Wow! What a crazy story. I’m confused and trying to piece things together but here’s some details I really appreciated and am pondering
When the citadel is explained it’s said that one of the levels has lights that forever shine until they don’t (or something along those lines) potentially stating that this traditionally medieval citadel is built on top of the bones of a more advanced building that came before it.
who took care of Triskelle when severian wasn’t? What’s the meaning of triskelle. When Severian has a dream his past master talks to him about how triskelle acted towards severian in a way that exemplified that first of the seven principles of governance which was attachment to the first of the monarch. What does that say about severian? Supposedly he’s writing from the base of the autarchy. Is he somehow “the first monarch” of Urth?
The gardens themselves are so crazy. How and why does the door disappear? and how are these gardens so vast, are they actually simulations?
After the avern thorn thing is thrown into severian why does it not drain him the way it did others? There’s also some description of the flower acting in a strange manner towards severian. What does this mean? Some kind of clue about who he is? How’s this tie into what Malrubius said about the seven principles in his dream?
When he pulls out the claw and it shines towards the moon and then a building in the sky appears I’m assuming it’s a huge space ship and the claw is some kind of important beacon.
The giant metal wall has windows in it with aliens toiling within that serve the autarch and can just look out at the people? The wall has a honeycomb like pattern inside of it, and is apparently incredibly complex. On top of that a man begins explaining the story of a dominant people who used these walls to protect themselves from the public they ruled over and a woman showed up with “beans” and threatened them and they tore her apart?
I’m confused and excited to continue.
Please post again after Claw.
I definitely will, can’t wait to start it tomorrow.
I love hearing your thoughts. I’m envious of the joy that comes with your first read. Continue, I think you’ll love it.
Love your thoughts so far, you picked up a lot more than I did on my first read through!
As someone else said please post after you finish claw.
I absolutely will! Thanks for the warm welcome.
Another thing I forgot to mention was when he went to meet the blind librarian he spoke to a man who was restoring paintings and there was a picture of an astronaut on the moon, severian mentioned that it was a view of the moon before it was terraformed and it’s not green. It blows my mind how much world building is being done in these small interactions. Also all these mentions of the sun dying and the new sun. I wonder what they mean and what the dying sun truly means for Urth as a whole.
Yeah I love that passage about the astronaut painting, made me realise how much Severian was telling me in his own way.
Yes, there is something different here from the moon in our world. In Chapter 1 of Shadow:
Ahh very interesting. I remember reading that and being confused at the time.
IRL, Saint Nilammon was a monk who did not want to become a bishop, so he hid in his room. That got mashed up with a legend of the first man on the moon being a "Neil A." who hid.
As you said, "The lights of the oubliette are of that ancient kind that is said to burn forever, though some have now gone out."
When I read it the second time I immediately recognized what the 'building in the sky' was. The first time it was the moment that I actually kind of turned my brain off at, it was so uncanny and unexplained that I decide to just take it all as Severian does and not think too hard about what is 'actually going on'. I read all five books that way, not trying to figure them out or even track all the unanswered questions.
Second read was a trip.
Regarding the citadel and its level of technology, the answer is actually in plain sight. I didn’t get it the first time either, but if you pay attention to the descriptions without making any assumptions, you’ll probably have the answer to your question
Can’t wait to delve deeper into this when I start claw. I recall Severian saying that the walls that surround Nessus are of the same material as the citadel. and the citadel is what those rulers who came before the Autarchy created in that story about the beans I think. Will make another post once I’m finished I’m excited to talk more
To clarify, the answer to the citadel’s level of technology is in plain sight in Shadow of the Torturer. 🙂
I’ll have to re read but all I can think of is all the torture machines the book detailed, and the one they used on Thecla that somehow shocks her and was meant to kill her over the course of a month. Maybe some kind of radiation torture device?
The penalty for adultery is strangulation, we are told of Allowin's Necklace, and we see a woman with a livid face (from choking). Thecla's 'Revolutionary' was a split personality mental effect, not radiation.
A minor background spoiler: Picture the scene in 2001 with the spinning space station that has a central docking port section and a habitat ring. Jonas says when he came back, their old spaceport was no longer in orbit. So, where is it now? Think carefully.
hm...
All of these are explained better in the subsequent books, or at least are contingent on information they reveal. I want to use spoiler tags to answer the floating building when Severian finds the claw, because most of the information is already presented to you in Shadow, the answer is surprisingly simple, the last bit of info is given to you early in Claw, and it seems to be one of the most common confusions people still have even after finishing the series. If you read below I don't think it will spoil the reading experience, but if you want to be safe just come back after finishing Claw Chapter III.
In Claw, Chapter III:
"'Still, it's a shame what they did, if they did what's told against them. Set fire to it , you know.'
'Are you talking about the Cathedral of the Pelerines?'
The old woman nodded sagely. 'There, you said it yourself. You're making the same mistake they did. It wasn't the Cathedral of the Pelerines, it was the Cathedral of the Claw. Which is to say, it wasn't theirs to burn.'
To myself I muttered, 'They rekindled the fire.'"
Severian is recalling a detail which is swept under the rug, more literally than figuratively, in Shadow Chapter XVIII when he and Agia are being interrogated by the Pelerines. Remember that the Pelerines' cathedral is a massive silk tent structure with straw laid across the ground. When Agia and Severian crash into the cathedral a candle or something similar must have been knocked over:
"I sniffed. The odor in the air was no longer straw, but straw burning; at almost the same instant I saw the flames, bright in the gloom, but still so small that a few moments before they must have been mere sparks."
... [they are confronted before being able to escape] ...
"'The straw floor of this great tent is on fire, Chatelaine. Do you know it?'
'It will be extinguished. The sisters and our servants are crushing the embers now.'"
That is the last time the fire is mentioned until the passage in Claw.
Finally the moment in Chapter XXXI:
"Hanging over the city like a flying mountain in a dream was an enormous building - a building with towers and buttresses and an arched roof. Crimson light poured from its windows. I tried to speak, to deny the miracle even as I saw it; but before I could frame a syllable, the building had vanished like a bubble in a fountain, leaving only a cascade of sparks."
So because the Pelerines could not find the Claw, they abandoned the Cathedral because its sole purpose was to house the Claw. They did this by rekindling the embers of the fire Severian and Agia almost started, letting the tent go up in flames. This created the same effect as seen in hot air balloons, lifting the whole structure into the air as it burns up entirely. Coincidentally or by divine providence, this happens at the same time that Dorcas and Severian discover the claw and look into the night sky above the city.
I will read the remainder of your comment after chapter 3 and I’ll respond. I’m wondering if it has something to do with the mirrors that were being explained to thecla
Yep, keep those mirrors in mind. More than one version of them.
Very interesting! I just finished chapter 3 and returned to this comment to read it. I began to understand that it was the cathedral but totally missed the detail about it essentially being a tent. What a crazy visual
Yes. This is the way to confirm what "really" happened. You read Citadel and work your way backwards.
Does that mean this wasn't a divine sign? Of course not. In the next chapter, Severian explains that there are three meanings to all things. A flying tent is only the first or ploughman's meaning. That the Cathedral of the Claw appeared immediately after Severian first realized he was carrying The Claw is the second or soothsayers' meaning. The relationship of the Cathedral of the Claw to the bearer of the Claw and the connection to the divine plan and Severian's ultimate destiny is the third or transubstantial meaning.
It was so fun to read your reactions and thoughts.
Of all the insane stuff that happened in the story, I was also very thrown off by the Flaming building in the sky. On my first read I thought it was the House Absolute appearing briefly via teleportation, as I think some character says there are rumors that it moves.
SPOILER. DON'T READ UNTIL FINISH THE WHOLE OF URTH. FOR OTHERS' EYES NOW.
Severian's nursing of Triskelle back to health might remind one of Charlotte Web's Fern rescuing Wilbur from death (it did for me). For Fern, the action might have helped her begin to think of herself not just as daughter but as a mother. In addition to kindness, subconsciously it might have been preparatory for eventual motherhood.
Severian's nursing of Triskelle, however, is not some act of difference from what he normally does, because he as torturer seems to spend as much time carefully patching up and tending to wounds as he does making them (think of the careful staunching of blood from the half-boot inflicted on the maidservant). It is different because he seeks to rescue the animal from death AND hopefully set it free to explore the world outside the citadel -- he imagines the dog living life best in the mountains. The dog will do what he yet cannot: separate from his childhood home. Imagining Triskele living best outside the Citadel, perhaps assists him to conceive that he might do so as well.
"Triskele" is also further practice in practicing a kind of subterfuge against his "parents" that is manageable for one his age. He isn't likely to be caught, but even if he is, the punishment will not be severe. Severian lists a succession of disobediences (listening to patients, saving Vodalus, staying out late, rescuing Triskele, visiting the prostitutes only once) before he commits the big one -- enabling Thecla to escape further torture -- making "Triskele" seem one of the elements he subconsciously used to get used to the greater fear of what full disobedience might mean.
It is interesting to note that Severian doesn't quite seem to imagine that he himself would be the sort of man who would take Triskele along with him as he lived life in the mountains. The nursing he does for the dog, isn't distinguished enough from that a pelerine nun might accomplish: it's feminine attendance. The kind of he-man that might nurse a sick dog without it complicating his masculinity, might in fact be absent in the text, because Becan, the man who takes his family out into the mountains, represents such a he-man as Severian had conjured into his view, and he is tainted by a suicidal instinct, and in fact gets eaten by a dog.
The idea of nursing as an ongoing relationship, not one you start until the patient is healed, is introduced with Baldanders and Dr. Talos. Because Baldander's ongoing growth means constant medical observation, here the "Triskele" will always require the temporary attendance Severian provided Triskele. Triskele makes the known case that making a full recovery is necessary to enjoy life; Baldanders makes the unorthodox one that always being a patient can be accommodated into a fully realized one as well. (If a disabilities scholar ever explores Wolfe, you might cite this.) Severian continues to have relationships where he is the nurse, but only temporarily. He is so with the bewildered Dorcas, further with traumatized Little Severian, further with confused Jonas. I'm not sure what to do with this, so I'll leave it there for now, but it is clear that the shadow Severian leaves sometimes is one the healer makes when s/he leaves your abode to tend to someone else.
Anyway, some thoughts.
Wow really appreciate all the thoughts you've given regarding nursing and Triskelle.. I know these books warrant thousands of hours of discussion but that's easier to see why when you can say so much about such a small element! The possibility that a schollar could find real world value in this really adds meaning too :)
You're welcome!
I hope by the way more people will begin to post lengthier explorations here. I encourage you all to do so!