Recently turned 18 with US and Irish citizenship, lived in Ireland most of my life, only having lived in the US for maybe 2 years and having it through my father who I’m not in contact with anymore and I dont have access to my passport.
I dont plan to live in the US and dont want to hold my citizenship anymore, but looking through the process is a headache and wondering if anyone else in a similar situation has any advice.
Edit: Mainly for tax reasons and to reduce headache
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You are 18, who knows what the future holds for you, Ireland and the US. When I was 18, we were all trying to get Donnelly visas to be able to work in the States, land of opportunity etc but now… things change, keep your options open. For example, you might meet someone in the future and living in the States might make sense.
Definitely agree about keeping options open and also that 18 is a bit young to make this kind of decision.
But just for people here who might not know, the OP has a valid point that US citizenship also comes with material disadvantages when living in another country.
For example related to the US rules for citizenship-based taxation of worldwide assets and income causing tax reporting requirements and possible tax liabilities in the US for assets/income in your actual country of residence (or elsewhere in the world).
And also related to the fact that the US has had pretty aggressive extraterritorial financial regulation for a while, which means being a US citizens can restrict access to certain financial products and institutions outside the US, because some financial services providers don't want the bureaucratic headache and legal risk of having US-citizens as customers.
It's always handy to have a second passport but if you don't want it then just don't bother getting it replaced. Renouncing citizenship imo would be more hassle than it's worth. So unless you are 100% sure your life would be better after renouncing I wouldn't bother. Just go about your life as an Irish citizen and forget about the US citizenship. Wouldn't even worry about doing your US taxes or any of that since you probably don't even have a social security number. Especially if you don't plan on living back there. The IRS are not going to chase you of they don't know about you.
This is wrong - being a citizen of the USA incurs an income tax no matter where you live in the world.
Not true. You only incur taxes if the amount of tax you are paying abroad is less than the federal income tax. In that case you have to make up the difference. Legally you are suppose to file your taxes every year but for most people the amount you owe to the IRS will be zero.
But OP doesn't have a social security number, has never paid taxes in the US before, and doesn't plan on going there to live so the IRS won't know anything about them. They can't chase someone they don't know about. So legally yes OP should file taxes and pay zero every year but they would need to apply for a social security number first through the US embassy in Ireland and it would be a bunch of pain for no reward and essentially zero risk of consequences if they don't do that.
This is poor advice. There is absolutely risk.
There’s a formal process to renouncing your citizenship, you can’t just send them a letter and say ‘hey, I don’t want this citizenship anymore’ and that be the end of it.
My cousin renounced his US citizenship two years ago, and the IRS back taxed his unpaid income taxes and demanded he pay it before they would let him renounce, they asked for mountains of evidence. The end figure of back tax owed was close to a hundred grand, but luckily he had been paying his taxes for some years (but not all of them) and not taking his tax credits which he used to offset some of the balance.
Yeah tbh people are chiming in about tax situations that developed for middle aged people. They aren't reasons for an 18 year old to renounce his citizenship immediately because it'll likely be at least 10 years before he gets anywhere close to generating anything taxable in the US
He should just keep and see later
Makes no sense at all to do it now
Hence my advice to OP was just say nothing and don't bother renouncing. Don't give the IRS any reason to look into you.
It doesn't. Im a dual citizen and have never worked or filed in US, ever. Neither have my 4 siblings who are also dual citizens. I have a social security number and all.
Stop talking shite.
Why wouldn't they have a social security number?
Exactly. If they were born in the States and the birth cert was registered they have a social security number.
Not necessarily true, but I get where you’re coming from. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/25/british-citizens-born-in-us-risk-having-uk-bank-accounts-frozen
Yeah I wouldn't be telling my bank I was a US citizen. Only asking for trouble.
Don't US citizens have to file taxes in the US yearly regardless of where you live? You are always a tax resident of the US when you hold their citizenship.
WTF that sucks!
Yes but if you don't have a social security number and you've never paid taxes there before then the IRS don't even know about you. You if aren't living there and don't plan on going there, how are they going to find you or enforce any of it?
Whenever you finally have to do something and the bank cops it they'll ask records. And if you haven't done any, it will just accumulate for you to do.
My mother's friend had to reconcile US taxes for like 40 years after the AIB made her. She owed nothing, but still had to be filed.
Like what? How would they ever find out OP is a US citizen unless they told them?
Did your mother's friend have a social security number? Had they been working and paying taxes in the US before they came to Ireland and had to present bank statements or tax records to the bank when applying for a mortgage or something? Because none of that would be the case for OP.
If you are born in the US you are automatically a citizen. Your drivers license or passport, the most common ID you’d show when say opening a bank account, have your country of birth there. Not that hard to figure out from there.
OP doesn't have a US passport, only an Irish one. Read the post again maybe.
If they are born in the US, their Irish passport will say Place Of Birth: Some place in the US. Same as their Irish driving license.
I don't know the full story, I can ask her tomorrow - you know it may actually have been something to do with an inheritance from someone who passed away in the states.
Anyway, when it came down to it once they realized she was a US citizen she had to file all taxes back as far as being 18. She was 58 at the time so 40 years of filings had to be completed. She just hired an accountant to sort it.
My uncle passed away few years back & had lived in California majority of his adult life and my father who never worked anywhere besides Ireland had to get a social security number in order to receive the funds now that I think of it. He's not a US citizen.
Don’t know why she had to do that, but maybe the process was different back then.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/streamlined-filing-compliance-procedures
Basically you’re required to file for the 3 most recent years of your delinquent filing (and 5 for FinCEN I think). You basically do this procedure and they call it “evens”.
If you open a bank account with a passport, it'll have "place of birth: USA" written on it. I'm not sure what other forms of ID they accept where you could avoid letting them know that.
Only if you were born in the US. OP doesn't say where they were born.
Yes, but most people in a similar situation would have US citizenship through birth so it's not an option for most.
Not telling them is probably asking for even more trouble in the long term (especially if they ask and you actively lie).
Just stick with banks which are OK with having US citizens as customers rather then pretending not to be one.
Would just ignoring it have any impacts on investing?
When you get shares through US trading platforms, you have to fill out forms like the W8-BEN where you will need to specify whether you’re a US citizen or not.
It can get real ballachey real quickly if you don’t do it properly.
Bit late for that, I already signed just for Irish
If you're living here in Ireland, you wont have any real impact on your taxes with regards investing.
On any Capital Gains you will earn from investing, the only portion that would be taxable is the excess that hasn't been taxed here. Because our investment taxes are so punitive there's nothing left that could be owed to the US.
The most common and biggest issue that occurs here is the sale of the personal home, because it's exempt from tax here, then that would cause issue. Another example is it causes issues with ISAs in the UK, because they are tax free, but we don't have anything like that here.
You'd be grand with investing though, the Irish Government will mop all that tax money up for sure!
OP this isn't true at all. It's extremely difficult to avoid US taxation if you're US citizen and all European based (UCITS etc) are considered a form of tax evasion (PFIC) and taxed to high heaven. Do not follow this advice! see https://www.reddit.com/r/USExpatTaxes/ seach for PFIC
Read this basically the same if you're based in Ireland: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investing_from_the_UK_for_US_citizens_and_US_permanent_residents
Here's the money quote:
Alr thanks
As someone who has dual citizenship with the US and lived 29 of my 36 years Ireland (family moved here when I was 5 and then I moved back to America for 2 years through work when I was 29), I would highly recommend holding on to it.
I have no intention of stepping foot back into the country while Trump is in the White House but you never know when you might want to go there again even just for a holiday. The American passport makes life a lot easier. I got a great opportunity to move NYC for a couple of years through work and the passport made it so much handier.
Can I ask why you want to get rid of it?
I assume the bloody taxes
I’ve never filed taxes in America in my life. As someone stated below, there are double taxation treaties. Technically I’m still supposed to file but the truth is they don’t want a bunch of Nil returns anyway.
Yes I understand there is the double taxation treaties. But legally as an American citizen, whether you live there or not you are required to file taxes yearly.
I’m very much aware of that, I said the same thing. What I’m saying is as a 36 year old American citizen living in ireland, I’ve never once filed. Nor have my siblings. I even lived in NYC for 2 years, have an American bank account and never had any hassle.
Hopefully it doesnt come back to bite you
It’s defo not the taxes
The taxes and I have no real connection of going there and im fine with just using my irish passport if I go on holiday there possibly
The tax thing is a non-issue technically you're meant to file but unless you're a millionaire you don't owe them anything and they don't really expect filings from people not born/resident in the US even if they hold citizenship.
I am fairly sure that it's illegal to enter the US on a non US passport if you hold a US passport. Just FYI
Idk if its illegal but they only got angry when my mam tried to use her irish but let her in anyway
I would really hold on to it for now. Your life will change an incredible amount of the next few years. You never know what reason or opportunity you could end up needing it for. Always handy having two aswell.
Really is no effort to hold onto till your mid twenties at least and then you can see. But you could just forget about and have it forever and it would make no difference if you're never going back. No real reason or benefit in doing this now, pretty much only cons
EDIT: to add on the taxation piece, a sibling was going to renounce his last year but then Trump announced that he wanted to get rid of taxation of citizens abroad. It causes a lot of paper work and admin for not much revenue.
Whether he does what he says or not is questionable but even outside of him there's been a lot of movement on the issue politicaly in the last few years. They decided to hold off renouncing then for a few years to see what happens.
You have to pay thousands to renounce. Probably better off keeping it.
I’m very surprised reading these comments. I have a similar situation with my wife being a U.S. citizen. If you don’t intend on living in the U.S. one day I would definitely renounce. It’s a headache when it comes to investing and likely inheritance. I would renounce if I were you.
We’ll all be US citizens soon enough anyway
Absolutely don't renounce citizenship. You're absolutely crazy to do that.
I don't blame you wanting to renounce it. However, I have a friend that did this and was subsequently refused entry to the US while trying to visit family. They take it v personally it seems! So don't assume you'll still be able to holiday there in the future
Don't do anything stupid because of Internet culture wars. People literally pay hundreds of thousands for that passport
I meant to include that I wanted to renounce it mainly for taxes
As a fellow dual citizen who has thought the same over the years I’d be curious to hear about the experience. A friend looked into it and said it seemed complicated, annoying, and expensive. Also to the best of my knowledge unfortunately you’d probably still be considered liable to filing with the IRS. Technically speaking if you are even the child of a US citizen, they expect you to file
There's really no tax burden for a standard PAYE worker.
Source: also dual citizen.
Strongly recommend you reconsider. Even for working and living in other countries US citizenship can be useful.
I renounced my American citizenship a few years ago, after AIB told me I had to provide them with my social security number & I was unable to open up any more accounts with them. Banks ask for your place of birth, so assume you're American if you're born there, unless you can prove otherwise. You also legally have to complete tax returns to the US & give them details of all your bank accounts & investments/ other assets, even if you don't owe them any tax. I had to do 5 years of tax returns, which were a pain, but you can do them yourself with help from the Internet & I also phoned up their helpline. Then arrange to go to the embassy in Dublin for the renouncing. And pay them loads of money, it's not cheap. You also cannot say you are renouncing for tax reasons. You can then give a copy of the certificate to the banks & they stop badgering you. I'm glad I did it, trying to get one over banks & tax authorities is never a good idea.
Keep that US passport you would be insane to give it up
Do you have to pay us taxes forever?
Whilst not a personal finance topic, you'd be a moron to give up (if it's even possible) your America citizenship.
Edit: OP has just turned 18. There might come a time in their life where all their mates are going on a j1 to the US and OP could go without needing a visa. Or an employment opportunity won't need a company sponsor.
Wait a good few years to make an informed decision as opposed to making a heart based decision now without realising the ramifications of said decision.
Well the it's taxes American citizens who live and work in other countries. It's a club that hates losing members
You have to do a filing but most if not all your income, up to 130k usd is exempt from US tax, if working in a country with a dta, e.g. Ireland
There’s a deal between Ireland and the US. We don’t double pay unless you make over 100k or something like that. We just have to file every year. And renouncing costs almost 3K with tons of paperwork.
Its up to 130k usd, the deal is largely the double taxation agreement between Ireland and the US that applies to individuals and corporations - its the primary reason for so many American corporations setting up shop here (they pay low corporation tax here and because they've paid tax here on income registered to Ireland, they don't pay tax to the US treasury when they send that income "home".
I figured it applied to businesses but didn't know American citizens got something similar.
I’ve lived all my life with 2, one being the US and the other being Venezuela. I wouldn’t give up my US citizenship. I did give up my Venezuelan for my Irish. Always keep your options open is my motto. I do have to file my US taxes but don’t have to pay anything bc I pay taxes here.
Both Venezuela and Ireland allow dual citizenship, so why did you give up Venezuelan citizenship?
I have US citizenship too. I didn’t technically renounce it, I just can’t get my passport renewed anywhere.
Keep it for now lad. I’m only back from living in the States - I’d kill for that passport, even though I had no desire to go to the US when I was younger. You’ll kick yourself later on for not keeping it - there’s cities there where you can make bank and have very cheap rent.
OP might literally have to, registration for the draft (conscription) is a requirement for males.
What a load of rubbish. They can just go home to Ireland at any time, so that is meaningless.
lol don’t think he’ll have trouble dodging the draft if they end up bringing it back
If you renounce US citizenship you may find it more difficult to visit the US than the typical Irish citizen
That’s a feature, not a bug right now.
Man, you’re young. Yes we are going through a chaotic time, but a US passport is always good to have. The benefits of the citizenship long term outweigh the tax stuff. Unless you are high income/ net worth, it’s not a big deal. I spend like 1 hour per year doing my US tax return from Germany for which I never owe anything or get anything back. Unless you are pulling in over like 130k, you won’t owe anything (foreign earned income exclusion - IRS). I’d keep it in your back pocket.
It's nonsenselical to renounce it???
Trump derangement syndrome is very strong over here, government and media propaganda is relentless
OK Johnny bunchanumbers.
As a dual citizen, do NOT renounce it. When I was 18 I didn’t see the point in having it either until I finished college and realized how hard it was to live in Ireland as a younger person. You’ve your whole life ahead of you, just because the US is a shit show now, doesn’t mean it will be forever. Just put it in the drawer and forget about it for a while if it’s bothering you that much.
Also, I’ve never ever heard of anyone having to pay US taxes if they have dual citizenship. All my siblings live in Ireland but have the US passport and have never had to do US taxes. I think the US government are more concerned with billionaire dual citizens than just the average 18 year old lol
By law, all US citizens even non-residents have to file taxes. My US friends in Ireland even on low salaries have to do it.
Have to file but they don’t have to actually pay anything
That is exactly what I said. They have to file.
I’ve never heard of that actually being enforced. My own mother is a US citizen but has been living in Ireland for the last 30 years, never once has she had to file or even been asked to.
Just seems silly to renounce citizenship for a problem that may never even happen.
Just because your mother never got audited doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Filing taxes is easy, no point in not doing it, especially if you aren’t making enough to pay taxes back.
All my family except my Dad have dual citizenship too and have never filed taxes while living here, this is news to me. Are we gonna get in some kind of trouble eventually or something? We visit all the time and never get trouble going over. Used to spend the summers working there as teens too and were never told to file anything.
Filing taxes is the biggest pain each year but other than that, no harm keeping it.
Dual citizens need to file taxes and keep the US passport current which means a visit to embassy every 10 years (dual nationals visiting US must enter on their US passport). Personally I’d wait a few years before I made a decision. You may not owe anything/much on taxes for a few years but once you start earning, there could be an exit tax (based on your wealth) to pay when giving up citizenship so this might be a better time to review your options.
A) he doesn't have his US passport. B) can you provide some proof on needing to maintain his US passport. C) he would have to be worth over $2.8 million.
Are you replying to me or meaning to reply to OP?
Apologies meant to reply directly to OP
No worries
Get rid of it. USA is about to torch the world.
Get out of your echo chamber for a bit mate. “Orange man bad” isn’t a well thought through belief system to base long term life choices on
Get a grip mate
Exactly! People so brain washed by the endless propaganda they see that they have zero grip on reality any more! Get a grip on reality OP