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Are literal 14 year olds posting stuff they think is deep now?
I've noticed this is happening to other subs too. You get waves of users who don't understand the sub and then it becomes something completely different. r/madlads has become r/clevercomebacks with a bit of r/iamverybadass in there.
That or bots who "think" this is what the sub is for.
I've also seen actual commenters though being confused saying "aren't you all 14 here? why are you all talking about work life?" so I guess many don't read the description and get the wrong idea.
Who says anything about harboring hate? Suppose I’ve completely forgotten about some shithead, then they pop back in my life years later and wanna act all friendly, and then I say “you just gonna act like you never wrecked my car?” And they say “that was so long ago, don’t hold a grudge.” Fuck that, APOLOGIZE.
Having a grudge isn't the same as wanting to distance yourself from someone. You can still choose to stay away from certain people for any reason. Holding a grudge against someone is about that person being someone who makes you upset that you think about often. In your scenario, you can just walk away or explain that you don't want to talk, and if they ask why, you don't have to answer them, simple
A grudge isn't just remembering someone fucked you over. It's actively maintaining that feeling of hatred and injustice about the situation. As a word it's like, defined by its bitterness.
Some idiot using it that way doesn't mean they're correct.
Edit: for those downvoting, if you look at a definition on various sites, you'll see something like "a persistent feeling of ill will or resentment resulting from a past insult or injury." or similar. The term "grudge" in this context is defined by the feelings it involves, in this case, resentment, bitterness, hatred.
There's no point in arguing against the groupthink. This sub used to be about making fun of kids who think they are smart but now it's become infested by an angry breed of them lmao.
Pretty sure one kid just spamming my inbox 'cause I blocked him based on the usernames.
That's kind of how I see it. Not holding a grudge doesn't necessarily mean forgiving and forgetting, It means emotionally distancing yourself from the wrongs you've suffered in the past over time. If we held on to every single bad thing others did to us we would simply never grow.
IDK how you're equating this tweet to mean you "harbour hate" or "have the energy to be mad" towards someone. It just means you haven't forgiven someone for something
If you can't move on and just forget about something then you are still harbouring some kind of bad feeling over it, hate/anger/frustration/w.e. The specific word is inconsequential. If you're upset enough with someone that you need an apology from them or are making twitter posts about it, you obviously are letting those feelings have some semblance of control on your life.
It sounds like you've never been wronged in your life..
If someone assaulted you, robbed you and stole $5000 from you, why on earth would you forgive them for that because X duration of time passed? There are many more horrible examples I could provide, but I don't think that's necessary
I didn't address what you said because there is no point in drawing out a conversation with someone who's going to use extreme examples as some kind of trump card. It's some random girls tweet that's probably about some ex boyfriend or friend who slighted them. Like come on, use your head a little here.
Even in the case of someone robbing and assaulting me, no I don't want an apology. I want them to be held accountable for their crimes and face the corresponding punishment. If you want someone to engage your comments maybe try saying shit that is worth responding to instead of just trying to be a typical contrarian Redditor.
That’s such an interesting way of telling everyone you know you’re wrong and have nothing but aren’t mature enough to admit it. “There is not point in drawing out a conversation. Here is a novel of a response though” lol
I didn't address what you said because there is no point in drawing out a conversation with someone who's going to use extreme examples as some kind of trump card.
and yet you're still responding.
you say it's so easy to let go... why can't you let go?
And all actual logic says forgiveness without an apology just incentivizes wrongdoers to hedge their bets and hope people forget about your transgressions.
Depends on what you mean by forgiveness. I think it just means you are willing to work with at least tolerate the person who wronged you, albeit maybe with some extra space between you. In that case yes withholding forgiveness is a grudge. But if by forgiveness you mean that person going back to being for partner,friend, or family almost as if nothing ever happened(which what I would call reconcilliation), then in that case I don't think witholding forgivness is a grudge.
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
Ok, but this is not the prisoner's dilemma. This is real life, with more variables. Variables like the fact that human beings are fundamentally unpredictable, and people cannot be shoved into neat little boxes and roles in a "game".
The point of the tit for tat strategy is that it’s predictable. That predictability inspires safety and trust while also saying that you won’t be a doormat. It’s also just a very fair strategy. It’s essentially just saying that I will mirror the energy you give me.
The rational reason to hold a grudge is to deny someone with a history of wronging you the opportunity to continue to do so. Giving the offender the means to continue to offend will typically cause far more harm to the victim than holding a grudge that denies them that opportunity.
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
You're operating with an overly narrow definition of grudge here. But even if I were to grant that to you, the OOP remains true: time passing is not an apology. It is not "holding a grudge" to still be waiting for that attempt at atonement.
Basic game theory says that holding grudges deters future offenses. Yes, they harm you now, but the public knowledge that you will pursue grudges even to your own detriment can be a powerful deterrent.
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
I honestly hope you're being sporty and not serious, because that is literally a ludicrous, albeit decent sounding argument
Enforcing boundaries with proportional punishment is not a grudge
That's not how wars work, at all, among the other things; war is never tit-for-tat, and that's namely why I'm calling your statement ludicrous. And, law within borders doesn't work proportionally, one way or the other, for the whole. Punishments can be greater, lesser or independent of an offense. Even though men can be raped in prison, that's not part of the states' philosophy -- which I think you're trying to put or paraphrase in your own words -- when it comes to judicial/legal punishment. Also, we largely do not support the death penalty today; as for the entire course of time, there is no consistent method of punishment; furthermore, even if there was a death penalty, it's (practically speaking) NEVER eye-for-an-eye in terms of inflicting and reciprocating suffering. Also, people can, or have been imprisoned for life for political crimes. Otherwise, people can be pardoned, as well; so, at the very least, if you want to be honest, you need to recognize that law and order can be CAPRICIOUS, rather than merely arbitrary (💁♀️ judges are called, or may be called arbiters of the law, though they may not be the only ones in the entire practice of law in the world; court marshaling may be another matter, for example), and it only takes 2 eyes to recognize THAT. Moreover, it would be preposterous to claim law or war is never capricious unless you're trying to grandstand some point for the sake of some depraved political science position.
even if they have tried to atone for what they have done
Not sure what atonement has to do with anything. To me, anyways, you can begrudge anyone in any given moment for any single thing, including ones where atonement would be an impossibility (simply because the person or official seeking to create the grudge was being so petty)... which, come to think about it, seems to be where you're getting the inspiration to cook up, or tie in this notion, moreover idealization, about proportionality from... truly it would only be in the eyes and mouth of the state (ie. on the internet) that we say all humans are equal, as though you shouldn't show preference for friends and family, or even colleagues and co-workers, above anyone else.
Why didn’t I think of that? Give me a minute while I go spontaneously recover from my trauma. It’s not like I almost took my life because of this person (spoiler: my therapist said I was teetering on inpatient)
If we're talking about real life and relationships, psychological safety is (and should be) more important than any other gain or loss from interacting with someone. [usually]
If you take that into account in your reward function, the "harm" you are talking about becomes largely irrelevant.
First of all, I respectfully do not give a fuck that the offender's feelings are hurt. Second, saying "I'm not gonna let you back into my life because it is not safe to do so" is not holding a grudge. "Grudge" implies that whatever was said or done does not matter. It minimizes harm done.
My guy, no one sitting here thinking about game theory, emotions are emotions, how people made you feel sticks with you for a long long time whether you like it or not.
Never getting an apology is not the same thing as holding a grudge. And forgiveness doesn’t have to be apology dependent. You can forgive somebody before, while or long after they apologize or even if they never do. You can also never forgive them period.
Regardless, if you never experience an apology you can’t assume the person feels remorse or thinks differently or will act differently. You can’t assume so even with an apology until you see proof, but at least you have their word. Their word may count for more or less depending on their reputation. But without AT LEAST their word, you don’t really have a bridge to reconciliation or moving forward.
Holding a grudge means refusing to move past something and at least be civil. Without an apology you haven’t really been assisted in that.
I say all this to say: if someone tells you that you hold grudges in the situation I just described, they either have partial information, are stupid or have been lied to.
I upvoted because I actually agree with the idea. Definitely not 14 and deep, it’s honestly a pretty mature way to make sense of longstanding negative feelings.
You shouldn’t let people gaslight or guilt you into burying the hatchet just because a conflict is old. Sometimes people do things that just shouldn’t be forgiven. Sometimes people show their true colors and their actions are indicative of how they’re always gonna treat you. It’s that simple and you don’t need to feel guilty over it.
I actually downvoted the OP exactly because I agree with the post so it doesn't fit the sub at all. Especially with them saying amen, implying they also got the wrong sub.
Not how a grudge works. Forgiving someone doesn't necessarily mean throwing out any consequences. The only thing it entails is not dwelling on thinking about the people who make you upset. This post is a 14 idea
It's not true in every case, but it's definitely true in some cases. Not being 14-year-old-brained about it means being able to reasonably discern when it is and isn't applicable
I mean I think it depends not everyone who does that is just being childish it could be from trauma or just not being able to understand the person well enough to know if they’d repeat what they did in the past
Oh yeah, I was fully agreeing with you! Sure, could this be childish in a lot of cases? Yeah, but there's also a lot of cases in which there's no shame in still feeling hurt about the fact that you've been hurt, and saying "Fuck it, I'm done with your shit" to someone who's hurt you and still refuses to sincerely own up and apologize
"Why aren't you letting it go?" Oh, I did. I'm no longer mad. But It doesn't make logical sense to keep someone around if they've hurt you and haven't done anything to make restitution. I can't keep a relationship based off a pinkie promise.
My parents always said this to me but like…. Sorry that I as a child was hurting over people in my class lying to me and avoiding me with no explanation or apology?
It’s true though? People don’t change, the idea of forgiveness with time is very often toted by the people who wrong others to begin with because they can’t accept that they’re bad people
When I was a kid I saw a lot of therapists and social workers, and one of the things they’d say was “the opposite of hate isn’t love, it’s indifference.” Loving and hating someone both require keeping them in your thoughts. If payback isn’t an option, it’s usually better to just move on and not waste your energy on them.
You can hate someone and hold grudges without letting it control your life. There are a few people I feel extreme hatred towards but I’ve completely cut them out of my life and rarely think about them.
I haven’t remotely forgiven them and my hatred hasn’t lessened in the slightest. It’s just no longer something that occupies my mind daily when they were active in my life.
A grudge doesn’t mean I sit around angry all the time, it means I’ve made a conscious decision. I remember what happened, I haven’t forgiven it, and I’ve set a permanent boundary because of it.
It’s not emotional rumination, it’s resolved hostility. I don’t think about them because they no longer matter, not because the harm was insignificant or forgiven.
Lol. I've had a coworker start a fight with me, then the next day tell me that we need to "talk it out like adults", proceeds to insult me for a couple of hours during the "adult talk", then gave me the silent treatment for 6 months.
I don't even know what I did to upset them.
They held a grudge for 6 months because they're a spiteful unprofessional idiot, not because I didn't apologize. They didn't even tell me what I did wrong and should apologize for.
Remember kids, being mad at someone for like 10 years is kinda petty, except if they did something that made you see them in another light.
(I say this because oftentimes the abuser would do something terrible to the victim, the victim would then distance themselves and as time passes, the abuser might wanna try and minimize their wrongdoing by saying "it was so long ago, can you just get over it? Holding grudges is bad for you after all")
My exact response to that was “be the better person and forgive? How about you be the better person and apologize?” That ended the conversation pretty handily.
My uncle’s ex wife. Their kids, who are in their thirties/forties now, were having some get together and she wouldn’t go because he was going to be there. My dad was like “it’s been thirty years.”
There really is something so petty about holding on to that kind of resentment. I don’t like my uncle but he wasn’t an abuser (he’s a doormat in all his relationships). After decades you’re not open to seeing how people have changed or just putting down the hatchet for a day?
Time passing by itself doesn’t create an obligation to reconcile. A grudge doesn’t have to mean constant anger or emotional fixation, it can also be a settled decision based on past harm. Someone can move on with their life, be totally at peace, and still choose not to reopen a relationship they’ve already closed. That isn’t pettiness at all, it’s called a boundary.
Someone says “it’s been decades” or “people change” and I say “who cares? It’s irrelevant.” Change doesn’t automatically entitle someone to renewed access. Forgiveness and reconciliation are optional they are not, and will never be, mandatory milestones on a timeline.
As for the story you told, declining to attend one event isn’t the same as being consumed by resentment, it can just mean the person doesn’t see any value in revisiting that dynamic.
Not every grudge is about holding on to anger. Some are about remembering clearly, deciding once, and not spending any more emotional energy on it.
Edit: He blocked me and posted a reply quickly so I got the notification and couldn’t reply. There’s also a bit of irony in someone arguing that grudges are about avoiding uncomfortable emotions… and then resolving the discomfort by blocking instead of engaging.
Double edit: Someone sent me his post.
He said “I think it’s a lot more common that grudges are a way for people to avoid accountability, and the negative emotions they have about themselves. It’s just easier to put the full blame on someone else and then avoid them forever.”
You see kids, this is classic projection wrapped in a generalization. He’s framing all grudges as a coping mechanism for personal shortcomings. He’s basically saying, “anyone who holds a grudge is just avoiding their own feelings and blaming others,” which oh so conveniently ignores the possibility that a grudge can be a conscious, principled boundary and not a self-protective emotional crutch.
His argument is a psychologizing dodge, reframing my position as a character flaw so he doesn’t have to engage with the actual point I made. Instead of arguing what a grudge is, he pivots to why people have them, assigns a motive (“avoiding accountability” or w/e), and then treats that motive as universal. That’s not rebuttal at all, it’s projection dressed up as insight.
But my point still stands, you can hold a grudge without letting it consume you or reflect poorly on yourself. Some grudges are about maintaining clarity, accountability, and boundaries, not about escaping internal discomfort. The irony is that he blocked me instead of engaging, which is exactly the kind of avoidance he was criticizing.
I think it’s a lot more common that grudges are a way for people to avoid accountability, and the negative emotions they have about themselves. It’s just easier to put the full blame on someone else and then avoid them forever.
Tbh if i ever met my school bullies now i honestly could care less, i dont think theres any possible productivity on holding a grudge now even if theyre still shot people or became even shittier, its been so damn long since, what reason dp i bave? I'm not gonna forgive them, but like... whats the point of holding a grudge by then?
This sub isn't for teenagers to post things they think are deep. It's for the cringe and whiny, corny shit teenagers and stunted adults say that they think is profound.
I mean, this would be valid if we weren't all biased in some way. It makes sense to tell someone they hold their grudges far too long if that person is too caught up in their own perspective to ever think that maybe the other's intentions were not harmful
Facebook women are notoriously highly neurotic, not creative, and unintelligent. Rather than trying to decode what this means I spent time writing this comment!
The only one impacted by a grudge is you. It’s in everyone’s best interest to just let it go. You don’t have to forgive or forget, but harboring unnecessary hatred is just dumb. Do yourself a favor and drop it.
Not a healthy thing to do. You can totally don't have grudges (good thing), but don't apologize (if only their fault) or don't apologize fully (if both were bad). Being good to yourself and apologizing for others' doing are two very different things.
That's an immature take. That's why therapy is good.
Yes but as time passes you have to hold on to the grudge harder and harder to keep it going. Thats why those people still mad about shit 10 years later are looked down on as petty
one thing i found sad was i read a story one time of a woman who grew up her mother and her mothers sister hated each other had been going on for years
then one day she finally got the 2 of them in the same room and she asked them why do they hate each other
they both shockingly admitted they couldn't remember what started the feud or what it was even over just that they had a feud and hated each other
despite OP in that story pointing out how it's ridiculous to hate someone and you can't even remember why you hate them they still didn't budge smh
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What are we doing here guys. Just using this as a chatroom at this point?
Are literal 14 year olds posting stuff they think is deep now?
I've noticed this is happening to other subs too. You get waves of users who don't understand the sub and then it becomes something completely different. r/madlads has become r/clevercomebacks with a bit of r/iamverybadass in there.
That or bots who "think" this is what the sub is for.
I've also seen actual commenters though being confused saying "aren't you all 14 here? why are you all talking about work life?" so I guess many don't read the description and get the wrong idea.
I’m 14 and this is MSN
i mean this is a good take tho
I really gotta disagree. It's unhealthy to Harbour hate towards people, especially ones who don't care about you.
I got no time or energy to be mad at anyone who's fucked me over. I just cut them out and continue living my life.
I can have someone leave my mind without forgiving them
Some people definitely ain't worth neither a though, nor forgiveness, just being forgotten
Who says anything about harboring hate? Suppose I’ve completely forgotten about some shithead, then they pop back in my life years later and wanna act all friendly, and then I say “you just gonna act like you never wrecked my car?” And they say “that was so long ago, don’t hold a grudge.” Fuck that, APOLOGIZE.
Having a grudge isn't the same as wanting to distance yourself from someone. You can still choose to stay away from certain people for any reason. Holding a grudge against someone is about that person being someone who makes you upset that you think about often. In your scenario, you can just walk away or explain that you don't want to talk, and if they ask why, you don't have to answer them, simple
A grudge is harbouring hate.
A grudge isn't just remembering someone fucked you over. It's actively maintaining that feeling of hatred and injustice about the situation. As a word it's like, defined by its bitterness.
Some idiot using it that way doesn't mean they're correct.
Edit: for those downvoting, if you look at a definition on various sites, you'll see something like "a persistent feeling of ill will or resentment resulting from a past insult or injury." or similar. The term "grudge" in this context is defined by the feelings it involves, in this case, resentment, bitterness, hatred.
There's no point in arguing against the groupthink. This sub used to be about making fun of kids who think they are smart but now it's become infested by an angry breed of them lmao.
Pretty sure one kid just spamming my inbox 'cause I blocked him based on the usernames.
That's kind of how I see it. Not holding a grudge doesn't necessarily mean forgiving and forgetting, It means emotionally distancing yourself from the wrongs you've suffered in the past over time. If we held on to every single bad thing others did to us we would simply never grow.
IDK how you're equating this tweet to mean you "harbour hate" or "have the energy to be mad" towards someone. It just means you haven't forgiven someone for something
If you can't move on and just forget about something then you are still harbouring some kind of bad feeling over it, hate/anger/frustration/w.e. The specific word is inconsequential. If you're upset enough with someone that you need an apology from them or are making twitter posts about it, you obviously are letting those feelings have some semblance of control on your life.
It sounds like you've never been wronged in your life..
If someone assaulted you, robbed you and stole $5000 from you, why on earth would you forgive them for that because X duration of time passed? There are many more horrible examples I could provide, but I don't think that's necessary
Yes, nobody has ever wronged me in my entire life. That what you want me to say?
You have a nice day.
I'm pointing out the obvious absurdity of what you're saying... Which you've chosen to not address. Understood. Have a nice day.
I didn't address what you said because there is no point in drawing out a conversation with someone who's going to use extreme examples as some kind of trump card. It's some random girls tweet that's probably about some ex boyfriend or friend who slighted them. Like come on, use your head a little here.
Even in the case of someone robbing and assaulting me, no I don't want an apology. I want them to be held accountable for their crimes and face the corresponding punishment. If you want someone to engage your comments maybe try saying shit that is worth responding to instead of just trying to be a typical contrarian Redditor.
You don't need to use extreme examples to think of something that shouldn't be forgiven just because time has passed...
The tweet isn't about wanting an apology.. It's about not forgiving people simply because time has passed. Very big difference.
Edit: Of course the dude blocked me lol
The tweet is clearly not about wanting an apology
Your logic that the tweet must be about wanting an apology because the sentence includes the word "apology" is bizaare and obviously incorrect lol
The tweet is 8 words and one of them is apology.
That’s such an interesting way of telling everyone you know you’re wrong and have nothing but aren’t mature enough to admit it. “There is not point in drawing out a conversation. Here is a novel of a response though” lol
and yet you're still responding.
you say it's so easy to let go... why can't you let go?
'saw "live laugh love" at a household decoration dime store once' take.
My bullies would probably love if I forgot them and kms, but nah I'm going to continue living just to spite them.
You're not hating correctly
Skill issue I will undertake a decade long revenge plot that dismantles Parisian nobility from the inside out for the wrongs done to me.
Not imo. Basic game theory says that there really isn't any rational reason to hold grudges. They just harm both the victim and offender.
“Basic game theory” is 90% of time cited in a stupid manner that isn’t helpful to anyone involved in the situation
You will be surprised to learn that spite actually plays an important part in game theory.
It's rational that people are spiteful above a certain threshold because it keeps people from trying to cheat them.
And all actual logic says forgiveness without an apology just incentivizes wrongdoers to hedge their bets and hope people forget about your transgressions.
Does not forgiving someone equate to holding a grudge? I've always considered a grudge a far more active thing than just not forgiving someone.
I believe the hypothetical person being quoted in the OOP is supposed to be calling a lack of forgiveness a grudge.
That's a good point and I think you're right.
Depends on what you mean by forgiveness. I think it just means you are willing to work with at least tolerate the person who wronged you, albeit maybe with some extra space between you. In that case yes withholding forgiveness is a grudge. But if by forgiveness you mean that person going back to being for partner,friend, or family almost as if nothing ever happened(which what I would call reconcilliation), then in that case I don't think witholding forgivness is a grudge.
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
What the fuck is game theory in this context?
The prisoners dilemma done over and over again. The most optimal strategy is a more generous form of tit for tat.
Ok, but this is not the prisoner's dilemma. This is real life, with more variables. Variables like the fact that human beings are fundamentally unpredictable, and people cannot be shoved into neat little boxes and roles in a "game".
The point of the tit for tat strategy is that it’s predictable. That predictability inspires safety and trust while also saying that you won’t be a doormat. It’s also just a very fair strategy. It’s essentially just saying that I will mirror the energy you give me.
Game theory is for people who want to achieve positive reults in literally anything.
The rational reason to hold a grudge is to deny someone with a history of wronging you the opportunity to continue to do so. Giving the offender the means to continue to offend will typically cause far more harm to the victim than holding a grudge that denies them that opportunity.
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
You're operating with an overly narrow definition of grudge here. But even if I were to grant that to you, the OOP remains true: time passing is not an apology. It is not "holding a grudge" to still be waiting for that attempt at atonement.
Basic game theory says that holding grudges deters future offenses. Yes, they harm you now, but the public knowledge that you will pursue grudges even to your own detriment can be a powerful deterrent.
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
The situation given is that the transgressor hasn't tried to atone, though. Furthermore, you have misdefined what a grudge is. For reference:
grudge /ɡrəj/ noun
a persistent feeling of ill will or resentment resulting from a past insult or injury. -Oxford Languages
It doesn't say anything about taking any action at all.
game theory speaks for the players rather than civilization
its common knowledge that we punish criminals, or that the statute of limitation lasts for decades
nobody speaks up about the state holding grudges, or holding grudges against the state - like with the case around slavery among many other things
Enforcing bounderies with proportional punishment is not a grudge. A grudge would be deliberately refusing to work with or going out of your way to hurt someone who has transgressed against you, even if they have tried to atone for what they have done.
I honestly hope you're being sporty and not serious, because that is literally a ludicrous, albeit decent sounding argument
That's not how wars work, at all, among the other things; war is never tit-for-tat, and that's namely why I'm calling your statement ludicrous. And, law within borders doesn't work proportionally, one way or the other, for the whole. Punishments can be greater, lesser or independent of an offense. Even though men can be raped in prison, that's not part of the states' philosophy -- which I think you're trying to put or paraphrase in your own words -- when it comes to judicial/legal punishment. Also, we largely do not support the death penalty today; as for the entire course of time, there is no consistent method of punishment; furthermore, even if there was a death penalty, it's (practically speaking) NEVER eye-for-an-eye in terms of inflicting and reciprocating suffering. Also, people can, or have been imprisoned for life for political crimes. Otherwise, people can be pardoned, as well; so, at the very least, if you want to be honest, you need to recognize that law and order can be CAPRICIOUS, rather than merely arbitrary (💁♀️ judges are called, or may be called arbiters of the law, though they may not be the only ones in the entire practice of law in the world; court marshaling may be another matter, for example), and it only takes 2 eyes to recognize THAT. Moreover, it would be preposterous to claim law or war is never capricious unless you're trying to grandstand some point for the sake of some depraved political science position.
Not sure what atonement has to do with anything. To me, anyways, you can begrudge anyone in any given moment for any single thing, including ones where atonement would be an impossibility (simply because the person or official seeking to create the grudge was being so petty)... which, come to think about it, seems to be where you're getting the inspiration to cook up, or tie in this notion, moreover idealization, about proportionality from... truly it would only be in the eyes and mouth of the state (ie. on the internet) that we say all humans are equal, as though you shouldn't show preference for friends and family, or even colleagues and co-workers, above anyone else.
no, basic game theory says that if someone doesn't say of do anything to indicate that they have changed their ways, they may very well do it again
Why didn’t I think of that? Give me a minute while I go spontaneously recover from my trauma. It’s not like I almost took my life because of this person (spoiler: my therapist said I was teetering on inpatient)
"Basic game theory" mfs when advanced game theory comes into play:
If we're talking about real life and relationships, psychological safety is (and should be) more important than any other gain or loss from interacting with someone. [usually]
If you take that into account in your reward function, the "harm" you are talking about becomes largely irrelevant.
First of all, I respectfully do not give a fuck that the offender's feelings are hurt. Second, saying "I'm not gonna let you back into my life because it is not safe to do so" is not holding a grudge. "Grudge" implies that whatever was said or done does not matter. It minimizes harm done.
My guy, no one sitting here thinking about game theory, emotions are emotions, how people made you feel sticks with you for a long long time whether you like it or not.
Never getting an apology is not the same thing as holding a grudge. And forgiveness doesn’t have to be apology dependent. You can forgive somebody before, while or long after they apologize or even if they never do. You can also never forgive them period.
Regardless, if you never experience an apology you can’t assume the person feels remorse or thinks differently or will act differently. You can’t assume so even with an apology until you see proof, but at least you have their word. Their word may count for more or less depending on their reputation. But without AT LEAST their word, you don’t really have a bridge to reconciliation or moving forward.
Holding a grudge means refusing to move past something and at least be civil. Without an apology you haven’t really been assisted in that.
I say all this to say: if someone tells you that you hold grudges in the situation I just described, they either have partial information, are stupid or have been lied to.
Low key a good take tbh
I legit fully agree with this
What if you never see the person ever again?
Apology accepted.
Die unreconciled.
This isnt corny this is just true
I upvoted because I actually agree with the idea. Definitely not 14 and deep, it’s honestly a pretty mature way to make sense of longstanding negative feelings.
You shouldn’t let people gaslight or guilt you into burying the hatchet just because a conflict is old. Sometimes people do things that just shouldn’t be forgiven. Sometimes people show their true colors and their actions are indicative of how they’re always gonna treat you. It’s that simple and you don’t need to feel guilty over it.
I actually downvoted the OP exactly because I agree with the post so it doesn't fit the sub at all. Especially with them saying amen, implying they also got the wrong sub.
Not how a grudge works. Forgiving someone doesn't necessarily mean throwing out any consequences. The only thing it entails is not dwelling on thinking about the people who make you upset. This post is a 14 idea
That's true
I mean…. Maybe they were trying to be deep but if they just casually said it they wouldn’t be wrong
It's not true in every case, but it's definitely true in some cases. Not being 14-year-old-brained about it means being able to reasonably discern when it is and isn't applicable
I mean I think it depends not everyone who does that is just being childish it could be from trauma or just not being able to understand the person well enough to know if they’d repeat what they did in the past
Oh yeah, I was fully agreeing with you! Sure, could this be childish in a lot of cases? Yeah, but there's also a lot of cases in which there's no shame in still feeling hurt about the fact that you've been hurt, and saying "Fuck it, I'm done with your shit" to someone who's hurt you and still refuses to sincerely own up and apologize
"Why aren't you letting it go?" Oh, I did. I'm no longer mad. But It doesn't make logical sense to keep someone around if they've hurt you and haven't done anything to make restitution. I can't keep a relationship based off a pinkie promise.
My parents always said this to me but like…. Sorry that I as a child was hurting over people in my class lying to me and avoiding me with no explanation or apology?
This is just real
This is just saying something, its like saying someone who said "you shouldn't mix cleaning chemicals" is trying to be deep
It’s true though? People don’t change, the idea of forgiveness with time is very often toted by the people who wrong others to begin with because they can’t accept that they’re bad people
Wdym people dont change?
Lmao. Are you the same person you were at 18?
Time isnt a way to get forgiveness but people absolutely can and do change. All the time. Not always for the better tho.
When I was a kid I saw a lot of therapists and social workers, and one of the things they’d say was “the opposite of hate isn’t love, it’s indifference.” Loving and hating someone both require keeping them in your thoughts. If payback isn’t an option, it’s usually better to just move on and not waste your energy on them.
You can hate someone and hold grudges without letting it control your life. There are a few people I feel extreme hatred towards but I’ve completely cut them out of my life and rarely think about them.
I haven’t remotely forgiven them and my hatred hasn’t lessened in the slightest. It’s just no longer something that occupies my mind daily when they were active in my life.
Then it's not a grudge, you just don't like those people. I feel like I'm starting to question my own understanding of a grudge from these comments
A grudge doesn’t mean I sit around angry all the time, it means I’ve made a conscious decision. I remember what happened, I haven’t forgiven it, and I’ve set a permanent boundary because of it.
It’s not emotional rumination, it’s resolved hostility. I don’t think about them because they no longer matter, not because the harm was insignificant or forgiven.
Lol. I've had a coworker start a fight with me, then the next day tell me that we need to "talk it out like adults", proceeds to insult me for a couple of hours during the "adult talk", then gave me the silent treatment for 6 months.
I don't even know what I did to upset them.
They held a grudge for 6 months because they're a spiteful unprofessional idiot, not because I didn't apologize. They didn't even tell me what I did wrong and should apologize for.
ok this one is just true
Right to the point with no cheese additions. I personally don't think it's so bad it needs to be here.
This is true and fine.
100% agreed
Remember, kids. You do more harm to yourself holding grudges than whoever it was that caused it
The Great Book of Grudges remains full.
help this post turned me 14
this is just good take (or bad as some seem to think, but it doesnt change that), this isnt an r/im14andthisideep
Remember kids, being mad at someone for like 10 years is kinda petty, except if they did something that made you see them in another light.
(I say this because oftentimes the abuser would do something terrible to the victim, the victim would then distance themselves and as time passes, the abuser might wanna try and minimize their wrongdoing by saying "it was so long ago, can you just get over it? Holding grudges is bad for you after all")
My exact response to that was “be the better person and forgive? How about you be the better person and apologize?” That ended the conversation pretty handily.
My uncle’s ex wife. Their kids, who are in their thirties/forties now, were having some get together and she wouldn’t go because he was going to be there. My dad was like “it’s been thirty years.”
There really is something so petty about holding on to that kind of resentment. I don’t like my uncle but he wasn’t an abuser (he’s a doormat in all his relationships). After decades you’re not open to seeing how people have changed or just putting down the hatchet for a day?
Short answer: No.
Long answer:
Time passing by itself doesn’t create an obligation to reconcile. A grudge doesn’t have to mean constant anger or emotional fixation, it can also be a settled decision based on past harm. Someone can move on with their life, be totally at peace, and still choose not to reopen a relationship they’ve already closed. That isn’t pettiness at all, it’s called a boundary.
Someone says “it’s been decades” or “people change” and I say “who cares? It’s irrelevant.” Change doesn’t automatically entitle someone to renewed access. Forgiveness and reconciliation are optional they are not, and will never be, mandatory milestones on a timeline.
As for the story you told, declining to attend one event isn’t the same as being consumed by resentment, it can just mean the person doesn’t see any value in revisiting that dynamic.
Not every grudge is about holding on to anger. Some are about remembering clearly, deciding once, and not spending any more emotional energy on it.
Edit: He blocked me and posted a reply quickly so I got the notification and couldn’t reply. There’s also a bit of irony in someone arguing that grudges are about avoiding uncomfortable emotions… and then resolving the discomfort by blocking instead of engaging.
Double edit: Someone sent me his post.
He said “I think it’s a lot more common that grudges are a way for people to avoid accountability, and the negative emotions they have about themselves. It’s just easier to put the full blame on someone else and then avoid them forever.”
You see kids, this is classic projection wrapped in a generalization. He’s framing all grudges as a coping mechanism for personal shortcomings. He’s basically saying, “anyone who holds a grudge is just avoiding their own feelings and blaming others,” which oh so conveniently ignores the possibility that a grudge can be a conscious, principled boundary and not a self-protective emotional crutch.
His argument is a psychologizing dodge, reframing my position as a character flaw so he doesn’t have to engage with the actual point I made. Instead of arguing what a grudge is, he pivots to why people have them, assigns a motive (“avoiding accountability” or w/e), and then treats that motive as universal. That’s not rebuttal at all, it’s projection dressed up as insight.
But my point still stands, you can hold a grudge without letting it consume you or reflect poorly on yourself. Some grudges are about maintaining clarity, accountability, and boundaries, not about escaping internal discomfort. The irony is that he blocked me instead of engaging, which is exactly the kind of avoidance he was criticizing.
Hilarious.
I think it’s a lot more common that grudges are a way for people to avoid accountability, and the negative emotions they have about themselves. It’s just easier to put the full blame on someone else and then avoid them forever.
I prefer to live in peace & not hold grudges to the people who wronged me. But that’s just me tho✌️
I mean that's cool, I don't like to hold grudges. However I don't trust that person in the same way as before
Tbh if i ever met my school bullies now i honestly could care less, i dont think theres any possible productivity on holding a grudge now even if theyre still shot people or became even shittier, its been so damn long since, what reason dp i bave? I'm not gonna forgive them, but like... whats the point of holding a grudge by then?
Holding on to those angry feelings exhausts me so bad i cant hold a grudge man
This sub isn't for teenagers to post things they think are deep. It's for the cringe and whiny, corny shit teenagers and stunted adults say that they think is profound.
I mean, this would be valid if we weren't all biased in some way. It makes sense to tell someone they hold their grudges far too long if that person is too caught up in their own perspective to ever think that maybe the other's intentions were not harmful
Facebook women are notoriously highly neurotic, not creative, and unintelligent. Rather than trying to decode what this means I spent time writing this comment!
The only one impacted by a grudge is you. It’s in everyone’s best interest to just let it go. You don’t have to forgive or forget, but harboring unnecessary hatred is just dumb. Do yourself a favor and drop it.
Not a healthy thing to do. You can totally don't have grudges (good thing), but don't apologize (if only their fault) or don't apologize fully (if both were bad). Being good to yourself and apologizing for others' doing are two very different things.
That's an immature take. That's why therapy is good.
Yes but as time passes you have to hold on to the grudge harder and harder to keep it going. Thats why those people still mad about shit 10 years later are looked down on as petty
They could have some unresolved trauma, ptsd or something. You don't need to hold on to the grudge when someone gave you ptsd because it comes back.
one thing i found sad was i read a story one time of a woman who grew up her mother and her mothers sister hated each other had been going on for years
then one day she finally got the 2 of them in the same room and she asked them why do they hate each other
they both shockingly admitted they couldn't remember what started the feud or what it was even over just that they had a feud and hated each other
despite OP in that story pointing out how it's ridiculous to hate someone and you can't even remember why you hate them they still didn't budge smh
This isn’t really fitting of this subreddit bro