*Editing to add-
If I could change the post title I would, as 'dumbfounded' comes across as really tone deaf. The comments on this post have been so enlightening, some people sharing their stories of grief and loss, friends stories etc. some very good points of view, and I regret the hastily formulated title as while I was initially taken back by the response of the man I interacted with, I have come to realize (through lovely commenters) that this man was most likely trying to stop himself getting emotional, coming from a generation where emotions were 'inappropriate' to be expressed, especially for men.
Also, if anyone who sees this knows their Dad was in Kilquade Arboretum today, I want to convey my condolences for the loss of your 18 year old son. Your dad was a gentleman in the short interaction we had, if I had the foresight I would have asked him would he like a hug, but I'm sending hugs to you, and your entire family as his grandson is obviously missed every day by you all.
Was in Arboretum in Delgany today for a nosey and to meet someone. Had my 1yo holding my hands to walk around and we were approached by an elderly man....convo went like this...
Man: ah how old? Me: Just turned 1! Man: I have a girl who's.....50 now! Me: aw lovely! Man: Yeah, she had a boy, he died of cancer two years ago when he was 18... Me: Oh God I'm so sorry that's awful!! Man: Ah sure, no use crying over spilt milk! Sure she misses him a lot and we think of him every year on that day... Me: Of course, You'd never stop missing him, that's so awful , I'm sorry for your loss. Man: Ah it's ok! Walks off
Nothing but condolences for this family, and I get that most of his generation were seen and not heard, no capacity for emotional support, but Jesus I was taken back by the spilt milk comment....
Ah sure God love him. He needs to talk about it but can’t. That’s why he opened up to a stranger. That’s why he said “no point crying over spilt milk” - he is putting the lid back on again. That’s the way elderly people were taught to deal with grief
This 💔💔💔💔
I can nearly hear my father in law coming with this type of comment. He wouldn't even be as old as the man in the OP
Sometimes you cover the deepest pain with the simplest words. Because none of the best chosen words, no novel, no soliloquy or epic poem gets close. So all you've got is cliches, and a quiet knowing look between people with equally unspeakable losses.
I think Hozier, one of our own and a great poet as well as a musician, gets it pretty close:
Picture a grave, picture six feet freshly dug The sharp temporary walls at the long-term cliff edge of the world Light and air find some new deepness there and usher down the sky Where one stands by, and tries make sense of it
Try measure loss, measure the silence of a house The unheard footsteps at the doorway, the unemployment of the mouth The waking up, having forgotten and remembering again The full extent of what forever is
I just lost my mam 😭😭😭😭😭
I'm so sorry for your loss. My friend lost hers a few years ago, practically an aunt to me. I still talk to her sometimes, like I'm having a cup of tea with her.
You'll always miss her, the pain doesn't go away, but you'll grow around the pain and learn how to cope a bit better over time. I hope your loved ones bring you comfort as you grieve.
While this doesn't necessarily help you, I really am sending you tight hugs and my deepest sympathies. Feel free to message me if you like or need to. 🫂
Thank you x
I’m so so sorry. I lost mine 10 years ago this May and it still hurts so bad. Time does help you cope, but since then I’ve got married and had kids; that she never got to meet and it’s awful. I try not to think about it too much, but ofc I think about her everyday. Other people would complain about their mam to me at times and I’d want to bite their head off. Sending you all the love, be kind to yourself ❤️
I lost my Dad 10 years ago and yes, it does get easier but it never goes away. Juat going through the Mills atm. I got dumped the week my was dying too after 3 years so that was fun
Oh no, so sorry to hear that. Onwards and upwards for you. I hope this year all the good things happen for you, sending you all the positive juju! ☘️
Im so sorry for your loss.
So sorry x
That man is a treasure, that is so beautiful and puts into word what is so hard to describe.
Irish people seem to have a different understanding and relationship with grief. Some of us, like Hozier can put it into words. Some of us don’t have the words but, we all understand and respect the pain of loss better than other nationalities. I had someone close to me die not that long ago and I was reminded of and very thankful for that fact.
You have nailed it here. That generation were never taught the words to express their feelings. Thankfully, things are changing,slowly, but they are changing.
Also notice..
I've a girl, who's 50 now
She's a 50yr old woman who is still his baby girl.. and he is still being her Dad.. her rock.. and that little chat, that little vent, he probably decompressed alot more than what many realise in that brief exchange..
He probably cant grieve for his grandson the way his daughter has been grieving and other family members.. he is being the solid one..
You're so right, there's always so much more to be found in and behind the words people say, and how they say them.
I really hope that telling me about it helped him that little bit...
Trust me, the best way i can explain..
Think of a pressure cooker and you turn the switch to let all that steam blow out before opening the lid..
That brief exchange with you and your wee one, was his pressure release.. he is most likely out of tears, he would of seen people pass in his lifetime, parents, grandparents, relatives, friends, colleagues.. etc..
And now unfortunately he had a grandson gone way too soon.. way before his years.. and he has to be a rock again for his 50yr old baby girl..
In glad he had that brief exchange with you..
Im 43 myself with a 20yr old.. it hits close to home.. and I've had lads I barely know in my local have a cry beside at the bar after losing someone, especially a kid, because generally they cant when they are at home..
Thank you for your perspective and your comment.... I wish I had asked him would he like a hug or something but I'm glad he felt he could say something about it to me
Wow that is very touching, I didn't think about it that way... all the people he's seen die and then to have to help his daughter grieve their grandson too. I'm sure Christmas has not an easy time for them
It looks like you've made a grammatical error. You've written "would of ", when it should be "have" instead of "of". You should have known that. Bosco is not proud of you today.
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A lot of this kind of awkwardness comes from a place of unresolved grief tbh.
Seeing you and your son obviously reminded him of his grandson and the loss otherwise he wouldn’t have approached and said anything. Maybe he felt off guard once he said it and felt the emotion.
Ah god love him, very hard for people to express their grief, especially the older generations
My mum when she got cancer diagnosis:
"Could me worse, rather me than one of my grandkids"
Fought back tbe tears that day I can teel ya!
My own mother was the same, got a diagnosis of small cell lung cancer, same thing that killed my dad. I was with her for the appointment. She just asked the oncologist how long she had, he said weeks. Two tears ran down her cheek, she dried her eyes and said I’m going home to die, I’m not staying here. Never another word, not another tear. Woman was 5ft nothing and weighed about 6 stone. Tough as old boots not wanting to be upset in front of her “baby”.
Lost my mam to SCLC too. Sorry for your loss, I was home visiting from Canada and she was admitted to hospital with back pain, they thought it was sepsis at first, she was only concerned that she was ruining my trip by being in the hospital. My sister asked the oncologist how long and he said “we’re all terminal”. When we pushed he said 6-12 months, she got 6. Horrible disease.
My mother and father went the same way, admitted with pains in the back/shoulders, both were 3 weeks from diagnosis to death. The only comfort is neither suffered and they didn’t linger.
Sending you the biggest hug. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I will say the final 3 weeks with my poor mam were awful, I’m glad in your case that it was at least quick ❤️
Always strong for our babies... Sending hugs to you for your loss 🫂
My mam died recently of sclc too. She was the same about it, kept saying nothing can be changed and at least it wasn't a younger person. Miss her terribly
I’m sorry for your loss
Oh God, I so understand her response. I'm sorry for your mum's cancer diagnosis ❤️🫂
I think you’re mistaking the “spilt milk” comment for not caring. I’d imagine it’s coming from a place of distress and being not great at expressing emotion.
My immediate reaction was along those lines of "wow how could that be what you think to say.." but you're definitely right
If he didn't care his mind wouldn't have gone there in 3 quick hops from seeing your one year old. It's haunting him.
I’m not the older generation but I do understand the response, sounds like something my own father would say and we lost my brother also. To me that just means more what can you do, can’t control/undo it so no point complaining.
Tbh I was a bit shocked that you posted this, as you seemed to be inferring that he was a heartless oddball.
But maybe you were taken aback by his delivery. At least you seem a bit more understanding now.
Yes I definitely didnt convey it properly, I was internally quite emotional about his story of his grandson (and said many times I was sorry for his loss), but taken back by the seemingly nonchalant way he commented on it afterwards. It obviously (after more thought and enlightenment from comments here) wasn't for lack of emotion rather than lack of ability to express the emotion behind it. I do feel a bit silly for my shock as I usually am good at seeing the emotion and intent behind these kind of sentiments and interactions....
Lookit he quite possibly ‘let himself out’ when taking about your son - but then tried to put a lid on his emotions.
I’d imagine by his daughter being 50, he could well be mid 70s. Times weren’t kind in allowing men to express their emotions in times past.
Absolutely, I hope that now and in the future it gets better and society never reverts back to that state of emotional suppression for men or anyone for that matter
I worked with someone who had a stillborn baby in the mid 90s. She told me that her husband had a breakdown after that - everyone was asking her how she was, and very few people at all asked him. Then there was complete lack of respect that he might need some time off work too. And both her family and his fully expected him to just ‘be strong and carry on’.
We met up as a friend group a few months afterwards, and he cried in the pub when someone asked how he was doing.
So you never know what grief is doing to someone - and how they may try to hide it or cope, until something makes it flood out.
That is so heartbreaking and disappointing, the lack of support for the father societally and from his own family
I still remember it, and the pub we were in. I wasn’t going to say, but it was me who asked him, and I didn’t know how to react when he just cried his eyes out. I was young, and just froze.
His breakdown was shortly afterwards, and I nearly had a meltdown myself tbh. I was 19 I think, and thought it was my fault for asking.
But the point was that there was shit support for anyone in that scenario - but absolutely zero for the fathers. I’ll never forget that moment, or my colleague telling me later that apparently literally no one had asked him how he was doing.
Good on you for asking him. I know it was probably second nature for you to ask, and it's not something people need necessarily be praised for, but I can imagine that you asking him led to him realizing how completely not ok he was, and to hopefully eventually get the help he needed. Also it definitely wasn't your fault that he had the mental health crisis shortly after, it would've come at some time or another
Ah, don't be too hard on yourself OP. You were there, he approached you, you listened to him and he probably got a lot more out of the encounter than you realise. And even if you don't realise you're doing it you might be left worrying about your own child when you hear bad news about another young person. And he must have felt comfortable talking to you which shows you come across as a nice person
I really hope he did! And thank you ❤️
no I reckon thats a bit of anger slipping out about their lovely boy of 18 dying. I think he just can't process it. he automatically came over because of the child and was going to have a nice chat about him then got hit with a wave of grief
That makes a lot of sense!
That man is suffering, grieving hard and not really sure what to do about it.
I was bringing my little fella home from the barbers over Christmas, randomly started chatting to an old man that was on his way to the bookies, is that you’re son ? He asked.., He is I replied getting himself spruced up for Santa, the old guy said ah you’re so happy I wish I had a son, but sometimes life doesn’t go how you think it well, kind of gave us a half hug & went off to the bookies, he stuck with all over Christmas, lovely little soft old man,
Aw what a lovely interaction, sounds like a lovely man. I hope Santa was good to your son!
omg.😔😔
God bless him.
He's deep in grief. So so sad.
Broke my heart reading this...
My mom is like this (not Irish).. Generational thing..
Ireland has a hugely underdiagnosed mental health issue.
The stigma for older generations ever seeing a shrink is real.
Tbh, not only in Ireland..
I've seen it here, yes, in the 20 years I've been here, but it's the same back at my place of origin..
Generational thing..
Thats just grief. I won't get into my personal story but this is how I protected myself and my family shortly after a massive tragic loss. It took 3years of therapy to come to terms with it. That is the hardest thing I have ever done. But the best. Easiest option would have been to drink my way out it or ignored it like it never happened. But I couldn't afford to do that so I has to meet it head on. Before therapy I had that man's attitude...ah sure isn't that life...shxt happens what can I do...sure we all die. Don't judge him. You never know what a person is going through. Generally we as a society don't know how to deal with loss. We tend to pretend like it didn't happen. We cant truly discuss how we feel to each other.
You're right, I'm also aware of how lucky I am to not be in his situation where a loss like that has hit me, let alone how I would deal with it. Being out and about at all must be difficult, seeing constant reminders of his grandson when he was small and his daughter when she was small. I didn't intend on judging him at all, but was taken back by his response. It makes sense he said it after I told him I was sorry for his loss, I can imagine that's the line that sets most people off emotionally in that situation...
I'm also very sorry for your loss, and happy for you that you found help through therapy, no matter the timeline. Therapy is so difficult but as you said it's the best thing to have done (given my own experience). Your point about society not knowing how to deal with loss is also so sadly true. I hope it changes for the better as time goes on
Definitely the generation!! My aunt got pregnant at 17 back in the mid 80s and my nana threw a pot across the kitchen annd sat back down silently and my grandad said "no point crying over spilt milk". They never spoke about things.
Jesus, that's awful. Although unfortunately sounds about right for the generation, I hope we all do better for the next generations onwards...
Learned deflection, stiff upper lip and never show weakness. Am sure he carries a broken heart.
Ah God love him. He probably has no one he can actually talk to about it, so he started spilling to you, a stranger. Then he put the feelings back in the box with the "spilt milk" comment when he realised he was unloading too much on a stranger.
It's really sad. =(
I wouldn’t put too much weight on the spilt milk remark. Grief is very complicated. I have said some mad stuff since my partner died. It just comes out and I do be cringing at myself after.
I'm really sorry for the loss of your partner
My partner passed in august and for weeks after when everyone was asking me how I was doing i just kept saying ah sure it is what it is. It wasn't that I was being flippant about it just had no other words to process it. Grief is a weird one, tbh iv said some very crazy things since it happened im sure people have walked away thinking wtf? 🤣
I'm sorry for your loss.
Honestly I can imagine autopilot kind of kicks in at some point so you barely know what's coming out of your own mouth!
Oh 100%! And theres part of me now just embracing it, this is just who I am now. Someone who says crazy things because im not fighting autopilot 🤣 so im sure he was probably on the same vibe as me. Like I said iv learnt grief is weird and makes you very weird 🤷♀️
That generation doesn’t talk like we do. For all we know, that could have been the most emotional conversation he’s had about it with anyone, feeling as if he has to hide the emotions from his close family, so he find a stranger to vent a little to, even if it’s a very small emotional vent.
Definitely this poor man was probably trying to deflect from his grief. Elderly people tend to be very candid and open with details of their life but will clam up when it comes to expressing emotion about it. Remember this is the generation that brought us expressions like "he suffers with his nerves" and "she's fond of the drink". I'm sure your interaction with him brought a little joy to his day
Yes I still hear those phrases and similar when I hear my grand-aunt talking about her friends or other family. Like a concise way to explain the person's difficulties without actually helping or finding out what's wrong at the root.... I hope our interaction did bring a little joy to his day. I'll think of him always to be honest, very soft spoken and friendly.
Aren’t we all just spilt milk in the grand scheme of things.
I read this in viper higgins' voice in my head for some reason
Me reading this thread
Lol. Yeah. We really are an odd bunch of people 😂😳
Ah that poor man.. nothing harder than trying to hide your grief with complacency.. I’m tearing up here just thinking of him. My heart goes out to him and his family..
As an older person myself, as we get older we develop a different relationship with death. You learn that it comes to us all, and there are worse things than dying. All you can do is make the most of every day you’re lucky enough to have. And it’s ok to make light of it.
Sometimes, somethings, just get you where you feel. This man obviously saw you in your moment and remembered a time he walked hand in hand with his grandson. He most probably at that moment, in the moment, for a moment felt every feeling, the physical memory. A brief beautiful moment he shared and can remember. Joy and sadness in an emphatic wave of howya.
There are a certain cohort of the population who respond to grief by being practical. It is how they get through it day by day. That's not to say they feel grief any less but they move forward with life. In one way it's pragmatic but I still question did they process it properly
' , , , this man was most likely trying to stop himself getting emotional, coming from a generation where emotions were 'inappropriate' to be expressed, especially for men.'
'. . . if I had the foresight I would have asked him would he like a hug.'
Nice thought I guess but seems you've not recovered altogether from your deafness. If what you say in first para is indeed the case do you not think the offer of a hug would have made him feel enormously awkward, ill at ease, and reluctant to mention the subject in future?--I'm not an old man from generation that bottled things up but I'd be horrified if you asked me this, and if I replied at all it woudnt be smilingly that I did.
I never said I'd force him, I'd ask him if he would like one, not even 'can I give you a hug' And if he said no, I wouldn't do it obviously. Just because people have a hard time expressing emotions or don't know how, doesn't mean that a hug he would have consented to couldn't be of benefit. Even though a gesture like that would make you feel bad, doesn't mean it would have been his reaction. Not to mention this is all hypothetical anyway. I may have initially missed the real intent behind his spilt milk comment, but I'm good enough in social situations that if I noticed discomfort after asking him would he like a hug, I would have just said no problem.
This is how Ive dealt with grief in the past and im 34. Keeping it light hearted because you dont want to burden anyone with the full weight of the loss. Everyone has their own way of living with grief and expressing it if keeping the lid on that box gets too hard.
I'm fucking tears reading this thread
In relation to your edit, all my life I've felt like I had to be seen not heard and that I was never really allowed to express my emotions. Nowadays, I feel like I only have two emotions other than "normal" and they are sadness and anger neither of which I really want to express in public so I always try to be normal and I would probably say some like this in response to a similar encounter.
But in saying that, I probably wouldn't have said anything in the first place because I have always felt like my presence isn't wanted, by anyone really, especially in the past few years. I feel like people only want me around when it suits them or I'm doing something for them. I feel like I only exist to go to work and sleep and pay fucking rent. But anyway, sorry for the rant! 😂
Rant away, no need to be sorry! I'm really sorry you feel like that, and that you've been made to feel like that.
I hope you can get some help if therapy is something you can and want to do. And that you can find some people to surround yourself with that don't make you feel like that!
I think you'd be surprised by how common the work, sleep, pay rent feeling is!!! Like we're just existing in a hamster wheel of the same shit, different day 🤣
Ffs can you not have a quiet moment with a stranger and not have it posted about on the Internet.
I think you met a slightly more desolate version of Tommy Shlug
He was embarrassed at your over the top reaction. Saying "I'm sorry for your loss" once quietly with meaning is more than enough. You don’t want to unintentionally twist the knife. The title is not the problem here,
I wouldn't class that as over the top, but I understand your point of unintentionally twisting the knife
It is, and comes across like you expected him to perform grief for you. It was clearly unintentional, but you should understand the problem with this interaction was fully you. Don't beat yourself up, but he likely felt far worse after this interaction than before he spoke to you.
Editing to add: agree to disagree on the over the top, no need to argue it as I didn't feel it was over the top, I really was and am sorry for his loss.
Ok honestly I think you're going a bit hard there, I passed him while leaving and we smiled at each other. I hope he didn't feel worse, but what good does that do to say that to me? Telling me not to beat myself up but then telling me that my well meaning gesture probably made someone more miserable defeats the purpose of saying not to beat myself up. I hope nobody speaks that way to you in future. I'm sure he knew I meant well as most people do.
I didn't realise we were glasses of milk. I hate humans.
My Dad is the same about his grandson. Just weird when it comes to death. I really don't like it.
I don’t think that’s necessarily fair. The emotions that people feel ‘allowed’ to express are very much coloured by their generation and gender.
I genuinely don’t think it’s fair or right to judge someone as ‘weird’ over one of the most difficult things to cope with (death). And of course death when it’s unexpected - as in someone’s child or grandchild - is out of the expected scheme of things, which makes it even more difficult to cope with.
Nah his sisters and brothers are similar. Just cold when it comes to acknowledging people dieing.
I still maintain that the expression may come across as cold, but that doesn’t by any means that the person feels cold about it.
For example of how grief can be not how people generally expect: When one of my parents died, I was actually relieved. They were horrible, and persecuted me my whole life. I only told really close people that, because I reckoned most people would be aghast that I was relieved that they died.
When my other parent died, I simultaneously wanted to talk about them but also wanted no-one to mention them ever. I want to celebrate their life, but also not talk about the hole in my life because it was too upsetting. I’m sure I made stupid comments / jokes at the time. Mainly as a means of deflecting emotion. So I don’t think you can ever describe how someone is dealing with a loss as ‘cold’. It’s a mechanism of dealing with stuff.
The other comments and replies to this post are very enlightening, It's jarring when a seemingly emotionless phrase is used to describe such an emotionally heavy topic, but is probably a coping mechanism or the only way some people can cope in the moment without getting emotional in front of strangers.
I'm really sorry for you and your family's loss.