i liked atakhan because of flavour and the powerup you have gotten from him was very satisfying
but man does the atakhan group decide the entire game, the worst situations are either: your team wipes and dies because of the 50 resistance drop or you dont group even with a lead and now you are 2 levels down vs resetting champions
Okay then you're admitting that a large chunk of champions are flat out useless.
I don't deny that it's a team game and grouping should be a core path to victory but right now, the winning move is to just group as 5 the SECOND laning phase ends because theres new objectives constantly. Also the cases of someone being so fed that they can just casually 1v3 is dead for 95% of champions with how much gold people get.
The passive gold and passive stats make it so hard to actually be so far ahead you can 1v5 the rest of the game. I can play mid, go down 0-2-0 and just afk farm and be 4 full items by 20 minutes despite playing like shit in a PvP game but just playing PVE
This makes literally no sense at all. How can anyone look at the early game changes and think that there is more strategic diversity? Does this guy really think that if they remove Ahtakan and buff hullbreaker that splitpushing will become a viable win condition again?
no, splitting is becoming more viable via plates on T2 turrets, which makes damaging a turret without completely destroying valuable, as well as the new crystal mechanic that builds up over time and deals bonus dmg the first time you hit a turret, which helps pushing in general but especially helps champs push that dont have super high tower dps.
Yeah, someone like Ryze can now do significant damage to the turret with crystals, which makes a bigger difference then you'd think. Junglers and supports can now quickly bop a turret if they happen to be close when the wave crashes and it'll actually have impact.
Everybody is (relatively, compared to previous metas) bad at pushing and taking towers now because the number of gaming ending neutral objectives you must contest as five is at an all time high.
Do the crystals make splitpushing better? It can be argued that it rewards teams for grouping up one lane at a time and letting the crystals build up in the other lanes.
And homeguards lasting until you reach the furthest minion waves
And minions getting a buff against turrets for a little time after killing a nearby champion, and more buffs to help converting after killing the defending champion (like the assassin item)
T2 plates don't matter at all, these days T2s are made out of paper and die in 1 wave anyway. Its not like the plates give you any more money, they just split it up.
Hot take but macro gameplay strategy is dramatically more interesting than wave management strategy. The turret crystals on all turrets instead of just outers is what actually makes splitpushing viable again.
Pro league was incredibly dull to watch the last time sit pushing was a viable wincon at the highest level. You would watch one team turtle and slowly lose until 1 teamfight at the end of a drawn out game.
There was actually less macro required, because the top laner did not actually need to rotate, because teamfights did not happen. You couldn't gank the top or mid, because wards were too plentiful, both jungles would be entirely lit up.
Now the good news, is that we do not have unlimited wards and oracles elixir still. The bad news is the yellow trinket cd buff is 30s at all levels, which pushes us more towards a total vision control scenario late game. I would like to see yellow trinket cd change so that at later levels it's the same as on live.
I still do not understand this at all, outside of lane phase team fighting is the reason to play a MOBA. Having frequent objectives to force fights (or if your team is worse at fighting, giving yourself a way to set up vision and get a pick because you know the enemy will rotate towards that objective) is a good thing.
Splitpushing is still valuable in this meta because you can disrupt an enemy team when they know you're a ticking time bomb heading towards their base. You're forcing them to either commit to the objective at a time that may not be optimal, send members back to defend which weakens their objective pressure, or give up the objective entirely if they can't commit to a decision.
Yes it is the reason the majority of us play it otherwise we would find a 1v1 game or pve game somewhere else
Does that mean macro non team fight gameplay is important to have, absolutely, but mobas should not allow someone to pve spilt without thought. This is point he was trying to make id imagine
Your entire view is based on the premise that all champions care about teamfighting equally so forcing the game to be about it is fine.
One of the reasons why split pushing exists is because some champions are terrible at teamfighting and they need an alternative option to influence the outcome of the game if they do well.
If you're playing Fiora or Tryndamere and your opponent is Malphite and the game is forced to be a 5v5, you probably aren't very happy about that whereas the Malphite will just happily take the teamfight fest and is fine with it.
So when you say that it shouldn't be "thoughtless" to split push I completely disagree with that when it's the default strategy for some champions since they're weak in larger fights. Are they supposed to be deeply thinking about engaging in their default winning strategy while you don't or what is the point here?
The devs should balance split pushing and teamfighting so that neither of them is too strong but saying that split pushing should have some deep criteria behind it before you're allowed to engage in it is silly.
I'm not even sure what you mean when you use the word "thoughtless", like if I'm Fiora and I take 5 seconds to think do I want to split push or group for a 5v5 the answer is pretty obvious. What other "thought" should I have there? Because the answer is that I never want to teamfight no matter what because my champion simply isn't designed for it.
Never did I say that was my entire premise, I did say majority not all.
So when you say that it shouldn't be "thoughtless" to split push I completely disagree
It should be thoughtful. Is my team on the correct place on the map for me to continue my spilt, should I back off, who on the enemy team is showing, is an objective up, where are the wards, who's hovering, could I catch someone out in rotation. All these are thoughts.
Thoughtless splitting is seen so often when trends or sions just butt their heads against towers without thought, dying then leaving your team in a losing 4v5
Because the answer is that I never want to teamfight no matter what because my champion simply isn't designed for it.
You're 5 0. Elder is going to be taken and you'll lose the game because your team will die 4 0 and give Eldar before you can finish the game. I reckon that would be a good time to team fight no?
MOBAS should allow players to do whatever they want instead of being forced to play whatever the developers want. That's where the fun of the genre lies.
Top gets even more xp from the next season. If your top laner fails, I'm looking forward to see who is going to stop that +5lvl enemy top from clearing all.
Yes it is, and saying it isn't shows you have absolutely no idea how the concept of pressure works in the game.
At its most fundamental level someone splitpushing will end the game if you don't stop them from pushing. If you're contesting a dragon at 23 minutes as red side and you have a tryndamere at your T2 tower when the dragon spawns you're now under considerable pressure to make a choice.
If you dance around the dragon trying to find an engage for 30 seconds your T2 turret is gone and Tryndamere is now knocking on your base, every second you wait is adding pressure and filling your mental stack; because the longer you wait to commit to a choice the more damage is done. Even if you commit to a choice, if you commit to the wrong one the splitpush is still successful - if you send 2 people back you lose the dragon, if you only send 1 person back you potentially lose the dragon and that person fails to stop the splitpush. You're weighing that against the fact you're now splitting your attention and won't be able to teamfight as well, or you might miss an opening to wipe the enemy team.
People who say splitpushing is bad in soloQ are bad at splitpushing and understanding macro, that's just the truth.
Splitpushing is still valuable in this meta because you can disrupt an enemy team when they know you're a ticking time bomb heading towards their base
Except youre not because its so slow. Just push out the wave with a mage who no melee champ can gap close and you buy yourself an entire minute to fight. Worst case scenario you give inhib which is a non issue
? your flair is Jax, someone who can absolutely run down or tower dive a mage in a sideline. Same with Fiora, Tryndamere, Nasus post-20 minutes, Olaf, Trundle etc.
Calling an inhib a non-issue in soloQ is wild. If you take top inhib then spam ping your team to 5 man bot the enemy are going to fumble the defence 90% of the time because it's soloQ and the burden of coordination is on them. It also makes crossmap objectives so much more difficult for the enemy because, again, they're working against the clock before supers start flooding their base
Jax is countered by any mage with CC. He doesnt have time to stack up his passive against mages who play properly and his E and ult are only good against AD champs.
Tryndamere
Most CCable champ oat
Calling an inhib a non-issue in soloQ is wild
Inhib is literally such a non issue youre reccomended to NOT take it in certain game states because the push helps your enemies. Just sack the inhib and get your free game winning objective bro I promise it will be fine
because, again, they're working against the clock before supers start flooding their base
And? Just let them in. Wtf are super minions gonna do against respawning self healing nexus turrets?
Think about it - strategic, team comp, and customisation (item, runes etc) build diversity without any "artificial" interference from Riot. This is what happens when you dumb-down and homogenise the game, you start introducing band-aid fixes that pile up and become formulaic slop.
Stop designing the game outside the bounds of League's core pillars. What use is longevity of League without its identity?
Okay but a solid amount of those bandaids are because the players optimized away the fun.
The optimal way to play the game was to lane swap bot into top and handshake a tower. Nobody. And I mean NOBODY wants to play or watch that.
You as a developer balancing the game are heavily incentivized to remove optimizations your community makes that are toxic to the overall experience. We both know nobody liked playing against klepto viktor/karma top. Or roaming enchanter top. Or funnel yi/taric. All of those individually got removed with “bandaids” with the exception of klepto which they outright just removed. Do we need to remember the red smite top era? Or the triple Doran’s ring mao/naut top? He’ll even corrupting pot/dark seal caused degenerate gameplay at a high level
First 12 minutes of the game are fucking gonna be a laning simulator, what are they talking about? After 12 minutes the Homeguards will screw over the rest of the game.
We didn't need drastically more important early game and laning, we needed the objective changes only, new items and new runes.
They really do not play their own game. How is strategic diversity up when they're dumbing down the game with earlier starts, faster minion spawn pacing, mega homeguards, faelights dumbing down the vision game, and quests binding you to lane? If anything next season is homogenising and watering down the game even more. The game no longer has organic strategy, its just Riot forced stuff now. Players cannot discover anything, its too formulaic.
And can someone explain to me how Crystals on the tower will incentivise seiging? When seiging is the act of pro-longed action near a certain location. You pop the crystal with one hit and dip. How is that seiging? It is just the demolish rune with a different VFX.
They've said it before that they don't play the game. They rely on whatever made-up statistics they've chosen.
Which, since they have, or used to have, a member of the balance team who was bronze... probably says a lot about how they decide on how to do anything for the game.
You do realize that several rioter league accounts are known, right? Sure they don't match the hardcore league grinder game counts because they have jobs, but they do play the game. Hell, Riot Wick, who IIRC is on the balance team, is GM and has nearly 700 games this season.
And this is not counting the internal playtesting they do because we can't know how much that happens.
And dude, you do realize the game experience for bronze does still matter right? Low elo experience arguably matters more than apex ranks and pro because that is the vast, vast majority of the playerbase.
Is that why lane swaps have been hardcode removed?
Is that why going support item on other roles has been hardcode removed?
Is that why going smite on other roles has been hardcode removed?
Is that why we are adding role quests in s16 that will streamline gameplay towards "riot-approved" gameplay? (you only get full XP on your set lane, only your given role can get your quest reward - which is a reward that is particularly useful for the role's "riot- approved" role strategy)
Is that why champions that do well outside their "riot-approved" roles are nerfed out of existence, instead of being balanced for the alternative role?
Is that why build paths are going to keep being stagnant with most champions building the same every game, since barely any items are being changed up, added or removed?
Is that why the bounty system was reworked to delete strategies that revolves around gaining an advantage from it?
Is that why adcs get nerfed magic resist any time they start being played midlane? What about mages being played bot lane?
Is that why Senna is only allowed to be either an adc or a supp but not both?
Is that why champion reworks tend to normalize champions strengths and weaknesses to make them more well-rounded and have less unique play styles, meaning less overall strategic diversity? Examples: Rammus, Yorick, illaoi
Is that why lane swaps have been hardcode removed?
Degenerate strategy that no one liked
Is that why going support item on other roles has been hardcode removed?
Degenerate strategy that no one liked
Is that why going smite on other roles has been hardcode removed?
Degenerate strategy that no one liked
Is that why we are adding role quests in s16 that will streamline gameplay towards "riot-approved" gameplay? (you only get full XP on your set lane, only your given role can get your quest reward - which is a reward that is particularly useful for the role's "riot- approved" role strategy)
If you queue for a role, you should play your role
Is that why champions that do well outside their "riot-approved" roles are nerfed out of existence, instead of being balanced for the alternative role?
Diana, Vayne, Poppy, Jax, Trundle, Talon, Warwick, Ivern, Morgana, other champs I cba to name
Is that why build paths are going to keep being stagnant with most champions building the same every game, since barely any items are being changed up, added or removed?
Most people will always build the most effective build in a PvP game, the items that get added/changed will become part of the every game build unless they're intended to be specifically situational
Is that why the bounty system was reworked to delete strategies that revolves around gaining an advantage from it?
Degenerate strategy that no one liked, bounty system was complained about for a long ass time
Is that why adcs get nerfed magic resist any time they start being played midlane? What about mages being played bot lane?
ADCs don't have the weakness that mages have in early laning phase when they're left 1v1, they have consistent damage from autos and don't have to worry about going OOM. AD champs start with AD, AP champs do not outside of Runes.
Is that why Senna is only allowed to be either an adc or a supp but not both?
Being able to do both would make her too supportive as a role that's supposed to carry or too good at carrying from a role that's supposed to be supportive. No reasonable person would think she should be able to do both
Is that why champion reworks tend to normalize champions strengths and weaknesses to make them more well-rounded and have less unique play styles, meaning less overall strategic diversity? Examples: Rammus, Yorick, illaoi
Because people don't like playing against those champs when their "unique" playstyle is degenerate or hyper-niche. And none of those champs' kits have meaningfully changed their core strengths and weaknesses enough to complain that they aren't largely the same playstyle as before, with the exception of Rammus being better against a wider champ pool
They don't have to worry about going OOM relative to mages, ADCs are designed around their autos being their main damage source, so they aren't fully ruined by not having mana for spells
in theory yes, in practice caster adc vs mage bot is C to play since mage needs one component and you need whole item to spam at the same rate at this point of the game your extra 30ad is not that valuable.
Now you're getting into specifics that aren't relevant to the original conversation. The original conversation was about ADCs getting nerfed out of mid, not how the matchup works out in botlane. Yes, caster ADCs are concerned about their mana. But as a general rule, ADCs function better without having access to abilities in a 1v1.
"No one liked that strategy" or "league players don't like strategic diversity" isn't true, although it could apply to most people, but it does not have anything to do with my point. My point is that Riot has been systematically removing strategic diversity for years, so this Rioter saying that they are improving strategic diversity is just a bad joke.
My point is that most of the "strats" you pointed out were broken and unfair.
They intend to have a multitude of fair viable strategies. Also some of the things you said are just wrong.
Such as the fact that they have tried multiple times to make Senna viable as both adc and support. It just usually ends up with one or both being broken, so they have to nerf it. (And im sure they will try again)
Should they leave things broken in the name of "strategic diversity"
What you are saying is not true. A strategy is not "unfair" or "fair", it is balanced or not balanced. Riot doesn't balance diverse strategies to make them "fair viable strategies", they remove them.
Riot doesn't intend to have a multitude of viable strategies, and they have demonstrated that throughout the years. They do not want strategic diversity.
When laneswapping gets strong, it doesn't get balanced until it is a fair strategy with strengths and weaknesses, it gets removed from the game.
When strategies that revolve around bounty systems appear, even if they aren't stronger than regular strategy, they get removed from the game.
Riot does not balance left-field strategies, Riot removes them.
What you are saying about Senna is also not true. You can go here https://wiki.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/Senna/Patch_history and ctrl+f "Wraith" for some insight on how Senna is intentionally bounced between two completely distinct playstyles.
Almost no one wants to play as or against the shit in your first few examples. And they typically balance around the role for a champion that is either most popular or has the most sustainable play-pattern.
I'm not sure what the current state of the game is, but I can tell from paragraphs 1, 2, 3, and 5 that you have no fucking clue what's going on.
There is a difference between, "this item gives free resources which counterbalance this champions windows of weakness" and "we want there to be more strategic options to finish the game".
Lane swap is hard coded out because it is a non-interactive strategy which can't be replicated in solo queue and makes for a horrible viewing experience.
Smite isn't allowed in other roles because they use it as a way to allow the jungler to access resources in a way that they want to restrict other roles because the jungler doesn't have another way to collect resources.
The champion thing is the most level one idiotic whiny bullshit this community the come up with. Non-standard builds are almost always, "look how glass cannon or uninteractive I can make this champion". Wow, you figured out how to play Tristana as a burst mage. Should they remove the reset off her rocket jump, or you know, tweak her so you can't come in from 1500 units and insta-gib someone.
Like it or not, league of legends is a game with almost no strategic diversity, and my points demonstrate how Riot has been systematically removing strategic diversity for years.
You're right but this subreddit nor the community at large will never accept it. They violently reject anything that requires them to play differently to what they're used to. They abhor having to learn what new champions, items or objective do.
In League the nail that sticks out doesn't get hammered down, it is pulverised by an orbital cannon following six months of incessant public outrage asking for its disintegration.
Exactly, strategic diversity in league of legends is heresy.
This rioter talking about how they're gonna improve strategic diversity is a bad joke. The moment an actually interesting alternate strategy is discovered it will be removed like it always has been.
nah dude they buffed Jayce jungle. that's REAL strategic diversity. not this fake strategy shit like cheater recalls or timing your mid wave for a bot dive.
I get its a team game but this season specifically has really been "whoever groups as 5 first wins the game"
Outside of my own terrible pkay, id reckon 50% of my losses are straight up from my team not grouping
this has been the game since season 11.
This has been the game since dragons stopped giving gold.
i liked atakhan because of flavour and the powerup you have gotten from him was very satisfying
but man does the atakhan group decide the entire game, the worst situations are either: your team wipes and dies because of the 50 resistance drop or you dont group even with a lead and now you are 2 levels down vs resetting champions
Yeah, that's the point? If you want to win game alone then balance is bad af.
We should not able to win alone games. Game is 5v5 because is team game god damn it.
That's why we need voice chat like in Valorant or dota2.
Okay then you're admitting that a large chunk of champions are flat out useless.
I don't deny that it's a team game and grouping should be a core path to victory but right now, the winning move is to just group as 5 the SECOND laning phase ends because theres new objectives constantly. Also the cases of someone being so fed that they can just casually 1v3 is dead for 95% of champions with how much gold people get.
The passive gold and passive stats make it so hard to actually be so far ahead you can 1v5 the rest of the game. I can play mid, go down 0-2-0 and just afk farm and be 4 full items by 20 minutes despite playing like shit in a PvP game but just playing PVE
This makes literally no sense at all. How can anyone look at the early game changes and think that there is more strategic diversity? Does this guy really think that if they remove Ahtakan and buff hullbreaker that splitpushing will become a viable win condition again?
no, splitting is becoming more viable via plates on T2 turrets, which makes damaging a turret without completely destroying valuable, as well as the new crystal mechanic that builds up over time and deals bonus dmg the first time you hit a turret, which helps pushing in general but especially helps champs push that dont have super high tower dps.
Yeah, someone like Ryze can now do significant damage to the turret with crystals, which makes a bigger difference then you'd think. Junglers and supports can now quickly bop a turret if they happen to be close when the wave crashes and it'll actually have impact.
Do you view Ryze as being bad at pushing and taking towers now?
Everybody is (relatively, compared to previous metas) bad at pushing and taking towers now because the number of gaming ending neutral objectives you must contest as five is at an all time high.
How often do you solo take t2 towers with ryze nowadays? That's what splitpushing comes down to. T2 tower and beyond, alone.
Compared to other midlane mages I think he does pretty well in that regard even if it's just due to his ult
Do the crystals make splitpushing better? It can be argued that it rewards teams for grouping up one lane at a time and letting the crystals build up in the other lanes.
the answer can be yes for both, doesnt have to be one or the other
And homeguards lasting until you reach the furthest minion waves
And minions getting a buff against turrets for a little time after killing a nearby champion, and more buffs to help converting after killing the defending champion (like the assassin item)
T2 plates don't matter at all, these days T2s are made out of paper and die in 1 wave anyway. Its not like the plates give you any more money, they just split it up.
Hot take but macro gameplay strategy is dramatically more interesting than wave management strategy. The turret crystals on all turrets instead of just outers is what actually makes splitpushing viable again.
Pro league was incredibly dull to watch the last time sit pushing was a viable wincon at the highest level. You would watch one team turtle and slowly lose until 1 teamfight at the end of a drawn out game.
There was actually less macro required, because the top laner did not actually need to rotate, because teamfights did not happen. You couldn't gank the top or mid, because wards were too plentiful, both jungles would be entirely lit up.
Now the good news, is that we do not have unlimited wards and oracles elixir still. The bad news is the yellow trinket cd buff is 30s at all levels, which pushes us more towards a total vision control scenario late game. I would like to see yellow trinket cd change so that at later levels it's the same as on live.
I still do not understand this at all, outside of lane phase team fighting is the reason to play a MOBA. Having frequent objectives to force fights (or if your team is worse at fighting, giving yourself a way to set up vision and get a pick because you know the enemy will rotate towards that objective) is a good thing.
Splitpushing is still valuable in this meta because you can disrupt an enemy team when they know you're a ticking time bomb heading towards their base. You're forcing them to either commit to the objective at a time that may not be optimal, send members back to defend which weakens their objective pressure, or give up the objective entirely if they can't commit to a decision.
Is it? If that's the case then why not just make ARAM the default game mode.
People play MOBAs for different reasons, including macro non-teamfight oriented gameplay.
Yes it is the reason the majority of us play it otherwise we would find a 1v1 game or pve game somewhere else
Does that mean macro non team fight gameplay is important to have, absolutely, but mobas should not allow someone to pve spilt without thought. This is point he was trying to make id imagine
Your entire view is based on the premise that all champions care about teamfighting equally so forcing the game to be about it is fine.
One of the reasons why split pushing exists is because some champions are terrible at teamfighting and they need an alternative option to influence the outcome of the game if they do well.
If you're playing Fiora or Tryndamere and your opponent is Malphite and the game is forced to be a 5v5, you probably aren't very happy about that whereas the Malphite will just happily take the teamfight fest and is fine with it.
So when you say that it shouldn't be "thoughtless" to split push I completely disagree with that when it's the default strategy for some champions since they're weak in larger fights. Are they supposed to be deeply thinking about engaging in their default winning strategy while you don't or what is the point here?
The devs should balance split pushing and teamfighting so that neither of them is too strong but saying that split pushing should have some deep criteria behind it before you're allowed to engage in it is silly.
I'm not even sure what you mean when you use the word "thoughtless", like if I'm Fiora and I take 5 seconds to think do I want to split push or group for a 5v5 the answer is pretty obvious. What other "thought" should I have there? Because the answer is that I never want to teamfight no matter what because my champion simply isn't designed for it.
Never did I say that was my entire premise, I did say majority not all.
It should be thoughtful. Is my team on the correct place on the map for me to continue my spilt, should I back off, who on the enemy team is showing, is an objective up, where are the wards, who's hovering, could I catch someone out in rotation. All these are thoughts.
Thoughtless splitting is seen so often when trends or sions just butt their heads against towers without thought, dying then leaving your team in a losing 4v5
You're 5 0. Elder is going to be taken and you'll lose the game because your team will die 4 0 and give Eldar before you can finish the game. I reckon that would be a good time to team fight no?
MOBAS should allow players to do whatever they want instead of being forced to play whatever the developers want. That's where the fun of the genre lies.
Then play a mmorpg?
The game is sculpted by the developers into the game they want. We play their game and the game they want to see.
So many things that riot have implemented that stopped players doing whatever they want for the betterment of the game
Want to still see 0 kills at 25 minutes in progames for example?
no. splitpushing is not viable and hasnt been useful in years. lets not gaslight ourselves.
its also going to get worse next season.
Top gets even more xp from the next season. If your top laner fails, I'm looking forward to see who is going to stop that +5lvl enemy top from clearing all.
Yes it is, and saying it isn't shows you have absolutely no idea how the concept of pressure works in the game.
At its most fundamental level someone splitpushing will end the game if you don't stop them from pushing. If you're contesting a dragon at 23 minutes as red side and you have a tryndamere at your T2 tower when the dragon spawns you're now under considerable pressure to make a choice.
If you dance around the dragon trying to find an engage for 30 seconds your T2 turret is gone and Tryndamere is now knocking on your base, every second you wait is adding pressure and filling your mental stack; because the longer you wait to commit to a choice the more damage is done. Even if you commit to a choice, if you commit to the wrong one the splitpush is still successful - if you send 2 people back you lose the dragon, if you only send 1 person back you potentially lose the dragon and that person fails to stop the splitpush. You're weighing that against the fact you're now splitting your attention and won't be able to teamfight as well, or you might miss an opening to wipe the enemy team.
People who say splitpushing is bad in soloQ are bad at splitpushing and understanding macro, that's just the truth.
Except youre not because its so slow. Just push out the wave with a mage who no melee champ can gap close and you buy yourself an entire minute to fight. Worst case scenario you give inhib which is a non issue
? your flair is Jax, someone who can absolutely run down or tower dive a mage in a sideline. Same with Fiora, Tryndamere, Nasus post-20 minutes, Olaf, Trundle etc.
Calling an inhib a non-issue in soloQ is wild. If you take top inhib then spam ping your team to 5 man bot the enemy are going to fumble the defence 90% of the time because it's soloQ and the burden of coordination is on them. It also makes crossmap objectives so much more difficult for the enemy because, again, they're working against the clock before supers start flooding their base
Jax is countered by any mage with CC. He doesnt have time to stack up his passive against mages who play properly and his E and ult are only good against AD champs.
Most CCable champ oat
Inhib is literally such a non issue youre reccomended to NOT take it in certain game states because the push helps your enemies. Just sack the inhib and get your free game winning objective bro I promise it will be fine
And? Just let them in. Wtf are super minions gonna do against respawning self healing nexus turrets?
Think about it - strategic, team comp, and customisation (item, runes etc) build diversity without any "artificial" interference from Riot. This is what happens when you dumb-down and homogenise the game, you start introducing band-aid fixes that pile up and become formulaic slop.
Stop designing the game outside the bounds of League's core pillars. What use is longevity of League without its identity?
Okay but a solid amount of those bandaids are because the players optimized away the fun.
The optimal way to play the game was to lane swap bot into top and handshake a tower. Nobody. And I mean NOBODY wants to play or watch that.
You as a developer balancing the game are heavily incentivized to remove optimizations your community makes that are toxic to the overall experience. We both know nobody liked playing against klepto viktor/karma top. Or roaming enchanter top. Or funnel yi/taric. All of those individually got removed with “bandaids” with the exception of klepto which they outright just removed. Do we need to remember the red smite top era? Or the triple Doran’s ring mao/naut top? He’ll even corrupting pot/dark seal caused degenerate gameplay at a high level
Little Timmy queueing up his silver soloq game won't face any lane swaps
First 12 minutes of the game are fucking gonna be a laning simulator, what are they talking about? After 12 minutes the Homeguards will screw over the rest of the game.
We didn't need drastically more important early game and laning, we needed the objective changes only, new items and new runes.
We needed the thing they've already done 100x again
They really do not play their own game. How is strategic diversity up when they're dumbing down the game with earlier starts, faster minion spawn pacing, mega homeguards, faelights dumbing down the vision game, and quests binding you to lane? If anything next season is homogenising and watering down the game even more. The game no longer has organic strategy, its just Riot forced stuff now. Players cannot discover anything, its too formulaic.
And can someone explain to me how Crystals on the tower will incentivise seiging? When seiging is the act of pro-longed action near a certain location. You pop the crystal with one hit and dip. How is that seiging? It is just the demolish rune with a different VFX.
They've said it before that they don't play the game. They rely on whatever made-up statistics they've chosen.
Which, since they have, or used to have, a member of the balance team who was bronze... probably says a lot about how they decide on how to do anything for the game.
God bless any rioter still visiting this subreddit, I know I wouldn't have the patience with people like you
Right? These people are insufferable. No subreddit is more skilled at talking out of their ass than the league subreddit.
You do realize that several rioter league accounts are known, right? Sure they don't match the hardcore league grinder game counts because they have jobs, but they do play the game. Hell, Riot Wick, who IIRC is on the balance team, is GM and has nearly 700 games this season.
And this is not counting the internal playtesting they do because we can't know how much that happens.
And dude, you do realize the game experience for bronze does still matter right? Low elo experience arguably matters more than apex ranks and pro because that is the vast, vast majority of the playerbase.
Is that why lane swaps have been hardcode removed?
Is that why going support item on other roles has been hardcode removed?
Is that why going smite on other roles has been hardcode removed?
Is that why we are adding role quests in s16 that will streamline gameplay towards "riot-approved" gameplay? (you only get full XP on your set lane, only your given role can get your quest reward - which is a reward that is particularly useful for the role's "riot- approved" role strategy)
Is that why champions that do well outside their "riot-approved" roles are nerfed out of existence, instead of being balanced for the alternative role?
Is that why build paths are going to keep being stagnant with most champions building the same every game, since barely any items are being changed up, added or removed?
Is that why the bounty system was reworked to delete strategies that revolves around gaining an advantage from it?
Is that why adcs get nerfed magic resist any time they start being played midlane? What about mages being played bot lane?
Is that why Senna is only allowed to be either an adc or a supp but not both?
Is that why champion reworks tend to normalize champions strengths and weaknesses to make them more well-rounded and have less unique play styles, meaning less overall strategic diversity? Examples: Rammus, Yorick, illaoi
Degenerate strategy that no one liked
Degenerate strategy that no one liked
Degenerate strategy that no one liked
If you queue for a role, you should play your role
Diana, Vayne, Poppy, Jax, Trundle, Talon, Warwick, Ivern, Morgana, other champs I cba to name
Most people will always build the most effective build in a PvP game, the items that get added/changed will become part of the every game build unless they're intended to be specifically situational
Degenerate strategy that no one liked, bounty system was complained about for a long ass time
ADCs don't have the weakness that mages have in early laning phase when they're left 1v1, they have consistent damage from autos and don't have to worry about going OOM. AD champs start with AD, AP champs do not outside of Runes.
Being able to do both would make her too supportive as a role that's supposed to carry or too good at carrying from a role that's supposed to be supportive. No reasonable person would think she should be able to do both
Because people don't like playing against those champs when their "unique" playstyle is degenerate or hyper-niche. And none of those champs' kits have meaningfully changed their core strengths and weaknesses enough to complain that they aren't largely the same playstyle as before, with the exception of Rammus being better against a wider champ pool
true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true
Based take apart from ADC not caring about OOM
They don't have to worry about going OOM relative to mages, ADCs are designed around their autos being their main damage source, so they aren't fully ruined by not having mana for spells
in theory yes, in practice caster adc vs mage bot is C to play since mage needs one component and you need whole item to spam at the same rate at this point of the game your extra 30ad is not that valuable.
Now you're getting into specifics that aren't relevant to the original conversation. The original conversation was about ADCs getting nerfed out of mid, not how the matchup works out in botlane. Yes, caster ADCs are concerned about their mana. But as a general rule, ADCs function better without having access to abilities in a 1v1.
"No one liked that strategy" or "league players don't like strategic diversity" isn't true, although it could apply to most people, but it does not have anything to do with my point. My point is that Riot has been systematically removing strategic diversity for years, so this Rioter saying that they are improving strategic diversity is just a bad joke.
How were any of those healthy for the game?
If something isn't healthy for the game then it shouldn't be in the game
Of course they are healthy to the game, they give strategic diversity. That's what I would say.
But like you, Riot devs think strategic diversity is unhealthy for the game. That's exactly my point, and why this quote from the Riot dev is a joke.
That's a solid 7/10 way to dodge a question.
How are they healthy for the game? since u didn't want to answer me I'll just ask again
More possible strategies makes the game more interesting.
There's a difference between split pushing and going smite janna top with a support item.
There's also a similarity, they both give the game strategic diversity.
My point is that most of the "strats" you pointed out were broken and unfair.
They intend to have a multitude of fair viable strategies. Also some of the things you said are just wrong.
Such as the fact that they have tried multiple times to make Senna viable as both adc and support. It just usually ends up with one or both being broken, so they have to nerf it. (And im sure they will try again)
Should they leave things broken in the name of "strategic diversity"
What you are saying is not true. A strategy is not "unfair" or "fair", it is balanced or not balanced. Riot doesn't balance diverse strategies to make them "fair viable strategies", they remove them.
Riot doesn't intend to have a multitude of viable strategies, and they have demonstrated that throughout the years. They do not want strategic diversity.
When laneswapping gets strong, it doesn't get balanced until it is a fair strategy with strengths and weaknesses, it gets removed from the game.
When strategies that revolve around bounty systems appear, even if they aren't stronger than regular strategy, they get removed from the game.
Riot does not balance left-field strategies, Riot removes them.
What you are saying about Senna is also not true. You can go here https://wiki.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/Senna/Patch_history and ctrl+f "Wraith" for some insight on how Senna is intentionally bounced between two completely distinct playstyles.
Almost no one wants to play as or against the shit in your first few examples. And they typically balance around the role for a champion that is either most popular or has the most sustainable play-pattern.
I'm not sure what the current state of the game is, but I can tell from paragraphs 1, 2, 3, and 5 that you have no fucking clue what's going on.
There is a difference between, "this item gives free resources which counterbalance this champions windows of weakness" and "we want there to be more strategic options to finish the game".
Lane swap is hard coded out because it is a non-interactive strategy which can't be replicated in solo queue and makes for a horrible viewing experience.
Smite isn't allowed in other roles because they use it as a way to allow the jungler to access resources in a way that they want to restrict other roles because the jungler doesn't have another way to collect resources.
The champion thing is the most level one idiotic whiny bullshit this community the come up with. Non-standard builds are almost always, "look how glass cannon or uninteractive I can make this champion". Wow, you figured out how to play Tristana as a burst mage. Should they remove the reset off her rocket jump, or you know, tweak her so you can't come in from 1500 units and insta-gib someone.
So many dogshit points all in a row. Nice job.
Like it or not, league of legends is a game with almost no strategic diversity, and my points demonstrate how Riot has been systematically removing strategic diversity for years.
You're right but this subreddit nor the community at large will never accept it. They violently reject anything that requires them to play differently to what they're used to. They abhor having to learn what new champions, items or objective do.
In League the nail that sticks out doesn't get hammered down, it is pulverised by an orbital cannon following six months of incessant public outrage asking for its disintegration.
Exactly, strategic diversity in league of legends is heresy.
This rioter talking about how they're gonna improve strategic diversity is a bad joke. The moment an actually interesting alternate strategy is discovered it will be removed like it always has been.
You may enjoy dota if you like the wild game changing niches of each champs kit
I dislike how movement works in dota
Understandable! Riot has strong investment in fewer "non-games" and flatter counterpicks so the range of strategies and playstyles is tighter.
nah dude they buffed Jayce jungle. that's REAL strategic diversity. not this fake strategy shit like cheater recalls or timing your mid wave for a bot dive.