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And they're reasonable people all things considered, I would prefer Olenna and house Tyrell in general to rule the kingdoms. Gotta give it to Tywin though, managed to raise his house, raise an army, build Casterly Rock and spread his influence despite his family being... less than ideal to say the least
They're reasonable in the position they have. As soon as they have absolute power they might well become the tyrants the others do. The whole thing about GoT seems to be that power is poisonous
It's possible I suppose. I do think Olenna would be capable of doing some horrible things if it was for her family, but I don't see her going out of her way to be cruel. The Tyrells are not perfect or anything but I still see Westeros being a more alright place under them
Yea but unless there's something I don't know, whoever inherits power currently isn't an inbred psychopath, or a less inbred brother fucker, or an obscenely timid also inbred person so at least this generation isn't completely fucked
While that might be true I don't think they would be anywhere near as bad at the Lannisters. The Tyrells already have and absurd amount of power. At the beginning of the series they are the 3rd most powerful House in Westeros. And in some regards they are the most powerful. I think if they would be as bad as the Lannisters we would already see some symptoms of it.
Yeah tbf the real question is "If Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion were Tyrells and Margaery and Loras were Lannisters, who would've fared better, Olenna or Tywin?" in which case my money's on Tywin.
If Cersei and Jaime were Tyrells, Olenna would have made damn sure there were no Joffreys, Mycellas and Tommens running around. Just like with Loras being homosexual, she probably would have let what they were going slide, but there is not a chance in hell she would have let them have children together. She was much too pragmatic, and kept her head out of the sand on the realities of what went on around her, and would have known what could be swept away as rumour and what couldn't.
1: How the fuck is she gonna "let it slide" but still not "let them" have children together? How do you ensure that them fucking doesn't lead to pregnancy? Are you suggesting she just continuously poison Cersei with the abortion juice they have in Westeros? How does she know before the child is born whether the child is Jaime's or Robert's? Or is she just gonna spend every waking moment trying to make sure that her granddaughter can never have any children at all because there's a risk it might be Jaime's?
2: How is she even gonna exert any amount of control over Cersei after she marries Robert and goes off to King's Landing? It seems to me she's just as powerless as Tywin is to do anything at all about what goes on there.
She would begrudgingly sacrifice having an in with the crown (via marrying Cersei to Robert) and instead ensure she is married somewhere far away from Jaime.
Meanwhile Tywin has two well behaved, bright and cunning children who contribute positively to the family legacy even if one of them is gay and he doesn't at all need to worry about this and can freely marry Margaery to Robert Baratheon (or his heir, now that the mother isn't Cersei) and she will do her duty and produce heirs and importantly not royally mismanage her station every time Tywin looks away for 2 seconds.
So as I said, if the "roles were reversed" e.g. Tywin had Olenna's family and Olenna had Tywin's, Tywin would do way better than Olenna.
Ollena publically killed a king in front of a crowd of witnesses while her whoremonger conspirators wasnt even in the city and is only really spared by Cersei's hatred of Tyrion. Not what I'd call pragmatic.
Exactly! As important--the offspring get along. Garlan, Loras, Willas, and Margaery are unlikely to work against each other or their elders. Even their father generally does what Olenna tells him to do. In such a warlike, contentious society, unified families are a HUGE advantage.
And un-unified familes are a HUGER disadvantage! Partly thanks to Tywin, partly thanks to losing Joanna, and partly thanks to their natures, the three Lannister siblings act for themselves. Though Jaime and Cersei do love each other AND share three children, they both pursue self-serving actions and scheme separately. Cersei takes lovers and pursues politics, while Jaime attends to military affairs and may fall into an arrair with Brienne. Tyrion is pretty much on his own despite a good-ish relationship with Jaime. Luckily, Tyrion is probably the most clever character in the books AND has a knack for survival and advancement..
Olenna actually has her family on the same team as her with the same goals and no qualms on the ways she intends to achieve them, if they had the same power they'd last a lot longer (and be a lot more benevolent) than Cersei could have.
I think it goes one layer deeper. The reason Tywin is vilified by his family, and Olenna is trusted and respected, is Tywin's self-delusion where Olenna has an honest understanding of her aims. They basically have the "same goal" to lift up their family line and ensure their success after they are gone.
For Tywin it is this warped ideal of his family legacy.
For Olenna it is her family's legacy.
That is, Tywin is so preoccupied with this egotistical view of how he will be seen in the future as successful in his present that everything he does "for his family" hurts at least one of his children. Meanwhile Olenna truly understands. She knows that her legacy have faces and first names, and the big moves she plays are for them. She is in a comfortable place of power, so she doesn't give half a shit that Jeoffrey sits the throne, she only cares that Margaery is to marry a vile sadist. When Tywin is literally handed something that would befit Cersei and his family, i.e marrying a highly positioned "sword swallower" he is more concerned about how he would look having a homosexual in his family than the fact that Cersei wouldn't have to work so hard to get her, um, taboo titillations and would maintain a high status.
Lady Olenna was callous but not cruel and even though it was all fake, the Tyrells atleast understood the value of getting the smallfolk on their side.
I think she would have been more effective than Tywin simply because she wouldnt have been hated or feared in the same way as Tywin was.
Not to mention that she has a competent and cooperative family to pull from. Aside from Mace who seems like a bit of a dork the rest of the Tyrells would strengthen her "rule". Margaery is shrewd and well-liked by the small folk. Loras is gallant and dashing, making it easy to build him up as a heroic figure.
And if we are talking about the book, Garlan seems to be a competent military leader and exceptional warrior. And Willas is a intelligent, well-educated and kind person.
The Tyrells are honestly probably the best family to rule Westeros.
Olenna - Coordinating everything and taking care of more underhanded issues.
Margaery - Handling politics and diplomacy and eventually taking over for Olenna.
Willas - Handling administration and logistics.
Garlan - Handling the military.
Loras: - Handling PR and emphasizing the gallantry of the House.
Yes. Lady Olenna would have run the realm more successfully than Tywin.
Not louder, not harsher, but longer and cleaner. She ruled and conducted herself in preparation for the future, Tywin did not. He was too focused on the present, too focused on things that didn't matter. She would have had a quieter, more stable realm for sure.
The Tyrells historically built their power and fortune by being capable administrators - first to the Gardeners, and then to the entire Reach.
In the age of the Gardeners, the earliest Tyrells proved to be such competent bureaucrats that the Gardener Kings made the position of "High Steward of Highgarden" hereditary within House Tyrell. They had no lands, no incomes, no armies, but they still had a lot of power in the kingdom by virtue of being the High Stewards of Highgarden. Throughout the history of the Reach, the Tyrells were instrumental in running the kingdom on behalf of the Gardeners. During the Anarchy of the Reach, a dark age when the Oaken Throne was left vacant and the Reach was beset by enemies, it was the Tyrells who reunited the houses of the Reach and restored the Gardeners on the throne.
Since they became Lord Paramounts of the Reach on behalf of House Targaryen, we can reasonably assume that the Tyrells have continued to be loyal and good administrators of the Reach. We don't really know their tax policy, but we do know that the Reach has historically been the most prosperous and bountiful kingdom, so presumably the Tyrells do a good job at managing the harvests, managing the treasury, feeding the rest of the kingdom, etc.
I'd say it's clear that a Tyrell Administration - Margaery as Queen, Mace as Hand, Olenna as power behind the throne - would lead to the best possible scenario for the Seven Kingdoms.
And that is why House Tyrell were wiped out in the show. Because a Disney happy ending doesn't fit with this series.
But I still think Willas Tyrell, Heir to Highgarden, will become Bran the Broken's Hand in the book.
Like Queen Margaery said in that lore video about House Tyrell:
Now, much of Westeros is ashes. The rest of it is armies. As the Starks are fond of saying, Winter Is Coming. And for leagues outside the capital, there isn't a harvest to be seen.
Have no fear, The Reach is, as always, bountiful. House Tyrell will manage the harvest and keep the Seven Kingdoms from starvation, like the good stewards we once were. Just ask House Gardener.
While your whole passage on the Tyrell Administration is legit, the OP's question was concerning Olenna, who was, first, a Redwyne, thus not really a Tyrell pedigree (although Redwynes easily challenge Tyrells for the title of top southern administrators tbf), and second, seemingly more capable diplomat, politician and schemer than she was an administrator. IIRC there is no indication on her administrative skills in the books and the only indicator in the show was her humiliating Tyrion on the amount of goods they were providing King's Landing with, which thematically and contextually portrays her as a keen and knowledgeable negotiator rather than Highgarden steward, though it might be my perception only.
And all in all the main story Tyrells give strong vibes of being inertially rich, and more interested in playing politics using their wealth (and, boy, the wealth they had) rather than good stewards, but anyway.
What I'd add to Tyrells dynastic strengths would be exactly what Olenna excels at - the ability to balance politically between their "stakeholders". After all, them being of rather moderate origins managed to provide three centuries of stability in the Reach and stay in power despite literally every other major southern family having a better claim, than themselves.
Now, answering OPs question, and adding to your answer, I do also think, that the Tyrell administration in King's Landing would likely surpass Tywins, but not for their stewardship skills, but for the equal political savviness, superior diplomatic skills and more productive attitudes towards allies as well as rivals. The only internal factor that might threaten their ambitions would be their nepotism, though not that it's any better with any other widespread dynasty
But I still think Willas Tyrell, Heir to Highgarden, will become Bran the Broken's Hand in the book.
While Willas currently being an enigma if ASOAIF (and as a whole Tyrells seemingly being the perfect family, the one Tywin wishes he had), I don't think, his destiny is to join metropolitan politics. Willas feels is the only one who feels like a competent steward who plays better at his home grounds. If he survives, I'd see him the steady basis in the Reach for Westeros's welfare in its recovery, rather than a participant in the Game of Thrones that never stops, even with the saga's ending IMO.
Probably not. The problem can be summed up in two characters, Varys and Littlefinger.
Whoever eliminates those characters will have the chance to rule. Stannis, for example, had the beheading of these two characters as the first item on his agenda.
Of course, Stannis is the first and only character to have understood the dangers of these characters.
When we hear Renly say that Stannis wanted to abolish prostitution, it's a lie; Renly is an idiot puppet repeating Littlefinger's lines.
Stannis wanted to close Littlefinger's brothels and investigate him.
Stannis tells Davos that he will clean up the small council, starting with Varys, who should never have been forgiven by Robert after the rebellion, and Littlefinger.
I think yes because while Tywin used fear to rule over his family and the realm, Olenna prefered to use soft power and cunning diplomacy to achieve her family goals. Also the fact of being an elder woman would have helped her because her enemies and rivals would understimate her and she knew how to exploit that to her advantage.
Unlike Tywin she actually cared about her family and tried to prepare them to rule once she wasnt there. Margaery was basically her heir and she learned more from her than Cersei or Jaime learned from Tywin (I dont include Tyrion because no matter how smart he became Tywin would never have accepted him as his heir).
ywin ruled through fear and debt, Olenna ruled through timing and people. Both effective, but hers relied less on constant pressure and more on knowing when to strike.
It’s such a strange question because the reason she would be better than Tywin in that position is the same reason she would never be in that position.
The Tyrells are like the Iron Bank. They don’t win by staking claims and starting wars but instead by backing one side and helping them to victory in exchange for their favor. Since no one would ever give up their throne in exchange for someone else’s help when taking it she would never be top dog like Tywin was.
If she did magic her way to the top though the Tyrells are famously good at sussing out dissent and killing them with kindness whenever possible so she would be one of the most beloved leaders in Westeros imo.
Tywin was excellent at forcing order through fear and power. Ollena ruled with words and brught down kings without sitting on the throne. That tells you everything
Tywin was also an effective ruler in the books since the economy was flourishing under him before Robert’s rebellion when he was hand of the king for the Mad king , so he is competent atleast
She is every bit as ruthless as Tywin. But Westeros is kinda patriarchal, and I’m not sure all the lords of Westeros would fear a woman as much as they fear Tywin, when she doesn’t have a dragon. The right to the iron throne is clearly something you win through combat, and an old lady is perhaps too meek.
We’d be without the viciousness of Cersei, so maybe a 60% chance house Tyrell would be better than house Lannister?
Tywin was a master of order and fear, but his rigidity also helped destroy his house Olenna adapted, played quietly, and survived longer in a deadlier position with fewer resources If she had Tywin’s authority she probably would’ve caused less chaos and still kept control
Olenna would probably have been more adaptable and politically subtle than Tywin, which matters just as much as raw authority in Westeros. Tywin ruled through fear and rigid control, which kept things stable short term but created a lot of resentment that eventually blew back on his family. Olenna, on the other hand, understood people, alliances, and soft power extremely well, so she could get things done without constantly needing to threaten or crush everyone, which often leads to longer lasting stability
I think so. Olenna is pretty good at accounts and numbers as Tyrion found out during the wedding negotiations. She will remember every coin spent. She rules The Tyrells like a boss hence them far more united than The Lannisters. She can be tyrannical if only to protect her family and their interests. Olenna also knows the value of good PR something Margaery learned unlike Tywin who had a much colder approach. I think she would run a much tighter ship than Tywin and the Seven Kingdoms would be much quieter.
The defining trait of the Tyrells is that they understand everyone can prosper together and their reign is safer and more secure without making pointless enemies.
I think people are overestimating olenna. House Tyrell was behind renly breaking with stannis, which basically paved the way for the lannisters to win by splitting support for house Baratheon. They had no ability or intention I’m aware of to work with the northern army. That level of ambition and short sightedness doesn’t lend itself towards a stable and quiet tenure as regent.
As other people have mentioned, the only advantage she seems to have over Tywin is house solidarity/loyalty. She still wanted a fight. I don’t see how she could manage any better with Varys keeping the kingdoms weak for an invasion, little finger playing both sides so the vale is the strongest remaining standing army, dealing with the north, managing renly’s inevitable fuckups (because her path to control was through renly), Cersei’s vindictiveness probably resulting in the same sort of assassinations as the purple wedding, etc.
Just on a macro level, I think she moved too early to have any enduring success. This is a war of attrition and whoever is on the throne gets targeted by everybody else. Even if she had less baggage to deal with than Tywin (feuds with house Martell and stark) I don’t see her being able to placate Robb or get dorne on her side.
I don't know, Olenna is primarily a diplomat and strategist in the effective political sense, but I don't know how she is administratively. Tywin was a great strategist, but I don't think he was such a good politician.
Why? Well, in short, the Red Wedding. Yes, the Red Wedding ends the war in the North, but obviously there will be repercussions in the North in the short or long term, not only against the Boltons and the Freys, but also against the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.
Also, due to the great prejudice he had against his son Tyrion, he wasted his potential. Tyrion is another political force who had so much to offer, and if Tywin and Tyrion had had more of a father-son relationship, the Lannisters would most likely have been unstoppable during this period of history, and Tywin wouldn't have died at Tyrion's hands because, well, they have a true father-son relationship.
I don't know, it's just my point of view, what do you think?
It wasn't a coincidence he had the power and she didn't. There was a reason he had it and it's not because he had it first.
I dont understand why you guys think Olenna is all that.. she is literally the most overrated character in the show.
Not only does she get killed by the Lannisters, but they take her castle, destroy her house, she got her son and daughter taken, and she got bitched by Tywin and Cersei when she tried to play hardball.
Lady Olenna would have been a better ruler than Tywin,she was more in control calmly . She was a good executioner of her plans and had her family together .So I’d agree
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She controls her family, unlike Tywin, so yes
And they're reasonable people all things considered, I would prefer Olenna and house Tyrell in general to rule the kingdoms. Gotta give it to Tywin though, managed to raise his house, raise an army, build Casterly Rock and spread his influence despite his family being... less than ideal to say the least
They're reasonable in the position they have. As soon as they have absolute power they might well become the tyrants the others do. The whole thing about GoT seems to be that power is poisonous
It's possible I suppose. I do think Olenna would be capable of doing some horrible things if it was for her family, but I don't see her going out of her way to be cruel. The Tyrells are not perfect or anything but I still see Westeros being a more alright place under them
Yea but unless there's something I don't know, whoever inherits power currently isn't an inbred psychopath, or a less inbred brother fucker, or an obscenely timid also inbred person so at least this generation isn't completely fucked
While that might be true I don't think they would be anywhere near as bad at the Lannisters. The Tyrells already have and absurd amount of power. At the beginning of the series they are the 3rd most powerful House in Westeros. And in some regards they are the most powerful. I think if they would be as bad as the Lannisters we would already see some symptoms of it.
Yeah tbf the real question is "If Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion were Tyrells and Margaery and Loras were Lannisters, who would've fared better, Olenna or Tywin?" in which case my money's on Tywin.
If Cersei and Jaime were Tyrells, Olenna would have made damn sure there were no Joffreys, Mycellas and Tommens running around. Just like with Loras being homosexual, she probably would have let what they were going slide, but there is not a chance in hell she would have let them have children together. She was much too pragmatic, and kept her head out of the sand on the realities of what went on around her, and would have known what could be swept away as rumour and what couldn't.
Okay two questions.
1: How the fuck is she gonna "let it slide" but still not "let them" have children together? How do you ensure that them fucking doesn't lead to pregnancy? Are you suggesting she just continuously poison Cersei with the abortion juice they have in Westeros? How does she know before the child is born whether the child is Jaime's or Robert's? Or is she just gonna spend every waking moment trying to make sure that her granddaughter can never have any children at all because there's a risk it might be Jaime's?
2: How is she even gonna exert any amount of control over Cersei after she marries Robert and goes off to King's Landing? It seems to me she's just as powerless as Tywin is to do anything at all about what goes on there.
She would begrudgingly sacrifice having an in with the crown (via marrying Cersei to Robert) and instead ensure she is married somewhere far away from Jaime.
Meanwhile Tywin has two well behaved, bright and cunning children who contribute positively to the family legacy even if one of them is gay and he doesn't at all need to worry about this and can freely marry Margaery to Robert Baratheon (or his heir, now that the mother isn't Cersei) and she will do her duty and produce heirs and importantly not royally mismanage her station every time Tywin looks away for 2 seconds.
So as I said, if the "roles were reversed" e.g. Tywin had Olenna's family and Olenna had Tywin's, Tywin would do way better than Olenna.
Ollena publically killed a king in front of a crowd of witnesses while her whoremonger conspirators wasnt even in the city and is only really spared by Cersei's hatred of Tyrion. Not what I'd call pragmatic.
Her combined family efforts lost to Cersei. The Tyrells are idiots of the highest order and Ollena is queen idiot.
Exactly! As important--the offspring get along. Garlan, Loras, Willas, and Margaery are unlikely to work against each other or their elders. Even their father generally does what Olenna tells him to do. In such a warlike, contentious society, unified families are a HUGE advantage.
And un-unified familes are a HUGER disadvantage! Partly thanks to Tywin, partly thanks to losing Joanna, and partly thanks to their natures, the three Lannister siblings act for themselves. Though Jaime and Cersei do love each other AND share three children, they both pursue self-serving actions and scheme separately. Cersei takes lovers and pursues politics, while Jaime attends to military affairs and may fall into an arrair with Brienne. Tyrion is pretty much on his own despite a good-ish relationship with Jaime. Luckily, Tyrion is probably the most clever character in the books AND has a knack for survival and advancement..
Lmao
Olenna actually has her family on the same team as her with the same goals and no qualms on the ways she intends to achieve them, if they had the same power they'd last a lot longer (and be a lot more benevolent) than Cersei could have.
I think it goes one layer deeper. The reason Tywin is vilified by his family, and Olenna is trusted and respected, is Tywin's self-delusion where Olenna has an honest understanding of her aims. They basically have the "same goal" to lift up their family line and ensure their success after they are gone.
For Tywin it is this warped ideal of his family legacy.
For Olenna it is her family's legacy.
That is, Tywin is so preoccupied with this egotistical view of how he will be seen in the future as successful in his present that everything he does "for his family" hurts at least one of his children. Meanwhile Olenna truly understands. She knows that her legacy have faces and first names, and the big moves she plays are for them. She is in a comfortable place of power, so she doesn't give half a shit that Jeoffrey sits the throne, she only cares that Margaery is to marry a vile sadist. When Tywin is literally handed something that would befit Cersei and his family, i.e marrying a highly positioned "sword swallower" he is more concerned about how he would look having a homosexual in his family than the fact that Cersei wouldn't have to work so hard to get her, um, taboo titillations and would maintain a high status.
I think that made the assassination even more amazing. She didn’t need to tell any of them and it was the perfect plan to help her family
Lady Olenna was callous but not cruel and even though it was all fake, the Tyrells atleast understood the value of getting the smallfolk on their side.
I think she would have been more effective than Tywin simply because she wouldnt have been hated or feared in the same way as Tywin was.
Not to mention that she has a competent and cooperative family to pull from. Aside from Mace who seems like a bit of a dork the rest of the Tyrells would strengthen her "rule". Margaery is shrewd and well-liked by the small folk. Loras is gallant and dashing, making it easy to build him up as a heroic figure.
And if we are talking about the book, Garlan seems to be a competent military leader and exceptional warrior. And Willas is a intelligent, well-educated and kind person.
The Tyrells are honestly probably the best family to rule Westeros.
Olenna - Coordinating everything and taking care of more underhanded issues.
Margaery - Handling politics and diplomacy and eventually taking over for Olenna.
Willas - Handling administration and logistics.
Garlan - Handling the military.
Loras: - Handling PR and emphasizing the gallantry of the House.
I really wish we would’ve gotten all the Tyrell children in the show
Any Westeros people responsible for serving cheese would have a difficult time.
Figs for everyone!
Constipation plummets in Kings Landing
Now you can smell the shit from 10 miles away
But tell Cersei it was pee
Yes. Lady Olenna would have run the realm more successfully than Tywin. Not louder, not harsher, but longer and cleaner. She ruled and conducted herself in preparation for the future, Tywin did not. He was too focused on the present, too focused on things that didn't matter. She would have had a quieter, more stable realm for sure.
The Tyrells historically built their power and fortune by being capable administrators - first to the Gardeners, and then to the entire Reach.
In the age of the Gardeners, the earliest Tyrells proved to be such competent bureaucrats that the Gardener Kings made the position of "High Steward of Highgarden" hereditary within House Tyrell. They had no lands, no incomes, no armies, but they still had a lot of power in the kingdom by virtue of being the High Stewards of Highgarden. Throughout the history of the Reach, the Tyrells were instrumental in running the kingdom on behalf of the Gardeners. During the Anarchy of the Reach, a dark age when the Oaken Throne was left vacant and the Reach was beset by enemies, it was the Tyrells who reunited the houses of the Reach and restored the Gardeners on the throne.
Since they became Lord Paramounts of the Reach on behalf of House Targaryen, we can reasonably assume that the Tyrells have continued to be loyal and good administrators of the Reach. We don't really know their tax policy, but we do know that the Reach has historically been the most prosperous and bountiful kingdom, so presumably the Tyrells do a good job at managing the harvests, managing the treasury, feeding the rest of the kingdom, etc.
I'd say it's clear that a Tyrell Administration - Margaery as Queen, Mace as Hand, Olenna as power behind the throne - would lead to the best possible scenario for the Seven Kingdoms.
And that is why House Tyrell were wiped out in the show. Because a Disney happy ending doesn't fit with this series.
But I still think Willas Tyrell, Heir to Highgarden, will become Bran the Broken's Hand in the book.
Like Queen Margaery said in that lore video about House Tyrell:
Mace would've been a terrible Hand. Master of Coin might've suited him better.
He would have to be hand so that olenna could be the real hand without any competition 🤣
I understand your logic but in my mind she's already the real queen in the shadows. The poor woman can't do everything.
What about Tyrion? That would be a delicious appointment because he'd do a good job and the Lannisters would hate it.
While your whole passage on the Tyrell Administration is legit, the OP's question was concerning Olenna, who was, first, a Redwyne, thus not really a Tyrell pedigree (although Redwynes easily challenge Tyrells for the title of top southern administrators tbf), and second, seemingly more capable diplomat, politician and schemer than she was an administrator. IIRC there is no indication on her administrative skills in the books and the only indicator in the show was her humiliating Tyrion on the amount of goods they were providing King's Landing with, which thematically and contextually portrays her as a keen and knowledgeable negotiator rather than Highgarden steward, though it might be my perception only.
And all in all the main story Tyrells give strong vibes of being inertially rich, and more interested in playing politics using their wealth (and, boy, the wealth they had) rather than good stewards, but anyway.
What I'd add to Tyrells dynastic strengths would be exactly what Olenna excels at - the ability to balance politically between their "stakeholders". After all, them being of rather moderate origins managed to provide three centuries of stability in the Reach and stay in power despite literally every other major southern family having a better claim, than themselves.
Now, answering OPs question, and adding to your answer, I do also think, that the Tyrell administration in King's Landing would likely surpass Tywins, but not for their stewardship skills, but for the equal political savviness, superior diplomatic skills and more productive attitudes towards allies as well as rivals. The only internal factor that might threaten their ambitions would be their nepotism, though not that it's any better with any other widespread dynasty
While Willas currently being an enigma if ASOAIF (and as a whole Tyrells seemingly being the perfect family, the one Tywin wishes he had), I don't think, his destiny is to join metropolitan politics. Willas feels is the only one who feels like a competent steward who plays better at his home grounds. If he survives, I'd see him the steady basis in the Reach for Westeros's welfare in its recovery, rather than a participant in the Game of Thrones that never stops, even with the saga's ending IMO.
She got rid of Joffrey, sooooo.....
I think so yes.
Probably not. The problem can be summed up in two characters, Varys and Littlefinger. Whoever eliminates those characters will have the chance to rule. Stannis, for example, had the beheading of these two characters as the first item on his agenda.
Lmao really?
Of course, Stannis is the first and only character to have understood the dangers of these characters. When we hear Renly say that Stannis wanted to abolish prostitution, it's a lie; Renly is an idiot puppet repeating Littlefinger's lines. Stannis wanted to close Littlefinger's brothels and investigate him.
I was more asking for citations/where it's stayed that "Beheading Varys and LF" is on the top of Stannis' agenda. I understand the rationale.
Stannis tells Davos that he will clean up the small council, starting with Varys, who should never have been forgiven by Robert after the rebellion, and Littlefinger.
I dk Varys might actually like the Tyrells given they're super into charity and appeasing the small folk. Show Varys might work with them.
Littlefinger needs to die
I think yes because while Tywin used fear to rule over his family and the realm, Olenna prefered to use soft power and cunning diplomacy to achieve her family goals. Also the fact of being an elder woman would have helped her because her enemies and rivals would understimate her and she knew how to exploit that to her advantage.
Unlike Tywin she actually cared about her family and tried to prepare them to rule once she wasnt there. Margaery was basically her heir and she learned more from her than Cersei or Jaime learned from Tywin (I dont include Tyrion because no matter how smart he became Tywin would never have accepted him as his heir).
ywin ruled through fear and debt, Olenna ruled through timing and people. Both effective, but hers relied less on constant pressure and more on knowing when to strike.
It’s such a strange question because the reason she would be better than Tywin in that position is the same reason she would never be in that position.
The Tyrells are like the Iron Bank. They don’t win by staking claims and starting wars but instead by backing one side and helping them to victory in exchange for their favor. Since no one would ever give up their throne in exchange for someone else’s help when taking it she would never be top dog like Tywin was.
If she did magic her way to the top though the Tyrells are famously good at sussing out dissent and killing them with kindness whenever possible so she would be one of the most beloved leaders in Westeros imo.
Her chamber pot was covered in roses. It didn’t make it smell any better
Olenna is woman so yes.
Tywin was excellent at forcing order through fear and power. Ollena ruled with words and brught down kings without sitting on the throne. That tells you everything
Tywin was also an effective ruler in the books since the economy was flourishing under him before Robert’s rebellion when he was hand of the king for the Mad king , so he is competent atleast
She is every bit as ruthless as Tywin. But Westeros is kinda patriarchal, and I’m not sure all the lords of Westeros would fear a woman as much as they fear Tywin, when she doesn’t have a dragon. The right to the iron throne is clearly something you win through combat, and an old lady is perhaps too meek.
We’d be without the viciousness of Cersei, so maybe a 60% chance house Tyrell would be better than house Lannister?
Tywin could win wars. Olenna could win wars, politics, and the dinner conversation. Different tier of dangerous
Tywin was a master of order and fear, but his rigidity also helped destroy his house Olenna adapted, played quietly, and survived longer in a deadlier position with fewer resources If she had Tywin’s authority she probably would’ve caused less chaos and still kept control
Olenna would probably have been more adaptable and politically subtle than Tywin, which matters just as much as raw authority in Westeros. Tywin ruled through fear and rigid control, which kept things stable short term but created a lot of resentment that eventually blew back on his family. Olenna, on the other hand, understood people, alliances, and soft power extremely well, so she could get things done without constantly needing to threaten or crush everyone, which often leads to longer lasting stability
Yes, as she also had more of a sense of morals and ethics (although she was willing to do what had to be done also)
Yes absolutely
I think so. Olenna is pretty good at accounts and numbers as Tyrion found out during the wedding negotiations. She will remember every coin spent. She rules The Tyrells like a boss hence them far more united than The Lannisters. She can be tyrannical if only to protect her family and their interests. Olenna also knows the value of good PR something Margaery learned unlike Tywin who had a much colder approach. I think she would run a much tighter ship than Tywin and the Seven Kingdoms would be much quieter.
he’d be less brutal and more surgical, which probably saves a lot of mess long term.
The defining trait of the Tyrells is that they understand everyone can prosper together and their reign is safer and more secure without making pointless enemies.
I think people are overestimating olenna. House Tyrell was behind renly breaking with stannis, which basically paved the way for the lannisters to win by splitting support for house Baratheon. They had no ability or intention I’m aware of to work with the northern army. That level of ambition and short sightedness doesn’t lend itself towards a stable and quiet tenure as regent.
As other people have mentioned, the only advantage she seems to have over Tywin is house solidarity/loyalty. She still wanted a fight. I don’t see how she could manage any better with Varys keeping the kingdoms weak for an invasion, little finger playing both sides so the vale is the strongest remaining standing army, dealing with the north, managing renly’s inevitable fuckups (because her path to control was through renly), Cersei’s vindictiveness probably resulting in the same sort of assassinations as the purple wedding, etc.
Just on a macro level, I think she moved too early to have any enduring success. This is a war of attrition and whoever is on the throne gets targeted by everybody else. Even if she had less baggage to deal with than Tywin (feuds with house Martell and stark) I don’t see her being able to placate Robb or get dorne on her side.
Debating if Olenna or Tywin would be more competent is the geopolitical version of arguing about the collapse of the EU
Tywin built power so strong it collapsed the moment he died. Olenna built influence that lasted even after she was gone. That says a lot.
Personally I keep wondering how a marriage between those two would have been
I don't know, Olenna is primarily a diplomat and strategist in the effective political sense, but I don't know how she is administratively. Tywin was a great strategist, but I don't think he was such a good politician.
Why? Well, in short, the Red Wedding. Yes, the Red Wedding ends the war in the North, but obviously there will be repercussions in the North in the short or long term, not only against the Boltons and the Freys, but also against the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.
Also, due to the great prejudice he had against his son Tyrion, he wasted his potential. Tyrion is another political force who had so much to offer, and if Tywin and Tyrion had had more of a father-son relationship, the Lannisters would most likely have been unstoppable during this period of history, and Tywin wouldn't have died at Tyrion's hands because, well, they have a true father-son relationship. I don't know, it's just my point of view, what do you think?
Successfully
She was more aware of the importance of small folk and also not as likely to start wars for petty reasons.
Nope, Tywin would have taken it from her.
It wasn't a coincidence he had the power and she didn't. There was a reason he had it and it's not because he had it first.
I dont understand why you guys think Olenna is all that.. she is literally the most overrated character in the show.
Not only does she get killed by the Lannisters, but they take her castle, destroy her house, she got her son and daughter taken, and she got bitched by Tywin and Cersei when she tried to play hardball.
Lady Olenna would have been a better ruler than Tywin,she was more in control calmly . She was a good executioner of her plans and had her family together .So I’d agree
Yes, strength is behind the scenes. The status quo would’ve held in Westeros and peace achieved.
Her family isn't constantly aimed against each other, so yeah, atleast loras wouldn't try to kill her while she takes a shit
Probably about the same. The mistake people make is thinking that she would be any less ruthless or violent.
Tywin understood pragmatism and legacy building. Olenna just had better one-liners while making equally ruthless decisions.