About a year ago, I moved to a high end condo just off of Mass Ave. I love the neighborhood and vibe. But I have noticed that the real estate market is virtually dead in this area (+/- 2 blocks off Mass Ave in either direction). This seems strange to me because Bottleworks is brand new and seemed like it would pull in more residents. Anyone have any insight on why the market in this area is still so soft? (I know the market in general is soft, but this particular area is flat out dead).
Who can afford the 650k condo?
By the time a person/couple can afford that, their mass Ave days are done. Or they have a child and its definitely done.
I used to be about that Meridian St. life, now im the youngest person in my neighborhood. I walk my dog and watch Netflix while my wife makes soup and sourdough.
Just a tough marketplace.
Don’t forget the $500 monthly HOA
I can only speak for my experience in Chicago vs home in Indy. The condo HOA included water, gas, trash, and internet. Plus the insurance on a condo is way cheaper than a home. When you account for those and the insurance difference, the HOA is a wash.
$500 HOA $500 annual insurance or $42ish a month TOTAL $542 per month
Vs.
Water $40 Sewage $30 Trash $20 Gas $70 Internet $100 Home insurance $3,000 ($250 a month) TOTAL $520 per month
That’s how it is in my Indy condo. Gas/water/sewer/trash are all included.
Chicago condos are nicer for cheaper than Indy ones tho
Well I can assure you Chicago are not cheaper. And chi being nicer is up for debate. The Mill 9 and glove factory and silk lofts are all really nice. They are also 300-500k with enclosed parking.
I looked at a place here several years ago and the condo association fees worked out to be something like $750/mo. That was a non-starter for us.
My HOA is $520 per month, but that includes water, sewer and trash. In addition, we have a nice gym and a rooftop common area. I also get two parking spaces in a secure, gated lot right downtown. I do not have to do any landscaping or lawn maintenance. Never have to replace a roof. The fees also maintain the elevators (regular and freight), meaning no stairs. Most importantly, to me anyway, is that our building is spotless, as we have the cleaning crew out at least twice per week. I’ve lived in some apartments that were not well maintained and it showed.
You paid for a Condo, AND they charge you $520 a month HOA fees? So over 10 years, you're going to throw 60,000 dollars away and make a management company/real estate firm rich? I just don't get this.
I, very clearly, laid out what it pays for. I don't know what else to tell you.
There's no way you can convince me that paying some peoples monthly rent to the HOA is worth it. Not to mention the overt historical racism that comes with the creations of HOAs. Truly disgusting practices
My building (two blocks off of Mass Ave.) is full of retired people, doctors, lawyers, etc. People like to be near things downtown. There aren't too many younger people in my building and it has nearly 50 units. "Mass Ave. days" makes it seem like people are just partying here - or that condos are like frat houses - but that's not the case. It's just convenient and some people will pay for convenience.
Also, you can get something nice for well under $650k. Yes, there are units in my building up to $1,000,000, but the unit next mine is 1,400 sq. ft., two bed and two bath, and sold for $350k last year.
always will be exceptions, but its still the reason why the properties are quite a bit more stagnant in the real estate world. Your buyer pool is so much smaller.
I kind of always assumed those had appeal to empty nesters. Low maintenance and walkable. Just out of reach for most pre-kids.
Hard agree - all of the residents that I know within a 2 block radius are 35+ white collar professionals or retirees (many of whom could easily live in Carmel or Fishers). Not sure where the idea is coming from that this area is only for younger party types.
op. the people that want to live there, already do.
Its like "why isnt that 30mil Nascar house sold in southern indiana?" There are only so many buys for that. There are a million buyers for a 350k SFH with good schools. There are very few buyers for a downtown condo. Like I said, im that demographic and still said nah.
Overpriced properties don't match Indiana salaries.
For the money you pay, would you wanna be around mass ave or would you want a big house with a big yard in say old north side, fountain square, or even the suburbs? Combine that with how bad traffic has gotten in the past 3-5 years you’d have to deal with constantly. and it’s not like the restaurant, shops, and attractions are that exciting to justify the price hence why the market is so soft
We’re 2 blocks off Mass and I don’t drive a car unless I need to go outside of a 5ish mile radius. Bus, bike, foot get us (partner + kids) to where we need 90% of the time. Partner has turned down other jobs to keep their ability to commute by any way other than car and I’m fortunate to either work from home or out of town.
Outside of rush (half) hour traffic isn’t bad. I moved here from LA so maybe my perspective is skewed.
Yeah I commute twice a week to Carmel for work so coming and going traffic is pretty bad. But I do like living next to mass ave but can totally understand why the market in the area is somewhat stagnant
I live near Mass so I don’t have to deal with traffic and restrain 25% of my week to that. Plus live close to dozens of friends and enjoy every weekend.
I live near mass too and only commute to work twice a week and the traffic is pretty bad. Mass isn’t the same post Covid and a lot of attractions cater to a yuppy crowd. But if it’s fits your lifestyle then that’s all that matters!
Mass was designed to attract a yuppie crowd 15-20 years ago (for better or worse). Maybe you’ve changed?
Nah just think other neighborhoods have surpassed it. Fountain square/fletcher place is way better
Downtown living is a) it's own flavor you have to enjoy to buy a house here and b) expensive as shit to finance just like everything right now.
If you're a high earner/high credit rating buyer right now you're probably in the small-or-growing-family chase-a-school-district place and not the i-wanna-be-able-to-rage-and-then-stumble-home place. And like some other folks here have said, those condo prices are gonna need to come back to earf a little bit.
When I lived downtown it felt like the height of development was 2004-2008. I sold a new construction condo on Mass ave that was more on the affordable end (2BR - 1200sq/ft) and I feel like what I bought it for 20 years ago, sold it for 10 years ago, and what its worth today are all roughly the same number. Meanwhile my suburban home has doubled in 10 years so downtown its seemed pretty flat. Every building/HOA/special assessment situation is a little different too. I always dreamt of retiring and moving back downtown into a penthouse at Three Mass though.
Downtown definitely hasn’t been flat. Hard to compare condos to single family homes. Plenty of downtown neighborhood prices have gone through the roof. Empty lots have gone up 5x in 10 years.
Feels like the entire market is on the softer side right now. A quick Zillow search for <$500k will yield 1000+ results, and plenty of sellers are offering to cover closing costs and/or other incentives.
Hard to sell luxury condos in that environment.
Downtown doesn't exist on its own. You can still live within 4-5 miles of downtown, still be very close, pay less and get more space.
And the people who can afford to live at a current downtown condo price and want that urban environment, you can bet they're also looking at Cleveland, Detroit, Cincy and other mid-tier US downtowns to see what they have to offer. Or may even try to justify just moving to Chicago and get one of the best urban environments in the country.
Yeah, this.
Indy's downtown (and Mass Ave in particular) has cooled considerably in the time I've lived here. It's just nothing to write home about.
I think walkability just isn't valued in this city the same way as other cities. From my condo, I can walk to get my haircut, to the grocery store, to my dentist, and to about 50 decent restaurants. And with a scooter there's even more. In most cities, the walkable areas are valued so much more.
I blame condados. That place makes shit food. Put a Lucianos or some shit there, ill move tomorrow
God I hate that place - such a huge interior space in a popular corner. And it's a complete mess. Condados, if you're listening, please leave.
Careful what you wish for. I'd bet that space sits empty for a good long while if it becomes vacant.
Or becomes a vape shop.
This!
Place sucks so hard unless you are into cold tacos. What a joke.
Literally the ONLY tacos that I haven't liked . I didn't know that someone could possibly fuck up making something as easy as a taco, yet Condado has managed to do this. Seriously, how do those places stay open?!
I don't know, but I gave this place 3 chances which is was 1 too many and it was always trash. Agave & Rye is similar in concept with huge overpriced tacos, but at least they serves theirs hot. Even though that's a lowbar.
IMO many factors. Lack of high paying employers anchored downtown, stagnant wages for young professionals + lack of them overall, higher earners being a bit older with more desire for SFH, too much development for occasional & sports crowds downtown generally.
Basically, peripheral neighborhoods & suburbs have become more appealing to homebuyers/full time residents. Downtown has become less vibrant. Mass Ave is still cool but suffers from this anyways.
I recommend everyone read The Life and Death of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs. Not 100% applicable to Indy, but it is very helpful in learning what creates a ‘good’ downtown.
Thanks for this. Sounds fascinating. I’m in.
Yes please let me know what you think after!
Jane Jacobs is a legend. She was as great as Robert Moses was awful.
one thing to note about the bottleworks project is when it was originally proposed, they promised to build a ton of housing, but they keep not doing it.
unfortunately, bottleworks is primarily a destination for suburban visitors and commuters, not a neighborhood amenity.
Yes, exactly! Where did all the promised apartments go? It definitely feels like an appendage to Mass Ave instead of an integral part of it.
i assume the same forces that you've observed keeping the condo market lukewarm are a signal to developers that building housing there is riskier than building office space and a parking garage, unfortunately.
i think bottleworks as an appendage of mass ave is absolutely the way to see it. hell, they have been trying to create a new neighborhood (bottleworks district) out of it
*stares at economy*
It’s too expensive. The problem is that the developers (who are mostly out of state) conglomerates think Indy is like Chicago or Milwaukee.
The wealthy people in this metro live in the suburbs; and downtown believe it or not doesn’t have the big finance/tech/industry pool to bring in enough young single high income earners who can afford those condos.
$600,000 for a renovated 2b/2b built in 1950?
Yeah…. The people who can afford that will go to Carmel/Fishers to not be bothered by drunk people, homelessness and random shootings.
I’ve lived and worked downtown for 25 years and those things aren’t part of daily life. Especially near Mass Ave.
Downtown is priced for empty nesters and Salesforce and Lilly higher-ups. No one who works on Mass Ave can afford to live nearby. But I have lived and worked around downtown for 25 years and made it work. Wish there were more opportunities for people who want to make a downtown community, especially near Mass Ave to support its small businesses.
Some sellers over price their home. Condos in mature neighborhoods don't often see high value returns in short order, not without something nearby new adding value. Keywords there are 'short order' and 'new'. Living by Bottleworks was likely built into the price when those condos last sold.
Understandably, you want part of your return to out pace what you paid, as well as a realtor cost. That causes sellers to over price their homes at times. If 'you're' not in a hurry to move, you can do that. Put it on the market for 2-3 months, then take it off. Put it back on again later.
I'm not in a hurry to move. I've lived here for a year and plan on living here at least 5-8 more years. But I must admit, this stagnancy has made me second guess a few times.
5-8 isn't much time to build equity or realize much change in the value of your property. Sometimes people buy into hot areas, and it doesn't take much to make them not that hot anymore, even if it is still a top quality neighborhood.
It's also different if you live in a community where good schools partly drive the market.
What statistics are you looking at that lead you to believe it’s dead?
There are 2 units next to me that have sat unsold for over a year. And empty plots of land nearby that have been "shovel ready" for a few years.
Even the “cheap” condos near mass ave are pretty unaffordable.
There’s a pretty nice one bedroom two baths for 160,000 not to far from where I currently live. But it has a 500 a month HOA fee. So you essentially get locked in to only having one bedroom, so no office or other space if you want a roommate or to have a child, and you can’t realistically rent the space out because the HOA fee is high, and there will be cheaper places to rent. Why would I want that?
I could move to fountain square and find a 2 bed 2 bath house with more sq footage and a smaller monthly payment.
I’d love to buy in mass ave. I’ve rented here for 5 years no. But there’s no way in hell I’ll be able to afford a livable space
Houses in Chatham Arch are pending in 24/48 hours. Not sure what market you think is soft, but it’s not Mass Ave. Condos on Mass Ave are overpriced for the economy. Add on crazy HOA fees, people are more hesitant.
My luxury condo just off Mass Ave has a $300 HOA.
Any chance you’d PM me the name of the building? Moving next year.
Not true. Literally not true
I pulled actual Center Township condo sales from the last year to check the “is this market dead?” feeling.
Short answer: it’s not dead, but it’s very price- and building-specific.
Across Center Township there were about 155 condo sales in the last 12 months. The typical condo sold around $310–315K, took about a month to go under contract, and closed at roughly 97% of list price. That’s a functioning market.
Where things slow down is at the edges. Condos under ~$250K and those pushing $600K+ tend to sit longer — not because they’re bad properties, but because the buyer pool gets much smaller once monthly costs and HOA fees really add up.
Mass Ave in particular is tricky because performance varies a lot by building, not just by location. In the same stretch you’ll see one unit sell quickly while another sits, depending on layout, fees, finishes, and price expectations.
So when it feels quiet, it’s often less about demand disappearing and more about pricing and expectations not matching today’s buyers.
Thank you so much for such a well-reasoned and informed answer. That makes a ton of sense. Much appreciated!
Bottleworks isn’t exactly like your local pub. Seems to always be full of the convention/sport fans. Quite honestly, the vibe of Mass Ave has changed so much since Liberty Street closed.
Liberty Street is open lol
also the liberty street owners literally complained to the paper when they closed mass ave to cars during covid that their clientele were suburban drivers lol
and also if your idea of Classic Mass Ave is fucking liberty street, i'm sorry but i will not be listening to your opinions about what ails mass ave
Luna Music + Mass Ave Video combo represent. I loved the basement vinyl section at that Luna. Way, way before the vinyl craze and it was like a secret stash of records.
Honestly saddens me how many people comment on Indy subreddit and have zero clue about the city. Like why are you even here?
There are a few ways to think about this:
Are you selling now or soon? If not then don’t stress about it. Markets go up and down; cool and heat up.
If you are selling and you happen to sell at a loss. Consider what you would have spent renting. For example: if you bought at 400 and sold 3 years later at 390 you have paid 10k to live there for 3 years. A unit in the building probably rents for 2k/mo. Or 72k over the same time frame. This also ignores any equity.
Not planning on selling anytime soon, and I'm pretty sure I'd take a bath if I did. I think I was just getting a tad anxious about the market, since this area seemed on the upswing just 18 months ago. Thanks for the reassurance. I'll worry about it in 5 years. 🙂
Boomer 401k, what a great investment.
Maybe worse, venture capital.. I think the sitcom dream is dead in this economy. Replaced by a dystopia Nelsen Algren novel.
I think it just comes down to that the suburbs in Indy area do a good job of providing an alternative to downtown’s lifestyle. Commute to downtown from any of the suburbs isn’t that bad in comparison to other cities as well.
People that actually are from Indy can't afford to live there because people like you are coming in with wayyyy too much money and perpetuating a horrendous trend in real estate price spikes. Please move back to wherever you came from and let the nice people of Indianapolis have a chance at affording property.