Let me guess, the classes will all be from ten am to two pm on weekdays only? That's what they do in my area, and then complain that foreigners don't take advantage of the free language and culture classes.
That drives me nuts. There is a Saturday, all day class. But it only covers Minna No Nihongo 1. It take a year, and then it's the same next year. I get that helping beginners is great, but they don't even try to get to intermediate levels.
I'm the only foreigner directly in my area, so I just take community art classes at the local community center. I've learned a lot of my conversational Japanese from the local gossip mill. Which is great, but it's not something that is doable for large amounts of foreign residents. And I was already fairly decent before then, so it was more bridging the gap to daily Japanese from textbook Japanese.
To tell the truth, I don't think it matters so much that what is offered is free (or not) or that it's too basic.... because, the root to learning a language if you're living in the country itself is perserverance and a lot of self-study to take advantage and immerse yourself while you're there.
Beginner classes are mostly useful as an introduction to the language, and IMHO to incentivize people who are genuinely interested in learning the language.
FWIW I am not trying to disagree with you, just add to the dialogue :-)
It’s very frustrating. I called to enroll and asked if I’d be able to leave 30 minutes early on Tuesdays only (because I have to work.) “No.” was there response. Well, guess I have to pay to do private lessons then 🥴
Even if they have night classes who is gonna want to go after a long day of work or during their time off on the weekend.
All these changes they are trying to make are going to make it harder for the foreign people they “need” to come here and work. Visa price hikes but stagnant wages are gonna keep a lot of people away.
For what it’s worth - immigrant to Australia who became a citizen and then a lawyer (Now former) who worked on citizenship and immigration policies because of my experience under them
This is what AUSTRALIA does. They will crap on you for not being able to speak English BUT:
- Defunded English classes and training for new immigrants
- Yup those classes were in the middle of the work day (Unless you paid for special evening classes)
- You would receive the same 10 (Childish) English classes regardless of ability. This mean people who had no English were with people who had some English and GUESS how effective those classes were
- The pass threshold was attempted to be RAISED to meet an “Australian” standard that didn’t really exist
- The test and government donor private company that runs it are incredibly suspect. While it’s difficult to evidentially prove, due to government backing, that certain people are passed more than others - it’s generally a given. I know how that sounds but I absolutely believe it
- That suspect $380+ test has to be taken every two years regardless of your actual ability because it expires but is needed for applications (Native speaker - took it 8+ times)
Get mad about it? You’ll get shouted down for not respecting the rules or trying to be a sneaky immigrant (But only if you’re certain types)
When I came to Japan I was so surprised at the difference between that experience and how my city approached the issue. They offered fantastic night classes online and in-person at multiple levels with great teachers
I’m kind of concerned that Japan will end up taking the Australian approach now
When I loved here from the U.S. a few years ago I always thought the government should subsidize some type of program for new comers to work jobs that help uplift new residents’s japanese skills. Simple jobs that use numbers and general conversation. Plus a few language classes. I would be all over that. In Hokkaido there is no such thing so I rely on my own solo study and my wife and maybe a lucky interaction with my neighbors. Personally, my pop quizzes consist of every week I go to the Lawson near me to practice with cashiers. Buying news papers or asking for general items available for sale. just to practice. Haha.
At our local ward office in Yokohama they offer ridiculously cheap beginner and intermediate group classes. Covers a lot of life basics too with presentations by the fire department, talking about disaster preparedness, reading supermarket flyers, etc.
if it were just language classes, yes - look at the article though, they're putting more emphasis on "societal integration" which has a way more ominous tone. re-education camp vibes.
How does that translate to putting people into camps. That's really a stretch. I think relations with foreigners would be warmer if new people knew the expectations here or had some assistance. It's not an easy country to integrate to.
their terms for "acceptable integration" are already irrational. up until about three years ago it was "learn the language, sort the trash, and don't be a dick" - you could get by with a basic "when in rome, do as romans do" mindset
now it's "we're going to go out of our way to hassle you over any perceived rule-violation even if it's something the locals do all the time and turn it into a political issue" - they're becoming a nation of karens and legislating "societal integration" in the terms this article proposes of having a segregated "pre-school" that foreign children must attend before going to japanese schools, and tying "social integration classes" to your visa status gives the same vibe as re-education camps.
No need for someone being brought on for a medium term contract to have Japanese skills before arrival, and their family will be hanging with other expat families too.
People on spouse visas should need language skills before moving? I don't think so
The first 3/4 of the article are about cranking up language skills of foreigners then switches in its last quarter to:
"In a proposal in July, the National Governors’ Association urged the central government to establish measures for co-existing with foreign residents in Japan.
So far, so good. In-line with the earlier stuff in the article.
The LDP’s project team is also expected to include in its midterm proposal measures to identify nationalities when allocating public housing or housing provided by the semi-governmental Urban Renaissance Agency.
Huh? What has this to do with languages? When I came to Japan 21 years ago and got married with my J-wife was Urban Renaissance a life-saver as we couldn't find a place to live accepting foreigners. First of all, insure that foreign immigrants are not being discriminated against when coming to Japan when its comes to housing! Oh yeah, while at it, made 礼金, 仲介手数, 更新料, 保証人 and 保証料 illegal across the board (UR does not require them, hence everybody wants to live in their buildings)!
"The goal is to address the sharp increase in foreign children enrollment in some schools, which has resulted from more foreigners living in public housing."
Huh? Do they mean foreign kids living in public housing while being schooled? Or do they mean that the cost of schooling the kids forces foreign households to look for public housing to soften the financial expenses of schooling. If the latter, Japanese households would get hit and deal with the problem the same way. If foreigners doing that are considered a problem, sorry, so should be Japanese households. If the Japanese households doing that are not considered a problem, then neither should foreign households. If not, what's the connection? Sorry, don't get that one?
"This measure also aims to prevent the improper use of the public assistance system by foreigners, which guarantees a minimum standard of living for low-income households. This would be done by identifying the users’ nationalities and visa types through the national My Number identification cards."
Err, Japan wants foreign workers. A lot of them for cheaply paid jobs. These workers would de facto fall into the low-income household category when coming from abroad (i.e. they are poor when coming) and while staying in Japan (i.e. they remain low-income while working in Japan). That part reads like segregate foreign low-income households from Japanese ones...
Verdict: a mess of an article in its last part. The only thing that reads is that when it comes to foreigners in Japan, Japan continues to "want both its cake and eat it".
The more they will push the envelope, the less appetizing Japan will look to foreigners ready to emigrate.
Japan should just say what they mean... "We dont want Chinese buying up property and refusing to integrate into our JAPANESE society." But as they always do they beat around the bush and hurt the people they actually do want.
Huh? Do they mean foreign kids living in public housing while being schooled? Or do they mean that the cost of schooling the kids forces foreign households to look for public housing to soften the financial expenses of schooling.
It might mean they will spread out foreigners so that they aren't all concentrated. A lot of them need extra support due to the language barrier so it must be a little intense if there are several foreign kids who can't speak Japanese clustered in one school.
Wouldn't it be easier to cluster foreign kids together?
I work at a school that has many foreign kids. There is an interpreter (for the biggest language group) a few days a week, and there are language support teachers who offer Japanese lessons to the students.
It seems easier doing it that way. Compared to having a school with 1 foreign kid where it would be expensive to hire a support teacher for 1 student only.
Also, the foreign students who have been here a couple of years will help translate and support for the new students who just arrived and are lost and confused.
Yeah, I guess. I was just speculating on what the passage in the article meant. However, I remember reading an article about a school with such an issue, and it highlighted the strain on resources at the school. That support costs money, and we know the boards are tight with money.
Let's be honest as well, it could be pandering to the racists who would think having a cluster of Chinese or Islamic kids at a school would constitute a cultural invasion.
Please give me Japanese lessons… happily. But I think giving people some kind of credit towards classes that fit their own schedule would make more sense
Language schools are required to have a couple days of "cultural instruction" each term.
All that ends up meaning is, some units on language-culture interaction stuff (いいです and 大丈夫 can both mean "yes" or "no that's Ok" depending on context/tone, and other stuff that isn't well served by textbooks alone), some light legal instruction (videos about bicycle rules, the death spiral of overstaying your visa and help lines if you find yourself in that kind of legal purgatory etc, and warnings about any tickets/infractions potentially affecting visa renewal, Q&A with the local police department, etc). Most of it was actually pretty tame and well thought out in my experience, though obvious if you've been here a while (which people sponsored by a language school often won't have been).
I suspect that requiring it for other visas/sponsors would just manifest as companies requiring online cultural training units in the same vein as their security training units lol.
Okay, so Korea has done this for years I think. In order to be naturalized to Korean you either have to pass a difficult test or have enough hours in the Korean learning program.
The idea is definitely good, but I have no faith on how Japanese will handle this given all their pervious examples.
Glad someone mentioned this! I participated in their (free) social integration program during the first few years I lived there. The language classes actually progress to about intermediate level and they give a lot of cultural context that most expats would normally not get if they’re working a 9-5. They have multiple times of the day to attend these courses as well. I finished it during Covid in which they switched everything online, took their exam, passed and was able to apply for long term residency by point system. So far since moving to Japan though, I haven’t found a program quite like that. Local community hall/center where I live doesn’t even have actual classes (more like a study hall with local elderly volunteers). I hope whatever the gov is planning would be more structured for actual societal integration similar to that of Korea.
This is what we have had in Australia for decades. Not to get a visa, but to help you integrate.
500 hours (IIRC) of free classes, several locations nationwide, also available online. Actually, I think the 500-hour limit was removed in some places.
This is the free translation services in my state, with 120 languages available for health services. Don't have the time to check all states, but it appears similar services are available in the ones I did. Also, available for decades.
Then there is SBS broadcasting. Yes, around for decades too.
Japan can't complain foreigners not assimilating unless it gets serious about helping them to so, instead of portraying them as nuisances and criminals.
Some idiots will say Japan can't afford these kinds of services, but it was the same or worse in the Bubble Era when there was plenty of money. Also, money seemed to be no problem spending money on the Olympics, Expo, Maglev etc.
Typing this as I watch Takaishi on TV valiantly defending Japan from the foreign invasion that exists inside her head.
i think the difference here is that australia wants to actually help foreigners assimilate and not just punish us for being foreign by adding additional hoops to jump thru in order to live here.
you don't need to engage with any of this in order to keep your visa, and their english requirements for the visa are pretty lenient and have exceptions for things like "you work for a foreign company that's placed you in australia and you're being paid enough to live there"
also in aus, the default length of the visas most temporary workers are on is 4y, so just by that standard they're already treating workers better than the japanese, who can keep us on 1y visas forever for entirely arbitrary and vague reasons.
Back home people would assume my wife is Australian, or it is a matter of time before she gets citizenship after being told she is not.
Here, 8,000 people a year is not even 1% of the foreign population. There are stories that some police still insist they carry proof of their status which is absolutely ridiculous. Imagine the news if police in Australia did the same.
i'd say the same about my home but we're currently in a huge mess of using the enforcement arm of Immigration to harass and profile anyone that's the wrong skin color :(
but most americans would just assume my wife's a local bc she passes as white lol
I would absolutely love free Japanese classes. As someone with 2 kids and working full-time (remotely), online would be even better. I could "easily" carve out an hour of my work day or so. Worst case, some place open at like 5-6 pm or 6-7 pm I can physically go to. I'd even pay a reasonable fee if the lessons are quality.
In the meantime I try to study when I can, usually after work and after the kids are in bed, and after we get the house cleaned up and ready for the next morning. So I usually fall asleep learning Japanese on my phone and don't get anything meaningful done. And I'm someone who can practice Japanese every day with my wife, a lot of foreigners don't even have that.
I think that having structured classes, plus the government actually showing interest in making the foreign population feel they are valued (not just rhetoric with no substance), would greatly increase fluency among the foreign community.
It's pretty clear that the LDP are full of shit though. I really feel bad for volunteer groups that genuinely try to help the foreign population. They need more recognition.
Except anecdotal evidences of Miller-san not understanding what the SoftBank clerk tells him when buying the latest iPhone, it just strikes me as an additional restriction on foreigners with no net benefits for the society as a whole. It will make Japan less attractive for foreign workforce.
I see a lot of people advocating for foreigners to blend-in and be more Japanese than the Japanese. The Japanese society itself favors integration but ironically will always remind you that you’re a foreigner, for your whole life, even if you speak better Japanese than them.
I’m not against having people learn the language to their heart content but having the government enforces it strikes me as another populist rhetoric to ensure that “we got our foreigner issue under control”, were visa holders, especially long terms ones such as permanent resident, can just live their life just fine without Japanese and fill their other contribution to the society just fine as well.
How quickly they moved from "Japanese competence" as a requirement to "Beginner Japanese lessons". The truth is the only way to most people will ever be able to learn Japanese is by living and working with Japanese in Japan for a number of years, which requires a visa first.
The goal is to prevent conflicts between foreign residents and local communities and to curb rising xenophobia by making these lessons a requirement when applying for some visa types.
I'm pretty sure the extreme racist types won't give a shit either way if you can speak the language and understand the rules and whatnot. Racists are not bound by logic so trying to have a rational and courteous dialogue with them is pointless.
Language competency strikes me as an essential component to a sensible immigration policy. I also think learning and committing to some cultural norms should be included.
It's going to depend on the visa. While Japanese is somewhat easier to learn while abroad, most of the learning will be done while in the country. So how do you learn it before your visa application? If it's for a work visa you're in a catch-22: can't move to Japan to learn the language because you don't sufficiently know the language. Then you'll get corrupt certifying agencies in developing nations sending people out with false paperwork.
Okay, so what if it's to upgrade a work visa to a longer term visa? Similar issue: where do you find the time and money to take classes and improve your level? If you're really valuable to a company they might make it happen but for everyone in factory, construction, agriculture, education, and part-time, you're stuck with little pay, little free time, and even less employee support resources.
IMO this is likely to cause the number of highly fluent residents to decrease because they were blocked by catch-22s, forced to go home or disincentivized from coming initially.
In a practical sense does this actually matter? While we might judge a long term resident with poor language skills, what is the community impact? Does Japan suffer from having long term residents with lower language ability instead of just short term residents with lower language ability? This sounds more like an argument for trying to reduce the amount of residents who get more rights and better employment opportunities so that a higher percentage of foreign residents are those stuck in "unskilled" jobs that locals don't want to do.
I think it matters only when there are lots of immigrants who don't speak the national language and they start identifying and collescing as a subgroup.
I'm a big believer in a melting pot, but I think it works best when there's a common language and a shared sense of basic norms.
Japan has had long term residents who don't speak Japanese since the colonial era. Somehow it hasn't led to a total societal collapse. Probably due to the complete lack of political power afforded to non-citizens.
Good point. I think my concern is when there's a higher percentage of immigrants. I think it's about 3% in Japan. If/when this gets to 10% I think it's a very different situation.
Well, since the immigration controls keep tightening and Japan is specifically importing rotational workers to replace rural labor, I don't think that's going to be an issue
I‘ve been advocating that for ages. There are TONS of foreigners in Japan who either completely rely on their spouse for Japanese, don‘t speak at all(single) or just broken, even after DECADES. Those are the ones giving us the reputation of: foreigner problem!!! foreigner don‘t know trash rule!!! help, English!!! (misspelled on purpose)
Nobody, they will just teach the most trivial things as sorting trash, and that's about it. Thinking that Japan and Japanese are so culturally unique and so hard to understand, further pushing this weird nihonjinron ideology.
That's what I'm guessing. It will be mostly condescending "please remember that we Japanese don't drop out garbage in the street like they do in other countries!"
To be totally honest, I don't care about this. I have worked for many companies in Japan and they usually train their new hires on social and business etiquette as a part of their intake (this includes Japanese people). Japanese companies who bring in new workers regardless of their sociological status should invest time in teaching manners to their new employees.
I don't consider Japan particularly unique, but I think the businesses who onboard foreign workers should be responsible for making sure their employees can handle their daily lives after their shifts end. If they want to partner with a capable community group, fine. But there are a lot of new foreign laborers in places where a lot of younger Japanese don't live. There is probably not a community group or major language school in the area to teach these people language and manners.
I agree. I've worked in offices in Japanese companies. I've worked in Japanese blue collar work. I have Japanese friends and married into a Japanese family. They're really not that different from other people/cultures in the world.
As someone who was a mid-career transfer and made many missteps this would be really helpful. Some things I simply didn't know until someone told me outright.
People who are spouses of Japanese who don't speak a lick of Japanese despite being her over a decade you really wonder how they got around here at all! Like after a decade you should be N4 at least but nope.
Same way some of my extended family can live for decades in the US and speak almost no English beyond basic greetings, I guess. And so if I meet a person in Japan that can't speak Japanese despite being here for years, I don't pass judgment on them without first trying to understand their individual situation.
For example, a friend of mine has a Japanese spouse, has a demanding job in an all-English environment (not military or a posting from overseas), makes bank (in JPY) and has a very happy family with kids that are bilingual. He takes good care of his wife when they're in his home country, and he simply doesn't need to speak Japanese well in order to have a great life here. I chose a career path that required Japanese fluency and he didn't. That's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think either case is really good if you ask me.
Immigrants should at the very minimum be able to speak and converse at the basic level although if you are an elderly person who doesn't get around much I can very much understand how they would not be able to speak much of the local language but if you're able bodies and able to work I think you should really learn at least the basics of the language.
I'm back in the states now, and after 10 years to my surprise my Japanese wife still can't hear the difference between "aho" and "awful", and so forth, although she works everyday in an all English environment. She prefers Japanese at home - it's not going to change.
I personally don't agree with your statement that the foreigners who don't learn the language are the troublemakers and I say this as someone who does regularly use and continues to learn the language. I agree that anyone coming here should be making a genuine effort into learning the language and that the government should do more to help make that easier but the people causing these foreigner problems are more often actually tourists, or people who come here simply to work and don't make any effort in adapting to the way of life.
Yes, language is a big part of that process but while I don't agree with it, Japan has been surprisingly doable with limited Japanese for certain groups of people.
To living in any country without knowing the dominant language is asking an incredible indulgence from the locals. It can work out if people have a reason to indulge you.
It can be stressful for locals if one in a thousand interactions they have in a week mandates the use of hand language and cell phone translation tools, but not quite as stressful as having to become fluent in a language as soon as you set foot in a foreign country.
Well the problem is that in certain places and certain sectors it is not one in one thousand interactions. That mindset of " I am just one exception so please stop everything and go out of your way to indulge me" is problematic if many other people also think so. I will gladly help the first American, Chinese or Korean tourist of the day. But by the fifth one? I don't know if I can honestly say I'd be as friendly.
Do you work in a service that is in a tourist area? If so, it is absolutely the role of your job to be polite with people who don't speak your language.
The trash one you over exaggerated. I moved to a part of Kobe recently and see some japanese residents incorrectly placing cardboard on the specific day. The actual rule is to walk a minute over to a specific spot and place it there. Some don't tie it and it just flies into the main street. The main problem is the system is complex and even if a Japanese were to move back to Japan after living overseas, they would have trouble.
"Those are the ones giving us the reputation of: foreigner problem!!!" -- I don't think that's fair. Not everyone can learn a language equally well, naturally there is variation.
Japanese aside "and other societal instruction"? What freaking instructions? They will be teaching how to sort that garbage or what? That sounds so dystopia and just pure nihonjin.
Yeah I'm sure this will do really well, like their english education system. Seriously though, can we stop pretending that "protecting the culture" means not learning english. It's not culture, it's just lazy.
That’s cool but I hope it won’t be mandatory, like a requirement to renew a visa, since my language level is pretty fluent but i never bother to take stupid JLPT…
How I hope they accept n test as ways to not do this… I got a couple yrs before I go and least want to have n3-2 before I go and I swear if I have to waste time despite taking those test then what’s the point.
>They will also discuss the structure of the proposed “pre-school,” where foreign children would acquire basic knowledge, primarily Japanese language skills, before entering Japanese schools.
so, segregation and re-education style brainwashing? epic move.
Language classes could help create a smoother transition for newcomers, but let's make sure they fit into real people's lives and schedules, not just 9 to 5.
Ok hear me out, a 180 second long "Japanese culture for dummies" played on inbound airplanes prior to departure wouldn't hurt, most airlines already show a safety video anyway. Just go over basic stuff like
stand on left, walk on right (reversed in Osaka)
trash sorting
basic train etiquette
restaurant culture: no tipping, no modifications, not all restaurants have bilingual staff
Not all people come here to stay and requirement for language skills at visa application even before entry is too much,, not to mention classes rather than test scores naturally provide a breeding ground for corruption. So I think it should be done this way:
Languages skills are not need for initial visa applications, and only for those which lead to eventual naturalization or permanent residency at annual renewals with proof of increased proficiency every year finally reaching to near-par level after which permanent status shall be granted. Lags will delay this progress, and failure after a grace period equals to disinterest in settling just like falling short of the required time in the country in the US for example.
Let me guess, the classes will all be from ten am to two pm on weekdays only? That's what they do in my area, and then complain that foreigners don't take advantage of the free language and culture classes.
Don't forget they only cover to unit 6 in Genki or Minna no Nihongo because the students who do show up are usually total beginners.
That drives me nuts. There is a Saturday, all day class. But it only covers Minna No Nihongo 1. It take a year, and then it's the same next year. I get that helping beginners is great, but they don't even try to get to intermediate levels.
I'm the only foreigner directly in my area, so I just take community art classes at the local community center. I've learned a lot of my conversational Japanese from the local gossip mill. Which is great, but it's not something that is doable for large amounts of foreign residents. And I was already fairly decent before then, so it was more bridging the gap to daily Japanese from textbook Japanese.
This feels like the "Tutorial Hell" for people learning programming, but its the equivalent for people learning Japanese.
To tell the truth, I don't think it matters so much that what is offered is free (or not) or that it's too basic.... because, the root to learning a language if you're living in the country itself is perserverance and a lot of self-study to take advantage and immerse yourself while you're there.
Beginner classes are mostly useful as an introduction to the language, and IMHO to incentivize people who are genuinely interested in learning the language.
FWIW I am not trying to disagree with you, just add to the dialogue :-)
It’s very frustrating. I called to enroll and asked if I’d be able to leave 30 minutes early on Tuesdays only (because I have to work.) “No.” was there response. Well, guess I have to pay to do private lessons then 🥴
Just show up and leave when you have to lol? What are they going to do?
Who is the "they" in both cases here? Most people don't even know such classes exist
Even if they have night classes who is gonna want to go after a long day of work or during their time off on the weekend.
All these changes they are trying to make are going to make it harder for the foreign people they “need” to come here and work. Visa price hikes but stagnant wages are gonna keep a lot of people away.
That's a feature for them, not a bug.
For what it’s worth - immigrant to Australia who became a citizen and then a lawyer (Now former) who worked on citizenship and immigration policies because of my experience under them
This is what AUSTRALIA does. They will crap on you for not being able to speak English BUT:
- Defunded English classes and training for new immigrants
- Yup those classes were in the middle of the work day (Unless you paid for special evening classes)
- You would receive the same 10 (Childish) English classes regardless of ability. This mean people who had no English were with people who had some English and GUESS how effective those classes were
- The pass threshold was attempted to be RAISED to meet an “Australian” standard that didn’t really exist
- The test and government donor private company that runs it are incredibly suspect. While it’s difficult to evidentially prove, due to government backing, that certain people are passed more than others - it’s generally a given. I know how that sounds but I absolutely believe it
- That suspect $380+ test has to be taken every two years regardless of your actual ability because it expires but is needed for applications (Native speaker - took it 8+ times)
Get mad about it? You’ll get shouted down for not respecting the rules or trying to be a sneaky immigrant (But only if you’re certain types)
When I came to Japan I was so surprised at the difference between that experience and how my city approached the issue. They offered fantastic night classes online and in-person at multiple levels with great teachers
I’m kind of concerned that Japan will end up taking the Australian approach now
That would actually help a lot for newcomers.
Help a lot if you're unemployed or freelancer, classes are usually on weekdays and on working hours
When I loved here from the U.S. a few years ago I always thought the government should subsidize some type of program for new comers to work jobs that help uplift new residents’s japanese skills. Simple jobs that use numbers and general conversation. Plus a few language classes. I would be all over that. In Hokkaido there is no such thing so I rely on my own solo study and my wife and maybe a lucky interaction with my neighbors. Personally, my pop quizzes consist of every week I go to the Lawson near me to practice with cashiers. Buying news papers or asking for general items available for sale. just to practice. Haha.
At our local ward office in Yokohama they offer ridiculously cheap beginner and intermediate group classes. Covers a lot of life basics too with presentations by the fire department, talking about disaster preparedness, reading supermarket flyers, etc.
The intermediate one most discusses news topics.
if it were just language classes, yes - look at the article though, they're putting more emphasis on "societal integration" which has a way more ominous tone. re-education camp vibes.
How does that translate to putting people into camps. That's really a stretch. I think relations with foreigners would be warmer if new people knew the expectations here or had some assistance. It's not an easy country to integrate to.
their terms for "acceptable integration" are already irrational. up until about three years ago it was "learn the language, sort the trash, and don't be a dick" - you could get by with a basic "when in rome, do as romans do" mindset
now it's "we're going to go out of our way to hassle you over any perceived rule-violation even if it's something the locals do all the time and turn it into a political issue" - they're becoming a nation of karens and legislating "societal integration" in the terms this article proposes of having a segregated "pre-school" that foreign children must attend before going to japanese schools, and tying "social integration classes" to your visa status gives the same vibe as re-education camps.
it's re-education camps with extra steps.
This is too vague to be meaningful.
No need for someone being brought on for a medium term contract to have Japanese skills before arrival, and their family will be hanging with other expat families too.
People on spouse visas should need language skills before moving? I don't think so
welcome to japanese immigration policy 101, be vague as possible to twist and turn the rules as you please at any time.
The first 3/4 of the article are about cranking up language skills of foreigners then switches in its last quarter to:
"In a proposal in July, the National Governors’ Association urged the central government to establish measures for co-existing with foreign residents in Japan.
So far, so good. In-line with the earlier stuff in the article.
The LDP’s project team is also expected to include in its midterm proposal measures to identify nationalities when allocating public housing or housing provided by the semi-governmental Urban Renaissance Agency.
Huh? What has this to do with languages? When I came to Japan 21 years ago and got married with my J-wife was Urban Renaissance a life-saver as we couldn't find a place to live accepting foreigners. First of all, insure that foreign immigrants are not being discriminated against when coming to Japan when its comes to housing! Oh yeah, while at it, made 礼金, 仲介手数, 更新料, 保証人 and 保証料 illegal across the board (UR does not require them, hence everybody wants to live in their buildings)!
"The goal is to address the sharp increase in foreign children enrollment in some schools, which has resulted from more foreigners living in public housing."
Huh? Do they mean foreign kids living in public housing while being schooled? Or do they mean that the cost of schooling the kids forces foreign households to look for public housing to soften the financial expenses of schooling. If the latter, Japanese households would get hit and deal with the problem the same way. If foreigners doing that are considered a problem, sorry, so should be Japanese households. If the Japanese households doing that are not considered a problem, then neither should foreign households. If not, what's the connection? Sorry, don't get that one?
"This measure also aims to prevent the improper use of the public assistance system by foreigners, which guarantees a minimum standard of living for low-income households. This would be done by identifying the users’ nationalities and visa types through the national My Number identification cards."
Err, Japan wants foreign workers. A lot of them for cheaply paid jobs. These workers would de facto fall into the low-income household category when coming from abroad (i.e. they are poor when coming) and while staying in Japan (i.e. they remain low-income while working in Japan). That part reads like segregate foreign low-income households from Japanese ones...
Verdict: a mess of an article in its last part. The only thing that reads is that when it comes to foreigners in Japan, Japan continues to "want both its cake and eat it".
The more they will push the envelope, the less appetizing Japan will look to foreigners ready to emigrate.
Japan should just say what they mean... "We dont want Chinese buying up property and refusing to integrate into our JAPANESE society." But as they always do they beat around the bush and hurt the people they actually do want.
It might mean they will spread out foreigners so that they aren't all concentrated. A lot of them need extra support due to the language barrier so it must be a little intense if there are several foreign kids who can't speak Japanese clustered in one school.
Wouldn't it be easier to cluster foreign kids together?
I work at a school that has many foreign kids. There is an interpreter (for the biggest language group) a few days a week, and there are language support teachers who offer Japanese lessons to the students.
It seems easier doing it that way. Compared to having a school with 1 foreign kid where it would be expensive to hire a support teacher for 1 student only.
Also, the foreign students who have been here a couple of years will help translate and support for the new students who just arrived and are lost and confused.
Yeah, I guess. I was just speculating on what the passage in the article meant. However, I remember reading an article about a school with such an issue, and it highlighted the strain on resources at the school. That support costs money, and we know the boards are tight with money.
Let's be honest as well, it could be pandering to the racists who would think having a cluster of Chinese or Islamic kids at a school would constitute a cultural invasion.
Please give me Japanese lessons… happily. But I think giving people some kind of credit towards classes that fit their own schedule would make more sense
"societal instruction" LOL
Do as we say, not as we do.
Language schools are required to have a couple days of "cultural instruction" each term.
All that ends up meaning is, some units on language-culture interaction stuff (いいです and 大丈夫 can both mean "yes" or "no that's Ok" depending on context/tone, and other stuff that isn't well served by textbooks alone), some light legal instruction (videos about bicycle rules, the death spiral of overstaying your visa and help lines if you find yourself in that kind of legal purgatory etc, and warnings about any tickets/infractions potentially affecting visa renewal, Q&A with the local police department, etc). Most of it was actually pretty tame and well thought out in my experience, though obvious if you've been here a while (which people sponsored by a language school often won't have been).
I suspect that requiring it for other visas/sponsors would just manifest as companies requiring online cultural training units in the same vein as their security training units lol.
Okay, so Korea has done this for years I think. In order to be naturalized to Korean you either have to pass a difficult test or have enough hours in the Korean learning program.
The idea is definitely good, but I have no faith on how Japanese will handle this given all their pervious examples.
Glad someone mentioned this! I participated in their (free) social integration program during the first few years I lived there. The language classes actually progress to about intermediate level and they give a lot of cultural context that most expats would normally not get if they’re working a 9-5. They have multiple times of the day to attend these courses as well. I finished it during Covid in which they switched everything online, took their exam, passed and was able to apply for long term residency by point system. So far since moving to Japan though, I haven’t found a program quite like that. Local community hall/center where I live doesn’t even have actual classes (more like a study hall with local elderly volunteers). I hope whatever the gov is planning would be more structured for actual societal integration similar to that of Korea.
This is what we have had in Australia for decades. Not to get a visa, but to help you integrate.
500 hours (IIRC) of free classes, several locations nationwide, also available online. Actually, I think the 500-hour limit was removed in some places.
This is the free translation services in my state, with 120 languages available for health services. Don't have the time to check all states, but it appears similar services are available in the ones I did. Also, available for decades.
Then there is SBS broadcasting. Yes, around for decades too.
Japan can't complain foreigners not assimilating unless it gets serious about helping them to so, instead of portraying them as nuisances and criminals.
Some idiots will say Japan can't afford these kinds of services, but it was the same or worse in the Bubble Era when there was plenty of money. Also, money seemed to be no problem spending money on the Olympics, Expo, Maglev etc.
Typing this as I watch Takaishi on TV valiantly defending Japan from the foreign invasion that exists inside her head.
i think the difference here is that australia wants to actually help foreigners assimilate and not just punish us for being foreign by adding additional hoops to jump thru in order to live here.
you don't need to engage with any of this in order to keep your visa, and their english requirements for the visa are pretty lenient and have exceptions for things like "you work for a foreign company that's placed you in australia and you're being paid enough to live there"
also in aus, the default length of the visas most temporary workers are on is 4y, so just by that standard they're already treating workers better than the japanese, who can keep us on 1y visas forever for entirely arbitrary and vague reasons.
Back home people would assume my wife is Australian, or it is a matter of time before she gets citizenship after being told she is not.
Here, 8,000 people a year is not even 1% of the foreign population. There are stories that some police still insist they carry proof of their status which is absolutely ridiculous. Imagine the news if police in Australia did the same.
i'd say the same about my home but we're currently in a huge mess of using the enforcement arm of Immigration to harass and profile anyone that's the wrong skin color :(
but most americans would just assume my wife's a local bc she passes as white lol
I would absolutely love free Japanese classes. As someone with 2 kids and working full-time (remotely), online would be even better. I could "easily" carve out an hour of my work day or so. Worst case, some place open at like 5-6 pm or 6-7 pm I can physically go to. I'd even pay a reasonable fee if the lessons are quality.
In the meantime I try to study when I can, usually after work and after the kids are in bed, and after we get the house cleaned up and ready for the next morning. So I usually fall asleep learning Japanese on my phone and don't get anything meaningful done. And I'm someone who can practice Japanese every day with my wife, a lot of foreigners don't even have that.
I think that having structured classes, plus the government actually showing interest in making the foreign population feel they are valued (not just rhetoric with no substance), would greatly increase fluency among the foreign community.
It's pretty clear that the LDP are full of shit though. I really feel bad for volunteer groups that genuinely try to help the foreign population. They need more recognition.
Really excited that this is going to be managed by a government world famous for the quality of its foreign language programs.
Which problem are we trying to solve here?
Except anecdotal evidences of Miller-san not understanding what the SoftBank clerk tells him when buying the latest iPhone, it just strikes me as an additional restriction on foreigners with no net benefits for the society as a whole. It will make Japan less attractive for foreign workforce.
I see a lot of people advocating for foreigners to blend-in and be more Japanese than the Japanese. The Japanese society itself favors integration but ironically will always remind you that you’re a foreigner, for your whole life, even if you speak better Japanese than them.
I’m not against having people learn the language to their heart content but having the government enforces it strikes me as another populist rhetoric to ensure that “we got our foreigner issue under control”, were visa holders, especially long terms ones such as permanent resident, can just live their life just fine without Japanese and fill their other contribution to the society just fine as well.
How quickly they moved from "Japanese competence" as a requirement to "Beginner Japanese lessons". The truth is the only way to most people will ever be able to learn Japanese is by living and working with Japanese in Japan for a number of years, which requires a visa first.
I'm pretty sure the extreme racist types won't give a shit either way if you can speak the language and understand the rules and whatnot. Racists are not bound by logic so trying to have a rational and courteous dialogue with them is pointless.
If they make it into law they'll just find some other stupid excuse to be xenophobic.
Language competency strikes me as an essential component to a sensible immigration policy. I also think learning and committing to some cultural norms should be included.
It's going to depend on the visa. While Japanese is somewhat easier to learn while abroad, most of the learning will be done while in the country. So how do you learn it before your visa application? If it's for a work visa you're in a catch-22: can't move to Japan to learn the language because you don't sufficiently know the language. Then you'll get corrupt certifying agencies in developing nations sending people out with false paperwork.
Okay, so what if it's to upgrade a work visa to a longer term visa? Similar issue: where do you find the time and money to take classes and improve your level? If you're really valuable to a company they might make it happen but for everyone in factory, construction, agriculture, education, and part-time, you're stuck with little pay, little free time, and even less employee support resources.
IMO this is likely to cause the number of highly fluent residents to decrease because they were blocked by catch-22s, forced to go home or disincentivized from coming initially.
I think this can be addressed by having different standards for different visa types and duration.
If someone wants to come for a couple years, language skills are not as important. If someone wants to stay 10 years, it's more important.
IMO, a country should balance attracting immigrants who add value with maintaining a common culture.
In a practical sense does this actually matter? While we might judge a long term resident with poor language skills, what is the community impact? Does Japan suffer from having long term residents with lower language ability instead of just short term residents with lower language ability? This sounds more like an argument for trying to reduce the amount of residents who get more rights and better employment opportunities so that a higher percentage of foreign residents are those stuck in "unskilled" jobs that locals don't want to do.
I think it matters only when there are lots of immigrants who don't speak the national language and they start identifying and collescing as a subgroup.
I'm a big believer in a melting pot, but I think it works best when there's a common language and a shared sense of basic norms.
Japan has had long term residents who don't speak Japanese since the colonial era. Somehow it hasn't led to a total societal collapse. Probably due to the complete lack of political power afforded to non-citizens.
Good point. I think my concern is when there's a higher percentage of immigrants. I think it's about 3% in Japan. If/when this gets to 10% I think it's a very different situation.
Well, since the immigration controls keep tightening and Japan is specifically importing rotational workers to replace rural labor, I don't think that's going to be an issue
I‘ve been advocating that for ages. There are TONS of foreigners in Japan who either completely rely on their spouse for Japanese, don‘t speak at all(single) or just broken, even after DECADES. Those are the ones giving us the reputation of: foreigner problem!!! foreigner don‘t know trash rule!!! help, English!!! (misspelled on purpose)
I am more interested in the societal instruction part. Who will teach behavioural cues and mannerisms?
Nobody, they will just teach the most trivial things as sorting trash, and that's about it. Thinking that Japan and Japanese are so culturally unique and so hard to understand, further pushing this weird nihonjinron ideology.
That's what I'm guessing. It will be mostly condescending "please remember that we Japanese don't drop out garbage in the street like they do in other countries!"
To be totally honest, I don't care about this. I have worked for many companies in Japan and they usually train their new hires on social and business etiquette as a part of their intake (this includes Japanese people). Japanese companies who bring in new workers regardless of their sociological status should invest time in teaching manners to their new employees.
Business manners =/= to whatever social rules and nonsense you can come up with to reinforce Japanese " uniqueness".
I don't consider Japan particularly unique, but I think the businesses who onboard foreign workers should be responsible for making sure their employees can handle their daily lives after their shifts end. If they want to partner with a capable community group, fine. But there are a lot of new foreign laborers in places where a lot of younger Japanese don't live. There is probably not a community group or major language school in the area to teach these people language and manners.
I agree. I've worked in offices in Japanese companies. I've worked in Japanese blue collar work. I have Japanese friends and married into a Japanese family. They're really not that different from other people/cultures in the world.
As someone who was a mid-career transfer and made many missteps this would be really helpful. Some things I simply didn't know until someone told me outright.
Haha I know the type!
People who are spouses of Japanese who don't speak a lick of Japanese despite being her over a decade you really wonder how they got around here at all! Like after a decade you should be N4 at least but nope.
Same way some of my extended family can live for decades in the US and speak almost no English beyond basic greetings, I guess. And so if I meet a person in Japan that can't speak Japanese despite being here for years, I don't pass judgment on them without first trying to understand their individual situation.
For example, a friend of mine has a Japanese spouse, has a demanding job in an all-English environment (not military or a posting from overseas), makes bank (in JPY) and has a very happy family with kids that are bilingual. He takes good care of his wife when they're in his home country, and he simply doesn't need to speak Japanese well in order to have a great life here. I chose a career path that required Japanese fluency and he didn't. That's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think either case is really good if you ask me.
Immigrants should at the very minimum be able to speak and converse at the basic level although if you are an elderly person who doesn't get around much I can very much understand how they would not be able to speak much of the local language but if you're able bodies and able to work I think you should really learn at least the basics of the language.
Yeah nah bad immigrants right there.
I'm back in the states now, and after 10 years to my surprise my Japanese wife still can't hear the difference between "aho" and "awful", and so forth, although she works everyday in an all English environment. She prefers Japanese at home - it's not going to change.
Wrong
I personally don't agree with your statement that the foreigners who don't learn the language are the troublemakers and I say this as someone who does regularly use and continues to learn the language. I agree that anyone coming here should be making a genuine effort into learning the language and that the government should do more to help make that easier but the people causing these foreigner problems are more often actually tourists, or people who come here simply to work and don't make any effort in adapting to the way of life.
Yes, language is a big part of that process but while I don't agree with it, Japan has been surprisingly doable with limited Japanese for certain groups of people.
To living in any country without knowing the dominant language is asking an incredible indulgence from the locals. It can work out if people have a reason to indulge you.
It can be stressful for locals if one in a thousand interactions they have in a week mandates the use of hand language and cell phone translation tools, but not quite as stressful as having to become fluent in a language as soon as you set foot in a foreign country.
Well the problem is that in certain places and certain sectors it is not one in one thousand interactions. That mindset of " I am just one exception so please stop everything and go out of your way to indulge me" is problematic if many other people also think so. I will gladly help the first American, Chinese or Korean tourist of the day. But by the fifth one? I don't know if I can honestly say I'd be as friendly.
If you work in a tourist area that is your own problem
It certainly isn't my problem. I just do it out of courtesy.
Do you work in a service that is in a tourist area? If so, it is absolutely the role of your job to be polite with people who don't speak your language.
The trash one you over exaggerated. I moved to a part of Kobe recently and see some japanese residents incorrectly placing cardboard on the specific day. The actual rule is to walk a minute over to a specific spot and place it there. Some don't tie it and it just flies into the main street. The main problem is the system is complex and even if a Japanese were to move back to Japan after living overseas, they would have trouble.
I‘m just talking about general perception. And tbh media portrayal doesn‘t really help
Yeah and it's mostly subjective which means nothing.
"Those are the ones giving us the reputation of: foreigner problem!!!" -- I don't think that's fair. Not everyone can learn a language equally well, naturally there is variation.
Free?
Japanese aside "and other societal instruction"? What freaking instructions? They will be teaching how to sort that garbage or what? That sounds so dystopia and just pure nihonjin.
Yeah I'm sure this will do really well, like their english education system. Seriously though, can we stop pretending that "protecting the culture" means not learning english. It's not culture, it's just lazy.
So 100 hour “societal instruction” class on how all garbage is burnable?
That’s cool but I hope it won’t be mandatory, like a requirement to renew a visa, since my language level is pretty fluent but i never bother to take stupid JLPT…
That worked so well in Quebec lol
Good thing I took it in high school and college!
How I hope they accept n test as ways to not do this… I got a couple yrs before I go and least want to have n3-2 before I go and I swear if I have to waste time despite taking those test then what’s the point.
>They will also discuss the structure of the proposed “pre-school,” where foreign children would acquire basic knowledge, primarily Japanese language skills, before entering Japanese schools.
so, segregation and re-education style brainwashing? epic move.
You should know Japanese if you live in Japan
Language classes could help create a smoother transition for newcomers, but let's make sure they fit into real people's lives and schedules, not just 9 to 5.
I agree whole fully on this
this for tourist too ??
Ok hear me out, a 180 second long "Japanese culture for dummies" played on inbound airplanes prior to departure wouldn't hurt, most airlines already show a safety video anyway. Just go over basic stuff like
I am fine with this, if there is an option to test out lol
Not all people come here to stay and requirement for language skills at visa application even before entry is too much,, not to mention classes rather than test scores naturally provide a breeding ground for corruption. So I think it should be done this way:
Languages skills are not need for initial visa applications, and only for those which lead to eventual naturalization or permanent residency at annual renewals with proof of increased proficiency every year finally reaching to near-par level after which permanent status shall be granted. Lags will delay this progress, and failure after a grace period equals to disinterest in settling just like falling short of the required time in the country in the US for example.
JLPT every year. Great idea.