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Bronn quotes him perfectly “And you're a grub in fancy armor who's better at beating little girls than fighting”
He’s with Cersei and Joff, he doesn’t care how good Barristan is or accomplishments. Jamie and Barristan had respect for each other, Trant just wants a pay cheque and to use his slight above sword skills
Is the other guy Arys or Sandor? Arys acts like he cares about honor but he also let Joffrey command him to hit Sansa, which makes me think he’s all talk. Sandor is the sole kingsguard who refuses to hit her, but he’s also staunchly against chivalry and knighthood which makes me think you aren’t talking about him.
Ah ok I haven’t read AFFC in a bit so I forgot that. Still doesn’t Tyrion lay into that kingsguard in ACOK as soon as he gets back because they’re not supposed to do anything the king tells them?
This one mistake is the reason all of her kids died young. If she fled when Ned told her to, she would’ve had her children. But she cared more about power than them.
Yeah, this character trait gets muddled in the show, because they try to push the Cersei loved her children thing a lot. In the books it seems pretty clear her children are just tools for her own power.
she loves her children in the sense that they are extensions of herself. another example of her insane narcissism, like how she loves Jamie because they're twins and its like loving herself more.
She loved him, but he was weak. Joffrey was cruel, Myrcella was beautiful... both traits she considered admirable. Weakness was not. Watching Tommen become completely immersed in Margaery and then for the Faith of the Seven really made her resent him. She also had accepted the prophecy - the one about all her children dying - before Tommen died. So I think when he died it was kind or a relief for her, as twisted as that is. Just my take on it!
Gods you sound like Cersei talking about Tommen being weak. He wasn't weak just because he was kind... he loved Margary. He'd never had anyone in his life OTHER than Cersei, so of course he fell hard when a gorgeous, intelligent woman came into his life. He was just young and had he lived longer, he would've likely come into his own and become a good strong king.
She sure acted that way, didn't she? The bitch had the gall to say Tommen betrayed her, though the reason he killed himself was because SHE killed his wife.
It's clear enough in the show too if you're open to that idea. You never see anything like a fond smile or a playful moment. A hug, ruffling the hair, tucking them in. Bragging on them. She doesn't have a maternal bone in her body.
let's support you had her and her children in chains. it's just you and them and you all no for a fact that no help is coming. you have the power of life and death over Cersei and her children. under those circumstances, if you asked her to choose between her children's lives and her keeping her power, I feel pretty strongly she would choose her children every time.
this was a mistake in my opinion and she should've fled - maybe to essos but at least to casterly rock. but she absolutely didn't think she was choosing between her children and her position. she thought she could keep both. she just also happens to be pretty bad at political strategy.
Eh I disagree. She cared nothing about her younger son killing himself due to him losing the wife he loved. She caused the death of all of her children.
Its the one character trait of hers that nobody, not even the people who hate her, ever question. She absolutely loves her children. Where do you see her not caring about Tommen’s death? She was incredibly hurt by it. That’s why she lashes out the way she does when Jaime questions her.
Let's explore this: Does Cersei love her children? Yes. Is all love a healthy form of love? Absolutely not, no. So it's not really "enough" that she just loves him-- love doesn't negate abuse or manipulation. Ask any kid with an abusive parent. Cersei loves her children the only way she knows how to love-- she loves them as an extension of herself, her control, her will, her power. She loves them because they are all her, and aspects of "her" that she can manipulate and control to position herself into better power. Joffrey is "what if I was king with a dick like I always wanted" and she lives that fantasy out through him. Myrcella is "what if I have a loving mother who spoiled me" and she lives that fantasy out through her. Tommen is so young, he's largely ignored. In the books, she largely ignores both Tommen and Myrcella in favor of Joffrey, because he will be king, and he centers her around the most power. This is actually how Tommen and Myrcella manage to be somewhat decent-- her lack of influence.
She only loved Joffrey so much because he was destined to be king, to secure her power. When Tommen takes over, Cersei wants to control him the same, and when Tommen almost sides with Margaery on a number of occassions... Cersei is furious. Cersei forces his compliance, and then he kills himself. Yes, she has Tommen buried with his brother and Grandfather, but she also says "He betrayed us" directly to Jaime when he's trying to talk about Tommen's death with her. She shuts it down, dismisses it. "He betrayed us."
This is ultimately how Cersei functions. She loves you while you're something she can control, including her children. If Tommen had chosen house Marg over her, she would've called him a traitor and done something horrible to punish him. If Myrcella came home and declared her love for Trystane and Cersei didn't approve, she would kill Trystane for sure. If any of her children tried to directly rebel against her and strip her of her power, much like Tommen came close to doing, she would turn against them, much like how her words regarding Tommen after his death were very curt and cold. Compare Cersei's mourning for Joffrey or Myrcella to that of Tommen. There's a HUGE difference, and it's largely because Tommen was the "traitor".
She wouldn't have chosen her children over power. She literally doesn't. That's why they're dead. She might "love" her children, but she is, by all accounts, an awful mother and person.
LOL... what?? She blamed TOMMEN for killing himself... not at all accepting ANY responsibility or even acknowledging that it was because SHE MURDERED HIS WIFE. She was JEALOUS of him loving Margery & because Margery was younger & more beautiful than she was. And when Jaime mentioned Tommen, Cersei said that he, TOMMEN, betrayed her! That's not something a grieving mother says. That's something a sociopath who sees their children as extensions of themselves & who only cares about what their kids can do for them says. It's not love & it's damn sure not maternal.
That’s not really true. It’s even mentioned in the books (by Catlyn, I think) that Robert would have had her and her children chased down and slain. Catlyn admits to herself that she might have done the same to save her own children (I think she was being a bit generous here). Presumably, had she fled, Robert would not have died.
Remember, Ned found out when Rob was hunting and he didn’t tell him on his death bed. He already told Ned that he will be king until his son comes of age. Ned wasn’t killing them and would’ve let them run. I’m sure her dad wouldn’t be excited about it but he was kind of a coward and would’ve submitted to the decision by Ned because he knows he wouldn’t have won the war if it came to that with a living Ned.
You’re right — Cersei’s plans are already in play. But she couldn’t have truly known that Robert would die by the boar , that he would make it back to the castle alive, or that Ned would take pity and not tell him on his death bed. So it was still a gamble she made. But yes, you’re right — considering Robert did die, she would have done better to run and (may) have been safe that way. Although I’m not sure Stannis would have been any kinder towards them in their exile.
And he was pushing to murder Dany, half a world away, poor as dirt, and how many years after exile? He was emotional about the Targaryens on account of Lyana, but also because he still considered her a threat to his throne. He already hates Cersei and commits domestic abuse against her. Her crime is not only horrifying in its own, it would also humiliate him in front of the realm. It’s not just anger, it’s pride. I assume adultry by the queen is punishable by death even without the twincest. He already dislikes Joffrey, and now would consider him an abomination. There’s a chance the exiled Cersei and sons would still have support in the realm. The Lannister family, as a whole, has wealth enough to pay for an army to defend Joffrey’s claim. It would be too risky to allow them to live, and Robert’s emotions are not that short lived in truth.
Yup definitely goners. Probably Tommen too, being a lad. Mycella might stand a chance, sweet thing.
Like most humans, the easiest place for Robert to decide to be a good and repentant, reasonable person is on his death bed. It’s conjecture but I kind of doubt he would have come around had he not been at death’s door.
Of course it wouldn’t be a good look, but he was hell bent on killing Dany, also a child, and the realm would likely consider the children abominations anyway (one soldier calls Joffrey an abomination on the account of his parentage early on in the books). During Robert’s rebellion, Rhaegar’s infant child was murdered (not by Robert’s hand, but by forces fighting in his name). Robert also got a 14 or 15 year old child pregnant when he was in his mid-30’s and beats his wife, so one might say he doesn’t represent the pinnacle of morality.
Then again. Aemon Targaryen has lived on the wall for an age unmolested by Robert. Then again, again — Aemon was not an insult to Robert, and at Aemon’s advanced and frail age, less a threat than a strong and handsome young Tommen would be.
So, maybe. It’s all maybe. It is conjecture, but conjecture best made by actual contextual clues.
Ned tells Cersei that, yes. I can’t remember if he says so outright or just implied it in the books. Catlyn, at some point, comes to the same conclusion on her own after Ned was killed and she learns of the incest. It was in one of her chapters where readers have access to her thoughts.
I edited my response cause I understood your question really late. I thought you were saying that it wasn’t true because Ned had said it instead of Robert (which wouldn’t have any bearing on what Robert would have done had he lived and learned about her). But yes, Ned said it, also Catlyn thought the same independently of Ned, which is revealed later, and I believe a fair number of others would have expected the same, including Varys, considering King’s Landing culture and Robert’s own history.
Obviously, if I need to clarify, it’s all speculation (by Ned, Catlyn, and myself)
If Ned told him to stand down then he would’ve followed that order. He didn’t send to write to Stannis until he realized that the queen wasn’t going to flee
Smallfolk would riot if Barristan was accused of being a traitor.
Ned stark AND Barristan the bold being accused of treason? No way anyone would believe two men known for their honor and sense of duty would end up being traitors.
The smallfolk don't give a fuck about politics, lmao.
They only care about one thing: being fed.
That's why they loved the Mad King, as the treasury was full during his reign (credit to Tywin of course), and that's why they started loving Joffrey after Margaery's PR work with the crates full of grain from House Tyrell.
Everyone who has replies has said the same thing, and yet everyone forgets that Barristan isn’t a politician, he’s a local hero and legend to the smallfolk and the other noble houses. Having barristan the bold at your side further gives you legitimacy. Having him at your side is like a Targaryen having the sword blackfyre.
I can’t recall if it was Tywin or Tyrion, but one of them actually brings up how if barristan goes over to renly or Stannis, he’ll draw support for that candidate, because people respect and love barristan.
People tend to forget that barristan isn’t someone who’s just a good fighter. He himself is a symbol.
Cool. That "symbol" was publicly humiliated and dismissed from the Kingsguard, which is a breach of the Kingsguard's oath for life, and nobody cared. They all cheered when Joffrey took Ned Stark's head.
correction, no nobleman gave two shits.
That is, until he pulled out his sword and everyone in the room shat bricks when they though the painter who uses only red was about to draw a painting. But that's more presece and reputation than being a symbol.
The townsfolk are literally rioting against the Iron Throne even before Clash of Kings start. They are already conflicted on Eddard, as we see in I think it's Arya's PoV by the end of A Game of Thrones (and not everybody cheered when Ned died. Some people were booing and causing a ruckus, because Joffrey was being unnecesaryly cruel and sadistic). Barristan being dismised probably didn't sit right with them.
They know a war is coming. And then, that Stannis is weeks or even days away from the capital. They are scared, and they don't have any faith in the royal court. Not just in their competence, but their intentions and methods. Having Barristan, various characters agree, would have bought a lot of goodwill with the smallfolk. They would have felt safer, and also would believe in their rulers more.
The revolt which ends with Lolis being raped, a kingsguard being killed and the high septon being torn appart by angry mob, with Joffrey and Sansa almost joining in the casualties is not caused just by the removal or Sir Barristan. But it sure as hell didn't help. It's one of the things that piled up on the early months of Joffrey's rule.
You mean the same smallfolk who joyously celebrated Joffrey the following season? That smallfolk?
The smallfolk only care about food. If you read the book, you know the smallfolk dislike King Robert because the crown is indebted to House Lannister, the Faith, and the Iron Bank, less money = less food.
The moment Margaery brings food to King's Landing in Joffrey's name, the smallfolk suddenly love House Baratheon.
... Yes, the Tyrells are masters of positive PR stunts, I don't know why this inmediately disproves any other statement.
To begin with, because the first thing that changed the tune of the smallfolk was valiant knight Loras Tyrell, also beloved by the smallfolk, charging full of fury against Stannis' forces at the end of the battle of Blackwater Bay. Loras is similar to Barristan Selmy, in the sense that he's seen as kind and noble. If he follows you and pledges his sword for you, it must be because you are kind and noble.
Yes, obviously the common people are only interested in staying fed, clothed and under a roof. They don't care about legitimacy (although they do care about sins that might undermine someone's legitimacy, like say being born of incest, that was something that the Targaryens had trouble getting by and only did so thanks to strong support and tradition, and people still believed it bred bad kings. The people of Westeros are superstitious, and tend to isolate those that might anger the gods, as to not share in their punishment). Things like who has a stronger claim to the trone after the rebellion against The Mad King, are of no importance to them. But, an evil, egotistical tyrant will without a doubt put in jeopardy that food, clothes and roof. So they do not want terrible, evil tyrants. They want good kings that will bring abundance, and share that abundance with them
How will they know however who a king really is? Well, you see the people that support him. Northerners have a reputation for having a stick up their asses about honor, law and tradition, so if a northerner high lord supports you, you are probably a lawful and conservative king. If Barristan is your head of the Kingsguard, you are probably an honorable king that favors action. If Loras is at your side you are probably kind, and you worry about the needs of your people. On the other hand, if you favor The Kingslayer, you might be an ambitious ruthless bastard yourself, capable of anything to fulfill your desires. It's obviously all bullshit, but I mean. We do that today. It's why it matters if an actor has had a recent scandal that might present them as biggoted. Oh, Henry Cavil has left the show The Witcher? Well, he is all about respecting the source material and fan expectations, so I'm sure that means that the direction of the project has turned away from that. People assign to you the values, priorities and deeds of the public faces that execute your projects. Public campaigns can alter the perception of the people, and therefore change the values the assign to your supporters and detractors, but that percieved relationship stays.
Of course the people were happy when Joffrey got engaged with Margaery. The crown has gotten us help! Sir Loras saved us from the terrible Stannis! Margaery feeds us and listens to us! And she said she's doing this by order and lead of the king! The Tyrells are great allies not just because of their wealth, but because they are universally well liked because they use that power to put up all those publicity stunts. When the crown joined with them, they also got to share in that fame. Just like the would with Barristan.
They didn't start singing the praises of Joffrey because Margaery fed them, so now they are happy. They started doing it because in their minds, the fact that the Tyrells were supporting him gave them hope and faith that he will continue to do so. That his egotistical and psycho ass is not going to destroy their lives.
Considering Stannis almost took king’s landing with what he DID have, having Barristan along would be a huge benefit.
Aside from being the best swordsman in Westeros at the time, he’d also have a lot of tactical and strategic advice to offer. Though my main concern is how Barristan would feel about Melisandre and Stannis killing Renly.
And of course, it means dany would likely die as barristan wouldn’t be there to save her from the manticore.
One of the weaknesses of the worldbuilding I think. In Westeros, you are either a high noble or ridiculously poor with no agency because all your focus is on getting food for tomorrow.
Everyone between that, the lower nobility and the more powerful commoners gets ignored completely. And the church is also a complete afterthought.
The lower nobility do exist, they just aren't discussed or shown very often - only briefly in AFFC and ADWD when George started focusing on world building more. Stannis has a lot of landed knights and minor nobles in his employ, and Wyman Manderly comments on the number of petty lords who are bannered directly to him.
Huh? Weren’t the small folk throwing literal shit at Ned at his execution? They were portrayed as deranged shitheads who just believe whatever whoever’s king tells them.
"The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace."
- Jorah
Barristan is a perfect example of lots of Americans in the federal government that are honorable people but don’t think too much about right and wrong but the chain of command. They are soldiers not leaders.
I’m not criticizing just pointing out there are hundreds of thousands of people in the federal government that disagree with the administration but follow orders and stick around because “there’s nothing they can do about it anyway”.
It’s just sad to see so little moral backbone every day. Easy to see how Nazi Germany happened.
Power is power. Obviously little finger and the police, forget the name, was on her side. She knew that before the audience did. She had all the allies to be this confident.
Plus Ned pissed her off. If Ned played the game and didn’t threaten her having him on the council would’ve kept the North at bay long enough to transfer the power.
This is to the exact problem posed by Varys “riddle” to Tyrion. Barristan can kill who he wants in the room, but for what purpose? Does he have an idea of who should be king? How does he enforce it? Ned Stark is more aware of the process, but no one is respecting his power because he hasn’t bought the gold cloaks, and perhaps their honor isn’t enough to stand against the injustice that is happening.
No. He litteraly went to her because Cersei dismissed him. Working for the Lannisters/Baratheon for years after the murder of Elia and her children didn't seem to puzzle him too much. What a bum.
He might’ve stood a chance at joining Ned and openly challenging Cersei if Renly, Stannis or the group of knights Beric led to hunt the Mountain were still in the capital, but almost all possible allies were gone.
Someone in power ignoring or failing to respect the law and rules for their own benefit, and becoming threatening toward those who oppose them? That’s definitely fiction.
I mean, its literally shown in the show when Robert is giving his final wishes where Robert says one thing, and Ned writes a completely different thing. I mean what kind of horrible person does that to his supposed best friend. Truly a shame he was given a clean death.
It's not "completely different". He replaces Joffrey's regent with "rightful heir"s regent which is kind of the same thing because the other candidates do not require a regent.
I tend to agree that it wouldn’t have changed Cersei’s behavior BUT it is stated later in book that Barristan was a hero to the small folk; he was also well respected by pretty much every high born family in the realm. I think to slay him could have been very bad for their campaign by lending further credence to rumors of her villainy and turning more houses against them.
Let’s just say it’s fodder for rumors which notoriously go every which way in kings landing; Ned has nothing to lose from negative rumors (anymore), but the Lannisters have everything to lose. What’s more the Starks aren’t a threat to the Iron Throne; they just want the North, and any negative reputation inherited second hand by whichever new King they ally with will be much weaker and less relevant.
Funnily enough. Because of the dance of dragons. The greens were able to make Aegon king despite the fact that Viserys affirmed Rhaenyra as queen and the great houses swore to that oath. If you can go back on your word from that then tearing up a piece of paper is nothing relatively speaking. I'm simply saying that there was precedent for going against the King's words after death.
He affirmed Rhaenyra, yes, but that was before an heir who would by established custom come before her was born, and after that Viserys pussied out and never clarified whether he wanted to stand by his initial decision or follow custom as expected. That King in particular was wishy washy, and technically Ned did finagle the truth of the King's words by changing Robert's "my son Joffrey" to "my rightful heir", but no one knew that except Ned (and maybe Cersei suspected it). So slightly different situations, I think.
I mean, he swore to protect the king and the royal family. If he didn’t stop Aerys from burning people alive, why would anyone think he’d act against Cersei for tearing up a dead king’s will?
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I mean what else is he supposed to do here? It's not like he can just cut through all of them like he's carving a cake
I think he probably could, at least a good number of em.
Top of your class weren't ya
Sharp as a cue ball this one.
Barristan was an interior decorator? His apartment looked like shit
Yeah, he only painted with one color, according to Ser Jaime
is he stupid?
😂
Nearly drowned in 3 inches of water, the penguin exhibit.
Well, you know how it is... some people are so far behind they think they're leading.
OOOH!
The town thinker over here
I’m betting at least 5
r/whoooosh
oh man
I could go for some cake right now.
If he is more firm in his conviction, he could probably get the rest of the kingsguard or others to stand with him.
You think Boros Blount, Meryn Trant and Mandon Moore would go ageinst Cersei for Barristan's sake?
Ha Meryn Trent.. biggest accomplishment taking down someone with a wooden sword
That's the one, yeah.
You think he would stand with Barristan ageinst Cersei/Joff?
Bronn quotes him perfectly “And you're a grub in fancy armor who's better at beating little girls than fighting”
He’s with Cersei and Joff, he doesn’t care how good Barristan is or accomplishments. Jamie and Barristan had respect for each other, Trant just wants a pay cheque and to use his slight above sword skills
Sander Clegane too, this really was the worst and most corruptable KG in all the lore
Sandor only got put on as Barristan's replacement, so he wasn't one in that scene.
Yeah, he was Joff's bodyguard wasn't he?
Yes. "Sworn Shield".
Tbh, I don't know who the first and last guy you mentioned are. I just watched the show once.
Meryn seems like the kind of guy who would try to pick the winning side.
Okay, I guess I'm kinda bringing book canon to a show sub here.
The kingsguard was very corrupt. Only Barristan and one other guy on it actually cared about honour and such ideals.
yeah but corrupt people also care about winning and living.
Gotta peer pressure people
Which is exactly why they would never side with Ned regardless of Barristan.
Yeah idk enough about the psychological states of everyone in that room.
Is the other guy Arys or Sandor? Arys acts like he cares about honor but he also let Joffrey command him to hit Sansa, which makes me think he’s all talk. Sandor is the sole kingsguard who refuses to hit her, but he’s also staunchly against chivalry and knighthood which makes me think you aren’t talking about him.
In the Westerosi understanding of it, his honor is what compels him to obey Joffrey when he orders him to hit Sansa.
We know he cares about it from his internal monologue when he becomes a POV character.
Ah ok I haven’t read AFFC in a bit so I forgot that. Still doesn’t Tyrion lay into that kingsguard in ACOK as soon as he gets back because they’re not supposed to do anything the king tells them?
This one mistake is the reason all of her kids died young. If she fled when Ned told her to, she would’ve had her children. But she cared more about power than them.
Yeah, this character trait gets muddled in the show, because they try to push the Cersei loved her children thing a lot. In the books it seems pretty clear her children are just tools for her own power.
she loves her children in the sense that they are extensions of herself. another example of her insane narcissism, like how she loves Jamie because they're twins and its like loving herself more.
Well said
From what I understand, she loved Joffrey and Mycella, but didn't care much for Tommen?
She loved him, but he was weak. Joffrey was cruel, Myrcella was beautiful... both traits she considered admirable. Weakness was not. Watching Tommen become completely immersed in Margaery and then for the Faith of the Seven really made her resent him. She also had accepted the prophecy - the one about all her children dying - before Tommen died. So I think when he died it was kind or a relief for her, as twisted as that is. Just my take on it!
Oh, I'm going with book Cersai.
Gods you sound like Cersei talking about Tommen being weak. He wasn't weak just because he was kind... he loved Margary. He'd never had anyone in his life OTHER than Cersei, so of course he fell hard when a gorgeous, intelligent woman came into his life. He was just young and had he lived longer, he would've likely come into his own and become a good strong king.
She sure acted that way, didn't she? The bitch had the gall to say Tommen betrayed her, though the reason he killed himself was because SHE killed his wife.
Meh, this is why I'm using the book version more.
It's clear enough in the show too if you're open to that idea. You never see anything like a fond smile or a playful moment. A hug, ruffling the hair, tucking them in. Bragging on them. She doesn't have a maternal bone in her body.
let's support you had her and her children in chains. it's just you and them and you all no for a fact that no help is coming. you have the power of life and death over Cersei and her children. under those circumstances, if you asked her to choose between her children's lives and her keeping her power, I feel pretty strongly she would choose her children every time.
this was a mistake in my opinion and she should've fled - maybe to essos but at least to casterly rock. but she absolutely didn't think she was choosing between her children and her position. she thought she could keep both. she just also happens to be pretty bad at political strategy.
Eh I disagree. She cared nothing about her younger son killing himself due to him losing the wife he loved. She caused the death of all of her children.
I think Joffrey was a lost cause regardless.
Its the one character trait of hers that nobody, not even the people who hate her, ever question. She absolutely loves her children. Where do you see her not caring about Tommen’s death? She was incredibly hurt by it. That’s why she lashes out the way she does when Jaime questions her.
Let's explore this: Does Cersei love her children? Yes. Is all love a healthy form of love? Absolutely not, no. So it's not really "enough" that she just loves him-- love doesn't negate abuse or manipulation. Ask any kid with an abusive parent. Cersei loves her children the only way she knows how to love-- she loves them as an extension of herself, her control, her will, her power. She loves them because they are all her, and aspects of "her" that she can manipulate and control to position herself into better power. Joffrey is "what if I was king with a dick like I always wanted" and she lives that fantasy out through him. Myrcella is "what if I have a loving mother who spoiled me" and she lives that fantasy out through her. Tommen is so young, he's largely ignored. In the books, she largely ignores both Tommen and Myrcella in favor of Joffrey, because he will be king, and he centers her around the most power. This is actually how Tommen and Myrcella manage to be somewhat decent-- her lack of influence.
She only loved Joffrey so much because he was destined to be king, to secure her power. When Tommen takes over, Cersei wants to control him the same, and when Tommen almost sides with Margaery on a number of occassions... Cersei is furious. Cersei forces his compliance, and then he kills himself. Yes, she has Tommen buried with his brother and Grandfather, but she also says "He betrayed us" directly to Jaime when he's trying to talk about Tommen's death with her. She shuts it down, dismisses it. "He betrayed us."
This is ultimately how Cersei functions. She loves you while you're something she can control, including her children. If Tommen had chosen house Marg over her, she would've called him a traitor and done something horrible to punish him. If Myrcella came home and declared her love for Trystane and Cersei didn't approve, she would kill Trystane for sure. If any of her children tried to directly rebel against her and strip her of her power, much like Tommen came close to doing, she would turn against them, much like how her words regarding Tommen after his death were very curt and cold. Compare Cersei's mourning for Joffrey or Myrcella to that of Tommen. There's a HUGE difference, and it's largely because Tommen was the "traitor".
She wouldn't have chosen her children over power. She literally doesn't. That's why they're dead. She might "love" her children, but she is, by all accounts, an awful mother and person.
Excellent analysis & very well put! 👍
She literally told her hand to throw his ashes with his wife and high sparrow and not with his grandfathers and his brother.
… The exact words were “he should be with his brother and grandfather. Burn him and bury his ashes where the sept used to be”
LOL... what?? She blamed TOMMEN for killing himself... not at all accepting ANY responsibility or even acknowledging that it was because SHE MURDERED HIS WIFE. She was JEALOUS of him loving Margery & because Margery was younger & more beautiful than she was. And when Jaime mentioned Tommen, Cersei said that he, TOMMEN, betrayed her! That's not something a grieving mother says. That's something a sociopath who sees their children as extensions of themselves & who only cares about what their kids can do for them says. It's not love & it's damn sure not maternal.
And she was right.
bruh
her and all her children died
As I already said, she made many mistakes, but that was not one of them.
Dude, her CHILDREN DIED... so how was she right that she could have BOTH her kids AND her power? You sound delusional saying she was right...
How was she right... all her children died, even her unborn baby...???
That’s not really true. It’s even mentioned in the books (by Catlyn, I think) that Robert would have had her and her children chased down and slain. Catlyn admits to herself that she might have done the same to save her own children (I think she was being a bit generous here). Presumably, had she fled, Robert would not have died.
Remember, Ned found out when Rob was hunting and he didn’t tell him on his death bed. He already told Ned that he will be king until his son comes of age. Ned wasn’t killing them and would’ve let them run. I’m sure her dad wouldn’t be excited about it but he was kind of a coward and would’ve submitted to the decision by Ned because he knows he wouldn’t have won the war if it came to that with a living Ned.
You’re right — Cersei’s plans are already in play. But she couldn’t have truly known that Robert would die by the boar , that he would make it back to the castle alive, or that Ned would take pity and not tell him on his death bed. So it was still a gamble she made. But yes, you’re right — considering Robert did die, she would have done better to run and (may) have been safe that way. Although I’m not sure Stannis would have been any kinder towards them in their exile.
Everyone thinks thats what Robert would do, but they forget that he's quick to anger, but after a cooling off period, he's able to listen to reason.
It reminds me when Renly was telling Ned to not go back home, he said something like, "You know how he is, give him a day or two."
And he was pushing to murder Dany, half a world away, poor as dirt, and how many years after exile? He was emotional about the Targaryens on account of Lyana, but also because he still considered her a threat to his throne. He already hates Cersei and commits domestic abuse against her. Her crime is not only horrifying in its own, it would also humiliate him in front of the realm. It’s not just anger, it’s pride. I assume adultry by the queen is punishable by death even without the twincest. He already dislikes Joffrey, and now would consider him an abomination. There’s a chance the exiled Cersei and sons would still have support in the realm. The Lannister family, as a whole, has wealth enough to pay for an army to defend Joffrey’s claim. It would be too risky to allow them to live, and Robert’s emotions are not that short lived in truth.
Cersai, Joffrey and Jaimie, would be goners. I think that he would listen to reason when it came to Tommen and Mycella.
Even with Daenerys, he regrets it on his death bed, and tells Ned that he was right.
Yup definitely goners. Probably Tommen too, being a lad. Mycella might stand a chance, sweet thing.
Like most humans, the easiest place for Robert to decide to be a good and repentant, reasonable person is on his death bed. It’s conjecture but I kind of doubt he would have come around had he not been at death’s door.
You don't think it wouldn't be a good look for the king to have a seven and eight year old executed???
Or maybe he could have been calmed down, and convinced that in due time, Tommen can be sent to the watch, and Mycella to the Silent Sisters?
Of course it wouldn’t be a good look, but he was hell bent on killing Dany, also a child, and the realm would likely consider the children abominations anyway (one soldier calls Joffrey an abomination on the account of his parentage early on in the books). During Robert’s rebellion, Rhaegar’s infant child was murdered (not by Robert’s hand, but by forces fighting in his name). Robert also got a 14 or 15 year old child pregnant when he was in his mid-30’s and beats his wife, so one might say he doesn’t represent the pinnacle of morality.
Then again. Aemon Targaryen has lived on the wall for an age unmolested by Robert. Then again, again — Aemon was not an insult to Robert, and at Aemon’s advanced and frail age, less a threat than a strong and handsome young Tommen would be.
So, maybe. It’s all maybe. It is conjecture, but conjecture best made by actual contextual clues.
And that's my point, the people of the realm are disgusted over Rhaegar's children being murdered.
Also, what's Robert going to do? Have Tommen and Mycella beheaded for the people of King's Landing to see?
A public execution of children would make him infamous.
Okay ! * throws hands up *
Ned is the one who told Cersei that Rob would kill her & the kids.
Ned tells Cersei that, yes. I can’t remember if he says so outright or just implied it in the books. Catlyn, at some point, comes to the same conclusion on her own after Ned was killed and she learns of the incest. It was in one of her chapters where readers have access to her thoughts.
Because you had said "It's even mentioned in the books (BY CATLYN, I THINK...". I was simply responding to the "by Catlyn" part, saying it was Ned.
I edited my response cause I understood your question really late. I thought you were saying that it wasn’t true because Ned had said it instead of Robert (which wouldn’t have any bearing on what Robert would have done had he lived and learned about her). But yes, Ned said it, also Catlyn thought the same independently of Ned, which is revealed later, and I believe a fair number of others would have expected the same, including Varys, considering King’s Landing culture and Robert’s own history.
Obviously, if I need to clarify, it’s all speculation (by Ned, Catlyn, and myself)
She made many mistakes, but that was not one of them. Standing up and fighting gave her better odds than running and hiding ever could.
Ned wouldn’t kill innocent kids. He said this so many times. If he was the king then she was safe regardless.
Stannis would, and yet Ned sent a letter to Stannis.
If Ned told him to stand down then he would’ve followed that order. He didn’t send to write to Stannis until he realized that the queen wasn’t going to flee
Ned isn’t the king. Stannis would be, Stannis the infamously unbending rigid man who cut the fingers off a man who smuggled food to Stannis
Or maybe actually she wouldn't be able to execute Barristan as it would raise eyebrows, considering no man could ever question his loyalty?
Smallfolk would riot if Barristan was accused of being a traitor.
Ned stark AND Barristan the bold being accused of treason? No way anyone would believe two men known for their honor and sense of duty would end up being traitors.
The smallfolk don't give a fuck about politics, lmao.
They only care about one thing: being fed.
That's why they loved the Mad King, as the treasury was full during his reign (credit to Tywin of course), and that's why they started loving Joffrey after Margaery's PR work with the crates full of grain from House Tyrell.
Everyone who has replies has said the same thing, and yet everyone forgets that Barristan isn’t a politician, he’s a local hero and legend to the smallfolk and the other noble houses. Having barristan the bold at your side further gives you legitimacy. Having him at your side is like a Targaryen having the sword blackfyre.
I can’t recall if it was Tywin or Tyrion, but one of them actually brings up how if barristan goes over to renly or Stannis, he’ll draw support for that candidate, because people respect and love barristan.
People tend to forget that barristan isn’t someone who’s just a good fighter. He himself is a symbol.
If you can remember a time when you were starving, and you aren't now; you don't care nearly as much about symbols.
The poor don't really care which noble killed or fucked which.
Cool. That "symbol" was publicly humiliated and dismissed from the Kingsguard, which is a breach of the Kingsguard's oath for life, and nobody cared. They all cheered when Joffrey took Ned Stark's head.
correction, no nobleman gave two shits.
That is, until he pulled out his sword and everyone in the room shat bricks when they though the painter who uses only red was about to draw a painting. But that's more presece and reputation than being a symbol.
The townsfolk are literally rioting against the Iron Throne even before Clash of Kings start. They are already conflicted on Eddard, as we see in I think it's Arya's PoV by the end of A Game of Thrones (and not everybody cheered when Ned died. Some people were booing and causing a ruckus, because Joffrey was being unnecesaryly cruel and sadistic). Barristan being dismised probably didn't sit right with them.
They know a war is coming. And then, that Stannis is weeks or even days away from the capital. They are scared, and they don't have any faith in the royal court. Not just in their competence, but their intentions and methods. Having Barristan, various characters agree, would have bought a lot of goodwill with the smallfolk. They would have felt safer, and also would believe in their rulers more.
The revolt which ends with Lolis being raped, a kingsguard being killed and the high septon being torn appart by angry mob, with Joffrey and Sansa almost joining in the casualties is not caused just by the removal or Sir Barristan. But it sure as hell didn't help. It's one of the things that piled up on the early months of Joffrey's rule.
You mean the same smallfolk who joyously celebrated Joffrey the following season? That smallfolk?
The smallfolk only care about food. If you read the book, you know the smallfolk dislike King Robert because the crown is indebted to House Lannister, the Faith, and the Iron Bank, less money = less food.
The moment Margaery brings food to King's Landing in Joffrey's name, the smallfolk suddenly love House Baratheon.
... Yes, the Tyrells are masters of positive PR stunts, I don't know why this inmediately disproves any other statement.
To begin with, because the first thing that changed the tune of the smallfolk was valiant knight Loras Tyrell, also beloved by the smallfolk, charging full of fury against Stannis' forces at the end of the battle of Blackwater Bay. Loras is similar to Barristan Selmy, in the sense that he's seen as kind and noble. If he follows you and pledges his sword for you, it must be because you are kind and noble.
Yes, obviously the common people are only interested in staying fed, clothed and under a roof. They don't care about legitimacy (although they do care about sins that might undermine someone's legitimacy, like say being born of incest, that was something that the Targaryens had trouble getting by and only did so thanks to strong support and tradition, and people still believed it bred bad kings. The people of Westeros are superstitious, and tend to isolate those that might anger the gods, as to not share in their punishment). Things like who has a stronger claim to the trone after the rebellion against The Mad King, are of no importance to them. But, an evil, egotistical tyrant will without a doubt put in jeopardy that food, clothes and roof. So they do not want terrible, evil tyrants. They want good kings that will bring abundance, and share that abundance with them
How will they know however who a king really is? Well, you see the people that support him. Northerners have a reputation for having a stick up their asses about honor, law and tradition, so if a northerner high lord supports you, you are probably a lawful and conservative king. If Barristan is your head of the Kingsguard, you are probably an honorable king that favors action. If Loras is at your side you are probably kind, and you worry about the needs of your people. On the other hand, if you favor The Kingslayer, you might be an ambitious ruthless bastard yourself, capable of anything to fulfill your desires. It's obviously all bullshit, but I mean. We do that today. It's why it matters if an actor has had a recent scandal that might present them as biggoted. Oh, Henry Cavil has left the show The Witcher? Well, he is all about respecting the source material and fan expectations, so I'm sure that means that the direction of the project has turned away from that. People assign to you the values, priorities and deeds of the public faces that execute your projects. Public campaigns can alter the perception of the people, and therefore change the values the assign to your supporters and detractors, but that percieved relationship stays.
Of course the people were happy when Joffrey got engaged with Margaery. The crown has gotten us help! Sir Loras saved us from the terrible Stannis! Margaery feeds us and listens to us! And she said she's doing this by order and lead of the king! The Tyrells are great allies not just because of their wealth, but because they are universally well liked because they use that power to put up all those publicity stunts. When the crown joined with them, they also got to share in that fame. Just like the would with Barristan.
They didn't start singing the praises of Joffrey because Margaery fed them, so now they are happy. They started doing it because in their minds, the fact that the Tyrells were supporting him gave them hope and faith that he will continue to do so. That his egotistical and psycho ass is not going to destroy their lives.
Okay.
Barristan going to renly would give him support amongst the minor nobility who hadn't decided which way to go.
The smallfolk truly don't give a shit.
I’m gonna trust Tywin more on this matter.
Imagine if he DID join Stannis. Word would spread. I don't know if it would be enough for Stannis to win though.
Considering Stannis almost took king’s landing with what he DID have, having Barristan along would be a huge benefit.
Aside from being the best swordsman in Westeros at the time, he’d also have a lot of tactical and strategic advice to offer. Though my main concern is how Barristan would feel about Melisandre and Stannis killing Renly.
And of course, it means dany would likely die as barristan wouldn’t be there to save her from the manticore.
He wouldn't know about Melisandre killing Renly, for all he knew it was Brianne who did it.
As for the book, Tommen was out of King's Landing.
So even if he gets the city, he'll now be dealing with a siege.
Was he still with Joffrey she renly died? I could’ve sworn renly died after Barristan left. But it has been a while since I’ve seen the show.
The hypothetical is IF Barristan joined Stannis after being dismissed from the KingsGuard.
Barristan would have been at Stannis's with the meeting between him and Renly, but it was Davos who was with Melisandre and the Shadow Baby.
I think the smallfolk has other priorities
Exactly. That’s why Dany has burnt them
10/10 would watch the roast again
About to watch it again in a few episodes, myself.
One of the weaknesses of the worldbuilding I think. In Westeros, you are either a high noble or ridiculously poor with no agency because all your focus is on getting food for tomorrow.
Everyone between that, the lower nobility and the more powerful commoners gets ignored completely. And the church is also a complete afterthought.
Is the economy in Westeros so basic that there isn’t a middle class by now? Where are the merchants??
They are in all the medium sized cities that don't exist.
The lower nobility do exist, they just aren't discussed or shown very often - only briefly in AFFC and ADWD when George started focusing on world building more. Stannis has a lot of landed knights and minor nobles in his employ, and Wyman Manderly comments on the number of petty lords who are bannered directly to him.
Small folk wasn't exactly up in arms about Ned's execution.
Different in the show vs books. In the books there were actually people who were horrified and jeering.
Plus, this execution took place on the holy steps of the equivalent of the Vatican.
Huh? Weren’t the small folk throwing literal shit at Ned at his execution? They were portrayed as deranged shitheads who just believe whatever whoever’s king tells them.
Maybe I’m remembering it wrong?
"The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." - Jorah
reputation mattered more than law there, when people like ned or barristan are involved, the accusation itself looks weaker than their history
Seeing what the smallfolk in america will believe from the current administration, im not too sure you’re right about that
The small folk didnt like Ned at all he was a weirdo from the frozen desolate North
I mean the law only means as much as those around it will enforce it. They had the support of the other houses and the court.
Seems... so... relevant 😬
Barristan is a perfect example of lots of Americans in the federal government that are honorable people but don’t think too much about right and wrong but the chain of command. They are soldiers not leaders.
Let's see how those who were "just following orders" have been judged historically.... Oh, it's not a good verdict? Well........
That’s not what I mean. The Barristans of the world won’t directly do anything bad but they don’t worry if other people around them will.
Those people exist, but Barristan couldn't really have done much here besides fight and die. What was he really supposed to do besides that or leave?
I’m not criticizing just pointing out there are hundreds of thousands of people in the federal government that disagree with the administration but follow orders and stick around because “there’s nothing they can do about it anyway”.
It’s just sad to see so little moral backbone every day. Easy to see how Nazi Germany happened.
If he was truly an honorable man, he would've died fighting
Power is power. Obviously little finger and the police, forget the name, was on her side. She knew that before the audience did. She had all the allies to be this confident.
Plus Ned pissed her off. If Ned played the game and didn’t threaten her having him on the council would’ve kept the North at bay long enough to transfer the power.
Gold Cloaks/ City Watch
Gold Cloaks
Yea Ned’s nose didn’t belong in questioning the legitimacy of the Baratheon kids. His whole family line payed for it.
He was trying to figure out why his lifelong friend and father figured was murdered.
The way he did that was questioning the kings legitimacy like a moron
This is to the exact problem posed by Varys “riddle” to Tyrion. Barristan can kill who he wants in the room, but for what purpose? Does he have an idea of who should be king? How does he enforce it? Ned Stark is more aware of the process, but no one is respecting his power because he hasn’t bought the gold cloaks, and perhaps their honor isn’t enough to stand against the injustice that is happening.
Barristan just supports the current thing. Remember he only joined Danny because they threw his ass away.
He served Robert for saving his life.
What a honourable thing to do for a Kingsguard. Becoming the bitch of the dynasty who slaughtered the previous royal family you were sworn to defend.
He did say that he would have killed Robert if he smiled at the bodies of Rhegars children
Lot of talking. Few actions.
He joined Dany because he realized how corrupt the Baratheon/Lannister dynasty was.
That just makes him look like a idiot because he’s been around all of them for years
No. He litteraly went to her because Cersei dismissed him. Working for the Lannisters/Baratheon for years after the murder of Elia and her children didn't seem to puzzle him too much. What a bum.
He might’ve stood a chance at joining Ned and openly challenging Cersei if Renly, Stannis or the group of knights Beric led to hunt the Mountain were still in the capital, but almost all possible allies were gone.
Someone in power ignoring or failing to respect the law and rules for their own benefit, and becoming threatening toward those who oppose them? That’s definitely fiction.
I think those words hit Selmy a bit hard because he went for Aerys to Robert.
Why would he oppose it? It was obvious to anyone in that room with half a brain that that was a forged will.
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I mean, its literally shown in the show when Robert is giving his final wishes where Robert says one thing, and Ned writes a completely different thing. I mean what kind of horrible person does that to his supposed best friend. Truly a shame he was given a clean death.
It's not "completely different". He replaces Joffrey's regent with "rightful heir"s regent which is kind of the same thing because the other candidates do not require a regent.
Even the Hound reached for his sword.
If Barristan wanted to, he would have done a number on the kings guard before he is cut down. Probably goes directly for Joffery and Cersei.
Cersei was told by Tywin it was a stupid decision as he would have been loyal to protecting the king.
Always loved when he put her in her place
why can't I post a clever gif to express my answer?
Express it with words :D
Wait - your post is 80% picture.
Well who is he going to complain to exactly?
i wonder if ser barristan switching sides then and thre may have changed anything
Would have added a few corpses to the floor but otherwise nah.
I tend to agree that it wouldn’t have changed Cersei’s behavior BUT it is stated later in book that Barristan was a hero to the small folk; he was also well respected by pretty much every high born family in the realm. I think to slay him could have been very bad for their campaign by lending further credence to rumors of her villainy and turning more houses against them.
Weren't no smallfolk in the throne room. The traitor Ned Stark had his men ambush and murder the brave Ser Barristan in his attempt at a violent coup.
Let’s just say it’s fodder for rumors which notoriously go every which way in kings landing; Ned has nothing to lose from negative rumors (anymore), but the Lannisters have everything to lose. What’s more the Starks aren’t a threat to the Iron Throne; they just want the North, and any negative reputation inherited second hand by whichever new King they ally with will be much weaker and less relevant.
What's he going to do, take on the city watch?
Funnily enough. Because of the dance of dragons. The greens were able to make Aegon king despite the fact that Viserys affirmed Rhaenyra as queen and the great houses swore to that oath. If you can go back on your word from that then tearing up a piece of paper is nothing relatively speaking. I'm simply saying that there was precedent for going against the King's words after death.
He affirmed Rhaenyra, yes, but that was before an heir who would by established custom come before her was born, and after that Viserys pussied out and never clarified whether he wanted to stand by his initial decision or follow custom as expected. That King in particular was wishy washy, and technically Ned did finagle the truth of the King's words by changing Robert's "my son Joffrey" to "my rightful heir", but no one knew that except Ned (and maybe Cersei suspected it). So slightly different situations, I think.
They are also NOT the King's words, but Ned Stark's words. He wrote a different will, than that Robert told him.
Sure but no one would ever know for sure that's what happened, except for Ned himself.
She definitely got off easy in Season 8.
She deserved a far worse death.
If this was in season 8 people would lose their minds but because it was in season 1 people give it a free pass when it’s actually absurd.
I wonder what would have happened next if he had actually cut through the lot of them like a hot knife through cheese.
I mean, he swore to protect the king and the royal family. If he didn’t stop Aerys from burning people alive, why would anyone think he’d act against Cersei for tearing up a dead king’s will?