Tbh as generic as he makes Physint sound, there actually aren’t a lot of third-person military games that are entirely about stealth and infiltration in the sense Metal Gear was, as opposed to AAA games that only contain stealth as a mechanic to get the drop on enemies. It’s just totally different atmospherically if the objective is to stay completely hidden and do as little killing as possible.
If only 95% of Ghost Recon Breakpoint enemies weren't robots it would've been much more fun stealth game. Covering yourself with mud was fun and the stealth on tye hardest difficulty was challenging. That was only 5% of the game sadly.
Yeah as fun as MGS is and I vastly prefer both the stealth and the gameplay as a whole, splinter cell is the king of stealth games to me. You can play MGS as an action game easily, usually it’s easier to just kill a bunch of guys than sneak past them. Splinter Cell feels like you really HAVE to engage in stealth or you won’t succeed
Why is it that Deus Ex: Human Revolution & Mankind Divided never gets mentioned :( they are such great games that are clearly inspired by Metal Gear Solid
The Deus Ex games are RPGs to me. The Eidos ones have fairly elaborate combat and stealth mechanics but they’re still mainly about exploring levels and interacting with NPCs.
They're definitely the closest in vibe. Obviously missing Kojima's humor. Gameplay wise though, they nailed it. Such a unique first person to third person camera, that flowed perfectly for stealth.
It's not so much that he's making it sound generic, but that it's not a challenge for him because he's a founding father of the genre and so creative that he can push it forward with minimal effort.
Not that the game itself won't be creative or worthwhile.
Neither of which I have played. Got any recommendations on Ghost Recon? Any of them come close to MGSV? Or is TLOU2 worth going through for the gameplay?
I only played Wildlands, its pretty fun and scratches a similar itch to MGSV for sure, but it is Ubisoft so its 10x larger than it should be, so if you try to complete everything you'll already be tired 20% into the game.
As for TLOU2, the combat is ridiculously well polished, you're working with a limited toolset compared to MGSV and Ghost Recon but they're so well implemented and interact so well with the world that you can find yourself extremely immersed into the combat segments, in TLOU the enemy AI is the true star, especially in higher difficulties. But its not as high octane as Ghost Recon, there's plenty of story and exploration in between combat too, which I like a lot, but if you want mostly gameplay than its probably Ghost Recon Wildlands or Breakpoint.
Thanks, completely forgot about Ubislop tendencies. Even if the gameplay is good, I’m allergic to their game design lol, I’ll probably play TLOU2 one day, once I get around to beating 1.
TLOU2’s gameplay seems spectacular and really fun from what I’ve watched- especially the animations, holy shit- but it’s nothing like MGSV. MGSV’s gameplay is complete tactical freedom, you can approach from anywhere, you have nigh on endless options available to you to complete your objective, and you can basically fuck around however you like. TLOU2 is a very different sort of stealth (again, from what I’ve seen, have not played it)
I’m honestly worried he can’t make a MGS like game these days without throwing in some self indulgent acting-porn that will get him closer to his idols but not be an actually great story.
I loved Death Stranding and DS2. But I miss when the story was the focus for him instead of having his favorite Hollywood actors say whatever he can afford them to say into a mic. The world of Death Stranding is so interesting, but the character choices and writing aren’t serving that interest very well in his last few games.
I've only played DS1 but I agree, the setting and premise are fantastic. But nothing in the game felt cohesive at all, it felt like fragments of different abstract concepts all mixed together which for me didn't work so well.
MGS was goofy and info/lore dense but it felt grounded within it's own world.
MGS felt like a cool but goofy game that didn't take itself too seriously.
DS to me felt like it took itself far too seriously.
DS1 felt like they needed to rush everything out in order to prove out Kojipro as a studio. The story is clearly just a rough draft. They removed almost all combat to simplify the gameplay systems. And still it's an interesting, fun game, so I'd have to call it a success.
Really? I thought the akward, weird, or maybe even out-of-place moments were charming. I had my personal issues with the story in regards to stereotypes, but I never thought the story was just him trying to stuff famous personalities into a game. Maybe I'm shallow.
I had a friend that would always skip cutscenes while I played games largely for the story. We stopped playing games together and now he doesn't skip cutscenes. Go figure.
I've got to wonder what the point of having actors is in games at all of there no acting involved.
Just recognition I suppose. I thought they would at least capture the facial expressions.
You have to remember it was the 80s, where a game dev team was maybe 10 guys. He was an assistant director and wasn't even formally credited for his first game IIRC. It was considered a job for losers who couldn't cut it in a real career.
Stealth games existed before Kojima got involved in the medium, and the most influential "stealth action" game would be Thief: The Dark Project, which was released within a few months of Metal Gear Solid in 1998. As popular as the Metal Gear series was, it really wasn't that influential. Kojima's style largely remains his own because very few tried to imitate it.
As I've pointed out, Metal Gear was not the first of its kind, nor was the series' breakout game Metal Gear Solid the most influential game in the genre. Kojima claiming to invent things that already exist has been a source of mockery for decades.
Stealth games existed before Kojima got involved in the medium
Perhaps reading comprehension issues lead to your confusion. No specific games were mentioned, but the existence of stealth games that predate Kojima's entry into the medium was established. You could research the subject, if it interests you.
You were all too happy to throw out Thief when you thought the conversation was about MGS, yet now that you're asked to talk about MG on the MSX, you're dodging the question like Snake dodges camera cones.
You really should take the time to absorb the contents of comments you're responding to. My original, unedited comment outright states stealth games existed before Kojima even started making video games, in 1986. Raging tribalism afoot.
Maybe if you're purely a console player - for me, as a lifelong PC gamer, it's always been Thief, Hitman, Deus Ex, Spinter Cell, (heck - even Assassin's Creed) or from the isometric world Commandos, that defined the genre. Besides, Metal Gear games still had their boss battles, which seemed more action than stealth.
You'll have to specify. There are multiple statements here. Let's see here:
Stealth games existed before Kojima got involved in the medium,
Castle Wolfenstein was released in 1981. Hideo Kojima began his career in 1986. There are earlier examples of stealth games still, but Castle Wolfenstein is the game largely credited as the first. That's a minimum gap of 5 years.
It's also important to note that Kojima's Metal Gear 1 and 2 weren't released globally until 2005, when they were included in Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence. The western NES port of MG1 was notoriously butchered, and 2 never made it.
and the most influential "stealth action" game would be Thief: The Dark Project, which was released within a few months of Metal Gear Solid in 1998.
Thief: The Dark Project not only defined the stealth genre with its lighting and sound-based stealth mechanics and detection AI, but also pioneered the immersive sim genre (alongside other 90s Looking Glass Studios titles).
As popular as the Metal Gear series was, it really wasn't that influential. Kojima's style largely remains his own because very few tried to imitate it.
Metal Gear was a moment in time. Commercially successful, but with limited influence on how games were designed. Splinter Cell is the most notable franchise inspired by MGS, but it's heavily rooted in elements pioneered by Thief and its sequels.
To be honest if I made 5 Stealth Action games that were mostly financial and critical acclaim (4+5 being the most divisive) I would probably be like ‘fuck these people I’m making my own weird off putting games now’
EDIT: more than 5 cause there’s the PSP games and Boktai series has some stealth elements.
Some people don’t like the writing in Kojima’s games. I’d agree he definitely needs someone to reign in some of his wilder ideas. But as a game director, he earned his flowers, not many games today can compare in terms of attention to detail, depth, and polish.
I don’t know another open world, action, exploration game, that I can interact with other players seamlessly through the gameplay even without ever engaging with them
Dark Souls lets you leave messages for other players, which is absolutely similar to how Death Stranding lets you leave things in the world for other players. They both have a very similar "solo-together" style of co-op.
But nah, just ignore all that so you can continue to lie and say Death Stranding invented some bullshit new genre when it objectively did not. Keep worshiping Kojima, I guess.
It's the only game I can think of where the main gameplay mechanic is to maintain your balance.
QWOP, that recent one the name I'm forgetting about the guy in his jammies having to walk around manually? Manual Samuel kind of?
As good as the game is, it's frankly not a genre defining new type of game in all honesty, it's a mix of some existing elements that the best I can see really innovated in the pseudo shared world thing.
QWOP was not similar. It was played on flat terrain with nothing to carry, and movement was just derpy. In DS, when unloaded on flat terrain, balancing is not hard. The challenge ramps up based on how much you choose to load, and the roughness of the terrain, and you have lots of choices (smaller loads, longer routes) to control the relative difficulty.
“Entirely unique” yet reminiscent of MGS4 where there’s 100 hours of needless babbling vs 8 hours of actual gameplay. He already basically confirmed this. As for the other game’s stealth, taking a more combat oriented approach in MGS5 was way more fun than stealth so I hope it’s an option in this game. If not, I’ll be fine on passing as I feel Kojima is one of the most overrated developers in gaming history
Tbh as generic as he makes Physint sound, there actually aren’t a lot of third-person military games that are entirely about stealth and infiltration in the sense Metal Gear was, as opposed to AAA games that only contain stealth as a mechanic to get the drop on enemies. It’s just totally different atmospherically if the objective is to stay completely hidden and do as little killing as possible.
Sniper Elite still tries it...but with 0 attention spam, people play fast paced understand nothing on the screen FPS nowadays
Sniper elite has the issue of the kills being so satisfying that having to actually set up the kills feels painful
If only 95% of Ghost Recon Breakpoint enemies weren't robots it would've been much more fun stealth game. Covering yourself with mud was fun and the stealth on tye hardest difficulty was challenging. That was only 5% of the game sadly.
Splinter Cell needs to come back
Yeah as fun as MGS is and I vastly prefer both the stealth and the gameplay as a whole, splinter cell is the king of stealth games to me. You can play MGS as an action game easily, usually it’s easier to just kill a bunch of guys than sneak past them. Splinter Cell feels like you really HAVE to engage in stealth or you won’t succeed
A remake is in the works
Why is it that Deus Ex: Human Revolution & Mankind Divided never gets mentioned :( they are such great games that are clearly inspired by Metal Gear Solid
The Deus Ex games are RPGs to me. The Eidos ones have fairly elaborate combat and stealth mechanics but they’re still mainly about exploring levels and interacting with NPCs.
Because those games were based on the original Deus Ex, which itself was inspired by System Shock rather than MGS.
They're definitely the closest in vibe. Obviously missing Kojima's humor. Gameplay wise though, they nailed it. Such a unique first person to third person camera, that flowed perfectly for stealth.
It's not so much that he's making it sound generic, but that it's not a challenge for him because he's a founding father of the genre and so creative that he can push it forward with minimal effort.
Not that the game itself won't be creative or worthwhile.
I'm still waiting for an OSINT game.
I can't wait to play the first OD-type game.
Try fentanyl, I've heard that one's great
Keep the Narcan handy.
And I am perfectly fine with that. Feed our MGS withdrawals!
It’s been 10 years since MGSV came out, and literally nothing has come close to the experience it brought. I can’t fucking wait for Physint.
Which sucks cause I’m probably gonna be waiting at least 6-8 years
I terms of the basic combat loop TLOU2 probably comes the closest, and in terms of freedom and options its probably one of the Ghost Recon games.
Neither of which I have played. Got any recommendations on Ghost Recon? Any of them come close to MGSV? Or is TLOU2 worth going through for the gameplay?
I only played Wildlands, its pretty fun and scratches a similar itch to MGSV for sure, but it is Ubisoft so its 10x larger than it should be, so if you try to complete everything you'll already be tired 20% into the game.
As for TLOU2, the combat is ridiculously well polished, you're working with a limited toolset compared to MGSV and Ghost Recon but they're so well implemented and interact so well with the world that you can find yourself extremely immersed into the combat segments, in TLOU the enemy AI is the true star, especially in higher difficulties. But its not as high octane as Ghost Recon, there's plenty of story and exploration in between combat too, which I like a lot, but if you want mostly gameplay than its probably Ghost Recon Wildlands or Breakpoint.
Thanks, completely forgot about Ubislop tendencies. Even if the gameplay is good, I’m allergic to their game design lol, I’ll probably play TLOU2 one day, once I get around to beating 1.
The opening hospital sequence alone can rival some other entire games.
I respect the sentiment but disagree. Whatever issues one may have on TLoU2's story, its gameplay is as close to MGS5 as you can get.
TLOU2’s gameplay seems spectacular and really fun from what I’ve watched- especially the animations, holy shit- but it’s nothing like MGSV. MGSV’s gameplay is complete tactical freedom, you can approach from anywhere, you have nigh on endless options available to you to complete your objective, and you can basically fuck around however you like. TLOU2 is a very different sort of stealth (again, from what I’ve seen, have not played it)
TLOU2 can't compete in terms of options and freedom but it's tighter design does allow it to do a lot of things even better https://youtu.be/bakVStHMGpY?si=hve6Qd1uZMFdRw1m
Yeah and that’s cool, but the claim I was making in the first place was that MGSV’s gameplay was unique.
DS2 has a lot of MGSV DNA in it.
Me crying trying to find the stealth gameplay in Dark Souls 2
which one, though? we have quite a few DS2s like we have numerous ACs
Context. Death Stranding 2.
Man I love animal crossing. Assassin's Creed? Armored core? Ace combat?
You know what? Never mind
Context
I’m honestly worried he can’t make a MGS like game these days without throwing in some self indulgent acting-porn that will get him closer to his idols but not be an actually great story.
I loved Death Stranding and DS2. But I miss when the story was the focus for him instead of having his favorite Hollywood actors say whatever he can afford them to say into a mic. The world of Death Stranding is so interesting, but the character choices and writing aren’t serving that interest very well in his last few games.
I've only played DS1 but I agree, the setting and premise are fantastic. But nothing in the game felt cohesive at all, it felt like fragments of different abstract concepts all mixed together which for me didn't work so well.
MGS was goofy and info/lore dense but it felt grounded within it's own world.
MGS felt like a cool but goofy game that didn't take itself too seriously. DS to me felt like it took itself far too seriously.
DS1 felt like they needed to rush everything out in order to prove out Kojipro as a studio. The story is clearly just a rough draft. They removed almost all combat to simplify the gameplay systems. And still it's an interesting, fun game, so I'd have to call it a success.
You're probably right. I do consider it a good game generally, but comparing it to other kojima works and I have more mixed feelings.
Thank you! Death Stranding always felt to me like a kid with a giant box of figures pulling out his favourites and just making shit up.
"Daryl from TWD is a delivery dude and Guilermo Del Toro can be a dead fat ninja!"
Really? I thought the akward, weird, or maybe even out-of-place moments were charming. I had my personal issues with the story in regards to stereotypes, but I never thought the story was just him trying to stuff famous personalities into a game. Maybe I'm shallow.
I enjoyed DS so much more when I started skipping cutscenes.
Complete opposite for me, i put up with the gameplay to see the next big moment
I had a friend that would always skip cutscenes while I played games largely for the story. We stopped playing games together and now he doesn't skip cutscenes. Go figure.
Kojima has wasted enough of my time
Del Toro was a really strange choice for an actor and between that and the script itself I found DS unbearable as far as the cutscenes at least.
I liked it better when he used placeholders for the real deal.
Del Toro actually is only the likeness scan. It’s all someone else’s acting
I've got to wonder what the point of having actors is in games at all of there no acting involved. Just recognition I suppose. I thought they would at least capture the facial expressions.
Does this shock anyone though? Kojima created the whole stealth action genre, of course hes comfortable creating in that space, why wouldnt he be?
I always find it wild that he walked into video games as a director. Makes no sense to me and unheard of nowadays for obvious reasons
You have to remember it was the 80s, where a game dev team was maybe 10 guys. He was an assistant director and wasn't even formally credited for his first game IIRC. It was considered a job for losers who couldn't cut it in a real career.
Stealth games existed before Kojima got involved in the medium, and the most influential "stealth action" game would be Thief: The Dark Project, which was released within a few months of Metal Gear Solid in 1998. As popular as the Metal Gear series was, it really wasn't that influential. Kojima's style largely remains his own because very few tried to imitate it.
Metal Gear on MSX vastly predates MGS and it's the same game, just in 2D with 16K of memory.
As I've pointed out, Metal Gear was not the first of its kind, nor was the series' breakout game Metal Gear Solid the most influential game in the genre. Kojima claiming to invent things that already exist has been a source of mockery for decades.
I don't see any mention of games earlier than MSX Metal Gear in your post.
Manbiki Shounen (1979) is credited as the first to delve into stealth mechanics.
005 (1981) holds the Guinness World Record for the first stealth game.
Castle Wolfenstein (1981) and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein (1984) let you disguise as an enemy and had a dagger for close-range kills.
Took me 10 seconds to discover this info, but I wouldn't expect Kojima fans to know how to use Google.
Perhaps reading comprehension issues lead to your confusion. No specific games were mentioned, but the existence of stealth games that predate Kojima's entry into the medium was established. You could research the subject, if it interests you.
It's not my job to research your unspecific claim. Bless your heart.
Perhaps you should educate yourself before commenting in the future. It would eliminate pointless exchanges like these.
You were all too happy to throw out Thief when you thought the conversation was about MGS, yet now that you're asked to talk about MG on the MSX, you're dodging the question like Snake dodges camera cones.
You really should take the time to absorb the contents of comments you're responding to. My original, unedited comment outright states stealth games existed before Kojima even started making video games, in 1986. Raging tribalism afoot.
Influential... to game developers? I can't imagine it was influential to gamers and their preferences since MGS was more popular.
Correct. What else would it refer to in this context?
I was thinking gamers... since there are probably more gamers in this thread than game developers.
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Could be splinter cell if you're a little younger
Maybe if you're purely a console player - for me, as a lifelong PC gamer, it's always been Thief, Hitman, Deus Ex, Spinter Cell, (heck - even Assassin's Creed) or from the isometric world Commandos, that defined the genre. Besides, Metal Gear games still had their boss battles, which seemed more action than stealth.
What a wildly incorrect statement.
You'll have to specify. There are multiple statements here. Let's see here:
Castle Wolfenstein was released in 1981. Hideo Kojima began his career in 1986. There are earlier examples of stealth games still, but Castle Wolfenstein is the game largely credited as the first. That's a minimum gap of 5 years.
It's also important to note that Kojima's Metal Gear 1 and 2 weren't released globally until 2005, when they were included in Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence. The western NES port of MG1 was notoriously butchered, and 2 never made it.
Thief: The Dark Project not only defined the stealth genre with its lighting and sound-based stealth mechanics and detection AI, but also pioneered the immersive sim genre (alongside other 90s Looking Glass Studios titles).
Metal Gear was a moment in time. Commercially successful, but with limited influence on how games were designed. Splinter Cell is the most notable franchise inspired by MGS, but it's heavily rooted in elements pioneered by Thief and its sequels.
So OD isn’t an acronym but the actual name of the game?
I thought it was overdose
To be honest if I made 5 Stealth Action games that were mostly financial and critical acclaim (4+5 being the most divisive) I would probably be like ‘fuck these people I’m making my own weird off putting games now’
EDIT: more than 5 cause there’s the PSP games and Boktai series has some stealth elements.
As always Kojima will not disappoint
why is this being downvoted
Some people don’t like the writing in Kojima’s games. I’d agree he definitely needs someone to reign in some of his wilder ideas. But as a game director, he earned his flowers, not many games today can compare in terms of attention to detail, depth, and polish.
He said the same thing about Death Stranding being a new genre.
He just talks out his ass to inflate his own ego.
Can you name another game like DS though? He wasn't wrong.
Nothing about Death Stranding is all that unique. It's a 3rd person open world action exploration game. Those are a dime a dozen.
I don’t know another open world, action, exploration game, that I can interact with other players seamlessly through the gameplay even without ever engaging with them
Sounds like you've never played any Dark Souls game then.
Or pretty much any MMO for that matter.
I would argue that dark souls is nowhere near the level of interactivity that death stranding does especially seamlessly without ever asking you to
Dark souls requires you to say yeah I wanna go do this with somebody else or I wanna leave a message
Death stranding quite simply just says this is what you did and it affects somebody else’s world
You're moving the goalposts.
Dark Souls lets you leave messages for other players, which is absolutely similar to how Death Stranding lets you leave things in the world for other players. They both have a very similar "solo-together" style of co-op.
But nah, just ignore all that so you can continue to lie and say Death Stranding invented some bullshit new genre when it objectively did not. Keep worshiping Kojima, I guess.
It invented the genre of "Now I know why corporate executives meddle in games."
There's an unbelievable amount of contempt in this comment. Be less hostile, grow up, and learn to appreciate both games for their differing appeals
Is it not just a very complicated walking simulator?
No. It isn't.
It's a balancing simulator, really. It's the only game I can think of where the main gameplay mechanic is to maintain your balance.
QWOP, that recent one the name I'm forgetting about the guy in his jammies having to walk around manually? Manual Samuel kind of?
As good as the game is, it's frankly not a genre defining new type of game in all honesty, it's a mix of some existing elements that the best I can see really innovated in the pseudo shared world thing.
QWOP was not similar. It was played on flat terrain with nothing to carry, and movement was just derpy. In DS, when unloaded on flat terrain, balancing is not hard. The challenge ramps up based on how much you choose to load, and the roughness of the terrain, and you have lots of choices (smaller loads, longer routes) to control the relative difficulty.
I’m sure he is asleep while his team does all the work and he takes all the credit.
My irrational theory that I want to be true is that Physint is secretly a Metal Gear game
It will be but without any of the Konami owned names.
Imagine if it will gave a boss fight as memorable as Psycho Mantis!
Less talking, more gaming
Sir, this is a Kojima production. Talking IS the game.
Bro is not built for a 4 hour cutscene type game.
4 hour? Must be a QTE.
Nah it’s just the trailer
Now the game is a guitar battle AND talking.
‘When do we play the game?’ ‘This is the game!’ ‘Yippee!’
What does that even mean in this situation?
“Entirely unique” yet reminiscent of MGS4 where there’s 100 hours of needless babbling vs 8 hours of actual gameplay. He already basically confirmed this. As for the other game’s stealth, taking a more combat oriented approach in MGS5 was way more fun than stealth so I hope it’s an option in this game. If not, I’ll be fine on passing as I feel Kojima is one of the most overrated developers in gaming history