I just started playing jungle but i seem to always fall back in levels and i can't understand why. In this photo, we have almost the same farm, i have 4 kills he has 3, he has 5 DEATHS i have none, both 1 assist. Not only shouldn't he have a 2 LEVEL LEAD but i should be the one ahead. Why did this happen?
He must have some of his botlane’s xp, trist is 3 lvls and 80 farm down.
Edit: Trist was afk and their team had more global xp as a result yeah, that’s gotta have contributed.
Classic ranked experience of mid having 0 vision score at 18 minutes lmao
and they have like the easiest and most important ward, raptor ward.
Hahaha
Not all kills give the same exp.
Not all cs give the same exp.
More importantly: catch-up exp. Something you as the leading jungler will never be able to gain relative to him.
So if he spends some time behind then meets your CS/kill exp exactly, he'll actually be ahead solely because he did worse.
A large part of why the role is a joke now.
Tristana 55 cs with 3 lvl behind.
Was she afk ? Did Yi stayed in lane and soaked xp ?
Here's the op.gg of the game.
I don't have a EUNE account, so I can't view it directly, but looking at the op.gg overview, it seems like Yi was ahead in farm for the early portion of the game. If this is because he's clearing camps and you aren't, then he's keeping up with your exp in kills by just killing more camps, and having higher level camps overall. If he's dying after his clears, then that shouldn't greatly affect his exp gain. He also got grubs, which gives a significant amount of exp to junglers.
Looking at the exp graph, he's slightly up on exp on you at 14 minutes, and then his kill on Urgot (mid) and whatever jungle/creep farm he took from 14-15 minutes pushed him up on you in exp. When he fights you after killing Kayle, you are likely very close to level 11, and he likely leveled off of killing Kayle.
Edit: I made an account and watched the replay. Yi got a large jump in exp from killing Urgot mid since Urgot was 2 levels up. At the start of the fight before the OP's screenshot, Shaco was like 1 creep off of hitting 11, and Yi was level 11 with half a level's worth of exp away from hitting 12. He gained half a level from killing Kayle, and OP took the screenshot after that level up.
Edit 2: Here's the clip of this fight with the exp shown.
Excellent analysis and writeup...and something OP could have also just seen by watching the replay lmao, I can't believe OP's first instinct was to post and complain on Reddit instead of watching the literal replay.
Realistically, everything should be more intuitive than this.
In the past similar CS and a kill/assist lead would always result in a similar or higher level, and likely a higher gold value, barring shutdown gold.
The fact that the one with fewer kills, more deaths, and similar CS can have a two level advantage shows how poorly designed many parts of the game are now.
Like, how far into the past are we looking? Because you've never been able to just look at simple kills and CS ever since they added and then increased shutdown golds. The most recent changes have actually made this system better because shutdown golds are a little more nuanced than just increasing based upon kills despite gold differences from other sources, but that's a relatively recent change considering how long shutdown gold has existed.
I don't think this is an example of poor game design. The experience gains required to reach higher levels increases as you go up, and the exp you get from creeps, camps, kills, and objectives scale to compensate. 4 CS 20 minutes in is just going to be worth more than 4 CS at the start of the game. On top of that, there also bonus exp you can get from killing higher level champions, as well as catch up exp. There's just not a great way to show all that without complicating the display even more, or giving away too much hidden information.
In a standard game, the display will give a pretty good idea of where everyone is at, but in situations where a player gets a lot of bonus exp, or if people are playing non-standard, or particularly inefficiently, it won't give as good of an idea.
I wasn't complaining. I remember in the old league that things were simpler. You get kills? You get a lead. Things have changed amd I couldn't understand what exactly I'm doing wrong and if people know how the levelling system works now and how to exploit it. In the old league ig you were 4/0 and was 1v1ing a 3/5 you would be ahead in level, gold, and pretty much everything so the 1v1 would be easy. At this stage of the game farm and kda were in my favour so it seemed very strange that he had such a lead so i wandered if he exploited something that i didn't know about cause it keeps happening in every match i play. Not nagging, just asking for help
Old league wasnt like that either. That has always been low elo mentality, you just, as a jungler had a lot more opportunities to get kills because there wasnt 9 objectives pulling you back and forth across the map.
CS is, was, and will always be the primary way to get an advantage in any role outside of support. A diamond lee sin in season 3 will gank 50 times. But they will also be full clearing on cooldown, or guarding their camps while contesting enemies. Every scuttle/obj/enemy camp you take uncontested is a 8CS deficit. Taking the first 3 scuttle crabs will put you at level 7 68 CS and your opponent will be level 5 44 CS. Even if the level 7 hasnt backed and the level 5 has for their 1000G component, the level 7 will sweep off of base stats alone.
Brother why are you talking about CS when their CS is similar.
There's no universe where you can conclude that it makes sense that 2 more CS and worse performance elsewhere should grant you a 2 level lead.
Where you recieve the CS matters. The 4 CS from grubs is worth 305 XP, The 4 CS from gromp is worth 150 XP, the 4 CS from wolf camp is worth 120 XP.
Lane minions give you practically 0 XP if you are over pushing them early game. There are many ways of getting insanely behind enemy jungler while keeping exact same CS.
Kills are very low XP unless the enemy you kill is 1+ levels ahead of you.
So logically the Yi was already ahead in XP, due to taking void grubs, and was pushed further ahead by solo killing mid or top, since they were both levels ahead of Yi. If Shaco had taken the void grubs and was CSing properly, given what appears to be an incredible lead, even with that kill on a solo laner, Shaco would be nearly 2 levels up on the Yi. He is asking why he is behind, I am telling him what he is doing wrong that is putting him behind. You cannot control the enemy junglers actions, but you can take advantage of them, and you can control yours.
As someone who has been playing since S1, I don't think that's been true since...ever? Baby wraiths were 1 CS IIRC and they were nowhere near equal in gold to other jungle camps, as a major example. You get big wraith stolen and you've lost like 75% of the gold in that camp. Ditto on jungle camps vs lane CS.
It's always been contextual, and ever since they added big shutdown golds and bounties and comeback mechanics, just looking at the scoreboard has been less than reliable. You should be judging enemy strengths based upon what they've been doing during the game rather than just a scoreline.
Deaths don't really factor into how strong or weak a champion is, only exp and items matter. Also you mention KDA, but farm is just as important. If someone is 10 cs/min with not kills and high deaths, they are still going to be incredibly strong. Without thinking about any bonus exp, you're basically even in farm (he's technically slightly up), and he's 3 kills to your 4 kills. You would just be 1 kill up in a normal game.
For this game, the biggest reason for the exp gap in your screenshot is that Yi got grubs and 3 kills on higher level champions (Aphelios, Urgot, and Kayle) that gave him a significant amount of bonus exp. Even with all that bonus exp, he's really actually just ~1 level over you, because you're like 1 creep away from leveling.
Is this Swiftplay?
No it's ranked
There are some levels of comeback XP involved in normal league but not to this degree normally. The only thing I can think of is he got a shutdown and/or killed someone with a level lead on him that slingshotted him back. Would be easier if you watch the replay and see exactly when he got a level lead and where your sources of farm was.
If a majority of your kills was you killing champions lower level than you and a majority of the kills that master yi got was from killing champions higher level than him, that would be one explanation.
This sounds like it's over tuned. Imagine if ADC could slingshot their level just by heading top when top has a level lead.
Edit: I didn't like my comment so I decided to back it up with some math
Let's say top lane gets 4 kills, the first kill on their laner is worth 1.0 with a diminishing return of 25% per kill so every kill is worth 25% less gold and consequently, assuming the mathematicians at league mathed hard enough, it takes around 25% less effort to kill this laner too.
So that means your top laner is now worth:
1 + .75 + 0.56 + 0.42
So they are worth 2.73 champions while enemy is worth 0.43 champions.
It definitely doesn't make sense for the top laner and jungle to shut down your top laner and get 3 champions worth of gold and exp, when they realistically did half the work each. This is what I'm assuming that causes the difference.
But there's another layer, while this mathematically makes sense, the top laner had to outplay and kill the enemy 4 times, while the enemy just has to do it once to bounce back. That effectively means it's easier in league to abuse the bounce back mechanics than it is to hold your lead and I see this in my games. Even with dragon and baron, the elder buff and baron buff are supposed to be game enders but unless you brutalize your enemy and hold your lead for 30 minutes, the game turns into a coin flip near these objectives and the winning factor is who can play around these objectives better.
I think the bounce back mechanics are good but they are over tuned as a whole and makes carrying extremely hard, while making it easy to climb as long as you can play a champion that works well in taking down key targets or handling objectives.
Which if I am so bold to say, is probably why bot lane feels the hardest to carry with, since you're effectively always going to be a walking glass cannon with a huge gold bounty that can swing the enemy team back into the game.
Lots of words, none of them matter. Tristana is AFK, the team gets more exp because of that.
Cool. Where does op mention this?
Slingshots shouldn't ever be this strong, and if anything should be dampened.
This happens so frequently in ranked games it's crazy. I've had games where I'm up kills and cs a fair amount but still 2 levels behind, then a few minutes later I'll be a level up on the enemy jungler. Defo something wonky going on with jungle xp. Think it's related to catch-up xp but don't think level leads should fluctuate this much, it makes the game feel super coin flippy
looks like he probably stole a bunch of exp from his bot lane? maybe he got all the crabs too?
(nvm looks like lux was taking all the cs)
Can’t tell officially but are you taking lane cs? That may have inflated your cs numbers if his is all jungle monsters.
Shaco would have a much harder time taking lane cs than Yi.
Almost guaranteed this is just comeback exp.
You share XP with people around you, so maybe take that into account? As well as the kind of CS? Cannon / melee / caster creeps taxed give XP in that order. It does look super weird tho, ngl. Riot being Riot, making things unclear.
Leeching 2 whole level seems weird unless Shaco about to level up.
Does bounty or shutdown kill gove more XP? Not sure.
im just gonna guess he was behind early and got crazy catchup xp
Welcome to catch-up exp.
athakan
When you are ganking, are you transitioning kills into pushes? Also a big thing is your cs is very low.
If you are familiar with laning Push > Play
Its basically the same for junglers except its Clear > Play
You have about 55 seconds each time you full clear to make something happen on the map, or more importantly, to respond to something happening on the map. If that thing happens to be a gank, you need to shove the wave afterwards so that you get xp equivalent of a Scuttle Crab trade, or an objective, and so on. ALWAYS Gank > Shove UNLESS you are ganking into an enemy slow push, and your laner is behind and doesnt need a reset or between the two of you, you have no reliable way to clear a massive wave. It will be more of a setback for the enemy during deathtimer to have that slowpush wave kills your waves while they are dead
Enemy jungler is bot? Gank/obj topside
You see enemy jungler gank bot during the “clear phase”, that means his topside is up, and its yours for the taking.
Shoving after a gank doesn't net you 2 levels when you have more deaths and fewer kills with similar cs. Split exp is not that good.
Catch-up EXP, however, is that good.
Catchup XP is, factually, not that good.
Same way anyone out levels shaco, ignore him and take his higher value spawned camps, honestly it baffles me how people lose to shaco given the optimal solution to beat shaco is treat him like he is a figment of your imagination that doesn't actually exist, i mean sure you could counter gank a delusion but why not take those camps instead? sure you could chase your delusion but why not just kill the ashe instead?
edit: my answers valid way to out level shacos they often leave their respawned camps up while they do weird stuff like sit in a bush then take your level one red buff while your clearing his respawned raptor and krug camps, do that a few times and yeah you out leveled them, it is a yi though, and based on the gold spike from 12-16 minute the rioters answer is probably the actual solution here but still, EUNE server and op.gg the yi's name.