makes responsible decisions wrt piercings.
Yeah, but this isn’t a 2 to 3 year-old child equivalent. This is equivalent to a woman giving birth, and someone immediately ripping the baby out out of her arms, taking it and piercing its ears. It’s weird and the mom would be distraught. That baby is literally covered with after birth.
Steaks are lovely though
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I love animals but I eat them too. You can love animals and still eat them.
You can love babies and still eat them.
You don't actually love animals. You just like to say you do.
You love certain types of animals.
Make whatever assumption you want, your baby analogy is stupid as fuck. I don't gotta prove myself to you or any other self righteous vegan lmao. Yes, the industry is fucked, every industry is. I'm not going to defend it but I'm not gonna just cut meat out.
Not trying to get you to cut out meat. Trying to get you to be honest with yourself and what you say.
Want to point out why the analogy is stupid as fuck? I literally just replaced the subject of your statement and nothing else. And now, all of the sudden, you don't like it.
You sure sound like a very loving person.
Dont people take kids to get ears pierced everyday. Humans do it for fun
Agreed. It's unethical.
Edit: Interesting how "sucks" gets upvoted but "unethical" is downvoted.
It's a moment of pain which the animal will get over in a day ir two which helps keep it safe in the long run by making it easier to keep track of, allowing the farmer to let it roam a larger area and have a better quality of life because he can easily track it should it go missing, it also allows the farmer to limit the spread of disease abd keep track of its medical history easier as it grows up. .
It's like taking your baby to get vaccinated, it hurts for a brief few moments but your baby doesn't even remember it and it can save its life.
But hey, I get it, redditors wouldn't be redditors if they weren't outraged about every single post they see.
Or you know, we DONT breed billions of animals into existence to slaughter for our pleasure. None of this is necessary
Protein is pretty necessary to a healthy and balanced diet but okay, and you don't even know if these are for slaughter, or for milk.
And even if they were for slaughter, beef products are used for more than just food. Go ask a diabetic if they think insulin is necessary, because cows are a part of making some insulins (not all, but not every insulin works for every diabetic) as well as a whole range of other medical products.
I get it, you personally don't like to eat meat, that's fine. But there's nothing immoral about open range cattle farming which the tags allow.
Now, closed cage cattle farming is different and yes, that's disgusting and cruel. But that's not what this is.
"my house slaves are treated better than those plantation ones" - that's you
Also, protein does not require killing someone, who knew? And you're right. Idk if these cows are going to be slaughtered or raped for years and THEN slaughtered. Big difference.
As for the medical products, we get them (mostly) from animals because their bodies and body parts are so freely available. There are other ways to source insulin and most other animal derived products, but whatever you have to tell yourself
Holy shit... Comparing animal farming to real slavery is ridiculous. Stop trying to hunanise animals, it's weird, they aren't humans, they are cattle now because they were prey before, just like nearly everything in the animal kingdom is either predator or prey to something else and while animals aren't humans, humans are in fact just very evolved animals and natural predators at that.
Yes, good quality protein does require killing good quality sources of protein which are animals, not "someone", proteins are literally essential for healthy humans to grow, develop and sustain.
No, we get a lot of medicine from animal products because those animals offer things which are important to those medical products. It's not just a random shot in the barrel any old animal will do for any random medicine.
There is more than 1 kind of insulin, most of it doesn't need cows, some of it does. Some people need that kind.
Maybe, hopefully, in 100 years humans will have fully figured out and developed ways to sustain an entire population without animal products and without health set backs but that's not the case right now.
Even you at the moment as a vegan or vegetarian will be relying on animal products to function without even knowing it regardless of whatever cause you think you're on board with.
This is exactly my point of view. I was raised by a vegan and vegetarian person, so I am aware of the health benefits, and the health drawbacks.
What I don't think a lot of vegans realize is that their short term arguments are really bad for their long-term success.
Veganism, or ovo-lacto vegetarianism, are concepts that run completely opposed to what most human beings have been used to for hundreds, if not, thousands of years
Change is hard, is going to take a very long time, and is going to require a great deal of understanding.
Too many radical vegans forget that empathy isn't just for animals...
Bravo, friend! It’s precisely that factor which makes people become antagonistic to anyone loudly telling them to stop. When I was vegan, I informed people politely and they acknowledged it and at least for a time subconsciously wondered if they were eating more animal based products than they need for their health. It doesn’t work when you demonize.
Careful though. You might get cancelled on some vegan subs for statements like yours. >_> I love Reddit, but stopping radical echo chambers or at least keeping radicals away from regular folk is not its strong suit.
Good on you for affecting change in a healthy and inclusive way.
We need more of it on the internet T___T
What are the health drawbacks? (With a peer reviewed source, not a trust-me-bro argument) I can link plenty giving the health benefits.
But also, like omnivore diet, there are healthy ways of doing it and unhealthy ways. Veganism is not a diet or about food. Its about not harming animals for pleasure. I am empathetic to why people abuse animals (as someone who did it for most of my life), but im not empathetic to people who use bad logic and justifications to bullshit themselves into thinking its okay for them to do. There are 2 options. Animals deserve moral consideration, or they are products/items to use. Anything in the middle is hypocritical and nonsensical.
Completely incorrect. Protein is not just found in animals. It's found in all sorts of foods. There are a plethora of body builders who are vegan and are able to source their protein just fine. This is the most misconstrued argument against plant-based diets.
You don't need to humanise animals to understand they have emotions, can feel pain, and can experience trauma, fear, and suffering.
Those animals HAVE to eat their prey to survive. Some humans have to do the same. Plenty of humans do not, especially those in economically advanced areas.
This is another false flag argument. Veganism isn't about the complete eradication or animal suffering. It's about realistically minimizing the harm done to other animals through your own actions. Sometimes, animals testing may be required for life saving medications and the like. It sucks, but it is what it is.
Another fallacy, appealing to nature. Humans used to quite often rape and claim women for reproduction. Should we continue that practice? Who humans were does necessitate who humans can be or are today.
Why defend animal slavery?
What exactly do you think happens to cows in the wild?
Probably not slavery.
Some fucked up shit for sure, but I don't whataboutism nature.
That's not whataboutism. I think you've just seen other people use that word online and think it sounded cool.
I mention animal slavery and you ask " what about in the wild" .
Literally whataboutism
I didn't say what about. I simply just wanted to know what you thought happened in the wild.
Oh you asked it simply because you're interested in my viewpoint. Sure
No, that’s great.
That horses inner monolog definitely has Sam Elliott's voice.
💀
Okay but how is this Like Us. Seriously getting sick of this sub just being random neat animal videos.
idk horse is able enough to draw conclusions about danger concerning his buddy, just like we could
That’s just the most basic animal social instinct
Agree, neat video but this was 100% animal behavior, not what this sub is about
Shame, every niche sub will drift it's contents until it's homogeneous with every other similar sub because of crossposters looking for easy karma.
Do you not protect your friends when they are in danger?
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how
Wouldn't you try to protect your baby if someone was harming them?
Yeah I agree, at this point it is just an animal video sub
That cow is behaving like a human would if their baby was forcibly taken from them.
/j
How do you train a horse to do that though?
You don't. Horses are very much like dogs, they have the capacity to be extremely intelligent, loyal, and perceptive. (as animals with prey instincts they can also be extremely skittish and big ol scaredy cats) But just like a good dog will sense danger and instinctually protect their family, so will a good horse. There are countless stories throughout history
Wow that’s really cool
They are such amazing beautiful creatures. A good horse is like a best friend. You can feel the love!
Makes me think if there were evil horses influenced by their jockeys. Like a Mongolian or Medieval horse who loves to trample and murder out of loyalty
Oh without a doubt! There are many historical accounts of horses like that too. I have personally met some uniquely vicious horses and it always made me weary of their rider. Of course, sometimes animals have trauma or learned behavior, if it's domesticated more often than not a human was involved at some point, but sometimes a horse is just a mean SOB.
This comment was the one I was looking for. I'm chronically online and have seen this vid at least 4 times but it's a (personal phrasing) keystone textbook example of many possible animal intelligence.
Neat
Its a cattle horse breed. They are known for cutting too. Cutting is when the horse (with a rider)seperates a single cow from a herd. This useful trait is something thats anchored in the horses instincts simimiar to cattle dogs or border collies. When this act is performed you usually see the rider lean back on the horse because the horse will lower their head and front feet. On a good horse the rider doesnt need to interfere with the rains the horse will do the cutting. If you look at it you will notice the rains are never pulled short during this process.
Maybe not so much training but bund
Story from 14 years ago https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/montana-woman-credited-with-saving-illinois-boy-from-grizzly-bear/
Horses are tough.
(its)
☝️🤓
Nark
narc*
hmmmm there has got to be a better way than scaring mom and baby and training another animal to kick at moms face?
ok Bojack, lets bully this little black calf and kick his mom
Loyal beast
The maternal instinct to protect one’s young is very strong.
A lot of cows kick their calves to death
Wow! I wasn’t aware of that.
There is always a better way to do anything if you are willing to put the work into it. I’m not vegan, I wont be turning vegan ever, but this treatment of animals is cruel. These animals feed us, the least we can do is give them a good life before we eat them. If it is necessary to tag these creatures we can do it in a much more humane way that won’t distress the mother or the baby. Less stress makes the meat taste better too. Cheap, easy and cruel is not best, put the work into making things good. Don’t be a lazy cruel fuck.
THAT is a good horse. Hope he got a carrot
The horse took blood money letting the human molest and mutilate the baby. The mom tried to intervened but stopped. She kept crying.
So are they “like us” in that we too would protect our owners from the righteous indignation of our compatriots?
Maybe the horse doesn't think of the cow as it's compatriot
What a nice horsey, soo soo cute!
I absolutely love steak.
This is horrible. Fuck animal abusers.
Unfortunately, it’s actually law to tag cattle, as it’s vital not only to handle theft, but disease control too. Many bad things happened before the laws got to this point, and it phased out the need to brand them.
It doesn’t matter what you use the cattle for. Even ones you intend to keep as pets for life, need to be tagged in most jurisdictions.
So while it might be sad if they slaughter the cattle in the video, the need to tag is a separate matter.
None of this is necessary. It only happens because animal abusers can't be bothered to eat some damn plants. Animal agriculture would not exist if people had more integrity. Sanctuary animals would not exist because none of them would need to be saved. No one would have their children ripped away and numbered like a slave. So again, fuck animal abusers. They are the cause of this.
There is no "need". It is a decision. Decisions are made to breed the cattle, to brand/tag the cattle, to kill the cattle. We all can decide not to participate. I did, in 1986, and what do you know? I haven't died of starvation or protein deficiency!
Again, it doesn’t matter what you use the cattle for. You can neuter one and keep it in a sanctuary, but they’ll still be required to tag it. I agree we have too many cattle on earth right now in order to meet ever increasing demand, but outright wiping them out isn’t the solution either. We have heritage breeds that have rich histories behind them. Tags help keep them and ourselves safe. There might be other solutions in the future, but right now most developed countries have chosen this.
Btw, if you mean you’ve adopted sustainable veganism, I congratulate you on that. :) I too had zero issue acquiring protein on a vegan diet. Getting all the right vitamins wasn’t hard either since I loved fermented foods. Though admittedly, fermented foods are forbidden under a Jain diet so I wouldn’t adapt as well to the latter. Anyone who can thrive on a pure Jain diet/lifestyle deserves the highest respect.
However, it’s simply not practical at this juncture to tell the human race as a whole to stop the animal husbandry industry. Lab grown meat is one solution vegans are also pushing for as an alternative but it too is not flawless. Even in Europe, insects as an alternative protein are increasing, which require far less land and resources, but that too is exploitation and so contrary to veganism.
Still, if any measure can reduce overall animal deaths per year, it’s still a win in my book.
What do you think we all ate before vegan and vegetarian was even thought of?
I get what point you were trying to make but, the context is different. The “we all” wouldn’t apply to the last few thousand years in Asia for example, where Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Animism, etc heavily normalised vegetarian diet for millions. Vegetarianism is aligned with holiness even in Abrahamic religions, where Lent traditionally involved vegetarian diet too. If you mean in the ancient era, then we are talking about “need”, where we didn’t have the scale of production or infrastructure to depend on plant-based food alone. You are right there, but the other person must also agree there was a time when it was need and meant life and death to many groups especially during famine when most plant based sources would perish while preserved meats and cheeses would last.
Today though, the numbers are through the roof and cannot be compared to just the last century prior to factory farming was invented. We now consume far more animal-based foods than we ever did across cultures, whereas in the past only a select few who grew in harsh conditions had a “need” to depend on animals, like in the Arctic tundra, the high mountains, remote islands, the deserts and such. The idea that folk living in the heart of cities “need” this much meat in their diet is a new phenomenon developed through globalization rather than a traditional part of most of our cultures. I can assure you your great great grandfather ate a lot less meat in an average week than the average person does today and if he did eat more, he was in the minority even in his country.
Clearly you have low blood sugar, grumps
Fuck cattle ranchers
Shit take
Fuck all animal abusers.
This I can get behind
Including cattle ranchers
Don't cut yourself on that edge.
Why? Could I assume you don't eat meat and you're offended by people who do? I respect your choices, I'm just curious where your anger comes from. The ranchers I have known love and appreciate the land and the animals they raise in relative safety and comfort, far more than the average person going to the market for food they didn't raise and nurture themselves.
Factory farms are different. But ranchers are typically not corporate factories.
Some animals can only eat other animals, some plants eat animals, some animals eat plants, and some animals eat both. I'd love to hear your opinions on alternatives, because there is definitely a discussion there on ethics, efficiency, and resource management.
I bet you they have a vegan cat
So glad you found your thing! Now, do they ride you or are you riding them?
Ha!