Nicolae Ceaușescu was also able to gather a large crowd of loyalists at the end of his reign. A dictator will always have supporters and its a very dangerous time for anyone celebrating openly considering armed Colectivos are roaming the streets. Are you more upset that Maduro is gone or the fact it was illegal? The left shouldn't support a corrupt murdering dictator just because he has red curtains.
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If they actually had a proper succession plan and returned Venezuela into a functioning democracy, this would have been a totally acceptable price to pay. I don't think the problem here is "too many casualties" so much as it is no cooperation with international allies or regional neighbors, no Congressional approval, no succession plan.
The people downvoting this must live in the realm of dreams and faeries where you can get a brutal, decade+ long dictatorship to end by asking nicely. Do you think the Ukrainians wouldn't trade 10 civilian casualties for the end of the Putin regime? Would the Irish not have traded 10 civilian casualties for the end of British colonialism?
Would you accept the death of your spouse/partner, your child, your mother or your father as "a totally acceptable price to pay"? Each one of those civilians had a family, they're not just numbers.
I'm from Brazil and we had to pay a lot more than 10 civilian deaths to overthrow a brutal right wing dictatorship. We accepted it, it had to be done, and the country is better for it. My grandfather was exiled as a political prisoner, and I have cousins who were tortured. They fought for what was right and paid the price-along with thousands of others, the majority of which had no choice. An airstrike and 100 deaths would've been a dream to us.
This is not analogous to what happened in Venezuela at all, where an autocratic Yankee imperialist kidnapped the president and his wife, and killed more than 100 people including civilians in the process. It was an open act of banditry to gain a US monopoly on Venezuelan oil. They haven't even tried to hide this fact.
I've got Brazilian family, I know the brutality of the military dictatorship well. You know as well as I do that resistance to the dictatorship was led by internal freedom fighters, not from external Yankee forces kidnapping heads of state. And of course the state cracked down and committed horrific atrocities, massacres, torture, "disappearances", and so on.
The point is that a Brazilian problem was solved by the Brazilian people by rising up and putting so much pressure on the dictatorship using all available means, including mass protests and demonstrations, as well as armed guerrilla campaigns. The dictatorship collapsed without international interference.
And I agree with that. I condemn what the USA did. It will not lead to the end of the Maduro regime. All I am saying is that the casualties aren't what makes it condemnable, it's everything else. If there was a legitimate international coalition, coordinating with local opposition movements, that toppled the Maduro regime, and the only cost was 10 civilian casualties, it would have been a tremendous success. My only point is that arguing against what happened on the basis of casualties is just not a good argument, imho.
Yeah, that was the name of the game back then. But they managed to avoid the wave of coups that hit the rest of Latin America and had a pretty good couple of decades until the oil price collapse. It's a real shame things turned out the way they did, I wish we could have had a vibrant Venezuelan democracy today
By being a vassal the US. That's just survival under the thumb. There can never be democracy in that situation. I mean it should be plainly obvious that the US is the enemy of and cause of much of the misery in south and central America. None of their actions should be cheered on, absolutely none of them.
I don't think it's fair to call 1960s Venezuela a US vassal. It doesn't go that far. That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. They weren't a US vassal any more than Ireland is today, and Ireland is still a democracy.
Democracy isn't a binary thing. It's the US and it's corporations that do limit our democracy. That should be especially obvious these days but it's always been going on.
Maduro was an asshole but even leaving the breach of international law aside, Maduro's kidnapping is of little benefit to the Venezuelans as Trump is sidelining Venezuela's democratic opposition, maintaining Maduro's tyrannical regime (with a different figurehead) and ensuring US control of Venezuelan oil.
In my opinion the positive factor that a dictator was ousted is heavily outweighed by the negative factor that Trump successfully performed an illegal invasion on foreign soil.
Said illegal invasion now putting forward future prospects to US aggression, such as Greenland.
Ousted and replaced by who? His VP. What exactly has been dismantled here? It could not be anymore supericial if it tried. The leadership is intact. The party is still there. No elections in the near future due to the constitutional crisis of the US's violent abduction. Over 80 people killed including civilians, and now the US is publicly announcing resource colonialism to redirect oil towards their own economy.
Yeah, it's the same party that rigged the 2024 election in power and the only thing that's changed is that now the president has to hand over oil to US companies or be abducted.
It pains me that he's not wrong with this. I feel frustrated that the left parties are completely overlooking the regime that was in place in Venezuela all because it was the socialist party in government.
There is nothing to be celebrated, this has nothing to do with making the lives of the average Venezuelan better, freedom or democracy, listen to Vance's own words, it's about control and access to the natural resources of Venezuela, and control of what he terms it's neighbourhood, exactly why Russia went into Ukraine, exactly what the US accuses China and Iran of, trying to control their neighbourhoods. It's hypocrisy, it's 19th century colonialism, it's blackmail, it's theft, it's coercion, it's the US with the mask off.
This is true but I guess it comes down to if you're gonna rule out intervention how do we handle Maduro's, Putins etc? Germany and the EU tried to make friendly with Putin. It didn't work. The US tried to antagonise and threaten Maduro which he seemed to only take somewhat seriously. Sanctions are fine but deeply flawed. It feels like we're messing a mechanism.
The death toll of Maduro's kidnapping is up from 40 to over 100. More than 10 civilian casualties are counted among the dead: https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/08/world/video/venezuela-attack-death-toll-official-diosdado-cabello-mary-mena-digvid
That comes under "the way it happened"
With most of them being a praetorian guard of Cuban mercenaries, because the dictator couldn't even trust his own people.
Yeah, nobody in Venezuela supports Maduro.
Except all these people: https://www.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/s/n2YPGvOTyr
That video is from 2024.
https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/fact-check/story/fact-check-old-videos-viral-as-celebrations-after-maduro-capture-in-venezuela-2846867-2026-01-05
How about these ones? https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTLipySilzd/?igsh=MWwxaDlzZjRvZjhsMw==
Nicolae Ceaușescu was also able to gather a large crowd of loyalists at the end of his reign. A dictator will always have supporters and its a very dangerous time for anyone celebrating openly considering armed Colectivos are roaming the streets. Are you more upset that Maduro is gone or the fact it was illegal? The left shouldn't support a corrupt murdering dictator just because he has red curtains.
Have you counted the 25% of venezuela's population exiled?
You should be familiar with that percentage. It's the same as the irish famine emigration one.
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[removed]
This comment / post was removed because it violates the following sub rule:
[R3] Argue in Good Faith
Everyone is here of their own volition to discuss the topic of Irish Politics. People are not here to be caught in ruthless vendetta’s of spiraling fallacies and bad faith arguments.
State your intent clearly, provide evidence to the point you want to make and engage with others arguments in much the same manner.
Trolling, Baiting, Flaming, etc are not allowed.
Excessive debate etiquette in place of an argument will be considered bad faith.
Transparent Agenda Spamming i.e. consistently posting exclusively about the same topic, will also fall under this rule.
This comment / post was removed because it violates the following sub rule:
[R3] Argue in Good Faith
Everyone is here of their own volition to discuss the topic of Irish Politics. People are not here to be caught in ruthless vendetta’s of spiraling fallacies and bad faith arguments.
State your intent clearly, provide evidence to the point you want to make and engage with others arguments in much the same manner.
Trolling, Baiting, Flaming, etc are not allowed.
Excessive debate etiquette in place of an argument will be considered bad faith.
Transparent Agenda Spamming i.e. consistently posting exclusively about the same topic, will also fall under this rule.
If they actually had a proper succession plan and returned Venezuela into a functioning democracy, this would have been a totally acceptable price to pay. I don't think the problem here is "too many casualties" so much as it is no cooperation with international allies or regional neighbors, no Congressional approval, no succession plan.
The people downvoting this must live in the realm of dreams and faeries where you can get a brutal, decade+ long dictatorship to end by asking nicely. Do you think the Ukrainians wouldn't trade 10 civilian casualties for the end of the Putin regime? Would the Irish not have traded 10 civilian casualties for the end of British colonialism?
Would you accept the death of your spouse/partner, your child, your mother or your father as "a totally acceptable price to pay"? Each one of those civilians had a family, they're not just numbers.
Ghouls they are. They genuinely think the problem is a lack of decorum.
I'm from Brazil and we had to pay a lot more than 10 civilian deaths to overthrow a brutal right wing dictatorship. We accepted it, it had to be done, and the country is better for it. My grandfather was exiled as a political prisoner, and I have cousins who were tortured. They fought for what was right and paid the price-along with thousands of others, the majority of which had no choice. An airstrike and 100 deaths would've been a dream to us.
This is not analogous to what happened in Venezuela at all, where an autocratic Yankee imperialist kidnapped the president and his wife, and killed more than 100 people including civilians in the process. It was an open act of banditry to gain a US monopoly on Venezuelan oil. They haven't even tried to hide this fact.
I've got Brazilian family, I know the brutality of the military dictatorship well. You know as well as I do that resistance to the dictatorship was led by internal freedom fighters, not from external Yankee forces kidnapping heads of state. And of course the state cracked down and committed horrific atrocities, massacres, torture, "disappearances", and so on.
The point is that a Brazilian problem was solved by the Brazilian people by rising up and putting so much pressure on the dictatorship using all available means, including mass protests and demonstrations, as well as armed guerrilla campaigns. The dictatorship collapsed without international interference.
It just isn't an analogous situation.
And I agree with that. I condemn what the USA did. It will not lead to the end of the Maduro regime. All I am saying is that the casualties aren't what makes it condemnable, it's everything else. If there was a legitimate international coalition, coordinating with local opposition movements, that toppled the Maduro regime, and the only cost was 10 civilian casualties, it would have been a tremendous success. My only point is that arguing against what happened on the basis of casualties is just not a good argument, imho.
Returned? Like under Chavez or something?
They had a pretty stable democracy (for Latin American standards) in the 60s and 70s
I presume they must have been playing ball with the US or it'd all be military coups and fascist death squads.
Yeah, that was the name of the game back then. But they managed to avoid the wave of coups that hit the rest of Latin America and had a pretty good couple of decades until the oil price collapse. It's a real shame things turned out the way they did, I wish we could have had a vibrant Venezuelan democracy today
By being a vassal the US. That's just survival under the thumb. There can never be democracy in that situation. I mean it should be plainly obvious that the US is the enemy of and cause of much of the misery in south and central America. None of their actions should be cheered on, absolutely none of them.
I don't think it's fair to call 1960s Venezuela a US vassal. It doesn't go that far. That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. They weren't a US vassal any more than Ireland is today, and Ireland is still a democracy.
Democracy isn't a binary thing. It's the US and it's corporations that do limit our democracy. That should be especially obvious these days but it's always been going on.
Well that's disturbing.
What was it that Stalin was supposed to have said? You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
Maduro was an asshole but even leaving the breach of international law aside, Maduro's kidnapping is of little benefit to the Venezuelans as Trump is sidelining Venezuela's democratic opposition, maintaining Maduro's tyrannical regime (with a different figurehead) and ensuring US control of Venezuelan oil.
It's a revolting example of imperialism.
In my opinion the positive factor that a dictator was ousted is heavily outweighed by the negative factor that Trump successfully performed an illegal invasion on foreign soil.
Said illegal invasion now putting forward future prospects to US aggression, such as Greenland.
But Leo’s not wrong
Ousted and replaced by who? His VP. What exactly has been dismantled here? It could not be anymore supericial if it tried. The leadership is intact. The party is still there. No elections in the near future due to the constitutional crisis of the US's violent abduction. Over 80 people killed including civilians, and now the US is publicly announcing resource colonialism to redirect oil towards their own economy.
Yeah, it's the same party that rigged the 2024 election in power and the only thing that's changed is that now the president has to hand over oil to US companies or be abducted.
you’re really not doing much for the “westerners don’t care about fascism until it affects them” trope.
It pains me that he's not wrong with this. I feel frustrated that the left parties are completely overlooking the regime that was in place in Venezuela all because it was the socialist party in government.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTQk0GgkZKh/?igsh=MTl0cmNicjUzejdiYQ==
There is nothing to be celebrated, this has nothing to do with making the lives of the average Venezuelan better, freedom or democracy, listen to Vance's own words, it's about control and access to the natural resources of Venezuela, and control of what he terms it's neighbourhood, exactly why Russia went into Ukraine, exactly what the US accuses China and Iran of, trying to control their neighbourhoods. It's hypocrisy, it's 19th century colonialism, it's blackmail, it's theft, it's coercion, it's the US with the mask off.
The end of Varadkar was welcome. The way he keeps popping up is not.
I mean this kind of international actions is why the left uses the same means as Maduro
Obvious Varadkar is onto something again.
i mean varadkar is correct
Venezuela is now freeing political prisoners.
https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/08/americas/venezuela-to-release-prisoners-in-peace-gesture-latam-intl
Wonder if he does welcome that, and what would be his alternative.
This is the correct take on the matter although I’m not sure how Maduro would’ve been ousted otherwise so I think it’s fine
The death toll from the international kidnapping is up to over 100 now. See: https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/08/world/video/venezuela-attack-death-toll-official-diosdado-cabello-mary-mena-digvid
Probably shouldn't be saying this is fine.
This is true but I guess it comes down to if you're gonna rule out intervention how do we handle Maduro's, Putins etc? Germany and the EU tried to make friendly with Putin. It didn't work. The US tried to antagonise and threaten Maduro which he seemed to only take somewhat seriously. Sanctions are fine but deeply flawed. It feels like we're messing a mechanism.