And the hero of the Argentine navy? William Brown from Foxford, Mayo. Liberator of Chile? Bernardo O'Higgins.
Liberator of south America, Señor Simon Bolívar, had as one of his best generals a cork lad named Daniel Florence O'Leary.
Bolivar had a few other Irish guys under him. There's a hugely fascinating history of Irish people and their influence in south America. North America obviously as well but we did very, very well down south
I think Irishmen were also significant in the establishment of the Ecudorian (Thomas Charles Wright of Louth) and Uruguayan (Peter Campbell from Tipp) navies.
Indeed they were. In my travels in south America it was awesome to discover all these links and how aware the people were. If I had one wish it would be to be able to live and work a comfortable life in SA. Amazing place
His father had Lynch as one of his surnames, but I believe the Irish ancestor who brought the name Lynch with him was further back than grandfather. I have seen him described as Che's great-great-great-grandfather.
During the Napoleonic wars Ireland made up about 30 percent ish of the population of what was the UK at the time. About 4-5m here vs about 11m for Britain.
The famine and subsequent history really set back our population growth
I have read quite a bit on this area. Those who fought in that war, essentially passed the confidence/baton/funds for the 1916 rising and war of independence. I genuinely think our efforts to get rid of the brits mightnt have happened. Quite a lot of these Irish in the US were running from the british or devastating effects from brits. Meagher was a revolutionary in the young irelanders, sent to australia, escaped to US, rallied the irish together there and became a hero of the civil war (all while drunk). It was their success, that rallied the irish to come back and make links with home. He also made the Irish flag I believe. It's not to be shrugged off as another US claim to being Irish. Disclaimer I'm from ireland, and not from the US. I couldn't find a person who part of the young irelanders, and 1916, but the baton was passed in the US for sure.
One of those boys was James Doran. His parents were Irish immigrants, he had enlisted to be able to provide for his widowed mother. He was killed at Gettysburg. He was 24. I’m not from Ireland either I’m from western New York myself. Between Rochester and Buffalo.
My ancestors left donegal, got to NYC, conscripted in the Union and fought in the war. After the war they settled in Northeast Pennsylvania as coal miners but then a couple generations later a bunch went back to Ireland and are still there. My specific line comes from the ones that were already conscripted into WWI service.
yeah but unless they did some sweet home alabama they probably brought some other peoples with them too - i wonder who they added to the genetics of Ireland.
Honestly, probably not anything too crazy, especially given the time. They most likely would’ve married other Irish, Scotch-Irish/Ulster Scots, and Scots. Immigrant populations rarely left their circles.
Fair point. Most irish arrived in new york or canada i think. Some i guess found there way into the confederate. I dont think a kerryman would have had a strong option of eather side to be honest
What I find pretty fascinating is that 60% of Irish men of fighting age enlisted for the union, roughly 600,000 men total. Thats about 1 in 6 Irish people in America enlisting. And the 200,000 is just the first generation Irish who were born in Ireland. This made Irish people BY FAR the highest rate of service by ethnic background per capita.
It's also worth noting that for the confederate side, it was literally 10 times fewer, although there were also fewer Irish in the South, so if I'm being cynical, it was just a job to many of them, but still fascinating.
There was German regiments in the Union army
But they didn’t get as much fame.
And a lot of regiments who served with them didn’t trust them because they gave all their orders and commands in German. But they still fought hard regardless.
I think that there were conscripted off the boat. No option. Press ganged. Must have been somthing coming from a village farm in north ferry to the killing fields of the civil war. Many never made it but a short while. Hopefully many made it through also. I guess some of my family could have been there given the numbers from kerry limerick.
To be fair many of them did enlist voluntarily. A sizeable number of Young Irelanders and Fenians escaping imprisonment in the 1840s–60s went to the US and joined up as well.
Not all were drafted. For example Daniel Mahoney, he was a volunteer in the 69th. He was killed at Gettysburg. He fought at Antietam and Fredericksburg as well.
The three core regiments of the Irish Brigade- the 63rd, 69th, and and 88th New York Infantry- were all volunteers who fought before the draft was instituted and they stuck around for the whole war (except for the casualties). The other regiments attached to them from Pennsylvania and (I think) Massachusetts were either native born yankees who didn't like being shackled to Irish catholics or were Irish immigrants from other enclaves than New York.
I think they had a single round of recruiting after sustaining mass casualties from the old Irish enclaves in New York before Gettysburg chopped them to pieces again.
Either way, very few Irish New Yorkers got drafted, they were either volunteers or draft dodging fiercely.
My great-great-grandfather emigrated from Cork to Boston just as the war was breaking out. When he arrived and realized that enlisting was basically his only option, he got back on a boat to Ireland lol.
He eventually did emigrate to New York many years after the war, but in the meantime my great-great-grandmother and great-grandfather came into the picture. It’s funny to think that if he hadn’t gone back to Ireland instead of enlisting, I might not be here today.
Yup, that’s pretty much how my websites got here. Left donegal, landed in NY, conscripted to fight, then settled down for the even more strenuous job of coal mining in northeast Pennsylvania. Tough SOBs
Maybe the 23rd Illinois regiment had a nickname of 'The Irish Brigade' (which seems odd as it was a regiment, not a brigade), but 'The Irish Brigade' that most would think about when talking about the US civil war would be that formed by Thomas Meaghar (who was a pretty interesting charachter and introduced the modern Irish tricolour). That Brigade consisted of New York, Massachusetts and Pennsylvanian regiments and was famous for getting shred to bits at Fredericksburg. I also imagine that it would have a much higher number of Irish born recruits, being raised in New York, Boston and Philidelphia on the east coast of the US than a regiment raised in Illinois.
There was the 69th Pennsylvania which was also an Irish regiment. They fought hard at Gettysburg at Picketts charge. And
The 69th New York fought at Gettysburg as well in the wheat field.
Yeah, the 69th New York was one of the regiments that was part of the Irish Brigade (the one founded by Meaghar). At the time a Brigade was made up of around 3-5 regiments. I don't think the 23rd Illinois Regiment was ever part of the Irish Brigade but I could be wrong. Regiments and other units would often get nicknames though, so maybe they were given it as a nickname.
This. One of my great, great, great uncles was Colonel Patrick Kelly (from Castle Hackett near Tuam) of the 88th NY who commanded the Irish brigade at Gettysburg - only to die after being shot between the eyes as he advanced on the enemy position.
Interesting point. They learned english quick in base camp. Those who didn't know english soon learned id say. Wouldn't have taken too long. They would have been Welsh polish etc with them in this also no doubt.
There was one story I remember
19 year old franz benda was from the Czech Republic near Prague. He enlisted in a mostly German regiment but thankfully for him the Prague area were he was born spoke German as well as Czech. He was shot in the hip and died of his wounds.
Meaghar fought for the Union. His co revolutionary John Mitchell was the one who was on Confederates side. His Son would have fought against Meagher at one battle.
Mitchel was a racist who defended slavery, so his fighting for the Confederates wasn't just happenstance, unfortunately. Bit disappointing considering he was one of the most virulent Young Irelanders and was heavily critical of the second-class citizen treatment Irish people got at that time under the British government.
The most famous Irish regiment came from my home state of New York. The 69th N.Y. infantry
they are actually still around in the New York national guard
They almost got wiped out at one point. At Antietam they had 196 out of 317 men be killed or wounded. They were badasses and even the confederates respected their tenacity.
They were on both sides. At the battle of Fredericksburg they literally fought each other.
The 69th N.Y. charged a stone wall held by a regiment from Georgia that flew an Irish harp flag.
I may hate the confederates and my own family fought in the Union army. But the Irish who served on both sides were badasses and earned their reputations as hard fighters
Yeah but it's just a bit bizarre, it'd be like someone going.. ''now do a map for how many brits served in the SS'', or whatever, it has absolutely nothing to do with what the map is displaying and it comes off as you trying to put us down, again. you seem to love to put us down. bizzarely considering you made our country your home.
No but what you're doing here is quite obvious? we know history is nuanced but this map is clearly about the union. and yet your only takeaway.., is in effect.. ''oh, don't forget you had people fighting for the BAD guys to preserve slavery lolol''..!
You understand nuance, but your explanation in why I might add context to the title of this post is: why do you hate Ireland. I'd be more open to engaging if it wasn't basically a school-ground argument.
I don't think you hate Ireland, you live here. i said you seem to like to put us down. I've seen your comments in regards to Haughey which came across as you borderline justifying British soldiers being paranoid wrecks pointing weapons into Irish civilians faces on Irish boats in Irish waters in Irish counties (It was in Louth.) Whatever Haughey was responsible for in the years prior did not justify what happened and you were bang out of order by bringing it up. That's not nuance. Not really.
So after seeing that, and reading you instantly go.. ''ok - now do'', which by the way comes across so poorly almost like you're being smug, yeah. I might assume you're trying to put us in our place again, via ''nuance''.
You can think its bang out of order all you want, it doesn't mean what I highlighted wasn't true (that Haughey was a hypocrite). I'll remind you the Omagh bombing was 8 years after Haughey yacht was boarded - lets compare Royal Marines aiming guns and swearing at the captain in disputed waters vs the outcome of that bombing. Reflect on that.
On this post, if you only want to reflect on the Irish contigent of the Union army that's your choice, if you're saying any mention of their involvement in the Confederacy is not connected to the topic of Irish peoples involvement in the American Civil War - then that's willful ignorance (in my opinion).
Hows this for smug, but entirely accurate: ""Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - Santayana.
Why would anyone need that pointed out? I've seen you post incredibly dumb comments, on multiple occasions, where you feel the need to point something out that is already so obvious. You seem to think it's some sort of gotcha! Or you just learned it yourself and think nobody else knows.
Do you think Irish people are 1 homogenous group who all believe in the same things and act the same way? Bizarre.
For reasons obvious given the topic of the war, it was the North that was really hurting for labor and much more inviting to immigrants than the south, who didn’t have a need yet. The mass majority of immigrants during this time period were flooding into the northeast U.S. and then either going into the service, working in mines, or making their way west to help with the expansion of the country.
Yup, this same Union army would turn around after the civil war and ethnically cleanse the Plains Indians over the next few decades. Many Irish participated in this too.
In 1863 they legislated for a Draft to keep up with the manpower needs of the army. They also allowed substitution so a rich man could pay a poor man to serve instead of him.
There definitely was some that were drafted but there was also a lot of patriotic volunteers as well. There’s a cork boy buried in Gettysburg Daniel Mahoney. His father died in the famine and he volunteered in 1861 with the 69th N.Y. he was 22 when he was killed in the wheat field. He was living in New York City with his mother
The draft for the Union functioned as a stick and carrot to make numbers. It wasn’t a pure levee en masse.
There was no real apparatus to enforce it; the idea was that the social shame of having their number called up would induce enough guys to report in.
Then, in tandem, you offered enlistment bonuses to anybody who signed up willingly, partially funded by the rich guys who simply paid the “don’t be drafted” fee.
So a critical mass of military age males were hammered with a series of incentives and disincentives- they’re having a draft soon, if you get picked you’ll have to go or else people will think you are a coward. Or sign up right now and we’ll give you a few months’ pay as a lump sum for being so patriotic.”
Then also paying out the ass to induce the hardened veterans of 1861-1863 to stick around and train and lead the new guys, even though their contracts were over.
The guys who genuinely straight up did not want to serve never had to; draft dodgers weren’t hunted down or anything. The guys who didn’t want to but didn’t object to it ended up either taking the bounty or showing up upon being called. The guys who wanted in to fight it out were already in.
End result was to scoop up enough tens of thousands of dudes into the training depots to form new armies that would go on to win.
It’d be much more interesting if it was broken down by parish or diocese. Of course cork and Galway would be dark green. They’re the size of three or four smaller counties.
The smaller breakdown would give an idea of what actual communities they came from.
Well for example one who fell at Gettysburg Daniel Mahoney was from innishannon county cork. His father died in 1848 in the famine. He was living in New York City 88th street with his mother and younger brother. He also had a couple older brothers in California. And several sisters.
There are also a bunch in Andersonville national cemetery. They died as prisoners of war in that hell of a camp. Timothy O’Carroll of the 69th was one of those men. He was 21 years old and died of starvation.
Funny thing I read about that in America. Two lads who fought the same fight in the young irelander rebellion in Ireland (1850s??) actually went to the US and fought in opposite sides afterwards! Thomas Francis Meagher (thanks for the lovely tricolour 🇮🇪) and John Mitchel I think?
Lincoln wanted to win the war, and casualties were high. I guess it was a lesser evil for him than turning on the screws on northerners. Three were already some pretty bad riots against conscription in New York the way things were.
The term yankee only applies to a quarter of the country (north east), and is only said by a different quarter of the country (south east) in the context of the civil war
Right, the bulk of these Irishmen immigrated to the northeast, which is why it apples here. Outside this context, the secondhand embarrassment is because it’s a swing and a miss.
The only other acceptable context I could think of is during world war 1 and 2, British soldiers referring to their American allies as “yanks”. Other then that I agree with the secondhand embarrassment
135 men with my surname were in both armies (more in the union than the confederacy thankfully) one particularly interesting chap was a sniper in the 13th Georgian rifles
Also about 1/4 of the entire US navy at the time were Irish.
The founder of the US navy, John Barry, was from Wexford.
And the hero of the Argentine navy? William Brown from Foxford, Mayo. Liberator of Chile? Bernardo O'Higgins.
Liberator of south America, Señor Simon Bolívar, had as one of his best generals a cork lad named Daniel Florence O'Leary.
Bolivar had a few other Irish guys under him. There's a hugely fascinating history of Irish people and their influence in south America. North America obviously as well but we did very, very well down south
I think Irishmen were also significant in the establishment of the Ecudorian (Thomas Charles Wright of Louth) and Uruguayan (Peter Campbell from Tipp) navies.
Indeed they were. In my travels in south America it was awesome to discover all these links and how aware the people were. If I had one wish it would be to be able to live and work a comfortable life in SA. Amazing place
Che had an irish grandfather too
His father had Lynch as one of his surnames, but I believe the Irish ancestor who brought the name Lynch with him was further back than grandfather. I have seen him described as Che's great-great-great-grandfather.
That’s true. Some earned the medal of honor as well.
Also about 40% of the British army.
During the Napoleonic wars one quarter of the British army and Navy were Irish too.
During the Napoleonic wars Ireland made up about 30 percent ish of the population of what was the UK at the time. About 4-5m here vs about 11m for Britain.
The famine and subsequent history really set back our population growth
I have read quite a bit on this area. Those who fought in that war, essentially passed the confidence/baton/funds for the 1916 rising and war of independence. I genuinely think our efforts to get rid of the brits mightnt have happened. Quite a lot of these Irish in the US were running from the british or devastating effects from brits. Meagher was a revolutionary in the young irelanders, sent to australia, escaped to US, rallied the irish together there and became a hero of the civil war (all while drunk). It was their success, that rallied the irish to come back and make links with home. He also made the Irish flag I believe. It's not to be shrugged off as another US claim to being Irish. Disclaimer I'm from ireland, and not from the US. I couldn't find a person who part of the young irelanders, and 1916, but the baton was passed in the US for sure.
https://preview.redd.it/13t0ejfeuqbg1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3ef3d4d389a775a83c6477800982fe5e61482a4f
One of those boys was James Doran. His parents were Irish immigrants, he had enlisted to be able to provide for his widowed mother. He was killed at Gettysburg. He was 24. I’m not from Ireland either I’m from western New York myself. Between Rochester and Buffalo.
A lot of the kin of these went back home too.
My ancestors left donegal, got to NYC, conscripted in the Union and fought in the war. After the war they settled in Northeast Pennsylvania as coal miners but then a couple generations later a bunch went back to Ireland and are still there. My specific line comes from the ones that were already conscripted into WWI service.
It’s a pretty interesting history to dig into.
yeah but unless they did some sweet home alabama they probably brought some other peoples with them too - i wonder who they added to the genetics of Ireland.
Honestly, probably not anything too crazy, especially given the time. They most likely would’ve married other Irish, Scotch-Irish/Ulster Scots, and Scots. Immigrant populations rarely left their circles.
Fair point. Most irish arrived in new york or canada i think. Some i guess found there way into the confederate. I dont think a kerryman would have had a strong option of eather side to be honest
There was a lot of Canadian volunteers as well They were very anti slavery and thousands volunteered to fight.
I can't find anything to suggest that anti-slavery was the main driver for Canadian volunteers. It may have been a motivation for some.
The book City of sedition about NYC during the civil war goes into Thomas Meagher who led the brigade, it's an interesting read.
You can see a flag of the Irish brigade at Collins barracks in Dublin.
https://preview.redd.it/gaxqsds6pqbg1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c2c715162ae914642f7e8f5b3822b6219c6eba9
There's also The Immortal Irishman which is about his life which I haven't read yet.
It’s a great read, you should enjoy it.
The Great Shame by Thomas Keneally is another good one. He covers Meagher, Mitchel, and other Young Irelanders. Fascinating history.
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Added my pic of the Collins barracks one above.
John O'Neill (Fenian) 9 March 1834 – 8 January 1878) was an Irish-born officer in the American Civil War and member of the Fenian Brotherhood. O'Neill is best known for his activities leading the Fenian raids on Canada in 1866 and 1871.\1])#cite_note-1)Founder of the City of O'Neill https://cityofoneillnebraska.com/
https://preview.redd.it/n3kgf8uv1rbg1.jpeg?width=276&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c732b8d9621abe87c7e70df18dbc7b8707cfe538
You can see the West is heavily represented, probably because the Famine was worse so more people emigrated from there.
What I find pretty fascinating is that 60% of Irish men of fighting age enlisted for the union, roughly 600,000 men total. Thats about 1 in 6 Irish people in America enlisting. And the 200,000 is just the first generation Irish who were born in Ireland. This made Irish people BY FAR the highest rate of service by ethnic background per capita.
It's also worth noting that for the confederate side, it was literally 10 times fewer, although there were also fewer Irish in the South, so if I'm being cynical, it was just a job to many of them, but still fascinating.
There was more Germans in the Union army than Irish but the Ireland earned more of a fearsome reputation for fighting hard in the union army.
There was a quote I remember vaguely on this. About the Irish being remembered more. And it goes along the lines of;
"Sure, the Germans can write a grand Oprey. But the Irish can write a lament".
There was German regiments in the Union army But they didn’t get as much fame. And a lot of regiments who served with them didn’t trust them because they gave all their orders and commands in German. But they still fought hard regardless.
I think that there were conscripted off the boat. No option. Press ganged. Must have been somthing coming from a village farm in north ferry to the killing fields of the civil war. Many never made it but a short while. Hopefully many made it through also. I guess some of my family could have been there given the numbers from kerry limerick.
To be fair many of them did enlist voluntarily. A sizeable number of Young Irelanders and Fenians escaping imprisonment in the 1840s–60s went to the US and joined up as well.
Not all were drafted. For example Daniel Mahoney, he was a volunteer in the 69th. He was killed at Gettysburg. He fought at Antietam and Fredericksburg as well.
https://preview.redd.it/sabou2tzrqbg1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7fb833a0a7a34b6855762a1075ef1a844f0119d5
Fraid not.
The three core regiments of the Irish Brigade- the 63rd, 69th, and and 88th New York Infantry- were all volunteers who fought before the draft was instituted and they stuck around for the whole war (except for the casualties). The other regiments attached to them from Pennsylvania and (I think) Massachusetts were either native born yankees who didn't like being shackled to Irish catholics or were Irish immigrants from other enclaves than New York.
I think they had a single round of recruiting after sustaining mass casualties from the old Irish enclaves in New York before Gettysburg chopped them to pieces again.
Either way, very few Irish New Yorkers got drafted, they were either volunteers or draft dodging fiercely.
My great-great-grandfather emigrated from Cork to Boston just as the war was breaking out. When he arrived and realized that enlisting was basically his only option, he got back on a boat to Ireland lol.
He eventually did emigrate to New York many years after the war, but in the meantime my great-great-grandmother and great-grandfather came into the picture. It’s funny to think that if he hadn’t gone back to Ireland instead of enlisting, I might not be here today.
Patently untrue.
and many would not have even spoken English
You don't need English for an infantry charge.
Yup, that’s pretty much how my websites got here. Left donegal, landed in NY, conscripted to fight, then settled down for the even more strenuous job of coal mining in northeast Pennsylvania. Tough SOBs
And 30,000 died. Long forgotten by the conservative Yankee pricks
A beautiful country and a bad$$ people. Can it be argued that there is another country this size that has contributed so much to the world?
It is a beautiful country, Love Ireland with all my heart.
Maybe the 23rd Illinois regiment had a nickname of 'The Irish Brigade' (which seems odd as it was a regiment, not a brigade), but 'The Irish Brigade' that most would think about when talking about the US civil war would be that formed by Thomas Meaghar (who was a pretty interesting charachter and introduced the modern Irish tricolour). That Brigade consisted of New York, Massachusetts and Pennsylvanian regiments and was famous for getting shred to bits at Fredericksburg. I also imagine that it would have a much higher number of Irish born recruits, being raised in New York, Boston and Philidelphia on the east coast of the US than a regiment raised in Illinois.
There was the 69th Pennsylvania which was also an Irish regiment. They fought hard at Gettysburg at Picketts charge. And The 69th New York fought at Gettysburg as well in the wheat field.
Yeah, the 69th New York was one of the regiments that was part of the Irish Brigade (the one founded by Meaghar). At the time a Brigade was made up of around 3-5 regiments. I don't think the 23rd Illinois Regiment was ever part of the Irish Brigade but I could be wrong. Regiments and other units would often get nicknames though, so maybe they were given it as a nickname.
Possibly. I actually have the flag of the 69th N.Y. on my wall in honor of that badass regiment. I have a lot of respect for them.
This. One of my great, great, great uncles was Colonel Patrick Kelly (from Castle Hackett near Tuam) of the 88th NY who commanded the Irish brigade at Gettysburg - only to die after being shot between the eyes as he advanced on the enemy position.
Would be good to see this for the San Patricios battalion too
Interesting point. They learned english quick in base camp. Those who didn't know english soon learned id say. Wouldn't have taken too long. They would have been Welsh polish etc with them in this also no doubt.
There was one story I remember 19 year old franz benda was from the Czech Republic near Prague. He enlisted in a mostly German regiment but thankfully for him the Prague area were he was born spoke German as well as Czech. He was shot in the hip and died of his wounds.
Okay - now do it for the confederacy.
There definitely was some that served in the confederate army 20,000 to 40,000 at least.
Antrim and Down would be very green on that map ironically.
There was a lot from Waterford apparently Especially Thomas Francis Meagher who was a revolutionary who fled Ireland to escape British persecution.
Meaghar fought for the Union. His co revolutionary John Mitchell was the one who was on Confederates side. His Son would have fought against Meagher at one battle.
Mitchel was a racist who defended slavery, so his fighting for the Confederates wasn't just happenstance, unfortunately. Bit disappointing considering he was one of the most virulent Young Irelanders and was heavily critical of the second-class citizen treatment Irish people got at that time under the British government.
It was an order of magnitude smaller than the union army Irish. Errant Brit indeed.
The most famous Irish regiment came from my home state of New York. The 69th N.Y. infantry they are actually still around in the New York national guard
‘The Fightin’ 69th’
They almost got wiped out at one point. At Antietam they had 196 out of 317 men be killed or wounded. They were badasses and even the confederates respected their tenacity.
Ok don’t get salty because I pointed out Irish involvement in the Confederacy, history is fact not feelings.
They were on both sides. At the battle of Fredericksburg they literally fought each other. The 69th N.Y. charged a stone wall held by a regiment from Georgia that flew an Irish harp flag.
Yeah I watched Ken Burns too
I may hate the confederates and my own family fought in the Union army. But the Irish who served on both sides were badasses and earned their reputations as hard fighters
Who is salty here?
But you literally did a "Whatbout" OP was talking about the Union Army
Yes, and the Union army fought the Confederate army. Do you not see the connection?
My god you're so obtuse.
How so?
Yeah but it's just a bit bizarre, it'd be like someone going.. ''now do a map for how many brits served in the SS'', or whatever, it has absolutely nothing to do with what the map is displaying and it comes off as you trying to put us down, again. you seem to love to put us down. bizzarely considering you made our country your home.
I guess a bit of nuance is bizarre!
No but what you're doing here is quite obvious? we know history is nuanced but this map is clearly about the union. and yet your only takeaway.., is in effect.. ''oh, don't forget you had people fighting for the BAD guys to preserve slavery lolol''..!
like okay?
You understand nuance, but your explanation in why I might add context to the title of this post is: why do you hate Ireland. I'd be more open to engaging if it wasn't basically a school-ground argument.
I don't think you hate Ireland, you live here. i said you seem to like to put us down. I've seen your comments in regards to Haughey which came across as you borderline justifying British soldiers being paranoid wrecks pointing weapons into Irish civilians faces on Irish boats in Irish waters in Irish counties (It was in Louth.) Whatever Haughey was responsible for in the years prior did not justify what happened and you were bang out of order by bringing it up. That's not nuance. Not really.
So after seeing that, and reading you instantly go.. ''ok - now do'', which by the way comes across so poorly almost like you're being smug, yeah. I might assume you're trying to put us in our place again, via ''nuance''.
You can think its bang out of order all you want, it doesn't mean what I highlighted wasn't true (that Haughey was a hypocrite). I'll remind you the Omagh bombing was 8 years after Haughey yacht was boarded - lets compare Royal Marines aiming guns and swearing at the captain in disputed waters vs the outcome of that bombing. Reflect on that.
On this post, if you only want to reflect on the Irish contigent of the Union army that's your choice, if you're saying any mention of their involvement in the Confederacy is not connected to the topic of Irish peoples involvement in the American Civil War - then that's willful ignorance (in my opinion).
Hows this for smug, but entirely accurate: ""Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - Santayana.
Why would anyone need that pointed out? I've seen you post incredibly dumb comments, on multiple occasions, where you feel the need to point something out that is already so obvious. You seem to think it's some sort of gotcha! Or you just learned it yourself and think nobody else knows.
Do you think Irish people are 1 homogenous group who all believe in the same things and act the same way? Bizarre.
I haven’t noticed you at all.
Because I don't post dumb comments
Good one!
There were some, but not nearly as many. One of my ancestors was in an Confederate Irish unit around Virginia. Most Irish settled in the north
For reasons obvious given the topic of the war, it was the North that was really hurting for labor and much more inviting to immigrants than the south, who didn’t have a need yet. The mass majority of immigrants during this time period were flooding into the northeast U.S. and then either going into the service, working in mines, or making their way west to help with the expansion of the country.
It's a pity they didn't have social media in those days, the lads could have stayed at home and just posted stories about the conflict.
We also wiped out a lot of natives unfortunately
Yup, this same Union army would turn around after the civil war and ethnically cleanse the Plains Indians over the next few decades. Many Irish participated in this too.
Philip Sheridan (potentially born while his parents were crossing the Atlantic) is a good example of this
Sure we never harmed a fly it was the brits what made us do it probably
In 1863 they legislated for a Draft to keep up with the manpower needs of the army. They also allowed substitution so a rich man could pay a poor man to serve instead of him.
There definitely was some that were drafted but there was also a lot of patriotic volunteers as well. There’s a cork boy buried in Gettysburg Daniel Mahoney. His father died in the famine and he volunteered in 1861 with the 69th N.Y. he was 22 when he was killed in the wheat field. He was living in New York City with his mother
https://preview.redd.it/j4ceabslrqbg1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9f81ea6429d0260786aaff95c611a531a73b243
I'm sure there were, but there must also have been some that were substitutes.
That unfortunately was the case for some.
The draft for the Union functioned as a stick and carrot to make numbers. It wasn’t a pure levee en masse.
There was no real apparatus to enforce it; the idea was that the social shame of having their number called up would induce enough guys to report in.
Then, in tandem, you offered enlistment bonuses to anybody who signed up willingly, partially funded by the rich guys who simply paid the “don’t be drafted” fee.
So a critical mass of military age males were hammered with a series of incentives and disincentives- they’re having a draft soon, if you get picked you’ll have to go or else people will think you are a coward. Or sign up right now and we’ll give you a few months’ pay as a lump sum for being so patriotic.”
Then also paying out the ass to induce the hardened veterans of 1861-1863 to stick around and train and lead the new guys, even though their contracts were over.
The guys who genuinely straight up did not want to serve never had to; draft dodgers weren’t hunted down or anything. The guys who didn’t want to but didn’t object to it ended up either taking the bounty or showing up upon being called. The guys who wanted in to fight it out were already in.
End result was to scoop up enough tens of thousands of dudes into the training depots to form new armies that would go on to win.
It’d be much more interesting if it was broken down by parish or diocese. Of course cork and Galway would be dark green. They’re the size of three or four smaller counties.
The smaller breakdown would give an idea of what actual communities they came from.
Well for example one who fell at Gettysburg Daniel Mahoney was from innishannon county cork. His father died in 1848 in the famine. He was living in New York City 88th street with his mother and younger brother. He also had a couple older brothers in California. And several sisters.
There are also a bunch in Andersonville national cemetery. They died as prisoners of war in that hell of a camp. Timothy O’Carroll of the 69th was one of those men. He was 21 years old and died of starvation.
I'm not sure of the historical accuracy, but it's a beautiful rendition of a related ballad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVKeIE8HQwY&t=25s
Is there a list of names to go with this map?
"Not for honour nor for country
We kill for 3 square meals a day
Of the boat with back on shoulder
Gun in hand we're here to stay"
Clear the way- John Doyle
Funny thing I read about that in America. Two lads who fought the same fight in the young irelander rebellion in Ireland (1850s??) actually went to the US and fought in opposite sides afterwards! Thomas Francis Meagher (thanks for the lovely tricolour 🇮🇪) and John Mitchel I think?
It's really fucked up when you consider that these were mostly poor immigrants, many of whom didn't even speak English.
They really did use the most vulnerable people to fight their wars.
Lincoln wanted to win the war, and casualties were high. I guess it was a lesser evil for him than turning on the screws on northerners. Three were already some pretty bad riots against conscription in New York the way things were.
Also waged war against the planes indians
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Don't be a dick
Ironically, this is one of the only contexts where we Americans don’t cringe at being called Yanks cause it actually applies.
The term yankee only applies to a quarter of the country (north east), and is only said by a different quarter of the country (south east) in the context of the civil war
Right, the bulk of these Irishmen immigrated to the northeast, which is why it apples here. Outside this context, the secondhand embarrassment is because it’s a swing and a miss.
The only other acceptable context I could think of is during world war 1 and 2, British soldiers referring to their American allies as “yanks”. Other then that I agree with the secondhand embarrassment
135 men with my surname were in both armies (more in the union than the confederacy thankfully) one particularly interesting chap was a sniper in the 13th Georgian rifles