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Going off the books, Robb was better with a lance and a bow, Jon was better with a blade. Robb was stronger but Jon was faster. Make of that what you will.
Yup. It’s established like three pages into his very first POV chapter:
Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.”
Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”
”Notable achievements.” (JON I, AGOT)
The show turned Jon into an unkillable action hero, no denying it. But people don’t give Jon nearly enough credit for his swordsmanship in the books. I’ve lost track of how many times I hear that he’s “unremarkable” or “not a top fighter.” Certainly not at the start of the series…
But Jon was raised at Winterfell under the tutelage of a skilled master-at-arms and arrived at Castle Black already worlds ahead of the other recruits. Then when Jeor gives him Longclaw, he vows to forge himself into a warrior worthy of wielding Valyrian Steel. He spends the middle of the series training relentlessly whenever his duties as Lord Commander allow it. By book five, he’s regularly dueling three skilled fighters at once:
When Iron Emmett spied him, he raised a hand and combat ceased. “Lord Commander. How may we serve you?”
“With your three best.”
Emmett grinned. “Arron. Emrick. Jace.”
Horse and Hop-Robin fetched padding for the lord commander, along with a ringmail hauberk to go over it, and greaves, gorget, and halfhelm. A black shield rimmed with iron for his left arm, a blunted longsword for his right hand. The sword gleamed silvery grey in the dawn light, almost new. One of the last to come from Donal’s forge. A pity he did not live long enough to put an edge on it.The blade was shorter than Longclaw but made of common steel, which made it heavier. His blows would be a little slower. “It will serve.” Jon turned to face his foes. “Come.”
“Which one do you want first?” asked Arron.
“All three of you. At once.”
“Three on one?” Jace was incredulous. “That wouldn’t be fair.” He was one of Conwy’s latest bunch, a cobbler’s son from Fair Isle. Maybe that explained it.
“True. Come here.”
When he did, Jon’s blade slammed him alongside his head, knocking him off his feet. In the blink of an eye the boy had a boot on his chest and a swordpoint at his throat. “War is never fair,” Jon told him. “It’s two on one now, and you’re dead.”
When he heard gravel crunch, he knew the twins were coming. Those two will make rangers yet. He spun, blocking Arron’s cut with the edge of his shield and meeting Emrick’s with his sword. “Those aren’t spears,” he shouted. “Get in close.”
He went to the attack to show them how it was done. Emrick first. He slashed at his head and shoulders, right and left and right again. The boy got his shield up and tried a clumsy countercut. Jon slammed his own shield into Emrick’s, and brought him down with a blow to the lower leg … none too soon, because Arron was on him, with a crunching cut to the back of his thigh that sent him to one knee. That will leave a bruise. He caught the next cut on his shield, then lurched back to his feet and drove Arron across the yard.
He’s quick, he thought, as the longswords kissed once and twice and thrice, but he needs to get stronger. When he saw relief in Arron’s eyes, he knew Emrick was behind him. He came around and dealt him a cut to the back of the shoulders that sent him crashing into his brother. By that time Jace had found his feet, so Jon put him down again. “I hate it when dead men get up. You’ll feel the same the day you meet a wight.” Stepping back, he lowered his sword. (JON VI, ADWD)
And that’s without even using his Valyrian Steel. This is a feat that matches what we hear of other top swordsmen in the series. Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, is widely regarded as the best tourney knight in Westeros, with the possible exception of pre-maiming Jaime Lannister. Loras says his older brother Garlan is an ever greater duelist, but that he doesn’t fight for sport as much. And Garlan, we’re told, also trains against three or sometimes four men at once. By the end of book five, Jon is by all appearances up there with the best
Book five Jon and Theon are my two favorite POVs in the entire series. Both start out sort of one-note, but GRRM puts them through so many trials and character-defining moments that by the end they become incredibly layered and scarred
One is a Jesus and the other a Judas, but they’re both weighed down by the sins of the past. Two deeply conflicted souls wrestling with impossible choices and trying to find hope in seemingly hopeless situations
I like you description and how you compare them to Jesus and Judas. I don’t think I’m reading the books anytime soon, but Jon is my favorite tv-series character and I always felt compassion towards Theon, and I read both of their book wiki, so can ask you to share more of your observations about them? Really interested to hear what else you see. Why would you say you love their POV so much? What were they both chasing and what decisions did they make? What did they both turn into and what were they feeling about it? What hope do they find?
What layers do they have?
In the show, Theon says that Jon always knew what’s the right thing to do, and Jon definitely gives such vibes. Is that so? But then I also wonder, if he was ever caught by Ramsay, he would also break, right? There’s no way you actually can make it out from such torture
Oh man, there’s a lot to say. The Starks are in many ways the “protagonist” faction of the story, and that’s even more true in the books than the show. Book one, A Game of Thrones, has only eight POV characters; six of those are members of the Stark family: Ned, Cat, Robb, Sansa, Arya, and Jon. The only two non-Stark perspectives we get at the beginning are Dany and Tyrion. Theon isn’t a POV until book two, but he’s a major character from the start. He and Jon are the proverbial “black sheep” of House Stark, though for different reasons. They both feel like they don’t belong, and they struggle with envy and insecurity because of that. But their decisions paint them in “stark” contrast to one another and put them on opposite trajectories across the series
Jon is raised as a bastard with no birthright. Some, like Cat, treat him with suspicion and contempt because of his status. But his siblings love him like family and he loves them back. Jon admits to himself that he wants desperately be Lord of Winterfell like Robb will one day. You could say he covets Robb’s birthright, but he feels ashamed of this and never lets it interfere with his loyalty to House Stark. Instead, he strives to accept his lot in life. Jon’s stepmother views him and his future children as a threat, so he joins the Night’s Watch, permanently vowing to never hold any titles or have any children. In a way, this is the most radical acceptance of his social station that Jon could make. He’s pledging to never seek out what he was denied by his birth. Instead of grasping for power, he is actively forswearing it.
Theon is the polar opposite. He is a noble, the heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands ever since his elder brothers died in the Greyjoy Rebellion. His father’s folly got them killed and Theon sent to Winterfell. As a result, Theon grows up with the Starks instead of his “true” family. They treat him well, but he can’t let go of the idea that he deserves to be back in the Iron Islands. Where Jon puts aside his frustrations and tries to focus on being grateful, Theon nurses his feelings of bitterness and resentment. He clings to his identity as an Ironborn, acting haughty and prideful. As a result, he doesn’t appreciate the trust and affection Robb has for him. Where Jon was sent away out of distrust to ensure he would never get power, Theon is sent off on an important mission to claim power. Yet it’s Theon who isn’t satisfied; he betrays his adoptive family, sacking Winterfell and stealing Robb’s birthright just as Catelyn always feared Jon would do.
Theon’s betrayal marks him as a turncloak, something that will haunt him for the rest of the series. He was sent out as a diplomat to negotiate an alliance between two historical enemies so they could focus on a common threat, but instead he launched an invasion that caused more suffering for both sides and helped no one. During the same book, Jon gets sent out on a ranging mission to spy on the wildlings. But even though he’s captured and forced to live among the Free Folk, Jon never turns his cloak. And even though he was never intended to be a diplomat, Jon sees the humanity in both sides and realizes they can work together. He’s the one who will end up negotiating an alliance between two factions who have been fighting for thousands of years, so that they can focus on the true enemy.
Theon imagines he will be showered with glory for seizing Winterfell, but instead he finds himself reviled by the household he grew up with and abandoned by his allies. Only here, surrounded by Ser Rodrik’s army and completely out of options, does Theon even consider doing what Jon did voluntarily and taking the black. When Ramsay arrives with reinforcements, Theon believes himself saved, but Ramsay betrays him too and he loses everything. By contrast, Jon knows he will be scorned as a traitor when he returns to Castle Black, but he does his duty all the same. With the garrison down to a handful and all the leaders gone, Jon seems every bit as doomed as Theon was. Yet he does not despair or start looking for an escape hatch. He organizes the defense of the Wall and holds off the wildlings until help arrives. Like Theon, his only reward is capture and imprisonment. But unlike Theon, Jon is charged with one final task.
Jon tries to convince Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne to negotiate with the Free Folk, but instead they gleefully send him on a suicide mission. He is to enter the wildling camp as an envoy and assassinate Mance Rayder in hopes of fracturing the enemy coalition. Jon could refuse this task—most of us would. Accepting means not just death, but death without dignity, alone and unloved. Certainly all the characters who mock House Stark for its “foolish honor” and naïveté would expect him to balk at such a mission. But Jon does not shy away. Though he believed in peace, he is willing to dishonor himself and die in ignominy if it means protecting the North. Only then, when Jon has faced death yet again and stayed true despite being spit on after all his sacrifices, does true salvation come in the form of Stannis and his army.
This marks the turning point in their arcs. Theon has gone from adoptive family, to prodigal son, to genuine turncloak, to tragic villain, to cornered animal; Jon went from adoptive family, to outcast son, to feigned turncloak, to tragic hero, to sacrificial lamb. But from here, Jon will begin a meteoric rise as authority is thrust upon him unasked and responsibilities find him unlooked for one after another. Meanwhile, Theon languishes in a purgatory of his own making. He tried to seize lordship and command of Winterfell, a snowy white castle, but his partner Ramsay betrayed him and took it in turn. Jon was made Lord and Commander of Castle Black even though he declined to seek the office because Samwell went behind his back to advocate for him. With Theon out of the picture and Ramsay replacing him as the wrongful Lord of Winterfell, the Bastard of Bolton emerges as Jon’s primary foil and nemesis for the second act. Theon was always his own worst enemy, but Ramsay is a monster Jon will have to slay himself. If Theon is a tragic mirror to Jon, then Ramsay is a dark and twisted one.
By the time he reemerges as a POV, Theon is truly something special. His chapters roaming Winterfell are a tour de force in slow-building tension and psychological distress. A broken man stumbling through the snow-laden ruins of another life. It’s like getting a sequel to the gospels that returns to Judas after a few years of roasting in hell and offers him an escape hatch. Theon is broken down and flayed of his very identity, then confronted with the fruits of all his sins. Gradually, and with the help of some fellow penitents, he comes to realize that he never truly hated the Starks—rather, he wanted to be one of them. He wanted it desperately, but he’d convinced himself that he never could be. Ultimately he gets an opportunity to do something heroic and self-sacrificing by helping to bust out the former steward’s daughter, whom the Boltons are passing off as Arya Stark. In the books he’s only just set out on his redemption arc, but those four chapters in Winterfell contain some of the best writing I’ve ever had the pleasure to experience.
But you asked what I liked about Jon as a character? He’s a natural born leader even though he hates it, and he combines all the best traits of his two mentor figures, Ned and Stannis. He thinks before he speaks, and discusses before he acts. He seeks out counsel and heeds it. He never gives up, and he never flinches from his duty—no matter how unpleasant. He’s perceptive and empathetic, resourceful and bold. Where most just see problems, Jon sees potential. He finds compromises and seeks common ground. He’s passionate and driven, but strives manfully to fight down his ego and his emotions—and usually succeeds. He always tries to avoid violence, but when it comes to a fight he’s ready every time.
Ramsay is the antithesis of Jon, a warped caricature of all the stereotypes he’s been saddled with as a bastard. In Catelyn’s most outlandish nightmares about Jon, Ramsay was what she saw. He actually did murder his half-brother Domeric, the trueborn son of Roose Bolton, who was by all accounts a decent guy. He’s a dirty, violent, uncouth animal who preys on the weak and never fights fair, a sadistic sicko remorselessly indulging all his basest instincts. Ramsay usurped the Dreadfort, but that wasn’t enough, so he stole Winterfell too. And now two northern bastards of these ancient rival houses, a Stark Snow and a Bolton Snow, suddenly find themselves the last scions of their rival houses—one by design, the other in despair. Ramsay got himself legitimized by King Tommen and styles himself the new Lord of Winterfell. But unbeknownst to both, Jon was legitimized by King Robb and made heir to Winterfell in his will. Their clash is inevitable, and it will determine the fate of the North, the Wall, and perhaps even the world.
Unlike in the show, we haven’t yet seen how this showdown unfolds in the books. But especially in the most recent one, Ramsay and Jon are contrasted with each other over and over. At one point, two back-to-back chapters present Jon and Ramsay with two groups of half-dead surrendered enemies from outside the North: the wildlings and the Ironmen, respectively. Their responses could not be more different. After using Theon to negotiate their surrender, Ramsay has the Ironmen flayed to death and their corpses mounted along the road. Simply because he can. In an ironic twist of fate, Theon once again serves as a treacherous mockery of a diplomat, only now it’s against his will. On Ramsay’s orders, we see sixty-three lives wasted completely. Just thrown away.
But Jon doesn’t waste anything. He can’t afford to—he’s got to do the impossible and man the Wall against winter, war, and a looming apocalypse with few men and fewer supplies. So, just like he’s been doing all series, Jon plays the diplomat that Theon was meant to be. He mediates and resolves conflicts. He draws on his experience living among the Free Folk to work out a system for them to serve on the Wall. It’s fragile, messy, and a far cry from the usual Night’s Watch recruitment, but it works and it helps keep both sides alive. And in the end, Jon gains sixty-three spears, while Ramsay gains none. Yet for all his effort, Jon can’t get a single Thenn to join. They despise the crows too much for killing their previous leader. Most people would probably give up on them. Do you think Jon will give up? Of course not.
Jon is already becoming a symbolic King. He exiled himself to the Wall to safeguard Robb’s birthright and swore to “wear no crown,” but Robb ended up naming him his heir as King in the North. And even though news of this hasn’t yet spread, the people of the North are starting to turn to Jon in their time of need. When her uncles try to usurp the Karhold, Alys Karstark flees to Castle Black and Jon Snow for justice. And she gets it—when the uncles come knocking, he has them thrown in the ice cells. Alys begs him to secure her claim, so he creatively arranges a marriage to the new Magnar of Thenn, creating a new northern house and finally earning their trust. He saves Stannis twice from disaster by suggesting different plans, and counsels him on how to win the northern mountain clans to his cause. Clan leaders flock to Castle Black to lay eyes on “the Ned’s boy.” When an Iron Bank official passes through to meet with Stannis, Jon seizes the opportunity to negotiate loans with which to buy food to last the winter. He somehow eventually works out terms for the wildlings to pass through the Wall. By the end of the book, there are like half a dozen factions milling around Castle Black who should all hate each other, but Jon is just barely holding them all together for a common cause.
Jon manages all this because he’s actually a very intelligent and charismatic dude in the books. People often remark that he’s the spitting image of Ned when he was young, and Jon absolutely follows his father’s example as a leader and an authority figure. He’s restrained and compassionate, but always ready to take personal responsibility. From their POVs, we see that both of them are constantly questioning their decisions and agonizing over whether they’ve done right by those who depend on them. Jon often feels guilty when his inner moral compass leads him to break with tradition, bend the law, or mislead others: when he swaps the babies and evacuates Sam and Aemon, when he sends Mance south and Val north, even way back when he first spares Ygritte after Qhorin leaves him to decide. He berates himself for not always having the resolve to carry out his most painful duties the way he remembers his father doing.
The irony is that Jon fears his acts of mercy are a weakness—that his father would have done his duty no matter what, by killing Ygritte for example. But Jon is only alive in the first place because Eddard committed treason by hiding him. Jon is living proof of Ned’s mercy, and his willingness to throw out the rulebook when his internal sense of morality tells him to. In fact, Ned’s chapters are filled with moments where he reflects on the existence of “honorable lies” and the codes a good man may break in order to keep others safe. Ned’s parenting took root so deeply in Jon that he can’t help but do what Ned would do. There were things Jon didn’t know about Ned, so sometimes he has the wrong idea about what Ned would have done. But even when he thinks he’s making the “wrong choice” and his father would disapprove, Jon can’t help but do what he believes is right—which actually winds up being what Ned would have done.
So I hope that clarifies what I find so compelling about Jon as a character, and how his and Theon’s arcs serve as heroic and tragic mirrors of each other. Theon being a Judas figure is pretty self-explanatory; I could go further into the messiah motifs surrounding Jon and the other heads of the dragon, the prophecy of The Prince That Was Promised, and how he seems poised to be resurrected in even more miraculous fashion than how it happened in the show. But Jon doesn’t literally need to be raised from the dead to serve as a symbolic Jesus figure. He’s been sacrificing himself to pay for the sins of others all along. And like Jesus, I think if confronted with a truly remorseful Theon, he would find it in himself to forgive. Not forget, but forgive. And I do hope we get to read that scene someday.
Honestly it was helpful for me too, just to go through the exercise of collecting all my thoughts about Theon and Ramsay in contrast with Jon. A good few of those parallels are new realizations for me too that only came together in the process of typing it out
So don’t mistake me for some kind of self-sacrificing Jesus figure like Jon xD
The sword and shield thing is interesting too.. valyrian steel is sharp and light, the main advantage of which would be a longer / faster sword for a given weight.
One way of leveraging that is the greatswords, keep a two handed weapon like a traditional longsword, but make it even longer.
But making something longsword sized but easily usable one handed is also interesting, since, amongst other things, it opens up using, effectively, a longsword and shield at the same time.
For that matter, where did he learn to use one at all? Or to fight in plate armor? Some of the details of Mance’s birth are unclear, but what the different versions agree on is that he was left at Castle Black as a babe and raised in the Night’s Watch. Most accounts have him as the child of a sworn brother and a wildling woman:
“Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings,” the queen said, “descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Redbeard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers.” (JON XIII, ADWD)
Castle Black doesn’t train its rangers to use anything bigger than a longsword; we know because Jeor tells Jon he’ll have to get special instruction when he gives him the hand-and-a-half sword Longclaw. Jeor says the new master-at-arms, Endrew Tarth, will be able to show him how to wield it with a two-handed grip. Jon has no experience with this because Alliser Thorne never trained him or any other recruits with weapons of war. And Night’s Watch brothers certainly don’t go traipsing around in full plate armor. Rangers usually wear some combination of boiled leather, mail, and wool padding
Meanwhile, the wildlings are even more poorly equipped. With the exception of the Thenns, the Free Folk do not mine nor smelt; the only metal armor that they wear are bits and pieces looted from dead rangers. Most of their warriors wield armament wrought of stone and wood, such as axes and flails, fire-hardened spears and lances, and bows of wood and horn. The Thenns are more well-armed and armored than other Free Folk, with bronze helms, axes, and short stabbing spears. But even the Thenns aren’t packing castle-forged steel greatswords
So where the hell did Mance Rayder develop such familiarity with this gear that he would prefer it in a duel? These are trappings of organized warfare; Jon calls the weapon a “monster sword.” Yet Mance wields it with “blinding speed” while clad in full plate, and never seems to tire. He must have some kind of martial background that he’s hiding for one reason or another. Why else would GRRM make a point of giving Mance such a bizarrely inexplicable feat? While he is hiding his identity in another way, no less…
And on that note, there’s another duel Jon had back in book two that’s eerily similar:
Qhorin’s sword was coming at him and somehow Longclaw leapt upwards to block. The force of impact almost knocked the bastard blade from Jon’s hand, and sent him staggering backwards.You must not balk, whatever is asked of you. He shifted to a two-hand grip, quick enough to deliver a stroke of his own, but the big ranger brushed it aside with contemptuous ease. Back and forth they went, black cloaks swirling, the youth’s quickness against the savage strength of Qhorin’s left-hand cuts. The Halfhand’s longsword seemed to be everywhere at once, raining down from one side and then the other, driving him where he would, keeping him off balance. Already he could feel his arms growing numb. (JON VIII, ACOK)
Look at the phrasing:
Mance: “The force of the blow staggered him for a moment and sent a solid jolt up his arm.”
Qhorin: “The force of impact almost knocked the bastard blade from Jon’s hand, and sent him staggering backwards.”
Mance: “The wildling always seemed to be moving away or sliding sideways, so Jon’s longsword glanced off a shoulder or an arm. He found himself giving more ground, trying to avoid the other’s crashing cuts and failing half the time.”
Qhorin: “The Halfhand’s longsword seemed to be everywhere at once, raining down from one side and then the other, driving him where he would, keeping him off balance.”
Mance: “The greatsword crashed down, hard enough to ding his pouldron and numb the arm beneath.”
Qhorin: “Already he could feel his arms growing numb.”
Jon’s fight with Mance is clearly written to echo the one with Qhorin; they’re the only times we ever see him so totally outclassed. The two duels mirror each other, and that may be because Mance and Qhorin have the same secret advantage. They’re former Kingsguard in hiding: Qhorin is the White Bull Ser Gerold Hightower, and Mance is Ser Arthur Dayne, once the Sword of the Morning
Now, I wouldn’t say I actively believe this, but I don’t disbelieve it either. I made a post a month or two ago on the book sub, reviewing the surprising amount of textual support for Qhorin being Gerold: The Grey Bull. There’s strong basis for it, but it’s not overwhelming. The case for Mance is similar. What’s clear, however, is that Mance Rayder is hiding some sort of extensive martial background, and that compromises our ability to gauge his prowess in combat. Because of this, I don’t think his fight with Jon can meaningfully serve as an anti-feat. It places some kind of upper bound on Jon’s skill, but that means nothing because we don’t know where the bound is
I’m not convinced that those three recruits are equal to the three professional men at arms that Garlan would be sparring with but yes, I think it’s safe to say that Jon in the books has all the pieces, except for physical maturity, to be an excellent fighter.
Almost definitely not but Jon’s also around 16 years old here. GRRM was setting Jon up to be a top swords man, right now he’s above average but still young imo. He also spars with Iron emmet and rattle shirt at different times so we know Jon takes his training seriously. I think he was also beating on new recruits to help teach, learn what they’re made of and also get in his workout.
Yeah, in GRRM's mind eventually Jon is going to be tier 1. He wrote a few fan fictions of various trials by combat. Jaime had to face the character from a wheel of time in one in a trial of the 7. Jaime is pissed at the team Tyrion made for him, and mentions "I could have the mountain and the hound, Brienne, Barristan and Jon Snow."
I'm slightly paraphrasing, because I don't remember the order or who the other ideal candidate was, but Jon was mentioned with these other warriors.
Like it IS a fan fiction, but the characterization is the same and he is writing in the asoiaf world. If Jaime is putting Jon Snow in the same ideal combatant list with the likes of those, clearly Jon is meant to become one of the best in GRRM's mind. He's not just gonna lay out a dream team and then throw Jon in there just because.
When he saw relief in Arron’s eyes, he knew Emrick was behind him.
I love that five books and twenty years later, Martin still remembers that he characterized Jon as being very observant in his very first chapter. There are so many great little details in these books that aren't super called attention to, but when you notice them it's so damn cool.
Absolutely. If Jon could read Ned’s POV chapters, he’d have worked out his parentage by the second or third one. He doesn’t miss a trick
And that continues right up to the moment of the mutiny. He puts it all together so fast—what’s got Wun Wun worked up, where he was hurt, how to deescalate, what he needs to do it. In spite of all the chaos, he even spots the assassin’s blade in time to dodge and disarm him
“Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we’re scaring him.” Couldn’t they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun’s strength. A horn, I need a horn.
He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. “No blades!” he screamed. “Wick, put that knife …”
… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. ”Why?”
“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. (JON XIII, ADWD)
But then the others pile on. Damn Bowen and the rest of his traitors to the blackest of hells
But people don’t give Jon nearly enough credit for his swordsmanship in the books. I’ve lost track of how many times I hear that he’s “unremarkable” or “not a top fighter.”
He's also very young.
Putting him up against say, the Hound? Well the other dude is years older.
And that’s without even using his Valyrian Steel. This is a feat that matches what we hear of other top swordsmen in the series. Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, is widely regarded as the best tourney knight in Westeros, with the possible exception of pre-maiming Jaime Lannister. Loras says his older brother Garlan is an ever greater duelist, but that he doesn’t fight for sport as much. And Garlan, we’re told, also trains against three or sometimes four men at once. By the end of book five, Jon is by all appearances up there with the best
Ehh bear in mind whoever the Watch has, they're probably not the same tier of opponents Garlan is fighting.
It’s truly staggering how GRRM manages to weave details from across the series into blink-and-you-miss-it patterns and connections
He’s always doing it, even in the most seemingly mundane passages. Subtle word choices and symbols that hint at future plot points, or flesh out the worldbuilding, or set up neat character beats, or pay off previous ideas, or tie up loose ends in the story. Even on third and fourth rereads you will notice so many new things that challenge your thinking and lead to even more questions
This video is a great example of just how much hidden meaning George manages to stuff into background details while you’re distracted by the main events
This is nothing like the other fights you mention. The entire point of that fight is he’s fighting three recruits who have had no training of any kind their entire life, most likely never held steal of any kind. They’ve been learning for a couple of weeks. Jon has been trained by a master at arms literally his entire life and sparring against other such children. This is explicitly stated after the fight.
I think you've overhyped his abilities. In your second quote, these don't come off as skilled fighters, just skilled relative to the other batch of fresh recruit trainees -- look at the way Jace is described -- and yet if they were using sharps, Jon would have had the entire meat of his thigh cut through and likely never have had good use of that leg again. The quote simply is describing him as a trainer of green boys. The twins are orphans, Emmet is a "boy" with "clumsy countercuts", and Arron, who landed the cut on Jon's leg, doesn't even make it into the rangers, becoming a steward.
Could also be a case of Wheel of Time leaking into GoT a bit. A running gag in the book is that the three main boy PoVs think the other two are better with girls.
Robb was the tactician (short-term) and Jon is the strategist (long-term). Robb could win any battle but he needed Jon there to help him see the big picture
Plus remember, Jon grew as a fighter over the course of the show so it’s possible Rob Is only better then a younger Jon and that’s what he’s referring to/relenting here
Also important to note: in the books Jon isn't an expert swordsman like Jaimie or Selmy. He's just better than the recruits who didn't grow up practicing under a master of arms. Most of the people he fights are effectively holding a sword for the first time or are armed with deer antlers and sharp sticks.
Show reworks it a bit so that Rob seems to be the better strategist and Jon is the better fighter, but both are basically undefeated until they’re betrayed. Basically that Stark men family curse
It really depends on whether we look at the books or the show. The show seemingly takes place across 8 years, I think they both start at 16, Robb dies at 19, Jon is like 23 - 24 at the end. Jon has years of experience by the end, and was consistently training. Robb was in battles getting experience for sure, but likely not as hands on as Jon in this time. The books, start to finish so far, has been about 2 years of time, starting at 14, Robb dies at 16 and Jon is also 16 and currently dead. Jon likely has more practical fighting experience, but mostly against wildlings and not knights.
Hm. I wonder. In the books, Jon’s experience was with Alisser, training. He also defended Castle Black but that was minimal arms combat and almost entirely wall defense. Meanwhile Rob fought in three battles. So I don’t know how we can compare them.
Not in the show, but book Robb wanted to legitimize Jon as a Stark and as his successor in the events of his death but he didn't have the chance to do so before he got to the Red Wedding
Excerpt from A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V, Chapter 45
“A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”
“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . .”
“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”
She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”
“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”
“Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”
“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”
He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.” “Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”
“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”
“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . .”
“. . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had
hoped you would support my choice.”
“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it.”
“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.
He killed 3 wildlings and captured Osha when Bran was ambushed. Very solid sequence by him considering it was a 4 v 1.
Sadly it's the only time we see him fight in the show.
Ahh that’s right. I wish we could’ve seen some fight scenes from his little battle instead of just cutting straight to a guy getting his leg sawn off lmao
Yeah, one of my biggest disappointments with Robb in the show. They chose to focus on his genius strategic level intellect but every time the opportunity for a fight arose he either found a way out of it (e.g. when Jaime challenged him) or his men would fight for him.
At the time Jaime challenged him 1 V 1, Robb was winning battles as a result of his strategic intellect. Jaime would have killed him and he’d have been stupid to accept.
True, I’m not saying that isn’t the case either. Robb knew he’d get absolutely fucked in a fight against Jaime because he wasn’t nearly as good of a swordsman as Jaime was. However, I’m just using that as an example because that’s one of the only moments in the show where a fight is directly presented to Robb and it was completely avoided.
I’d have liked to see him fight in that battle at least, but Robb isn’t a POV character in the books, so they also present it through Catelyn in the show.
Yeah, honestly. Robb is still one of my favorite moments in the show but that scene where he had Jaime chained and intimidated him with Greywind was dope.
Yeah, one of my biggest disappointments with Robb in the show. They chose to focus on his genius strategic level intellect but every time the opportunity for a fight arose he either found a way out of it (e.g. when Jaime challenged him)
Robb would've been an idiot to have accepted Jaime's challenge.
Yeah, one of my biggest disappointments with Robb in the show. They chose to focus on his genius strategic level intellect but every time the opportunity for a fight arose he either found a way out of it (e.g. when Jaime challenged him) or his men would fight for him.
He doesn't need to be a genius to know fighting Jaime 1v1 to decide the outcome of the war would be a dumb move.
He would be a complete moron if the show had had him accept that challenge. Yet you say it's disappointing that the show didn't do that.
Jon only became really good because he kept on training like a beast. Hard to measure their skills, but I'd put 16 y/o Robb a clear level down from the top elite swordfighters that age like Loras. 16 y/o Jon is another level down from that, but by the end of the books so far he climbs a level. So if Robb had lived they'd be about equal.
I'd say it's kinda tough to rank. He did a lot of sword training, but how much of his active combat (fighting to the death) was against trained knights, as opposed to wildlings. I mean I know botb was sworded, but I usually think of these questions from where he is in the books, which I suppose is not v relevant.
Jon is a far better soldier than I any of the famous swordsmen. Give either 20 men and let's say the kingswood as the arena and Jon has them scouted and ambushed in no time. That was what he really gained experience at. Small unit tactics and skirmishing.
And I bet, if he comes at them at night after ambushing their camp, he would defeat guys like Loras most of the time.
Of course, in a duel or trial by combat, he would be worse. But that's not what actual war is like. Because war is no fair 1v1 duels.
This is a good point. Th elite swordsmen were assets like superpowers and treated as such. You'd never send a Jaime or a Loras into a botb type situation. Jon was a bastard his whole Iife. In many ways he was worthless to society, and he was treated like a bastard and repeatedly thrown into shitty situations. He trained hard as fuck cause he knew that was going to be his life. Through training and experience he became like a delta force operator, lethal as fuck but not someone you'll ever see headlining a tourney
Yes. You don't need a strongman to have an elite soldier. Elite soldiers are usually fit, but also not ridiculously strong or ultra lean. They look like fit, normal people.
All of the famous swordsmen in GoT are treated like mythological heroes instead of being good at a rather specific form of athletics. It's one of the less realistic parts of GoT, despite GoT having this reputation of being realistic.
Irl, being good at holding a formation might be a more important skill in battle than being a good fighter. Scouting might be a lot more important than thundering over an open field with a lance.
So yeah, in their perfect environment, most of the famous knights of Westeros would beat Jon, If only because they wear armour and Jon somehow always wears furs. But why would we always assume perfect environment for them? Why not have them fight on an icey slope, after two weeks of no food except the stuff they foraged? Why not have both fight with bad, improvised weapons? That's as important as being good at fighting with a sword. Hell, it might be more important.
Probably well below the true elites like a jaime, mance, or selmy, but far ahead of average. I’d say something like top 5%-10% but a far ways away from the top 1%
He was also fighting against criminals/street urchins with little to no training with sword instructors/ master at arms from major castles.. obviously he was gonna be the best fighter on the wall
Your older brother will always be your older brother. For most of Jon's life Rob was bigger with several years more training and experience. Once they were both grown Jon would have closed the ability gap, but your older brother will always be your older brother.
We also have to keep in mind that Jon is a bastard, while Robb was the heir of the house. Their treatment by others, especially by Catelyn, would have been fundamentally different. For Jon in particular, there’s also a strong element of self-fulfilling prophecy at work
People keep misunderstanding. Jon is amazing because he was noble around a bunch of commoners. He had a lifetime of personal training; and training from the best. I never got that Jon was amazing compared to other noble warriors. I do think he is good; he is just not amazing or great.
This is a world with no standing army other then The Wall. most armies was not people who trained with weapons and armor. This is the difference between a knight and a commoner.
I don't know, in the TV-Series they hint that Jon is really good. Ramsay says he heard stories about how Jon was the greatest swordsman to have ever lived.
I don't know where he would have heard that from though, unless Jon was very popular.
In the books however Jon is still young and is not the elite fighter he is in the show. He’s capable and certainly better than plenty of his black brothers but Qhorin went about 10% effort and still nearly overwhelmed Jon. He’s more of a schemer and planner in the books than he is in the show, while having good ability with wielding Longclaw.
That’s just the show gassing him up cuz he’s the main character. Putting him on the level of people like Barristan Selmy, Jamie Lannister, or Arthur Dayne is just ridiculous.
The books intentionally try to break away from fantasy tropes, and one of the biggest tropes is “the main character is the best at everything he does.” The show doesn’t really care though and will lean into tropes.
I kinda think of this as a throw away comment from a younger brother about his older brother who he perceives to be better than him. It’s a tale as old as time. Jon probably has it a little worse because he’s not a stark and is constantly reminded it with his own name.
He maybe meant just regular fighting. I imagine as boys they had little fights sometimes growing up and Jon lost more than he won. They're close in age, there would've been a ton of squabbling, and we know it's a verrrrry boys are tough environment so it was probably encouraged by Ser Rodrik. Add in Theon joining as ward and being a mouthy pain in the ass, there must've been brawls between them and being the eldest and strongest Robb would totally win. He would seem the best and most capable fighter Jon knew, and the one he compared himself to until joining The Watch
In the books, Jon himself says that he’s better with a sword, but rob is the better Lance. And George has said that Jon is above average as a swordsman. So we can surmise that Robb must’ve only been slightly worse than Jon with a sword, and it’s probably because of Jon’s smaller and leaner build, which makes him faster.
Rob is very good... for a Watch Recruit. He isn't necessarily very good when compared to equally trained, more experienced swordsmen of noble families.
You have to remember the context if yiu don't remember the actual wprds said to him. He was kicking ass in a class where nobody else had ever held a sword. That isn't very difficult.
Then he did get more experienced, and got better (we assume). I don't recall anywhere it says he was a prodigy with the blade. Competent, and even relatively good, but remember hes only 14 -16 year old kid. He's probably fast, energetic, and a strong kid but he's still a kid with limited experience.
Well, Robb at least considers himself not as good as Jaime in a duel. He declined a duel with Jaime because he assumed that Jaime (pre-hand cut off) would win.
Robb was a better rider, jouster, and was the more suitable brother being a Lordling to a Great House. Later it is shown Robb is seemingly a better military comatose.
Jon was a better sword fighter and better at maths. But the text also supports Jon being a better politician, having better economic skills, and just a better leader in general. Jon also is clearly also very attractive since it seems like a lot of woman either throw themselves at him or flirt with him.
Robb was an incredible general and was able to rally many people to his side but he couldn’t plan ahead far enough or pull off the political maneuvering to win and survive. Jon was a better leader since he could plan ahead further and not just win the loyalty of others but maintain, but he lacked self confidence, and failed to keep his most trusted and closest allies and supporters around him leading to his stabbing.
Jon was unlikely to have been capable of anything approaching objectivity here. He saw himself as 'second rate' by dint of his bastard status alone. This likely would have bled into his comparisons between himself and his 'trueborn' peer.
Yeahhhh I'm fairly certain this line is only in the show. In the books Jon only fought like... 5 people? 1 of which is an undead wight. The other a wildling he took by surprise. He lost his fight against mance iirc and the half hand let him kill him. Jon is definitely better than the average non trained person sure but a great fighter the way we think of Jaime, Barristan, Oberyn, Arthur Dayne etc? Nah lol
Mance is an adult and Jon is 16. Mance is also a legendary fighter in his own right.
Two things can be true, Jon is clearly not yet on the level of the elite adult fighters (Selmy, Jaime, Hound, Mountain, Drogo, Qorin, Mance, Oberyn, etc)
BUT he also clearly has huge potential and GRMM is obviously building him up as a powerful up and comer. He is always training and numerous characters comment on his natural ability and potential.
Yeah the smiling knight was a man and a legendary fighter, and jamie was holding his own at 16 , impressing everyone including the sword of the morning, who took a reasonable time to defeat him and then knighted jamie. That's how an elite fighter does at 16. John got saddled up and rode.
In the books Jon isn’t really an exceptional fighter. Like he’s certainly good but that’s not his main thing. He’s primarily a strategist and a politician. Book Jon and show Jon are completely different characters.
Rob likewise isn’t exceptional, he’s good but not on the level of like Loras or Jamie.
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Going off the books, Robb was better with a lance and a bow, Jon was better with a blade. Robb was stronger but Jon was faster. Make of that what you will.
Yup. It’s established like three pages into his very first POV chapter:
The show turned Jon into an unkillable action hero, no denying it. But people don’t give Jon nearly enough credit for his swordsmanship in the books. I’ve lost track of how many times I hear that he’s “unremarkable” or “not a top fighter.” Certainly not at the start of the series…
But Jon was raised at Winterfell under the tutelage of a skilled master-at-arms and arrived at Castle Black already worlds ahead of the other recruits. Then when Jeor gives him Longclaw, he vows to forge himself into a warrior worthy of wielding Valyrian Steel. He spends the middle of the series training relentlessly whenever his duties as Lord Commander allow it. By book five, he’s regularly dueling three skilled fighters at once:
And that’s without even using his Valyrian Steel. This is a feat that matches what we hear of other top swordsmen in the series. Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, is widely regarded as the best tourney knight in Westeros, with the possible exception of pre-maiming Jaime Lannister. Loras says his older brother Garlan is an ever greater duelist, but that he doesn’t fight for sport as much. And Garlan, we’re told, also trains against three or sometimes four men at once. By the end of book five, Jon is by all appearances up there with the best
You know, I has forgotten he was quite so driven at melee combat. I think I med to reread the books.
Book five Jon and Theon are my two favorite POVs in the entire series. Both start out sort of one-note, but GRRM puts them through so many trials and character-defining moments that by the end they become incredibly layered and scarred
One is a Jesus and the other a Judas, but they’re both weighed down by the sins of the past. Two deeply conflicted souls wrestling with impossible choices and trying to find hope in seemingly hopeless situations
I like you description and how you compare them to Jesus and Judas. I don’t think I’m reading the books anytime soon, but Jon is my favorite tv-series character and I always felt compassion towards Theon, and I read both of their book wiki, so can ask you to share more of your observations about them? Really interested to hear what else you see. Why would you say you love their POV so much? What were they both chasing and what decisions did they make? What did they both turn into and what were they feeling about it? What hope do they find?
What layers do they have?
In the show, Theon says that Jon always knew what’s the right thing to do, and Jon definitely gives such vibes. Is that so? But then I also wonder, if he was ever caught by Ramsay, he would also break, right? There’s no way you actually can make it out from such torture
Oh man, there’s a lot to say. The Starks are in many ways the “protagonist” faction of the story, and that’s even more true in the books than the show. Book one, A Game of Thrones, has only eight POV characters; six of those are members of the Stark family: Ned, Cat, Robb, Sansa, Arya, and Jon. The only two non-Stark perspectives we get at the beginning are Dany and Tyrion. Theon isn’t a POV until book two, but he’s a major character from the start. He and Jon are the proverbial “black sheep” of House Stark, though for different reasons. They both feel like they don’t belong, and they struggle with envy and insecurity because of that. But their decisions paint them in “stark” contrast to one another and put them on opposite trajectories across the series
Jon is raised as a bastard with no birthright. Some, like Cat, treat him with suspicion and contempt because of his status. But his siblings love him like family and he loves them back. Jon admits to himself that he wants desperately be Lord of Winterfell like Robb will one day. You could say he covets Robb’s birthright, but he feels ashamed of this and never lets it interfere with his loyalty to House Stark. Instead, he strives to accept his lot in life. Jon’s stepmother views him and his future children as a threat, so he joins the Night’s Watch, permanently vowing to never hold any titles or have any children. In a way, this is the most radical acceptance of his social station that Jon could make. He’s pledging to never seek out what he was denied by his birth. Instead of grasping for power, he is actively forswearing it.
Theon is the polar opposite. He is a noble, the heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands ever since his elder brothers died in the Greyjoy Rebellion. His father’s folly got them killed and Theon sent to Winterfell. As a result, Theon grows up with the Starks instead of his “true” family. They treat him well, but he can’t let go of the idea that he deserves to be back in the Iron Islands. Where Jon puts aside his frustrations and tries to focus on being grateful, Theon nurses his feelings of bitterness and resentment. He clings to his identity as an Ironborn, acting haughty and prideful. As a result, he doesn’t appreciate the trust and affection Robb has for him. Where Jon was sent away out of distrust to ensure he would never get power, Theon is sent off on an important mission to claim power. Yet it’s Theon who isn’t satisfied; he betrays his adoptive family, sacking Winterfell and stealing Robb’s birthright just as Catelyn always feared Jon would do.
Theon’s betrayal marks him as a turncloak, something that will haunt him for the rest of the series. He was sent out as a diplomat to negotiate an alliance between two historical enemies so they could focus on a common threat, but instead he launched an invasion that caused more suffering for both sides and helped no one. During the same book, Jon gets sent out on a ranging mission to spy on the wildlings. But even though he’s captured and forced to live among the Free Folk, Jon never turns his cloak. And even though he was never intended to be a diplomat, Jon sees the humanity in both sides and realizes they can work together. He’s the one who will end up negotiating an alliance between two factions who have been fighting for thousands of years, so that they can focus on the true enemy.
Theon imagines he will be showered with glory for seizing Winterfell, but instead he finds himself reviled by the household he grew up with and abandoned by his allies. Only here, surrounded by Ser Rodrik’s army and completely out of options, does Theon even consider doing what Jon did voluntarily and taking the black. When Ramsay arrives with reinforcements, Theon believes himself saved, but Ramsay betrays him too and he loses everything. By contrast, Jon knows he will be scorned as a traitor when he returns to Castle Black, but he does his duty all the same. With the garrison down to a handful and all the leaders gone, Jon seems every bit as doomed as Theon was. Yet he does not despair or start looking for an escape hatch. He organizes the defense of the Wall and holds off the wildlings until help arrives. Like Theon, his only reward is capture and imprisonment. But unlike Theon, Jon is charged with one final task.
Jon tries to convince Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne to negotiate with the Free Folk, but instead they gleefully send him on a suicide mission. He is to enter the wildling camp as an envoy and assassinate Mance Rayder in hopes of fracturing the enemy coalition. Jon could refuse this task—most of us would. Accepting means not just death, but death without dignity, alone and unloved. Certainly all the characters who mock House Stark for its “foolish honor” and naïveté would expect him to balk at such a mission. But Jon does not shy away. Though he believed in peace, he is willing to dishonor himself and die in ignominy if it means protecting the North. Only then, when Jon has faced death yet again and stayed true despite being spit on after all his sacrifices, does true salvation come in the form of Stannis and his army.
This marks the turning point in their arcs. Theon has gone from adoptive family, to prodigal son, to genuine turncloak, to tragic villain, to cornered animal; Jon went from adoptive family, to outcast son, to feigned turncloak, to tragic hero, to sacrificial lamb. But from here, Jon will begin a meteoric rise as authority is thrust upon him unasked and responsibilities find him unlooked for one after another. Meanwhile, Theon languishes in a purgatory of his own making. He tried to seize lordship and command of Winterfell, a snowy white castle, but his partner Ramsay betrayed him and took it in turn. Jon was made Lord and Commander of Castle Black even though he declined to seek the office because Samwell went behind his back to advocate for him. With Theon out of the picture and Ramsay replacing him as the wrongful Lord of Winterfell, the Bastard of Bolton emerges as Jon’s primary foil and nemesis for the second act. Theon was always his own worst enemy, but Ramsay is a monster Jon will have to slay himself. If Theon is a tragic mirror to Jon, then Ramsay is a dark and twisted one.
By the time he reemerges as a POV, Theon is truly something special. His chapters roaming Winterfell are a tour de force in slow-building tension and psychological distress. A broken man stumbling through the snow-laden ruins of another life. It’s like getting a sequel to the gospels that returns to Judas after a few years of roasting in hell and offers him an escape hatch. Theon is broken down and flayed of his very identity, then confronted with the fruits of all his sins. Gradually, and with the help of some fellow penitents, he comes to realize that he never truly hated the Starks—rather, he wanted to be one of them. He wanted it desperately, but he’d convinced himself that he never could be. Ultimately he gets an opportunity to do something heroic and self-sacrificing by helping to bust out the former steward’s daughter, whom the Boltons are passing off as Arya Stark. In the books he’s only just set out on his redemption arc, but those four chapters in Winterfell contain some of the best writing I’ve ever had the pleasure to experience.
(Part 2 of 2)
But you asked what I liked about Jon as a character? He’s a natural born leader even though he hates it, and he combines all the best traits of his two mentor figures, Ned and Stannis. He thinks before he speaks, and discusses before he acts. He seeks out counsel and heeds it. He never gives up, and he never flinches from his duty—no matter how unpleasant. He’s perceptive and empathetic, resourceful and bold. Where most just see problems, Jon sees potential. He finds compromises and seeks common ground. He’s passionate and driven, but strives manfully to fight down his ego and his emotions—and usually succeeds. He always tries to avoid violence, but when it comes to a fight he’s ready every time.
Ramsay is the antithesis of Jon, a warped caricature of all the stereotypes he’s been saddled with as a bastard. In Catelyn’s most outlandish nightmares about Jon, Ramsay was what she saw. He actually did murder his half-brother Domeric, the trueborn son of Roose Bolton, who was by all accounts a decent guy. He’s a dirty, violent, uncouth animal who preys on the weak and never fights fair, a sadistic sicko remorselessly indulging all his basest instincts. Ramsay usurped the Dreadfort, but that wasn’t enough, so he stole Winterfell too. And now two northern bastards of these ancient rival houses, a Stark Snow and a Bolton Snow, suddenly find themselves the last scions of their rival houses—one by design, the other in despair. Ramsay got himself legitimized by King Tommen and styles himself the new Lord of Winterfell. But unbeknownst to both, Jon was legitimized by King Robb and made heir to Winterfell in his will. Their clash is inevitable, and it will determine the fate of the North, the Wall, and perhaps even the world.
Unlike in the show, we haven’t yet seen how this showdown unfolds in the books. But especially in the most recent one, Ramsay and Jon are contrasted with each other over and over. At one point, two back-to-back chapters present Jon and Ramsay with two groups of half-dead surrendered enemies from outside the North: the wildlings and the Ironmen, respectively. Their responses could not be more different. After using Theon to negotiate their surrender, Ramsay has the Ironmen flayed to death and their corpses mounted along the road. Simply because he can. In an ironic twist of fate, Theon once again serves as a treacherous mockery of a diplomat, only now it’s against his will. On Ramsay’s orders, we see sixty-three lives wasted completely. Just thrown away.
But Jon doesn’t waste anything. He can’t afford to—he’s got to do the impossible and man the Wall against winter, war, and a looming apocalypse with few men and fewer supplies. So, just like he’s been doing all series, Jon plays the diplomat that Theon was meant to be. He mediates and resolves conflicts. He draws on his experience living among the Free Folk to work out a system for them to serve on the Wall. It’s fragile, messy, and a far cry from the usual Night’s Watch recruitment, but it works and it helps keep both sides alive. And in the end, Jon gains sixty-three spears, while Ramsay gains none. Yet for all his effort, Jon can’t get a single Thenn to join. They despise the crows too much for killing their previous leader. Most people would probably give up on them. Do you think Jon will give up? Of course not.
Jon is already becoming a symbolic King. He exiled himself to the Wall to safeguard Robb’s birthright and swore to “wear no crown,” but Robb ended up naming him his heir as King in the North. And even though news of this hasn’t yet spread, the people of the North are starting to turn to Jon in their time of need. When her uncles try to usurp the Karhold, Alys Karstark flees to Castle Black and Jon Snow for justice. And she gets it—when the uncles come knocking, he has them thrown in the ice cells. Alys begs him to secure her claim, so he creatively arranges a marriage to the new Magnar of Thenn, creating a new northern house and finally earning their trust. He saves Stannis twice from disaster by suggesting different plans, and counsels him on how to win the northern mountain clans to his cause. Clan leaders flock to Castle Black to lay eyes on “the Ned’s boy.” When an Iron Bank official passes through to meet with Stannis, Jon seizes the opportunity to negotiate loans with which to buy food to last the winter. He somehow eventually works out terms for the wildlings to pass through the Wall. By the end of the book, there are like half a dozen factions milling around Castle Black who should all hate each other, but Jon is just barely holding them all together for a common cause.
Jon manages all this because he’s actually a very intelligent and charismatic dude in the books. People often remark that he’s the spitting image of Ned when he was young, and Jon absolutely follows his father’s example as a leader and an authority figure. He’s restrained and compassionate, but always ready to take personal responsibility. From their POVs, we see that both of them are constantly questioning their decisions and agonizing over whether they’ve done right by those who depend on them. Jon often feels guilty when his inner moral compass leads him to break with tradition, bend the law, or mislead others: when he swaps the babies and evacuates Sam and Aemon, when he sends Mance south and Val north, even way back when he first spares Ygritte after Qhorin leaves him to decide. He berates himself for not always having the resolve to carry out his most painful duties the way he remembers his father doing.
The irony is that Jon fears his acts of mercy are a weakness—that his father would have done his duty no matter what, by killing Ygritte for example. But Jon is only alive in the first place because Eddard committed treason by hiding him. Jon is living proof of Ned’s mercy, and his willingness to throw out the rulebook when his internal sense of morality tells him to. In fact, Ned’s chapters are filled with moments where he reflects on the existence of “honorable lies” and the codes a good man may break in order to keep others safe. Ned’s parenting took root so deeply in Jon that he can’t help but do what Ned would do. There were things Jon didn’t know about Ned, so sometimes he has the wrong idea about what Ned would have done. But even when he thinks he’s making the “wrong choice” and his father would disapprove, Jon can’t help but do what he believes is right—which actually winds up being what Ned would have done.
So I hope that clarifies what I find so compelling about Jon as a character, and how his and Theon’s arcs serve as heroic and tragic mirrors of each other. Theon being a Judas figure is pretty self-explanatory; I could go further into the messiah motifs surrounding Jon and the other heads of the dragon, the prophecy of The Prince That Was Promised, and how he seems poised to be resurrected in even more miraculous fashion than how it happened in the show. But Jon doesn’t literally need to be raised from the dead to serve as a symbolic Jesus figure. He’s been sacrificing himself to pay for the sins of others all along. And like Jesus, I think if confronted with a truly remorseful Theon, he would find it in himself to forgive. Not forget, but forgive. And I do hope we get to read that scene someday.
OMG WOW thank you so much
This is incredible and so so interesting. I never actually thought of Ramsay and Theon as mirrors to Jon even tho it was always there
You made me actually seriously consider reading the whole thing
It seems to be quite different from the show
LOVE this analysis, thank you for taking the time. 11/10
Hey that’s great to hear
Honestly it was helpful for me too, just to go through the exercise of collecting all my thoughts about Theon and Ramsay in contrast with Jon. A good few of those parallels are new realizations for me too that only came together in the process of typing it out
So don’t mistake me for some kind of self-sacrificing Jesus figure like Jon xD
Thank you so much for this. Thoughtful and thought-provoking.
That's a lot of questions.
Haha yeah, I know! But then again, why not! We’re gathered here to talk about those things, right?
Eight questions in one comment is a tall order from someone they haven't spoken with yet.
Hopefully they're nice and have a lot of free time.
xD Fortunately, I’m a fast typer
The sword and shield thing is interesting too.. valyrian steel is sharp and light, the main advantage of which would be a longer / faster sword for a given weight.
One way of leveraging that is the greatswords, keep a two handed weapon like a traditional longsword, but make it even longer.
But making something longsword sized but easily usable one handed is also interesting, since, amongst other things, it opens up using, effectively, a longsword and shield at the same time.
And shields, underestimated though they are in media, are awesome.
I remember him getting spanked by in disguise Mance but I think I put Mance as top 5 in the series among the living.
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For that matter, where did he learn to use one at all? Or to fight in plate armor? Some of the details of Mance’s birth are unclear, but what the different versions agree on is that he was left at Castle Black as a babe and raised in the Night’s Watch. Most accounts have him as the child of a sworn brother and a wildling woman:
Castle Black doesn’t train its rangers to use anything bigger than a longsword; we know because Jeor tells Jon he’ll have to get special instruction when he gives him the hand-and-a-half sword Longclaw. Jeor says the new master-at-arms, Endrew Tarth, will be able to show him how to wield it with a two-handed grip. Jon has no experience with this because Alliser Thorne never trained him or any other recruits with weapons of war. And Night’s Watch brothers certainly don’t go traipsing around in full plate armor. Rangers usually wear some combination of boiled leather, mail, and wool padding
Meanwhile, the wildlings are even more poorly equipped. With the exception of the Thenns, the Free Folk do not mine nor smelt; the only metal armor that they wear are bits and pieces looted from dead rangers. Most of their warriors wield armament wrought of stone and wood, such as axes and flails, fire-hardened spears and lances, and bows of wood and horn. The Thenns are more well-armed and armored than other Free Folk, with bronze helms, axes, and short stabbing spears. But even the Thenns aren’t packing castle-forged steel greatswords
So where the hell did Mance Rayder develop such familiarity with this gear that he would prefer it in a duel? These are trappings of organized warfare; Jon calls the weapon a “monster sword.” Yet Mance wields it with “blinding speed” while clad in full plate, and never seems to tire. He must have some kind of martial background that he’s hiding for one reason or another. Why else would GRRM make a point of giving Mance such a bizarrely inexplicable feat? While he is hiding his identity in another way, no less…
And on that note, there’s another duel Jon had back in book two that’s eerily similar:
Look at the phrasing:
Jon’s fight with Mance is clearly written to echo the one with Qhorin; they’re the only times we ever see him so totally outclassed. The two duels mirror each other, and that may be because Mance and Qhorin have the same secret advantage. They’re former Kingsguard in hiding: Qhorin is the White Bull Ser Gerold Hightower, and Mance is Ser Arthur Dayne, once the Sword of the Morning
Now, I wouldn’t say I actively believe this, but I don’t disbelieve it either. I made a post a month or two ago on the book sub, reviewing the surprising amount of textual support for Qhorin being Gerold: The Grey Bull. There’s strong basis for it, but it’s not overwhelming. The case for Mance is similar. What’s clear, however, is that Mance Rayder is hiding some sort of extensive martial background, and that compromises our ability to gauge his prowess in combat. Because of this, I don’t think his fight with Jon can meaningfully serve as an anti-feat. It places some kind of upper bound on Jon’s skill, but that means nothing because we don’t know where the bound is
I’m not convinced that those three recruits are equal to the three professional men at arms that Garlan would be sparring with but yes, I think it’s safe to say that Jon in the books has all the pieces, except for physical maturity, to be an excellent fighter.
Almost definitely not but Jon’s also around 16 years old here. GRRM was setting Jon up to be a top swords man, right now he’s above average but still young imo. He also spars with Iron emmet and rattle shirt at different times so we know Jon takes his training seriously. I think he was also beating on new recruits to help teach, learn what they’re made of and also get in his workout.
Yeah, in GRRM's mind eventually Jon is going to be tier 1. He wrote a few fan fictions of various trials by combat. Jaime had to face the character from a wheel of time in one in a trial of the 7. Jaime is pissed at the team Tyrion made for him, and mentions "I could have the mountain and the hound, Brienne, Barristan and Jon Snow."
I'm slightly paraphrasing, because I don't remember the order or who the other ideal candidate was, but Jon was mentioned with these other warriors.
Like it IS a fan fiction, but the characterization is the same and he is writing in the asoiaf world. If Jaime is putting Jon Snow in the same ideal combatant list with the likes of those, clearly Jon is meant to become one of the best in GRRM's mind. He's not just gonna lay out a dream team and then throw Jon in there just because.
They’re not, the entire point of the scene is to humble Jon for his training and beating up untrained commoners
I love that five books and twenty years later, Martin still remembers that he characterized Jon as being very observant in his very first chapter. There are so many great little details in these books that aren't super called attention to, but when you notice them it's so damn cool.
Absolutely. If Jon could read Ned’s POV chapters, he’d have worked out his parentage by the second or third one. He doesn’t miss a trick
And that continues right up to the moment of the mutiny. He puts it all together so fast—what’s got Wun Wun worked up, where he was hurt, how to deescalate, what he needs to do it. In spite of all the chaos, he even spots the assassin’s blade in time to dodge and disarm him
But then the others pile on. Damn Bowen and the rest of his traitors to the blackest of hells
He's also very young.
Putting him up against say, the Hound? Well the other dude is years older.
Ehh bear in mind whoever the Watch has, they're probably not the same tier of opponents Garlan is fighting.
Shit this makes me want to pick up the books again.
It’s truly staggering how GRRM manages to weave details from across the series into blink-and-you-miss-it patterns and connections
He’s always doing it, even in the most seemingly mundane passages. Subtle word choices and symbols that hint at future plot points, or flesh out the worldbuilding, or set up neat character beats, or pay off previous ideas, or tie up loose ends in the story. Even on third and fourth rereads you will notice so many new things that challenge your thinking and lead to even more questions
This video is a great example of just how much hidden meaning George manages to stuff into background details while you’re distracted by the main events
Giving you props for the long paragraph some of the stuff I didn't know thank you!
This is nothing like the other fights you mention. The entire point of that fight is he’s fighting three recruits who have had no training of any kind their entire life, most likely never held steal of any kind. They’ve been learning for a couple of weeks. Jon has been trained by a master at arms literally his entire life and sparring against other such children. This is explicitly stated after the fight.
I think you've overhyped his abilities. In your second quote, these don't come off as skilled fighters, just skilled relative to the other batch of fresh recruit trainees -- look at the way Jace is described -- and yet if they were using sharps, Jon would have had the entire meat of his thigh cut through and likely never have had good use of that leg again. The quote simply is describing him as a trainer of green boys. The twins are orphans, Emmet is a "boy" with "clumsy countercuts", and Arron, who landed the cut on Jon's leg, doesn't even make it into the rangers, becoming a steward.
Could also be a case of Wheel of Time leaking into GoT a bit. A running gag in the book is that the three main boy PoVs think the other two are better with girls.
Robb was the tactician (short-term) and Jon is the strategist (long-term). Robb could win any battle but he needed Jon there to help him see the big picture
Plus remember, Jon grew as a fighter over the course of the show so it’s possible Rob Is only better then a younger Jon and that’s what he’s referring to/relenting here
Understandable that Robb was stronger. He's older and trained longer.
And girls would pay a lot more attention to a future lord than a bastard, regardless of who his father was or who’s better looking.
Also important to note: in the books Jon isn't an expert swordsman like Jaimie or Selmy. He's just better than the recruits who didn't grow up practicing under a master of arms. Most of the people he fights are effectively holding a sword for the first time or are armed with deer antlers and sharp sticks.
Show reworks it a bit so that Rob seems to be the better strategist and Jon is the better fighter, but both are basically undefeated until they’re betrayed. Basically that Stark men family curse
Rob wasn’t very good at weddings though.
I thought his wedding was killer!
By Dothraki standards, it was quite lively.
No it was to die for!
It was his uncle’s wedding.
Or at hanging people who backstab him.
Jon had two girlfriends and both are also dead so idk
Jon too wasn't very good at that
like you and humor
Like you and insults
He’s not Mexican.
They lacked real experience, they were just training at Winterfell. Jon probably outgrew Robb.
It really depends on whether we look at the books or the show. The show seemingly takes place across 8 years, I think they both start at 16, Robb dies at 19, Jon is like 23 - 24 at the end. Jon has years of experience by the end, and was consistently training. Robb was in battles getting experience for sure, but likely not as hands on as Jon in this time. The books, start to finish so far, has been about 2 years of time, starting at 14, Robb dies at 16 and Jon is also 16 and currently dead. Jon likely has more practical fighting experience, but mostly against wildlings and not knights.
So they’re currently equally skilled you could say, being both dead
They are both currently equally as useless in a duel rn yes.
Seems to me Jon outgrew everyone
Some are showers. Some are growers I guess
And Jon puts both to shame because while he knew nothing, he knew how to give the ladies the Lord's Kiss.
I saw his pecker. What kind of god would have a pecker that small?
Hm. I wonder. In the books, Jon’s experience was with Alisser, training. He also defended Castle Black but that was minimal arms combat and almost entirely wall defense. Meanwhile Rob fought in three battles. So I don’t know how we can compare them.
I mean... Not hard when one of them stops growing.
It's actually kinda insane the battle experience that Jon developed over the seasons
Rob was his big brother. This line is way more about how he idealizes him than anyone's fighting skills.
I also love that Jon says he wanted to hate him for it but could never bring himself to do so. He loved his brother and Robb loved him in turn.
Do we ever hear Robb say a single thing about Jon in the show?
Not in the show, but book Robb wanted to legitimize Jon as a Stark and as his successor in the events of his death but he didn't have the chance to do so before he got to the Red Wedding
Excerpt from A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V, Chapter 45
“A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”
“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . .”
“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”
She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”
“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”
“Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”
“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”
He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.” “Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”
“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”
“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . .”
“. . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”
“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it.”
“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.
No lol
We never saw Robb actually fight, did we? I’m just now realizing that lol
He beat the shit out of that tree
I stand corrected. He whooped a tree and some wildlings in the ass.
lol wanted to say that.
Fucker stood no chance
He kills the wildlings who grab Bran in season 1. The show gives him nothing else to do.
He killed 3 wildlings and captured Osha when Bran was ambushed. Very solid sequence by him considering it was a 4 v 1. Sadly it's the only time we see him fight in the show.
Ahh that’s right. I wish we could’ve seen some fight scenes from his little battle instead of just cutting straight to a guy getting his leg sawn off lmao
Yeah, one of my biggest disappointments with Robb in the show. They chose to focus on his genius strategic level intellect but every time the opportunity for a fight arose he either found a way out of it (e.g. when Jaime challenged him) or his men would fight for him.
At the time Jaime challenged him 1 V 1, Robb was winning battles as a result of his strategic intellect. Jaime would have killed him and he’d have been stupid to accept.
True, I’m not saying that isn’t the case either. Robb knew he’d get absolutely fucked in a fight against Jaime because he wasn’t nearly as good of a swordsman as Jaime was. However, I’m just using that as an example because that’s one of the only moments in the show where a fight is directly presented to Robb and it was completely avoided.
I’d have liked to see him fight in that battle at least, but Robb isn’t a POV character in the books, so they also present it through Catelyn in the show.
Jaime had him shitting himself in the books. Robb wanted no part of that
I mean not answering Jaimie's challenge was smart. Jamie cut down 10 of Robb's men before being subdued.
The scene with Jaimie, Grey Wind, and Robb is like the only time I actually got the feeling Robb was a badass
Yeah, honestly. Robb is still one of my favorite moments in the show but that scene where he had Jaime chained and intimidated him with Greywind was dope.
Robb would've been an idiot to have accepted Jaime's challenge.
Not sure I recall an example of this?
I never said he wouldn’t be.
The entirety of the war effort in S2 & S3. Robb was a leader and a strategist. We never saw him fight but we know his men fought and died for him.
Doesn't sound like it to me. Your comment:
He doesn't need to be a genius to know fighting Jaime 1v1 to decide the outcome of the war would be a dumb move.
He would be a complete moron if the show had had him accept that challenge. Yet you say it's disappointing that the show didn't do that.
Robb fought to save Bran from the deserters of the Wall in the first book, he seemed to do pretty well.
I'm thinking it was just him being older and that, given their experience in the show's run, Jon has long passed Rob
Jon only became really good because he kept on training like a beast. Hard to measure their skills, but I'd put 16 y/o Robb a clear level down from the top elite swordfighters that age like Loras. 16 y/o Jon is another level down from that, but by the end of the books so far he climbs a level. So if Robb had lived they'd be about equal.
The question is where does Jon rank among the known elites in their prime.
I'd say it's kinda tough to rank. He did a lot of sword training, but how much of his active combat (fighting to the death) was against trained knights, as opposed to wildlings. I mean I know botb was sworded, but I usually think of these questions from where he is in the books, which I suppose is not v relevant.
Jon is a far better soldier than I any of the famous swordsmen. Give either 20 men and let's say the kingswood as the arena and Jon has them scouted and ambushed in no time. That was what he really gained experience at. Small unit tactics and skirmishing.
And I bet, if he comes at them at night after ambushing their camp, he would defeat guys like Loras most of the time.
Of course, in a duel or trial by combat, he would be worse. But that's not what actual war is like. Because war is no fair 1v1 duels.
This is a good point. Th elite swordsmen were assets like superpowers and treated as such. You'd never send a Jaime or a Loras into a botb type situation. Jon was a bastard his whole Iife. In many ways he was worthless to society, and he was treated like a bastard and repeatedly thrown into shitty situations. He trained hard as fuck cause he knew that was going to be his life. Through training and experience he became like a delta force operator, lethal as fuck but not someone you'll ever see headlining a tourney
Yes. You don't need a strongman to have an elite soldier. Elite soldiers are usually fit, but also not ridiculously strong or ultra lean. They look like fit, normal people.
All of the famous swordsmen in GoT are treated like mythological heroes instead of being good at a rather specific form of athletics. It's one of the less realistic parts of GoT, despite GoT having this reputation of being realistic.
Irl, being good at holding a formation might be a more important skill in battle than being a good fighter. Scouting might be a lot more important than thundering over an open field with a lance.
So yeah, in their perfect environment, most of the famous knights of Westeros would beat Jon, If only because they wear armour and Jon somehow always wears furs. But why would we always assume perfect environment for them? Why not have them fight on an icey slope, after two weeks of no food except the stuff they foraged? Why not have both fight with bad, improvised weapons? That's as important as being good at fighting with a sword. Hell, it might be more important.
Probably well below the true elites like a jaime, mance, or selmy, but far ahead of average. I’d say something like top 5%-10% but a far ways away from the top 1%
He was also fighting against criminals/street urchins with little to no training with sword instructors/ master at arms from major castles.. obviously he was gonna be the best fighter on the wall
Jon was a better swordsman than Robb while they are both at winterfell. Robb is a better bow and better lance
Jon is a unreliable narrator and has a inferiority complex
He has humility, not a complex. He puts his foot down when needed, puts a bitch in its place when warranted (ramsay)
Your older brother will always be your older brother. For most of Jon's life Rob was bigger with several years more training and experience. Once they were both grown Jon would have closed the ability gap, but your older brother will always be your older brother.
This is the parallel foreshadowing that GRRM loves to do, Brandon vs Ned, Robert vs Jon
We also have to keep in mind that Jon is a bastard, while Robb was the heir of the house. Their treatment by others, especially by Catelyn, would have been fundamentally different. For Jon in particular, there’s also a strong element of self-fulfilling prophecy at work
All the stark kids are bonafide.
As a similar age example, loras would beat robb in a tourney, but would lose on the field.
People keep misunderstanding. Jon is amazing because he was noble around a bunch of commoners. He had a lifetime of personal training; and training from the best. I never got that Jon was amazing compared to other noble warriors. I do think he is good; he is just not amazing or great.
This is a world with no standing army other then The Wall. most armies was not people who trained with weapons and armor. This is the difference between a knight and a commoner.
Idk might have to factor in Genetics tho too? I mean he’s from pretty impressive stock on both sides
Jon’s not that great though. He’s the best swordsman in post s8 because everyone’s dead.
I don't know, in the TV-Series they hint that Jon is really good. Ramsay says he heard stories about how Jon was the greatest swordsman to have ever lived.
I don't know where he would have heard that from though, unless Jon was very popular.
In the books however Jon is still young and is not the elite fighter he is in the show. He’s capable and certainly better than plenty of his black brothers but Qhorin went about 10% effort and still nearly overwhelmed Jon. He’s more of a schemer and planner in the books than he is in the show, while having good ability with wielding Longclaw.
That’s just the show gassing him up cuz he’s the main character. Putting him on the level of people like Barristan Selmy, Jamie Lannister, or Arthur Dayne is just ridiculous.
The books intentionally try to break away from fantasy tropes, and one of the biggest tropes is “the main character is the best at everything he does.” The show doesn’t really care though and will lean into tropes.
Show vs tell
This never made sense to me, because in the books, JON was the better swordsman, while Robb was better with a lance.
Robb was a decent fighter. But he was a naturally gifted leader and tactician. Just like his father.
I kinda think of this as a throw away comment from a younger brother about his older brother who he perceives to be better than him. It’s a tale as old as time. Jon probably has it a little worse because he’s not a stark and is constantly reminded it with his own name.
He maybe meant just regular fighting. I imagine as boys they had little fights sometimes growing up and Jon lost more than he won. They're close in age, there would've been a ton of squabbling, and we know it's a verrrrry boys are tough environment so it was probably encouraged by Ser Rodrik. Add in Theon joining as ward and being a mouthy pain in the ass, there must've been brawls between them and being the eldest and strongest Robb would totally win. He would seem the best and most capable fighter Jon knew, and the one he compared himself to until joining The Watch
In the books, Jon himself says that he’s better with a sword, but rob is the better Lance. And George has said that Jon is above average as a swordsman. So we can surmise that Robb must’ve only been slightly worse than Jon with a sword, and it’s probably because of Jon’s smaller and leaner build, which makes him faster.
Rob is very good... for a Watch Recruit. He isn't necessarily very good when compared to equally trained, more experienced swordsmen of noble families.
You have to remember the context if yiu don't remember the actual wprds said to him. He was kicking ass in a class where nobody else had ever held a sword. That isn't very difficult.
Then he did get more experienced, and got better (we assume). I don't recall anywhere it says he was a prodigy with the blade. Competent, and even relatively good, but remember hes only 14 -16 year old kid. He's probably fast, energetic, and a strong kid but he's still a kid with limited experience.
Ok offshoot but related question
Grey Wind VS Ghost?
Both would have been very respected knights had they lived long enough
Well, Robb at least considers himself not as good as Jaime in a duel. He declined a duel with Jaime because he assumed that Jaime (pre-hand cut off) would win.
Show not adapting the books word for word.
Robb was a better rider, jouster, and was the more suitable brother being a Lordling to a Great House. Later it is shown Robb is seemingly a better military comatose.
Jon was a better sword fighter and better at maths. But the text also supports Jon being a better politician, having better economic skills, and just a better leader in general. Jon also is clearly also very attractive since it seems like a lot of woman either throw themselves at him or flirt with him.
Robb was an incredible general and was able to rally many people to his side but he couldn’t plan ahead far enough or pull off the political maneuvering to win and survive. Jon was a better leader since he could plan ahead further and not just win the loyalty of others but maintain, but he lacked self confidence, and failed to keep his most trusted and closest allies and supporters around him leading to his stabbing.
Imo, Jon was made a better fighter by Thorne and maybe others at the Wall.
But I assume that both Ned and Rob were excellent fighters and the argument for the best fighter is skewed toward those competing in tournaments.
So... As a lover Jon was better with his sword? But Rob could direct his bow better? Maybe they just had different styles. 😐
Rob was very good with his sword, sticking it in where it shouldn’t be and all.
Well maybe Robb had the edge in beginning but Jon had 8 seasons to train and gain exp, I say Robb was capable and good for a noble though.
Robb was better with a lance, Jon was the better swordsman
Jon Snow is like John McLane.. he finds a way to win against all odds
Its also possible Jon is unintentionally downplaying his own skill here, due to his own feelings of inferiority in general regarding Rob
Tbh.... He was great but jon snow was just better
Jon was unlikely to have been capable of anything approaching objectivity here. He saw himself as 'second rate' by dint of his bastard status alone. This likely would have bled into his comparisons between himself and his 'trueborn' peer.
He was older, he would have been better. It might have changed when they were adults.
spoiler: Jon wasn't a really good fighter
Yeahhhh I'm fairly certain this line is only in the show. In the books Jon only fought like... 5 people? 1 of which is an undead wight. The other a wildling he took by surprise. He lost his fight against mance iirc and the half hand let him kill him. Jon is definitely better than the average non trained person sure but a great fighter the way we think of Jaime, Barristan, Oberyn, Arthur Dayne etc? Nah lol
Yeah mance using sub optimal equipment cleans jons clock without breaking a sweat.
Mance is an adult and Jon is 16. Mance is also a legendary fighter in his own right.
Two things can be true, Jon is clearly not yet on the level of the elite adult fighters (Selmy, Jaime, Hound, Mountain, Drogo, Qorin, Mance, Oberyn, etc)
BUT he also clearly has huge potential and GRMM is obviously building him up as a powerful up and comer. He is always training and numerous characters comment on his natural ability and potential.
Yeah the smiling knight was a man and a legendary fighter, and jamie was holding his own at 16 , impressing everyone including the sword of the morning, who took a reasonable time to defeat him and then knighted jamie. That's how an elite fighter does at 16. John got saddled up and rode.
You have far too narrow a view of what constitutes “good”. Even if 16 year old Jaime was better, Jon is still very good by any measure.
There's a difference between good and very good
In the books Jon isn’t really an exceptional fighter. Like he’s certainly good but that’s not his main thing. He’s primarily a strategist and a politician. Book Jon and show Jon are completely different characters.
Rob likewise isn’t exceptional, he’s good but not on the level of like Loras or Jamie.