This is my 9th rewatch and I somehow never noticed it. I think binge watching everything back to back makes it way more noticeable. I thought they ruined her character in the last 2 seasons but she was literally always like this. Its like people have conversations with her but she is having a different conversation entirely.
In earlier seasons she seemed fine but once in Westeros the same behavior seemed so out of touch and extreme. Every conversation she has with anyone...no matter the topic she somehow doesn't hear them and resorts to "bending the knee". Every time she says those words I cringe. Even before she got to the North and the Dothraki hoard kidnapped her, instead of having conversations, she leads with that. When trying to abolish slavery, she leads with that. Its like...she doesn't live in reality, doesn't understand humans or economies or anything really outside of bend the knee or die. Everywhere she goes chaos and civil unrest follows. She literally destabilizes entire cities and economies which lead to more suffering. The USA had slavery 400+ years ago and still the effects of it are not fully gone. Someone thinking they can end it in a day or a year or even a decade is just delusional. Getting mad at Varys for serving the people but not her? People who want to make the world better in reality don't demand blind loyalty.
More examples of her not listening: Jon warning her abt the dead at dragonstone, the north and their culture meaning they won't follow her...and y would they? She even says Sansa doesn't recognize her as queen? Why would she? Who are you? You just flew up here and demanded loyalty?
I think she is a warlord and very very dumb. Imagine this personality type in any other context or show? Its like a spoiled mean girl who has never left the suburb she was raised in then leaves and expects everyone to serve her purely because of her genetics. It very much gives white savior.
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It might be because youre on your 9th rewatch diva !
😂😂yea you might have a point but I haven't rewatched it since the show ended years ago. The rewatches were yearly everytime a new season came out😔
I never rewatched after s8. The ending was nuclear.
Tbh it took me a while to rewatch after the ending because at the time I hated it and thought they ruined her character. But now I think her arc is the 1 thing they got right. I just don't see her ending any other way.
Me too, I saw her Dragon lady arc back when she was in Qarth but it needed a few more seasons of polishing. D&D should have taken a few years gap, and do the 13 season run. Because of their rush, they lost their A list status.
She is the show’s counterweight to characters like Tyrion and the Hound. Everyone treats them worse than they deserve because of the way they look. The audience got that. Everyone treats Daenerys better than she deserves because of the way she looks. Most of the audience missed that because they were doing it themselves.
Oh 1000% on the looks thing. I was guilty of this too. I grew up on this show and for me pretty girl+dragons= Take her side for everything because she can never be wrong because she is gorgeous and has dragons.
Side note: I love the hound. He is hilarious.
It's a boiling frog storyline where the audience is supposed to be invested in Dany as her decisions grow murkier as time goes on, but the audience is made to justify it due to their investment and the confounding factors that brush over the arbitrariness and cruelty.
Viserys dying we brush over, he had threatened Dany's life and her child, and Drogo was even the one to choose to kill him. Mirri Maz Dur, despite having great reason to want vengeance against Dany and Drogo (and very possibly not actually doing harm), is cast as a villain in presumably targeting Dany's child and misleading Dany about reviving Drogo. The Qartheen, specifically the Warlocks, sought to capture her and Dany's dragons, so we overlook the looting of the manses.
In Slaver's Bay, Dany fights slavers, so we overlook that not all of the Masters are necessarily actual slave owners or proponents of the system. That Dany's arbitrary justice even crucified a man who spoke out against the cruelties of slavery. Eventually, we come to Westeros, where now we are invested in the opposing characters in a similar measure to Dany herself and their evils grow lesser. The Tarly's choosing the wrong side, and Randyll refusing to bend the knee.
And then it's the common people of King's Landing who suffer one of Dany's 'righteous' sacks. With the veil lifted progressively as the story goes. Even if somewhat haphazardly at the end.
That's how I see it as well. Dany's descent into madness was slow and gradual, but masked by righteous intentions.
I don't understand how people claim they got whiplash when she roasted King's Landing. She's been on that mad queen trajectory since Season 2
Because doing it to clearly evil people is way different than doing it to common folk. She's no Walter White, every single act was clearly justified for 6 seasons, then out of nowhere she's torching innocents.
They really weren’t. Killing MMD wasn’t justified at all.
At the time it is. The witch took out 2 people Dany cared about. Also, losing drogo meant Dany would be enslaved and possibly killed so she was ready to die in that pyre.
Because she burns people she thinks stands between her and paradise.
She tries to liberate the common people from slavery. Therefore her "burn them all" should be about seeing everyone as a slave master or trying to kill her or deny her the throne, even if that's not true.
You're so right, wow!! Also, don't forget she also threatened to burn down Qarth when they refused her at first. Only delusion and entitlement would lead someone to believe that they will be safe as guests in a city they threatened to burn down, especially without the power to burn it down at the time.
JUSTICE FOR MIRRI MAZ DUR!
I never let an opportunity to support Mirri pass me by.
Except she's such an entitled brat the last two seasons.
Loved Jon pretty much telling her, "No offense, but I have NO idea who you even are!!!"
I really wish they had actually finished that boiling frog story rather than just having her go off the deep end out of nowhere. Proving the viewers wrong for liking her would have been so much more effective than just lying to us about the character. They do it with every character by the end, Sansa is smart because we are told she is, theon is a coward because rape/torture only makes you strong if you're a woman, bran is the 3 eyed raven but is also Bran Stark and was plotting this whole thing, Jaime never cared about people "Innocent or otherwise". It's so frustrating.
We don't just over look it, we prasie her for it like Tyrion tells Jon.
For the show vs book difference in Mereen is that the Slavers are all supporters of slavery, its called Slavers Bay. Yeah, some are way more depraved like the guy who sold her the unsullied but none of them are innocent they’re all guilty.
Like these people in charge are unambiguously evil, and unfortunately Dany isn’t pragmatic enough to fully quash them when she couldve.
The big moral conundrum is the kids, they are innocent, she takes a bunch as hostages but then when it comes down to it she’s definitely not willing to harm those kids. And the slavers take advantage of the fact that she’s not evil enough to harm child hostages.
But another big moral failing is when she first sent out orders of who counted as ‘kids’…she said up to 13, because thats when she stopped counting herself as a kid. So yeah a bunch of innocents did die when she was taking the cities because its impossible to sack a city bloodlessly.
The problem in the books is that she should’ve gone all fire and blood on all the Slavers but instead there’s so many times later when she caves slightly to the slavers whispering in her ears, and a bunch of her councillors are shady borderline evil themselves. Like Jorah mormont in the show is a good guy not a shitty slaver and a bastard. Missandei and Grey Worm are both mostly good in the books and show. ‘The road to hell is paved with good intentions’. Dany is supposed to be a good person that falls over time because she’s boxed in between worse choices, choosing the lesser evil over and over again is still evil even though she is ‘the promised prince’.
They kind of flanderized her over time, like Robb and Stannis. They made her less complicated. All of them faced impossible choices where the honourable path wasn’t possible to still win and their people count on them/need them.
Yeah, there's a lot of nuance in the book that smooths out the transition while maintaining the reader's belief in Dany's righteousness. But we do see some spitefullness or bitterness peeking through, Dany comparing the women of Meereen's noble houses bitter at her Fire and Blood treatment of their husbands and sons with her own bitterness towards 'the usurper and his dogs.' And every now and then there's a little moment that puts a highlight over Dany being willing to go too far.
Like with Dany having the Meereenese wineseller's daughters tortured in front of him, even though he likely is not involved with the Sons of the Harpy nor the recent murder in his shop.
Particularly as it's noted that Dany didn't want to torture him initially, thinking he might not be involved in the killings, but anger at the loss of her councilor (a separate situation) led to her lashing out.
Dany even calling her new decision to inflict pain 'the dragon's mercy.' Very ominously put with purpose.
Yeah thats true, she messes up and does cruel decisions a lot without people around her to tell her no and guide her to better/more honourable decisions. Barristan is a yes man.
Thank you for the example, I’d honestly forgotten that one. The sons of the harpy also hd sympathizers like secretly the green grace iirc, torturing random people who were framed is such a shit way to get rid of insurgents. Torturing at all tbf.
You're the one they call "The Dog".
Yep, I think GRRM wants to break the 'ideal ousted pretty princess' trope, but many viewers seemingly were on board with said trope.
And let's be honest... if Dany was 'Dan', an unattractive male, people would not give the same 'allowance' on the leash that Dany had.
I actually disagree. I think shes a dual critique alongside Jon. Of the messianic savior trope common in fiction. What happens when so much power and pressure is put onto someone. They crack and collapse like jon or fall to their worst impulses like dany. Its also why I repeatedly deny her "going mad" she never went mad, shes been like that from the start. The show tried its best to show that. Tyrions last line is in reference to that. Danys own last lines make it clear yet people just go "oap she went crazy out of nowhere"
Interesting way to say boobs and butt 🤣
Would any man follow her if she was ugly? 😂😂😂
Dany's experience and arc is so interesting to me. The actress who played her and the other actors in the cast never saw that she wasn't a hero. That makes her an intriguing person. GRRM managed to write a person whose desire to end slavery and sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne co-exist in a person who has no education for governance, no sense of history, no self-doubt sufficient to make her think maybe she is not a savior.
That is quite an accomplishment for the author. It is also an education in how the general public can fall for people who aren't equipped to fix the world. So many Dany fans are still certain that her arc on the show is not what we will see in the books.
But Stannis is just as convinced he is the true king. Damn, how many people are deluded about this? And how many Stannis fans are entirely convinced he is the Mannis? Damn George, you really are exposing what is crazy about life.
This! I found her very interesting and resilient but also very childish. She IS very young in the books though, yes? Basically a teenager.
Yes, she's 13 at the beginning of the books and something like 16 or 17 at the end.
He will always be Stannis the Mannis to me from now on.
There used to be a loooot more Stannis the Mannis fans before the show reveals he burns his own daughter. Then they all melted away lmao
160 years
Oh lol! Well I'm not a historian but you get my point.
I mean you don’t have to be a historian to know 1776 is when America was founded as a country and in order to have a civil war that abolition of slavery would be after that
Not everyone is American. I don't know what year England formed. I know it was about 1000 years ago.
Shocking, but sometimes people you talk to are not from America and the specific details of America’s history are not known or relevant to them :)
But the USA is literally the centre of the world so surely it's relevant to everyone? /S
Btw I'm not joking. Apparently world maps from the USA put America in the centre, so Asia has to be divided into 2
I've lived in the US for 35 years and I don't know if I've ever seen a world map that puts the US in the center. Got an example?
That's straight up misinformation, I've never once seen a map with the US in the middle and Asia divided in 2. Lived in the US my whole life.
only the maps the us uses. the rest of the world puts them on the left
I've lived in the US my entire life and never seen this. Maps always have the Pacific as the "back"
Just off the top of your head, when was Peru founded?
Are you familiar with rhetorical devices?
Thank you
Thank you.
She is far too rigid in her treatment of anyone she perceives as an enemy i.e. Jorah who she should have forgiven when it was clear he was not spying on her, and in fact loved her and did everything for her. She doesnt have any warmth or empathy which makes the Jon arc hard to believe. I realise this can be contested.
How would any of that be clear to Dany? She's not a mind reader. For all Dany knows, Jorah could go back to spying on her if she rejects his advances.
The Jorah thing is also affected by the writers white washing him. Book Jorah is an unrepentant slaver who is trying to sleep with a 13 year old because she looks like his wife. He tries to get in-between her and all of her other advisors and kisses her without her permission. They make Jorah a sad sack who's pining after a 20 something so some people think he's entitled to forgiveness when he's not.
Oh I agree! She is extremely black and white in her thinking. And irl w/her personality the Jon arc would be that he wanted to hook up with her cus she is hot, she falls in what she thinks is love (ego based obsession) with him because he is everything she thinks she is, then he rejects her and she gets angry and lashes out and forces him to have to kill her. Same ending(he kills her), same beginning(they hook up). Different road to get there.
Aging her up without altering her backstory makes her seem rigid, but in reality she is, what - a 14-16 years old kid? She has borderline magic powers and clearly tries to establish a code, based on this and that, picking up things from her surroundings as she goes. And she grows up in a land with either masters or slaves, that's as black and white as it gets lol Literally everyone around her has an ulterier motive and she knows it, despite her brother never fully realising it.
She's never really among people, unlike Jon, because these aren't her people. She doesn't have a people, so she has to create this code from above, not from within, the way Jon learns from his father and from being part of a structure bigger than him. Dany on the other hand has always been atop a structure she doesn't fully understand.
That's very true. One of the saddest scenes for her is after the Long Night at Winterfell, where everyone is rejoicing, and she doesn't fit in at all. Even her making Gendry Lord of Storm's End falls flat.
Yeah, it's pretty much her entire journey if we could see it from her eyes, but in that moment it clicks for her that she's a stranger to everyone and everyone is a stranger to her. Her closest person is someone who attempted to kill her, and who is in love with her, being much older as well. Not a singular friend, besides I suppose Missandei, but I don't think they even have any friendly moments either. Missandei is also more like an employee of the month in terms of hierarchy.
If the whole thing was told from her personal view it would be a very depressing show/books lol I don't think that girl had a moment of joy.
Yes that scene stood out to me too. She just sits there. Why not make allies? Go make friends. Leadership is political not just burning stuff.
Dany never learned how to build bridges. That contributed to her downfall.
I think you also would be if your entire life has been escaping assassination attempts from a guy you've never met, because your older brother who you've never met, kidnapped a girl you've never met to make prophesy babies you'd end up pretty ruthless and rigid to those you can't trust.
I definitely think she has empathy, just not warmth. She's capable of understanding and relating to others, she's just not very kind to those who wrong her. Because yeah, if you grow up not being able to trust literally anyone because they might kill you I think you'd end up pretty ruthless as well. Viserys even proved to her that not even he could be trusted.
Daenerys spent her life escaping assassins until she was married off to Drogo. She was sheltered and unable to develop socially like a normal person.
Her relationships are forged through conquering slavers or men simply falling at her feet. Viserys was an abusive jerk so no healthy connection there either. Her only semi-healthy relationship was Missandei and we saw what happened with that situation.
It’s no surprise that as she comes into her power that she rejects her advisors guidance. Daenerys didn’t know how to conduct normal social relationships outside of what she received through her beauty and power. That’s why she was like a fish out of water at Winterfell. She couldn’t earn the north with her dragon fire or beauty. There was nothing to conquer there and the Northerners have deep social connections with each other that go back 1000 years. She had no real power there and she was ill equipped to handle that vulnerability she felt at being powerless.
Daario said it himself. She wasn’t meant for an iron chair, she was a conqueror. And he was right. She didn’t particularly enjoy ruling Meereen, she was going to enjoy it even less in Kings Landing. She didn’t want to rule, she wanted the crown, just like the rest of them.
Dany is the USA in the Middle East. Book 4 comes out in 2005 and he did significant rewrites to make her align with his criticism of the US “peace efforts”.
George is a very anti-war dyed in the tie hippie type.
yea! Perfect real world example! A colonialist through and through but with better branding and messaging
Dany isn't a colonist at all. She pointedly did not intend to maintain any power over the slave cities. That's part of the reason Astapor and Yunkai could be retaken so easily. She left Mereen with plans for them to elect their own leader.
Dark Star crashes…….
I viewed it like as she became closer to her believed destiny she became more like her father the mad king.
I’m on my 3rd rewatch and we did seasons 2-5 in a week because we had the flu haha and it is WAAAAY more noticeable how cunty she really is.
Yes she means well but she’s too obsessed with ruling, like her brother. And she just sucks at ruling.
Meereen could have been easily helped if she accepted the fighting pit thing, as awful as that was. It’s not all about you.
Truth be told, even in the books, she causes nothing but chaos everywhere she goes.
Is she like an allegory for America?
That’s what I’m noticing now haha
She did accept it. The slavers used the re-opening to try to assassinate her.
Outside of the assassinations, they were using slaves in the fighting pit. Tyrion and Jorah would have been fed to lions or something if they get put in front of Dany beforehand. Dany wasn't concerned with herself when she was refusing reopen them. They're used to brutalize people for other people's entertainment.
I never had an issue with her seemingly quick turn, because it wasn't quick. She was always the Mad Queen but she had Tyrion Jorah and Missandei to guide her, and they kept her from horrific acts. But she lost them all in a quick span in Season 8. So she was left to make her own decisions. And remember Missandeis last words "Dracarys", she literally told Dany to Burn it all down. When she heard the Bells thats what she thought and it was just her on the Dragon so thats what we got. Then GreyWorm follows her lead on the ground. People who feel it was rushed bother me cause it really wasnt, with fewer episodes we lost filler scenes that support the main storyline. That's all.
In the past, I would've disagreed with you but you are right! The signs were there from day 1.
That's an obvious sock puppet.
https://i.gifer.com/8f0O.gif
The source material had her as a niave 14 year old and the show aged her up, but kept everything else, so I think that was the problem
Yea as has been said I don’t mind her pre Westeros. Once thy land in dragon stone I can’t stand her they did a terrible job with character development it feels very very rushed.
It did feel rushed! They sped up alot of the travel timelines too. But watching every season back to back in a week, nothing she does is suprising at all.
2-3 seasons of her going down the villain arc would have sufficed. But I think she showed signs when she decided to lock that maid of hers that betrayed her in a vault to die of thirst and hunger.
Aside from the obvious psychopaths, she is my least favorite character. I'm a first time watcher about to start season 5, and I started noticing a lack of character development.
So many characters evolved and grew and changed. She's just boring and I don't enjoy her plot lines.
It's boring and I'm surprised they didn't do more with her.
I thought it was one of the greatest plot twists in history. I was totally rooting for her the whole way through until she heard the bells ringing and still burnt the city down. Then I realized she had been crazy the whole time.
I still think that when she lost Jorah and Missandei, she lost her moral compass.
Idt she ever had a genuine moral compass. She is self righteous. That was just the excuse she finally got to do what she wanted to do all along which was burn kings landing. That was her suggestion from the minute they got to dragon stone
Or driven mad by ending slavery only to have it re established ..Losing everyone & everything she had after a lifetime of having no one.. she started out thinking she could make the world a better place is she ruled it then found out you can't because Mankind always goes back to its preset button.. Greed, Ambition, Treachery, Violence ..
You dont end slavery her way. It takes generations
The amount of times she felt entitled and demanded people bend the knee is excruciating. People fooled themselves when it came to not seeing her heel turn coming.
The only time she demanded anyone bend the knee was the Lannister army after they massacred the Reach. Swearing fealty was the terms for their pardon. Jon had Ned Umber & Aly Karstark swear fealty in order to keep their lands & titles.
I mean, maybe you haven't seen all of Season 7, but when she first meets Jon at Dragonstone she clearly demanded he bend the knee... it was literally the reason she thought he was there.
And then literally punished him for his refusal (imprisonment.)
She absolutely felt entitled to it, multiple times, per the previous posters post.
Exactly, Jon was like, "No offense, but I don't even KNOW who the hell you even are!!!"
Early on I liked her and felt bad for her. Then she became a power hungry dictator.
Im one of the few I know that always found her insufferable. Disliked her throughout the entire series and legitimately cheered when she died even on the four rewatches.
The last two seasons she was beyond terrible, pretty much an entitled brat, DEMANDING everyone BOW to her.
Exactly! Usually people downvote me to hell for saying Dany was basically always crazy or always on that path. Even before her dragons were fully grown and she had nothing to offer anyone, she threatened to burn all of quarth for turning her away. Which they did not have to take her in. They were a very isolated community outside of their port. Outsiders could easily equal widespread illnesses. Why should they have to take on that risk or fear being burned to death...in the future?
She never cared about other people's culture, if she did Khal Drogo probably would've lived because she wouldn't have let the witch touch him or even listen to too many of her words. Just like you said everywhere she goes chaos ensues.
She was going to die if they didn't let her in.
Yes she was. But for Quarth they also risked the innocent lives of their city as well. It's not Quarth's fault she was out there with nothing starving. It's her own for doing that black magic they told her not to do.
Yes she always acted like an impetous child because I think she always was mentally. Never had a great head on her shoulders and was under the belief that because she is a targaryen she is owed everything. She also has no clue of the world and how it works or how to behave. Her knowledge level on everything is pretty much zero. I'm rewatching also and that's what I've noticed about her personality. Just a sheltered child no clue of the outside world throwing tantrums when she doesn't get what she wants. In a way not too dissimilar from Joffrey really. May be a hot take but really when you analyze it.
Yes. Can't stand her
i never liked her on my first watch either
Her attitude of “I deserve everything I want because of who Iam” instead of earning it was pretty embarrassing and insufferable sometimes but she clearly has a good heart and does work towards earning what she wants, sometimes…. But that’s why we like characters right? People aren’t perfect and that’s how we relate and seeing people overcome themselves is always beautiful. Unfortunately she keeps that shitty attitude till the end…
😭😭😭😭😭 Why won't the Northern Isolationists bend the knee to MEEEEEEEEE????
"She literally destabilizes entire cities and economies which lead to more suffering. The USA had slavery 400+ years ago and still the effects of it are not fully gone. Someone thinking they can end it in a day or a year or even a decade is just delusional."
Oh no! People are getting enslaved! It's a shame we can't help them, it would hurt the poor economy🥺🥺🥺
https://imgur.com/a/SwiRamQ
But EVERYWHERE she goes, she causes nothing but chaos.
True man, the just slavers gave everybody a calm life, shame the slaves went from a stable, happy and purposeful life to such a chaotic and unsure life as freemen, im sure they would rather go back
Also the seven kingdoms, under queen cersei the great, tommen the holy before her and joffrey the just before him were SO peaceful and just, such a shame she invaded them. Such a beautiful dynasty ruined by the mad queen, who except freeing slaves and saving the world from the white walkers NEVER did anything good. I'm sure that without her the north would have defeated the white walkers and deposed queen cersei without spilling any innocent blood
She’s annoying to no end. Everyone around her is only there because they either feel indebted to her for freeing them or they want to sleep with her. The sole exceptions are the Selmy, Tyrion and Varis who see her as a means for revenge and/or power.
She has no ability to lead or inspire based on inner qualities. If you take away her being fire proof and hot she would’ve been killed by Dragos people.
Barristan, Tyrion and Varys are all there because they believe she'd be a good ruler they all explicitly say as much.
Incorrect. Tyrion is there because he hates his family and wants to exact revenge. Varis says MANY times in the series that he doesn’t care about any single ruler but instead cares about the people. Dany is the best current option and he believes more in Tyrion than he does Dany which is why he pushes for Tyrion to be her hand. As soon as John Snow comes onto the scene Varis knows HE’S the best option… He “literally” dies because he knows she’s a terrible person and not a good leader 🤣
What exactly made Varys think that? Or that Jon was a better person or ruler?
Tyrion arrives there because he hates his family, and he also kinda has nothing better to do, but he's convinced that she's actually worth it and a good ruler. He then continues to say as much. He ends up not even hating his family all that much as he tries to spare Cersei in the end.
You are right about Varys, but his reasons for turning on her are quite stupid and I'll defined in the show. By the time he betrays her Dany hasn't done anything that's uncommon or especially evil among the lords of Westeros. Burning the Tarlys and being sad and angry that her friends are dying or betraying her are her only crimes by that point, and Jon hasn't exactly proven himself to Varys other than being a good person.
It would be one thing for him to no longer support her as the best option and another to betray her entirely. He supported Robert for 17 years, Arys for idk how long and Joeffrey for one or two. This mf also supported Viserys secretly and wanted him to invade with an army of rapists. Yet tries to kill Dany for being sad.
My point being Varys' reasons for betraying her suck and are inconsistent with his character. By that point he betrays her she's not at all worse than the people he's supported before. Especially not "kill immediately" bad.
9th rewatch 💀
Dany got caught up on her Mhysa hype thinking it can apply to Westeros. Westeros isn't Essos and that's what she didn't understand and refused to.
Totally agree, but kinda can't believe it took you this long to notice, people have been saying this for years, even while the show was still airing, and even about Book Dany as well.
I think this video explains it really well, there are other similar analyses but this one is cheeky and interesting.
Ok your comment made me do math🤕. This show came out when I was 16. The last season came out when I was 25. My brain clearly wasn't developed. Needless to say, there is a reason they charge more for car rentals when you're under 25 and I fully get it now. I was like stubbornly obsessed with her because of the dragons and I thought she was pretty. And they play video game hero/deity music everytime she lights something on fire.
Her whole storyline just seemed kind of blunt and simple compared to all the subterfuge, backstabbing, and intricate plots in Westeros. Whenever the story switches to Dany I felt like I was waiting for it to be over.
Yes
Even before her dragons grew to a threatening size, she was always threatening to burn cities and constantly use force on anyone that disagreed with her. Her philosophy of freeing the slaves seems like a really good thing to do, but even after she does and says they're free to go, it's an unspoken threat that if you go against her in any way, your ass is getting torched. She's an interesting character, but people acting like her outcome wasn't a natural progression or that she could ever be the bad guy were not paying attention. I personally don't hate anything about the final 2 seasons, sure... I wish it were longer and a little more drawn out, but so be it.
Oh 10000% to the coerced unsullied army!
[deleted]
Season 5 where she bluntly states she would return Mereen to the dirt because 'the people do not get to choose.'... painfully clear context.
Also in Season 6 when she bluntly tells Tyrion her plan is to raze all the slave cities, and Tyrion has to literally compare her to the Mad King to stop her.
Also, Season 2 outside of Qarth, but technically they aren't a slave city, but again is proof she is willing to massacre innocents if she feels like it.
Clear pattern objectively portrayed/Checkhov's gun.
Adorable she goes all 'eye for an eye' to start her stint in Mereen and executes people who literally fought against the crime they were executed for, but people try and act like Dany did nothing wrong during her time there.
Have people actually seen this show without the triple-thick rose-colored glasses?
I love Emilia Clarke I really do but her acting was very weak as Dany. Very very one note and unconvincing
That wasn't a problem with Emelia Clark. The show runners had her act that way. She complained about it, but they insisted on her being cold most of the time. They did the same thing with Bran, Arya, and Sansa(to a lesser degree) in the later seasons.
YES!!! I disagree in general with the idea that someone deserves to lead because of the family their born into, but she was driving me crazy! By the time she got to westeros, a land where she did not grow up and knew nothing about it was insane for her to expect loyalty when no one who who tf she was. Every time she said "bend the knee" I rolled my eyes. I think the writers did her so so dirty. I know the point was to make her unlikeable and more tyrannical to justify her ending, but damn they just made her seem so entitled.
She was always entitled. Threatening to burn down Qarth if they didn't let her in...while also saying she and her dragons would starve and die if they didn't let her in? Such a bizarre way to handle something like that. She needs to read how to win friends and influence people
If I remember right Qarth was going to let them starve to death outside. She'd say literally anything to get inside, dragons are really the only thing they have to bargain with.
"I have dragons and I will help you burn your enemies when they grow up if you let me in"? Just an example but instead of threatening people with power you don't have, maybe offer them something? Idk just a thought
She had character development tho? she gave the Unsullied a choice to either be free or to serve her , if she was a warlord she would've just taken full control after killing the masters, but instead she throws away the staff and gives them a choice. Instead of forcefully taking the North, she worked together with Jon and listened to him
She also takes on Tyrion as an advisor, when she could've just killed him since he was from an enemy house
She knew she made mistakes, which is why she had Varys and Tyrion by her side, she wanted to be guided by those who had experience , which was a very smart move. As well as working with Jon and his people instead of attacking them for not bending the knee
And this is why people were pissed about season 7-8, all that character development gets thrown out the window with barely any explanation
if George RR Martin finished the last 2 books, we could have better understanding of why Dany started to backtrack on her character development. The plot points made sense, but they just happened for the sake of wrapping up the story, we needed alot more context
You're missing the point with his biased, rose-colored glasses take.
She wasn't constantly 'good' for Seasons 1-7. She clearly was portrayed as having an internal conflict where her inner conflict is comprised of her warring personas... that 'kind'hearted' idealistic side that wants to 'be better' versus that primal Fire and Blood persona that just wants to burn anything she perceives as standing in her way.
These two forces CLEARLY are portrayed for the first seven seasons. There's no 'throwing anything out the window' like you claim just because you want to cherry pick her positive aspects and pretend like that is how she was wholly portrayed... she simply was not.
You are just proving the loudest complaints come from the most biased viewers... those who have erroneously romanticized her the most.
You are correct. Hell, they specifically added scenes and dialog for show dany related to this. To emphasize her darker side. For show dany her fans got caught up in exactly what tyrion described her as getting caught up in herself. Her constantly being worshipped and dealing with objectively evil people on her rise. Meanwhile for her book counterpart her fans get caught up with that and general pity since she starts as a 13 year old child undergoing this rather than the late teens of her show counterpart.
I was always intrigued by her response to Jorah telling her she had a kind heart. What she heard was weakness and she couldn't tolerate that shit. Notice how she recoils... " You are too familiar"....
Her "choice" to the unsullied is coercion. Freedom isn't just "not being enslaved". Its also the presence of other viable options. Where are they gonna go? They have no resources, social network and had their indentities abused out of them from childhood. She just destroyed their only known way of life/survival(even if a terrible one) so naturally the next offered alternative looks good to them?
Its like child soldiers or people who join gangs or emancipated slaves being able to join the army. Sure they have a "choice" but the other alternative doesn't exist.
And notice...there is no mention of her paying them. What makes her better than their masters? Someone else still benefits from them risking their lives for free. Is the benefit that they can walk away? And go where? And to who?
I was gonna say, she said they were free, but did she even pay them???
Do you think the Starks paid their men?
Her delusion that she’s a good ruler because of these points are exactly the reason why she was toxic. She keeps on gaslighting herself that her ways are “good” and it was only evident on the last season. I also thought that her character was thrown out but later on I realized that she never changed and we only get to see this toxicity when she already had the power to destroy a city
You lost me on the Dothraki and Slavers point, "having conversations" with virulent and unrepetant slavers that kill kids to make a point and want to enslave her as a war trophy is a stupid point. How do you moderately address something like Slavers Bay without force? Wait till its conveniant for the slave economies to not be that while they turn another thousand kids into eunuch foot soldiers?
Her entire arc in Mereen is her trying to keep the peace by compromising. She marries Hisdar, she reopens the fighting pits, she executes the slave who killed the captured Harpy, she allows the slave to work for his former master. All that doesn't work so yeah, she killed them.
She literally does exactly that and the slavers prove it's the wrong move at like every turn. After the initial crucifixions, which was deserved, she immediately starts comprising and compromising. I have no idea what they mean by this.
She doesn't belong there. Who is she to tell an ancient city how to live? Who is she to apply her morality to other humans? Why would they negotiate with a foreign terrorist? As far as they're concerned she shouldnt be there. She tried the same thing in westeros and got the same resistence and westeros doesn't have slaves. The common trait is that she doesn't belong there and she has no right to dictate how other humans should or shouldnt live.
Slavery is bad. We didn't get rid of it by waiting patiently. Like we should be able to agree slavery is bad. I also think killing 100 children is bad. You don't have to have some title or live there to determine that. Who is she to apply her morality? A decent fucking person that's what.
What is the answer to your question here? Is she missing some title so say slavery is bad? She also doesn't live anywhere, does that mean she's not allowed to have an opinion? Robert has had her chased from Westeros to the Dothraki sea.
And if you don't think right of conquest is legitimate then you should be fucking screaming at Robert for making laws after taking a throne because who is he to tell people how to live?
Foreigners have been invading and taking thrones since time began, don't act like it's some uniquely stupid thing Dany did. Even in the world of Game of Thrones, this isn't unique. Aegon was a foreigner and his family ruled for 300 years.
She is a missionary and a white savior. They love applying their morality to brown people too. Then ironically, those brown people they "save" somehow end up dead. Dothraki...dead(front lines when the night king came). Unsullied...dead. Dragons...dead. Missandei...dead. Same story except it looks nice because she is fighting "slavery".
I'm not saying slavery is right. I'm saying she is wrong. And because she is wrong, she got the same results as every other white savior in history. Genocide and suffering for people of color
Cool, she just "liberated" a city, and had no plan on how to govern it afterwards.
..Wtf? You were the one just arguing that Dany should have negotiated instead of threatning them.
Dany had Westerosi going half way around the world to get to come to Westeros. She had two and half kingdoms backing her before she step foot in the country. The writers had to kill off or sideline her allies just to get to place where she still had local support.
What show are you watching?
You mean she wrongfully imprisons him after feeding some randos to her dragons, then while he's in in cell, she demands they get married for her own political gain... is that what you mean by 'compromising'? LOL.
Yep.
How is this a 'compromise'? Basic justice over a wrongful murder is a 'compromise' in your eyes?
Allowing someone to work for someone else as a job is a 'compromise'?
I mean, there is one compromise here. Two pretty basic ruling standards. And one 'you're forcibly marrying me against your will because the city is imploding and I don't care if you die because of this in the next scene.' (Which he did.)
Wild anyone is so desperate to try and give Dany all the 'compromosing the whole time' credit in Mereen, especially after how she started things there... wild.
I loved her up until the last bit. Mostly anyway. But I wouldn't say insufferable.
One thing I think gets overlooked too is that there was a subtle foreshadowing of Dany being betrayed by someone she was close to and killed in the end throughout the whole series. They mentioned the concept of the King Slayer and Mad Targaryen’s a lot in the series, and her death aligned with her fathers. They both were drunk on power. Her father wanted to burn the city down, and she was talking about conquering the entire world, and “the hero” of the time needed to step up, and betray the Mad King to slay them for the sake of the people.
Personally, I think all of the characters ended up where they needed to be, we just needed another season or two to really flesh it all out.
My least favorite character by a long way . Boring , cliched no humour whatsoever ... Badly written and acted in the TV series , slightly less anoying in the books .
i’m on my second rewatch and i also find her a bit insufferable this time around, mostly because she’s ostensibly very naive due to her upbringing but is always The Most Correct and i find it really grating.
I’m just on my second rewatch and struck by how obnoxious she is, and the arrogant expression she wears.
Ive said since it first came out that she was nuts! She is not a savior, but a destroyer. Maybe has good intentions, but is selfish and unwavering in what she thinks things should be.
Thanos thought he was right.
Dr. Doom thinks he is right
Hitler thought he was right.
Dany thinks she is right.
I'd compare her to those people you listed too, tbh. I think she was a villian
In the mcu thanos WAS right, he prevented the celestial apocalypse even if for a short time.
No
Yes. She's a cunt and I can't stand her stans.
I was never fond of her. Her mother of dragons line used to really piss me off during her lording it at the top of that damn pyramid while she chained those poor buggers in the basement. Never saw them, never trained with them, flew them, fed them herself.. nothing. Not a shred of mothering about her behaviour, Just dumped them and lived like a queen up high in the sky. Only reconnected with them once they broke free of their prison themself because she needed them to fight for her ffs :/
Yes! And I blame her for the one that got killed by the night king too. Why didn't she train them?
I HATE DANY.
sorry , I hate dany.
She is SO annoying oh my god. She’s on such a big power trip that it Pmo, and the double standards she shows is painful.
Idk how she’s so well liked. Maybe it’s just her visuals.
I liked her before she got onto her pedestal, I wish she stayed humble
Ugh I HATE HER TOO. Its her fault the dragons died. She didn't even protect them. Or train them. Or get them armour. From the first one to get hit with a spear in the fighting pit, she should've realized they were vulnerable. 4 times they got injured or killed and still she does nothing to protect her "children".
No like stop talking all this big game about your ‘babies’ JUST to use them as weapons and get them hurt in wars? I know damn well I wouldn’t send my kids into war if I had a choice.
Yes! She talks about her children and her people and freedom but everyone and everything she claimed to love, she took to war.
I just finished my 2nd rewatch and now I like season 8 way more and her ending is totally predictable. She has always been a spoiled little c*nt!! Can't stand her anymore since the moment she takes Mereen
It became quite apparent to me first (and only) time I watched season 6. And the writing was contrived to make it where Dani comes out on top easy. Twice!
Did...you skip the first 5 seasons?
I wouldn't say she is insufferable, but I do think it is interesting that so many people seemingly idolize her despite her clear unlikable qualities, and seemingly believe she is 'harshly judged' when her character flaws are pointed out.
Many try and claim female characters are 'too harshly judged', but it seems like in this case so many viewers gave her a 'free pass' to be fairly shitty and hypocritical and unfair and temperamental simply because of her gender (and the empathy someone in her position because of her gender created.)
And it seems clear those 'rose colored glasses' many have for her play into people trying to claim 'rushed' because they, up to The Bells, somehow only ever saw her as a good and just figure, somehow.
PS - That said, the real eye opener are those who seemingly truly believe she would make some amazing ruler over an entire continent she knows nothing about. Like, did you not see the dumpster fire that was Mereen? And she is a terrible politician.
Jon too. His own death is meant to show his failings as a ruler. Theyre set up initially before they have an actual bid for the throne why they wouldn't make good rulers either alone or together. The entire point is someone like bran is needed.
Dany was a child sold into marriage slavery and surrounded by people with little to no education about statecraft. Or the few who did end up by her side with knowledge of Westeros politics and culture - Jorah and Tyrion and Barristan were compromised by way by either the dazzle of love or the crush of exile.Her pathetic 'bend the knee' and petulant power over pompery in Westeros showed a shallow young woman totally out of her depth. D&D had no strength in charactwr development at that level and it showed. No surpise she was just "Me. Burn. Burn them all." It's who she always was.
Don’t worry, on the 17th rewatch she will be great again
As a first time watcher and never have read the books-er(soon), but long time knower of the outage the ending of the show caused, show runners started to make Dany insuffeeable season 3, and from my understanding its because they acknowledged that they had nerfed EVERY other character that could take her own.
From the Stark children being wargs(which doesn’t get much attention aside from that being Brans intro to TER stuff), to show Jon apparently being the Dweeb of the North compared to his book self, downright to Dany acting “out of character” so she’d sometimes fail to further advance the plot.
They made her character too good and every other character it would make sense to be her rival, isn’t.
Plus Jon Snow being the secret “male heir” gave the runners another reason to kill her off. It wasn’t necessary to have an overpowered war monger who they had ruined the potential of in previous season. especially not when they can use the excuse of the issues of in-world discrimination that wouldn’t have “allowed” a foreigner with traitors blood who was a woman on the throne over a man.
Her first conversation with Jon was a way for her to ensure her hold on the biggest kingdom. In Daenerys’s mind, her father being overthrown was treason, and all that came after was illegitimate. The fealty that Torrhen Stark pledged was supposed to last forever.
If you ever want to know how Daenerys feels, just imagine how she would be received if she were a man. It would be similar to how her brother was treated, the only difference being she has the power to realize her demands. Her being female causes people to underestimate her, and she uses that to her advantage in the beginning. In the end, however, it wasn’t about her being female. It was about her not understanding what other people want.
Naive is the word you’re looking for. Not “very very dumb.” Stubborn is another good way to describe her because she had a chance to negotiate with Sansa about the North being an independent kingdom similar to the way she discussed with Yara about the Iron Islands, but she chose not to because she didn’t appreciate the way she was received in the North. Still, if she gave independence to every kingdom, then who would she be ruling over?
She’s a complex character, and it’s challenging to balance all the social issues her character can face. I think the creators did a good job. The most important part to me was that she was honest. Honesty doesn’t get you anywhere in this world—chalk another one up to her naivety.
Dany deserved to rule as Queen. She was truly kind and loving. Until they ruined her. If only she had the dragons kill everyone including her lover Jon. Now that would be a great ending.
just finished my first watch of the show. i couldn’t stand her. she genuinely thought she was an amazing queen and she was horrible from the beginning. she always thought she knew better than others and her entitlement grew more insufferable season by season.
i thought her downfall in season 8 was inevitable, based on her being a targaryen, but it was very rushed. it seemed like she went from evil tendencies to straight evil, when in previous seasons her emotional development was more of a slow burn (even when she did something bad).
IMO it would have been much better if they took the additional seasons that HBO gave them. Of course it was jarring. Her decent to madness was too fast
Yes. She didn't feel like much of a protagonist to me. In my opinion she is more of a vindictive, arrogant tyrant-to-be.
she’s the victim of her own hype. both book and show dany were on the run since childhood. she’s scared. basically alone save for a cruel, bitter and jaded brother and people that used them.
she’s sold off to a warlord and while not totally respected by the warrior caste, now has slaves to do her bidding and jorah starting her khaleesi hype.
she’s basically told “congratulations you’re gonna give birth to genghis khan jesus” and then discovers she’s fireproof and has 3 dragons, the same number and types of creatures her ancestors took over a continent with.
she then begins killing anyone she disagrees with and has a essentially an entire city’s population calling her “mother” and hailing her as the messiah.
of course she’s insufferable, her ego grew larger than the entire continent of essos
She is supposed to be 14. So you have 21 yr old saying things a 14 year would say, and acting like
It’s almost as if he took influence from some of the real world political groups we’ve dealt with throughout modern politics
I actually skipped most of her scenes after like s4, I think, bc I found her to be unbearable. The entitlement and righteousness was so ridiculous that I just didn't want to waste my time with her scenes.
By doing that, I found that most of the bad writing people complain about in season 5-7 relate mostly to her, so by skipping her scenes, I was largely saved from the bad writing and didn't notice a considerable difference until it got really, really obvious.
That also means I was mostly happy with the ending. I think if the show had ended with her on the throne I would have been massively disappointed.
I know this makes me a bit of an outlier in the general fandom and might seem a bit "oh lookn at me I'm so different" but idk....just how I perceived the characters.
For me, it's that she doesn't even consider that Westeros my be justified in resisting her. The people that are younger than middle aged aren't beholden to her. The ones that are middle aged or older mostly have reason to be weary of Targaeryens. If she was going to dismiss those justifications, she should've just came in heavy, wipe the board clean then softened her stance after.
The US hasn't even existed for 400 years 😭
What about her flying out to the North and saving Jon Snow?
Yea and got one of the dragons killed cus she never trained them and even they were a means to an end for her tyranny
Never liked her and you can sum up why with the quarth scene with the spice trader where she gets pissy when he won't give her what she wants ON A PROMISE
*A promise followed by a threat. That girl is funny!
Total brat. My (now) least favorite character upon my 6th watch.
Killing Varys is when I got sick of all of it for good. The writing spiraled out of control.
Still yet, they could have salvaged it all. Nope. The breaker of chains french fries thousands of innocents. The final eye roll was complete.
After rewatching, the mereen arc made it clear to me that Dany was only good at conquering. Tyrion came in and tried to fix the situation, at this point we know he’ll find a solution eventually. However after one single failure dany goes on a rampage and begins a killing spree. Is this supposed to be the person who saves Westeros from tyranny?
It got bad. Way too many 180 degree character shifts.
Who else
Sansa. She was publicly challenging kings every 10 minutes in the end.
She’s muh queen
Go back and watch the bathtub scene. Then you can forgive some of her more annoying traits 😂
Yea I skip dany and jon storylines
Since my first watch i hadn’t instinctively liked her that much though i rooted for her most of the time until she went to westeros. If you remember we (and Dany) disliked Viserys because he felt too entitled “the dragon”. But then she saw herself as the “mother of dragons” and started gradually becoming as insufferable as Viserys with the important distinction of being naturally smarter than him so it was more subtle & insidious. Of course by the time the Storylines converge you have the actual Show decline + the build up of her increasing entitlement. Btw calling her smarter than Viserys doesn’t mean she was that smart, the guy was a complete idiot, she on the other hand was decent and had her very smart moments (with the owner of the unsullied) or dothraki in S6, but politically she was extremely idealistic and dictatorial though preaching devotion. A problem I dont have with Margaery for example as she was a realist and we KNEW she was faking it and we loved her for it, and the rest follows from here
She's a queen, so obviously she sees the world differently. She wants to change the world, but she also craves power. She's not a politician, though she aspires to be one; she's a conqueror, though the character and the series often forget that. Daenerys's character is one of light and shadow, though the series sometimes flattens her, reducing much of her to "I'm just a good woman" and removing the authoritarian and sometimes capricious side (common in a young girl) found in the books.
There's also the factor that Daenerys has a somewhat distorted view of Westeros and how she'll be treated. She believes she'll be welcomed with open arms, which doesn't happen, leading her to constantly try to assert her authority as queen, which is a bit annoying, but understandable. Her plot revolves around ruling the Seven Kingdoms, so it's normal that she seeks any opportunity to gain more vassals.
What's strange is that anyone would actually be against a woman who could destroy them if they don't kneel. It's especially odd that the Northerners wouldn't kneel when they were the only people during the Conquest smart enough not to confront three dragons and a Targaryen army. But the last few seasons have made the characters a bit unbearable and very one-sided.
lol I can tell you're irritated because this post is full of things that are not true. Take this for example. She only has this kind of conversation with Jon and Randyll and Co while in Westeros. She realistically should have been having it a lot more, but the writers pretended like there were only a 7 people in the country towards the end.
What conversations did you want her to have with people that had kidnapped and were telling she had to stay in the Dosh Khallen for the rest of her life? What points was she supposed to make to win them over?
She doens't. One of the main problems in the cities she liberated before getting to Mereen is that she made no attempt to rule them. She expected the former slaves to be able to handle things on their own and that didn't go well
When did she get mad at Varys for allegedly serving the people? She got mad at him because he was trying to get Jon to fight her over the throne. He was actually to kill her first, but she never learned about that part.
Your post is full of bias, but these back to back highlight the problem perfectly. You crap on Dany for not listening to Jon but then think it's perfectly reasonable for Sansa to not to acknowledge Dany's authority.
Who is Jon to expect Dany to listen to him? She doens't know him. He didn't bring any evidence. He was asking a Queen to protect his people but refusing to swear fealty which is generally what is required to gain someone's protection.
This post is giving very shitlib vibes🤔, no I will not be explaining any further lol
'Shitlib' ?
Gee, I wonder why...
Why didn't she just negotiate with the slavers????
But seriously, the way the writers handled the slavery plotline seemed to be designed to appeal to people who think you can talk everything out. That tendency led some people to write the funniest articles when the show was airing.
https://slate.com/culture/2016/05/why-tyrion-s-negotiation-to-end-slavery-in-meereen-in-the-book-of-the-stranger-on-game-of-thrones-was-so-powerful.html
Exactly!