The person looking at your numbers matters. A LOT and it shows in the differences between Pete's Golf in Long Island vs. True Spec Golf.
TL;DR:
- One shop deleted miss-hits and saved best 3-5 shots, told me I should be 4 degrees upright and in a 105g Stiff (but that my swing speed was borderline regular / stiff);
- The other kept all the data, explained the timing difference between shaft profiles, and told me my 14-year-old Pings are still finem and tried to talk me out of buying new clubs, unless I was really itching to just spend money.
Swing Speed: ~89 MPH with a 7 irons
True Spec (6-iron)
- Shafts: Modus 105 and KBS $Taper. Fitter claimed $Taper is the same as my OG KBS Tours (it's not).
- Shaft Fit: Labeled me "borderline Regular / Stiff" and wanted me in 105g shafts.
- Data: They only saved my 3–5 best shots. They deleted any misses or "imperfect" strikes, which completely skewed the averages and ignored my actual dispersion.
- Lie: Every shot was already left (1.5-2.5 yards), yet they recommended 4° upright because I'm toe down at impact. They couldn't explain why I'd go more upright if my start line was already left of the target.
- Focused On: Chased Smash Factor and roll-out. Claimed I "wouldn't hold greens." based on the rollout (10 yards) on the GC Quad. Referenced peak height a bit, but cared more about rollout. Pushed certain brands pretty hard.
Pete’s Golf (7-iron)
- The Shafts: Stuck to 120g+. Tested KBS Tour Stiff, Project X Stiff, and Nippon Modus 120 X-Stiff.
- Shaft Fit: Put me in 120g X-Stiff.
- Data: Kept every shot. We looked at the real-world dispersion and the "why" behind the misses.
- Lie: Recommended Standard. Talked about Dynamic Loft to evaluate the delivery, explaining that my numbers were optimal at standard and that going upright was counterproductive to my start line.
Focused On: My Ping irons from 2010 with the first every KBS iron shaft, were perfectly fine. Talked though how things like the tech in players distance irons would be a bad call for me because of distance distribution problems based on how well I strike the ball.
Nippon 120X vs. Project X They actually explained exactly why the Nippon won out for my swing as the Project X was about 1.7-2.5 yards left on strikes and the Nippon was 0.5-1.5 yards left.
The Takeaway True Spec tried to fit perfect data into a theoretical window by chasing weight and deleting misses. Pete’s fit the shaft profile to my actual delivery and used Dynamic Loft to prove why I didn't need to mess with lie angles.
Thanks for the info Pete
Pete’s golf knows their stuff. Just goes to show.
Most local fitters are better than a chain. They make their money on repeat customers and referrals. True Spec assumes you are one and done.
That being said, I see nothing wrong with deleting bad miss-hits. But they need to be true miss-hits at the end of day you need to know tour distance and dispersion with your normal shots including slight miss-hits.
If you don’t fix the toe down problem you’re going to have miss-hits. Once you start striking the ball better your mind will make the adjustment or you change your target.
I took a lesson to fix the shanks. Coach told me when I got on the course, I’d probably hit the ball left but my mind would make the adjustment. Boy was he right, 1st couple of swings were way left. But by the 4th hole I was hitting everything on my intended lie.
People just don’t understand that a professional fit might take months.
Into the wind, wet, dry, firm soft conditions. Fitters like CC and True Spec are trying to get you to pay money right now.
All the data could leading towards you re-trying a club head and shaft combination again, but they don’t have the time to go back.
The confirmation bias is constant. Bad swings completely force you to discount the equipment so you land on what you swung better… by comparison.
Can you explain the could take months portion? Are you saying you’d need to go a few times before every purchasing clubs and then you may need a few more times to make small adjustments?
Go to a range session with pen and paper.
Count how many times without stopping for 40-50 shots you flush or semi flush one.
As you improve that number gets higher and higher obviously.
Use that logic and apply it towards fitting.
I’m curious what you did to fix the “S” word. I do that all the time with my wedges for some reason and can’t fix it.
Was a long time ago. Only thing I remember was he narrowed my stance to stop my swaying. I think it was a much mental as it was physical.
Very helpful, thanaks
Taking out bad shots isn’t an inherently bad practice as it helps to measure solely what the club is doing as you change components. That being said, personally I could easily make a case to a client why they’d choose one club over another because they took 5 swings to get 3 good shots vs 10 swings to get 3 good shots.
What you’re describing is the difference between something like Golftec that has a computer system making club recommendations vs a more boutique fitting experience from a more knowledgeable fitter. Not that Golftec or tour spec is bad or not doing a good job, but they have very different philosophies of how to fit people to clubs.
When I worked at Golftec I usually ignored what the computer wanted me to do. It wasn’t far off, but I focused more on fittings and could make better recommendations than our computers. We were taught how to do fittings over one day in our training sessions and the training was basically just to do what the computer said. Thankfully I watched a ton of txg and was really interested in club building and fittings so I did a ton of my own research outside of work.
I’d be questioning everything the first shop said after they were trying to tell you that a 90mph swing speed is borderline reg flex and you need a lighter shaft. Average for the pga is like 92mph 😅
And that’s the crazy thing too. You can’t just use swing speed. When I got fit I couldn’t believe I went from regular flex to X-stiff because if you look at just swing speed I should’ve probably been in stiff. But because I have a quick/harsh transition to my downswing, lesser flex shafts were flexing too much and the XS helped that. Not to mention there’s no standard between companies so one mfgs XS might be another’s stiff.
After that first fitting, I vowed to never buy a club off the shelf again. I couldn’t believe how much difference just the shaft alone can make.
Tbf, that's exactly the case with Modus 120X. It's not the stiffest of the extra-stiff, for sure. If it works for you, it works for you.
I kinda dig how opaque some club companies make the weight and stiffness labels. I know what my clubs are and that's enough. PITA when sorting through the used rack though, lol.
That’s definitely true, lots to consider based on how you deliver the club, but based on what op described as his mess, (pulls with a heavy shaft) going softer and lighter doesn’t make a lot of sense. From my experience the miss with a shaft that’s to heavy/stiff is more of a push and you can struggle getting the ball in the air
same for me. I told the fitter i'm not too proud if sr/lite flex is the answer since my swing is that slow. (i carry an 11w. I have no shame) fitted into stiff steel (DG 115 Mid S300).
The 4* up clubs are also a red flag if OP is standard today and not directionally challenged. That’s really upright! I think I would’ve asked for a lie board.
I mean 90 is probably borderline reg if it's driver swing speed, so if fitter was new and hastily trained they probably made that mistake? Still a bad call but more understandable if that's what happened
If the fitter is making that mistake then yea he might need to go through training one more time. There are a ton of other metrics he’d have to miss to make that mistake, ball speed, carry etc for a 7 iron.
My 7i is also around 90mph.
The first time I got fit I went the heavier way, 120g KBS stiff. Now I have Nippon Stiff that are 103g. I like it so much more. Really is your preference. I have a slow backswing and real late kick so I like the feel and flip of the Nippon compared to the heavier and higher kick point KBS's I have.
Pete's is supposed to be amazing. Jon Sherman is constantly talking about how great Woody Lashen and the rest of them are.
Glad you found a more efficient solution than what you already had.
4° upright reccomendation absolutely bonkers. Horror show from that fitter
This post is brought to you by: Pete's Golf. Get your fitting today! Tell them Reddit sent you.
Pete's golf is the spot.
TLDR, the big box store just wants your money while the small shop tries to make you a better golfer
Pete's is the way to go...
Pete's was supposed to fit me a couple years ago but had a death in the family so Sonny stepped in and looked through my bag as soon as I walked in. He asked me my miss and what I'd like from my ball flight instead. I was 6 degrees toe down with my irons and shaft (DG S300).
Put me in Modus 120X and Project X Rifle, just like you, to neutralize shaft droop as much as possible. Then tinkered into KBS but I preferred the feel of the Rifles.
Then we started moving loft and lie around until we were in a good spot. At 1 up.
He then gave me a couple of swing recommendations to try to improve path and mechanics.
We talked about what type of clubs I should be looking for and he sent me on my way.
Since when is 89mph swing speed boarder line regular and stiff?
When you’re confusing 7i for Driver
Definitely different strategies when I did my driver once we had the final couple options locked in I hit 12 shots with each going 6-6-6-6-6-6 we then deleted my best two and worst two of each to show what my most probable result with each was.
Oh no lol. I was already suspecting non stiff/x stiff shafts are mostly a sales gimmick for any man that can swing a non geriatric speed. The goal of golf is to tighten up dispersion and noodle shafts do not do that.
While I think 4° up is excessive, if toe is down at impact, you want to be more upright. You don't use lie angle to adjust direction. If you are hitting it left every time, with toe down, you have an alignment problem.
And I'd ask the other guy why someone that strikes the ball really well would have more issues with distance control than someone who was all over the face. Seems completely backwards.
About 1.7 - 2.5 yards dispersion sounds like PGA skill. Maybe I’m misunderstanding how you phrased it.
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TrueSpec is like any other chain that relies on bs when fitting people. Not only are 3 - 5 best shots not statistically significant, the whole point of a fitting is to understand the spectrum of performance you are getting.
The reason why it's so difficult to recommend fitters is because it's up to the user to be informed as to the thought process behind the fit. It's like buying a car, either you're prepared or you're not.
First, fitter’s can make an argument for whatever they choose. Let’s use the number of shots used as an example:
You hit 10 balls. 5 are really good and average 165 for a 7i. 3 are marginal but they bring the average to 160. 2 are awful strikes that bring the average down to 150. You could make the argument that you average 150 for that 7i. Now when you go play, which yardage are you using for a 7i?
From my perspective, Pete’s was much better informed about what the numbers actually mean. 4° upright trying to fix a toe down strike is nuts. Trying to go lighter to get a better descent angle is also just lazy. (Side note: who uses rollout? Green firmness is not uniform so those numbers would definitely change in the wild.)
Finding a fitter you trust is tough but when you find one, stay with them.
X stiff at 89mph is a bit much IMO. Usually like low-mid 90s for that, especially since speeds in a fitting setting are almost always higher than typical swing speeds on course (5min between swings, not 15 seconds).
That much toe down should be worked on via your swing not jacking up your clubs to fit it, otherwise you'll never get better. That said, you being that far toe down and NOT wanting to change anything because of start line impacts of lie angle is an incorrect way to approach it IMO.
Pete’s golf is the best!
I’m really glad I saw this. I’ve heard about Pete’s golf and heard they don’t try to sell you if you’re willing to be brand agnostic. I’m definitely going to make the trip
The distance distribution on players distance irons is horrifying and I hate it.
How the heck does ANYONE recommend XS with 89 mph swing speed?
If it’s 7 iron that’s about right with a faster transition. I’m anywhere from 89-92 mph for irons. About 108-111 mph for driver.
Irons are x stiff and driver is stiff.