Even if the railway is at grade, it is still much narrower than a highway of equivalent capacity. Plus, a railway is used far less frequently; even extremely busy routes have a couple minutes between trains. You'd be hard pressed to find a moment without cars on a busy highway.
Plus trains are so loud that I imagine any animal gets spooked and runs away, rather than a highway where getting spooked could make them run INTO traffic
The rails are a problem for some other countries who don't invest on elevating it. Most trains in china also passes through farm lands but it doesn't farmers harvesting
As I said to a comment essentially identical to yours:
Sure, but trains benefit far more from a gentle grade, so rails are put on viaducts, or in tunnels over far more of their length. Also because two sets of results can carry a huge volume of passengers and cargo, but isn't bigger than a two leave road, it makes more sense to spend the money to build more of it elevated.
So yes, it makes 0 difference to wildlife if that bridge carries trains or road vehicles. But it makes a huge difference to the builders of it, and it wouldn't have been built like that for road vehicles.
In a typical transaction, debtors promise to route their principal commodity export revenues through overseas bank accounts that remain out of public sight and largely beyond their control until the debts are repaid. The cash balances in these accounts, mostly located in China and controlled by the lenders, can be very large; in low-income, commodity-exporting countries, they average more than 20% of annual public debt service to all external creditors.
BUT, the nations who accept the loans are generally doing well. In 2025, China lent $250 billion to emerging economies for renewable energy infrastructure.. That helps them develop their economies, but also displaces demand for oil imports. They are buying the equipment from China, and getting maintenance parts, but it is a good investment - the buyers don't have to import sunshine and wind . In the 2024 Council of Parties, the UN set a goal for all developed countries to fund $300 billion a year to buy renewables, as an aspirational goal. . China just decided to do 83% of the work themselves and profit on it. Geopolitics is complicated and there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" . But China is not doing this out of charity; they may, however have a long term business model based on building up the poorest people in the world and preventing the planet from overheating, while gaining wealth and power for themselves.
I agree with the skepticism of the loan system and concerns about predatory repayment systems, but I've still always felt that at the end of the day if any of these african countries decided to renege on the deal...they still have the infrastructure and infrastructure is what matters for improving the lives of people, not the presence of a multinational corporation extracting your resources and leaving you out of the deal. Seems like a better and safer deal than anything the west is offering the global south.
If one nation decides to not repay, China excludes them from important global trade, and possibly funds a rival. Maybe they fund a military rival, which could be an existential threat, but they don't have an expeditionary military force of their own (yet). If several nations stop paying the loans, China gas very limited recourse. But so far, the loans are a winning deal for both sides, even if we consider that African countries don't always have a unified national interest, what benefits the ruling group sometimes benefits other groups much less, if at all.
Right so, the same stuff the west threatens smaller countries if they don't play ball? Yes, there would be consequences which would have to be weighed against whatever harm the loan system could be causing, but the railroad is still already built.
Well, if you strap on your reading comprehension helmet and re-read the original thread, it is a hypothetical action taken to address non-payment and forcible repatriation of the infrastructure assets. Which are hypothetical possibilities.
The following quote is from the comment I'm replying to, italics are mine:
I agree with the skepticism of the loan system and concerns about predatory repayment systems, but I've still always felt that at the end of the day if any of these african countries decided to renege on the deal...
Economic sanctions are an accepted response to norm breaking by nation states, it is a reasonable thing to conjecture. China is extremely well positioned to impose sanctions, because of how much trade they directly control.
but I've still always felt that at the end of the day if any of these african countries decided to renege on the deal.
And how did it work out for all the infrastructure build by Western colonizers?
As stated by GreenStrong, it's still very much problematic. It would mean no maintenance support (and in the Netherlands it seems that Chinese EV-busses have a hidden killswitch) and perhaps exclusion from trade. Making sure said infrastructure will just rot away.
" Now there are concerns after it was announced that the Chinese bus company can remotely drive the already-driving buses in Norway and Denmark."
I'm Norwegian, that has never been true.
It's literally the EXACT same propaganda as the shit you're linking.
"We have no proof at all or even a real suspicion but the Chinese clearly have a backdoor which they can use to turn the buses off in case of war... We suspect, maybe, again we have no proof."
I recommend to read the NRC article. More details and it shows clearly that your fellow country mates found over the air connections to Romania on the Chinese busses.
But hey of course a tankie denies any Chinese wrong doing or problematic posturing.
China isn't altruistic but they're also not dumb and don't want to ruin their relationship with African nations. They want a return on their investment but they know the importance of saving face and keeping good public relations.
Some of the talk of Chinese debt traps is exaggerated. Like how there were reports starting in 2020 that China could try to seize Uganda's Entebbe Airport over a loan default. But China hasn't done anything to try to take over the airport. They've given Uganda more loans, expanded the airport, and developed the surrounding areas.
China has recently forgiven the debt of some African countries; for them, having partners in the developing region is very advantageous because the infrastructure reduces the cost of raw materials.
I wanted to add that, for now, there's simply no evidence that China is setting up a debt trap similar or worse than what the IMF does with its debts attached to austerity requirements. Additionally, only about 12% of external debt of African countries is owed to Chinese institutions, most debt is still owed to western institutions.
Anyone talking about debt trap is basing it all on speculation for now, and, much on the contrary, China has pardoned billions in debts for several countries.
As you said, we can't know for sure the geopolitical goals and implications, but it's good to know the facts for once
Good is as good does. Their policies have been far more helpful and less destructive than the US and Western Europe, whose development came packaged with coups and death squads. Obviously China is looking out for their own interests, but if they see peaceful development of the third world as part of those interests, that's great!
It's not "both sides", China has been far more willing to engage in technology transfers with third world nations and overall give them better deals than western countries.
So do you have the same kind of critique for World Bank and IMF loans? Or coups funded by western nations? I assume you are aware of these systems and historical facts, and not just bringing this up because you're anti-China.
It’s not just that. It’s also the American people think public transit is for poors. And providing more transit means the poors might be able to come to my neighborhood. Or and in many places the black community is generally the least affluent. So is it a class war or racism, or maybe both?
P.S. - I don’t endorse this belief, but hear it more often than I’d like to admit.
It’s mostly related to legal tape at all levels of gov, ranging from small town NIMBYs to state labor laws to federal scale environmental laws. If you ignore those things (China) you can build anything.
I have made a new Eritrean mutual who lives in ethopia in Instagram. He posts photos of Addis Ababa and the bike paths are actually separated from the cars and pedestrians, light rail is consistent. Meanwhile where i live in Australia even the inner downtown can't cut down a lane from 3 to 2 to do the same in areas without a light rail
Melbourne but really, it can apply australia wide. i used melbourne because despite the extensive tram network (which is great!), places like port melbourne are somehow still a shitshow
oh i literally live there, the word light rail threw me off. its such a shame how addicted we are to cars, and how a car free cbd+high streets could solve so much
Please correct me if this is wrong, but when I visited Kenya last year our driver told us these Chinese highways and railways are quite unpopular because they’re not employing Kenyans to build them. They’re also pretty heavily tolled so most of the locals can’t afford to use them. It basically adds nothing to the Kenyan economy and they’re only really there for the Chinese to transport rare metals.
Certainly a better deal than what Europe or America ever offered them which basically amounted to taking those resources for free after installing a new dictatorial regime.
No, no it doesn't, as a kenyan american we have 1 decent diesel train from the capital to the coast/port city, but even salt lake city has better public transport in cities, and other areas simply arent connected by train unlike most of the eastern seaboard
It was built by China with the purpose of getting things out of Africa. Minerals, etc, like much of African infrastructure built by colonists and neo colonists. Its also a freight train. Unfortunately, the SGR train is like amtrak. Unaffordable and unsustainable for the average person's everyday use. Walkability in African countries is horrible even though there are large portions of people throughout the continent that dont drive. This is becuase of the need for mineral extraction and trade routes. China doesnt care about the average African Unfortunately. Multiple of their mismanaged mines have collapsed with dozens of casualties each and one recently killed 73 people.
Yes, because China uses 'soft power' (hard power in this case) to seed goodwill... and when Kenya flowers in a decade, they'll despise the US and embrace China in a heartbeat... rightfully.
I've been there. For context it's only a few miles from the centre of Nairobi and didn't seem to bother the animals. I thought it looked great and amazing to see lions, giraffes and everything else a 20 minute journey from the middle of a big metropolis!
It would be so cool (and not very expensive compared to the total cost of the railway) if they lined the bottom 10m of those columns with natural stone. Infrastructure can be made to blend in without triggering discomfort in humans (or other animals) by giving bad habitat signals.
Kinda like the I-91 Bridge in Brattleboro, Vermont, they lined the base of the concrete pillars more natural looking “stonework”. Still fake and an awful interstate, but it could look a lot worse
Personally, I’d hate that, feels cheap to make only down part with fancy materials. Also, concrete is nice material, I like it, it’s just usually it’s used in bad places. And I bet animals aren’t picky about rocks, all zoos I know use a lot of raw concrete.
It's nice, but you could just say it's a railway viaduct. No one says "French-built railway in Morocco" or "British-built railway in Argentina"; it's just a railway in Morocco and Panama, unless you're propagandizing.
Not to mention this is ignoring the thousands of Kenyan workers who put their labor into the railway.
do they really? i get taught in history class that railways here were built and mostly managed by british companies but nobody calls the railway "british-built" in any common conversation, at least that i've heard on my lifetime
I visited the British-built railroad in Jordan which is how the locals described it. I also visited the Japanese-built bridge in Vietnam which is literally called the Japanese Bridge. It's really not that deep.
Its a thinly veiled attempt at generating outrage at Chinese construction companies operating in Africa. Since the west has branded China one of its enemies they expect everyone else to follow suit like we're still their vassal colonies.
China is absolutely plundering Kenyan resources, at least. I can’t speak for the rest of the continent. Not saying the west is better, I just don’t think that’s a reason to turn a blind eye to a new power taking advantage.
Your best example is an app that allows people to freely communicate? USAID had thousands of projects per year. I’m sure there is a stray one here or there with political means but for every one for your examples, there are literally hundreds that people die without
Documents show the US government planned to build a subscriber base through "non-controversial content": news messages on soccer, music, and hurricane updates. Later when the network reached a critical mass of subscribers, perhaps hundreds of thousands, operators would introduce political content aimed at inspiring Cubans to organize "smart mobs" — mass gatherings called at a moment's notice that might trigger a Cuban spring, or, as one USAid document put it, "renegotiate the balance of power between the state and society."
When I'm a humanitarian aid organisation, but I "accidentally" do an attempt at regime change 😅. Whoops sorry, it's an easy mistake to make lol, can happen to anyone smh.
Remind me, how many times has Oxfam accidentally attempted to overthrow a government?
Sure, I don’t really care. You’re throwing out the baby with the bath water. Doesn’t seem like it belongs in USAID, but if you think cutting 20B in actual food, water, and medical aid is good, then either people will die or other countries will fill the void.
Except USA just gave a 20 billion $ to Argentina for no reason and according to their new security strategy they will help exporting russian gas and fuel
Got any source on this "debt trapping" besides conservative news? America hates the idea of anyone not being dependent on them and loves to spin them partnering with nations like China as some dastardly evil plot.
That's not what this is about. If you think what Europe has done to Africa is bad, you shouldn't hesitate to criticise China when they are doing exactly the same. Otherwise you're just going to come off as a tankie.
Wait, China is massacring natives and chopping Congolese children’s hands off because their parents haven’t satisfied the farming quota? Where are we raising our pitchforks?
Which again, you have no proof they are even doing. And now that you've brought up everything bad done by Europe to Africa, how about we mention that they haven't paid reparations for any of that shit.
Now that Africa is going elsewhere for help in developing their infrastructure Europe suddenly pretends to be scared for Africa's future? Get fucked.
Please be serious, you really think China just committed centuries of colonialism, ecocide, apartheid, genocides, slavery, raping, destabilization, resource extraction etc and nobody saw it and talked about it?
Let's be serious for a minute. You think Pan Africans wouldn't say anything about this? All eyes are on China right now, we know what they are doing, and they get called out if industry and investment stakeholders do wrongs.
In the meantime Western interested parties are still very busy trying to extract more and deny all the crimes they committed to avoid reparation.
the united states literally propped up a dictator in kenya that my parents lived under to prevent the spread of communism, nowadays china builds railways while we got nothing from being a glorified CIA base(which we still are)
Yeah I'm definitely not thrilled with this initiative by China because it seems like the direction it's going is a neocolonialist one, but I'll be very happy if proven wrong.
There is a huge amount of readily available evidence that the loans China is giving are WAY better for these countries and are just way better deals than American backed loans. It's what happens when you actually want to collaborate with other countries and are investing in their future vs what happens when you want to remain the hedgemonic global imperialist power.
Or, alternatively, it's what happens when you want to become the bigger hegemonic global imperialist power.
Both can be bad. Just because "the West has done worse" doesn't mean there shouldn't be scrutiny, and discussion.
It's important to talk about how shitty the American backed loans are and what the advantages are for a country to invest infrastructure and goodwill into another developing nation etc. It's multifaceted, but getting all "China bad US good" or "America Evil, China can do no wrong" is just tribalistic and won't actually educate anyone on the subject, or engage realistic discussion.
Anyone can dogpile and quote sound bites. It takes effort to actually engage and teach, and the algorithm doesn't really reward that, so I fully understand why everyone is talking the way they are here but seriously every comment in this thread could be replied with a simple "Porque no los dos?" Because BOTH CAN BE BAD and there is SO MUCH ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. Praising exploitive labor practices is honestly hilarious, like sure everything is relative and if the sour that is American loans makes the Chinese loans sweet, that's... One way to look at it, I suppose, I just think we should strive and lobby for better, especially if more people were educated on the differences etc.
"There's a huge amount of readily available information" that you aren't citing, even though it's so readily available.
My state was aiming to have a Spanish built fancy pants tilt train... Until the Spanish company realised it wasn't going to be running between major cities.
In this sub's context it's relevant. It's a majestic and expensive piece of non-car infrastructure that's uncommon in developing countries and it's only natural to want to know who promotes this kind of infrastructural development.
The Chinese are relatively good about allowing countries to basically “pay what they can” for these projects. The main value to them is the access to materials and improved relations. Both of those would be endangered by worrying about returning the debt as soon as possible.
Instead, we find those debt renegotiations usually involve a more balanced outcome between lender and borrower, ranging from extensions of loan terms and repayment deadlines to explicit refinancing, or partial or even total debt forgiveness
i used to be concerned about these chinese debt trap infrastructure projects in africa,
until i realize this is a practice that every rich country did to them and the rest of the underdeveloped world
at least the chinese didnt butcher any african person like cattle animals for not fulfilling their quotas or daring to say "no"
I think that's pretty much the point of them. It's China spending massive amounts of money as "goodwill" to a country, to hopefully improve soft power in that country to China.
This is like one of those sci-fi establishing shots of a megastructure but without a reference point until they throw in something that we know is big, so the megastructure must be hella big
Don't want to spoil your fun, but this is just a bridge between two hills, built for practical reasons, not for wildlife preservation. The rail will be level again once that's feasible.
I remember when this was first suggested, people did try hard to push back against it. The Kenyan government really isn’t safeguarding the country and its resources the way they need to be.
The last time my mum was there, I believe she said she saw large scale harvesting of soil, to be transferred to China (Kenyan soil is obviously very rich). It’s like they’ll sell anything they can get a price for, with no regard for its future impact on the country. Especially considering most of that money is probably making its way into the personal coffers of the politicians themselves. It’s infuriating.
Was in Kenya...the Kenyas are furious that their government is giving away its country. China builds all their infrastructure for pennies, BUT they get to keep all the mineral rights - trillions of dollars under the ground.
The corruption in these east African countries would make the trump administration look honest
I mentioned this in another comment, but these corrupt politicians are literally selling the soil. Because the soil is such a rich resource, they’re allowing it to be plundered in high volume, and transported away to China while they line their pockets. And that’s the tip of the iceberg. It’s foul.
Having a much smaller land footprint like this which also allows animals to pass under sounds pretty environmental to me. Much more so than being trapped on either side or being squashed by cars like on highways. Also trains are orders of magnitude more efficient and environmentally friendly than cars, and this is train infructure, so I think this is a huge win for the environment.
The amount of carbon it would take to produce an equivalent amount of steel far exceeds the amount of carbon from producing concrete. Mining ore, refining, and smelting are incredibly energy intensive and most often rely on coal to get the furnaces hot enough.
Ah yes, a train built by racists who ignored environmental protestors and desecrated a national park to cause job displacements to move an uneconomical amount of cargo and passengers leading to unsustainable debt repayments so the train to nowhere can be traded for the port of Mombasa.
Something something something the US and west are worse.
Something something something the ends justify the means.
Me when I make shit up. I know you thought you were cooking but this is cringy af. You're trying too hard when everyone can tell you have no idea what you're talking about.
Honestly, im just glad the animals can get through
One of the many advantages of rails over roads is that it makes animal crossing easier, often trivially easy for the animals.
It also allows you to play Animal Crossing while being on it, so it's also easier in that way
Sometimes they go splat, though. If the rails are on the ground, obviously.
Far less splat than a highway though.
Probably, yeah.
Even if the railway is at grade, it is still much narrower than a highway of equivalent capacity. Plus, a railway is used far less frequently; even extremely busy routes have a couple minutes between trains. You'd be hard pressed to find a moment without cars on a busy highway.
Plus trains are so loud that I imagine any animal gets spooked and runs away, rather than a highway where getting spooked could make them run INTO traffic
In my career I‘ve seen more animals crossing in front of my train without splat than actually splatting them
The rails are a problem for some other countries who don't invest on elevating it. Most trains in china also passes through farm lands but it doesn't farmers harvesting
Okay, to be fair, we're this bridge for cars, nothing would've changed except from the noise.
As I said to a comment essentially identical to yours:
So yes, it makes 0 difference to wildlife if that bridge carries trains or road vehicles. But it makes a huge difference to the builders of it, and it wouldn't have been built like that for road vehicles.
“What strange trees. Anyway, let us continue our migration.” 🦒🦒🦒
“Mind your head”
Wow TIL Kenya has a better train system than any place in North America
Corruption and lobbing is too strong in America for us to have basic efficient public transportation
This is just one example of China going all in on soft power in Africa.
It doesn’t have to be.
Violently
These infrastructure projects financed by China are based on loans with provisions that the terms of repayment are secret. Highly undemocratic and open to corruption.
BUT, the nations who accept the loans are generally doing well. In 2025, China lent $250 billion to emerging economies for renewable energy infrastructure.. That helps them develop their economies, but also displaces demand for oil imports. They are buying the equipment from China, and getting maintenance parts, but it is a good investment - the buyers don't have to import sunshine and wind . In the 2024 Council of Parties, the UN set a goal for all developed countries to fund $300 billion a year to buy renewables, as an aspirational goal. . China just decided to do 83% of the work themselves and profit on it. Geopolitics is complicated and there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" . But China is not doing this out of charity; they may, however have a long term business model based on building up the poorest people in the world and preventing the planet from overheating, while gaining wealth and power for themselves.
I agree with the skepticism of the loan system and concerns about predatory repayment systems, but I've still always felt that at the end of the day if any of these african countries decided to renege on the deal...they still have the infrastructure and infrastructure is what matters for improving the lives of people, not the presence of a multinational corporation extracting your resources and leaving you out of the deal. Seems like a better and safer deal than anything the west is offering the global south.
If one nation decides to not repay, China excludes them from important global trade, and possibly funds a rival. Maybe they fund a military rival, which could be an existential threat, but they don't have an expeditionary military force of their own (yet). If several nations stop paying the loans, China gas very limited recourse. But so far, the loans are a winning deal for both sides, even if we consider that African countries don't always have a unified national interest, what benefits the ruling group sometimes benefits other groups much less, if at all.
You almost make China sound like the US there.
Only difference is the actual investment and improvement before the possible negative consequences.
Right so, the same stuff the west threatens smaller countries if they don't play ball? Yes, there would be consequences which would have to be weighed against whatever harm the loan system could be causing, but the railroad is still already built.
Got a source for that rather obvious lie?
Well, if you strap on your reading comprehension helmet and re-read the original thread, it is a hypothetical action taken to address non-payment and forcible repatriation of the infrastructure assets. Which are hypothetical possibilities.
The following quote is from the comment I'm replying to, italics are mine:
Economic sanctions are an accepted response to norm breaking by nation states, it is a reasonable thing to conjecture. China is extremely well positioned to impose sanctions, because of how much trade they directly control.
Lmao
And how did it work out for all the infrastructure build by Western colonizers?
As stated by GreenStrong, it's still very much problematic. It would mean no maintenance support (and in the Netherlands it seems that Chinese EV-busses have a hidden killswitch) and perhaps exclusion from trade. Making sure said infrastructure will just rot away.
Source?
https://www.rtvnoord.nl/verkeer/RX-356/terugkerende-zorgen-over-chinese-bussen-provincie-ziet-geen-reden-tot-zorg
&
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2025/11/10/noren-bang-voor-chinese-bussen-met-een-kill-switch-a4912283
" Now there are concerns after it was announced that the Chinese bus company can remotely drive the already-driving buses in Norway and Denmark."
I'm Norwegian, that has never been true.
It's literally the EXACT same propaganda as the shit you're linking.
"We have no proof at all or even a real suspicion but the Chinese clearly have a backdoor which they can use to turn the buses off in case of war... We suspect, maybe, again we have no proof."
I recommend to read the NRC article. More details and it shows clearly that your fellow country mates found over the air connections to Romania on the Chinese busses.
But hey of course a tankie denies any Chinese wrong doing or problematic posturing.
They haven't found a fucking thing though, which was my point that you just glossed over, it's stupid propaganda.
Guess when you can't back up your claims the 'logical' next step is to try to fling dirt on others.
China isn't altruistic but they're also not dumb and don't want to ruin their relationship with African nations. They want a return on their investment but they know the importance of saving face and keeping good public relations.
Some of the talk of Chinese debt traps is exaggerated. Like how there were reports starting in 2020 that China could try to seize Uganda's Entebbe Airport over a loan default. But China hasn't done anything to try to take over the airport. They've given Uganda more loans, expanded the airport, and developed the surrounding areas.
China has never actually done the evil debt trap shit the US does through the IMF.
Stop posting bullshit like this.
China has recently forgiven the debt of some African countries; for them, having partners in the developing region is very advantageous because the infrastructure reduces the cost of raw materials.
They've done that many times over the years actually, not just recently
I wanted to add that, for now, there's simply no evidence that China is setting up a debt trap similar or worse than what the IMF does with its debts attached to austerity requirements. Additionally, only about 12% of external debt of African countries is owed to Chinese institutions, most debt is still owed to western institutions.
Anyone talking about debt trap is basing it all on speculation for now, and, much on the contrary, China has pardoned billions in debts for several countries.
As you said, we can't know for sure the geopolitical goals and implications, but it's good to know the facts for once
China >>>>>>>>>> IMF, France, US, Israel, etc
Good is as good does. Their policies have been far more helpful and less destructive than the US and Western Europe, whose development came packaged with coups and death squads. Obviously China is looking out for their own interests, but if they see peaceful development of the third world as part of those interests, that's great!
it never was for charity, be the imf or western backed "investments". both sides always wanted the same thing.
It's not "both sides", China has been far more willing to engage in technology transfers with third world nations and overall give them better deals than western countries.
Holy requestAnimationFrame batman!
Or they can go with the IMF and have their entire economy privatised for western profits
So do you have the same kind of critique for World Bank and IMF loans? Or coups funded by western nations? I assume you are aware of these systems and historical facts, and not just bringing this up because you're anti-China.
Or healthcare, or homes, or food, or rule of law, or human rights, or actually abolishing slavery, or a function democracy.
It’s not just that. It’s also the American people think public transit is for poors. And providing more transit means the poors might be able to come to my neighborhood. Or and in many places the black community is generally the least affluent. So is it a class war or racism, or maybe both?
P.S. - I don’t endorse this belief, but hear it more often than I’d like to admit.
*Corruption and bribery
It’s mostly related to legal tape at all levels of gov, ranging from small town NIMBYs to state labor laws to federal scale environmental laws. If you ignore those things (China) you can build anything.
It's the corporations having their hands in our gov's pocket. Profit motive taking precedence over the health of society.
(aka capitalism)
I have made a new Eritrean mutual who lives in ethopia in Instagram. He posts photos of Addis Ababa and the bike paths are actually separated from the cars and pedestrians, light rail is consistent. Meanwhile where i live in Australia even the inner downtown can't cut down a lane from 3 to 2 to do the same in areas without a light rail
As soon as Holden shut down, Australia should’ve collectively said “Oy, ya know what, mates? Fuck cars, the fuckin’ cunts.”
Instead we got bigger cars driven by people who can't be trusted on a pushie xD
let me guess : canberra, sydney or Newcastle?
Melbourne but really, it can apply australia wide. i used melbourne because despite the extensive tram network (which is great!), places like port melbourne are somehow still a shitshow
oh i literally live there, the word light rail threw me off. its such a shame how addicted we are to cars, and how a car free cbd+high streets could solve so much
China is investing a lot in Africa, keeping good relations with them and in exchange getting the precious rare metals. Basically soft power.
Please correct me if this is wrong, but when I visited Kenya last year our driver told us these Chinese highways and railways are quite unpopular because they’re not employing Kenyans to build them. They’re also pretty heavily tolled so most of the locals can’t afford to use them. It basically adds nothing to the Kenyan economy and they’re only really there for the Chinese to transport rare metals.
Interesting, thanks for the insight from the locals there. Now I'm curious if that railway is mainly there for transporting resources.
Certainly a better deal than what Europe or America ever offered them which basically amounted to taking those resources for free after installing a new dictatorial regime.
The car and oil lobbies won in the 50's
No, no it doesn't, as a kenyan american we have 1 decent diesel train from the capital to the coast/port city, but even salt lake city has better public transport in cities, and other areas simply arent connected by train unlike most of the eastern seaboard
I REALLY wish thay was true but naw we still got a LONG way to go.
The US's train system is excellent - for freight. It's for freight with passengers as an afterthought.
It was built by China with the purpose of getting things out of Africa. Minerals, etc, like much of African infrastructure built by colonists and neo colonists. Its also a freight train. Unfortunately, the SGR train is like amtrak. Unaffordable and unsustainable for the average person's everyday use. Walkability in African countries is horrible even though there are large portions of people throughout the continent that dont drive. This is becuase of the need for mineral extraction and trade routes. China doesnt care about the average African Unfortunately. Multiple of their mismanaged mines have collapsed with dozens of casualties each and one recently killed 73 people.
That’s not true. Kenya rail system is garbage as well 🫱🏻🫲🏿
Yes, because China uses 'soft power' (hard power in this case) to seed goodwill... and when Kenya flowers in a decade, they'll despise the US and embrace China in a heartbeat... rightfully.
I've been there. For context it's only a few miles from the centre of Nairobi and didn't seem to bother the animals. I thought it looked great and amazing to see lions, giraffes and everything else a 20 minute journey from the middle of a big metropolis!
It seems like a better solution than a road directly on the land, I’ll say that.
I can’t believe giraffes got good rail transit before Americans
I think it's freight only unfortunately. Public transport in Nairobi was pretty much non existent outside of some fairly wacky looking private busses.
It's both, the passenger trains on it are called the Madaraka Express
Giraffe for scale
Bananimal for scale
China builds railways in Africa while US digs their own grave
The same railway also runs between the two Tsavo (East and West) parks.
And the view from both it and the Nairobi airport is pretty cool (you can see the giraffes while landing, it's very funny).
I hope they didn’t lose too many workers to lions this time
It would be so cool (and not very expensive compared to the total cost of the railway) if they lined the bottom 10m of those columns with natural stone. Infrastructure can be made to blend in without triggering discomfort in humans (or other animals) by giving bad habitat signals.
If that helps the animals, sure, but I feel like it would look very kitschy and ugly. They are massive pillars. They will not blend in.
Kinda like the I-91 Bridge in Brattleboro, Vermont, they lined the base of the concrete pillars more natural looking “stonework”. Still fake and an awful interstate, but it could look a lot worse
Yeah, that's ugly. I'm imagining large boulders of local stone, not thin stone bricks.
Personally, I’d hate that, feels cheap to make only down part with fancy materials. Also, concrete is nice material, I like it, it’s just usually it’s used in bad places. And I bet animals aren’t picky about rocks, all zoos I know use a lot of raw concrete.
It's not like the animals can leave if they don't like their zoo enclosure
Zoos are the standard now
Just painting them would be better i recon
What are they supposed to be; giraffes for ANTS?!
Really though, those are monstrously huge. Impressive engineering, as usual, my Chinese comrades.
It's nice, but you could just say it's a railway viaduct. No one says "French-built railway in Morocco" or "British-built railway in Argentina"; it's just a railway in Morocco and Panama, unless you're propagandizing.
Not to mention this is ignoring the thousands of Kenyan workers who put their labor into the railway.
I mean people do say that but I get your point
do they really? i get taught in history class that railways here were built and mostly managed by british companies but nobody calls the railway "british-built" in any common conversation, at least that i've heard on my lifetime
I can think of a country with a very famously British built train system
We do, here in Britain.
We don't call any railways nazi-built in Norway.
Ask a Nazi.
Ahhh yes, the French-built statue of liberty
I visited the British-built railroad in Jordan which is how the locals described it. I also visited the Japanese-built bridge in Vietnam which is literally called the Japanese Bridge. It's really not that deep.
China is heavy on their propaganda for gaining influence in Africa though.
They just have to be slightly less shit than western nations
Its a thinly veiled attempt at generating outrage at Chinese construction companies operating in Africa. Since the west has branded China one of its enemies they expect everyone else to follow suit like we're still their vassal colonies.
Exactly, and what had the west done for Africa other than plunder its resources and enslave the population.
China is literally enslaving Africans and plundering their resources too though.
https://preview.redd.it/umilj5o7dn6g1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10e1f3f0aca840efe8686c8158e918e0e5d69a01
source?
https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/africa-allegations-of-human-rights-violations-by-chinese-owned-firms-in-southern-africa-emerge-in-new-report/
https://apnews.com/article/south-africa-chinese-human-trafficking-sentence-a72fcba8bfaaa6e967c56d03dc1cf5b0
China is absolutely plundering Kenyan resources, at least. I can’t speak for the rest of the continent. Not saying the west is better, I just don’t think that’s a reason to turn a blind eye to a new power taking advantage.
Meanwhile, the west completely abandons Africa, the US ends all foreign development everywhere.
Unironically this is the most helpful thing they've ever done.
I think that Africans and others dying of HIV/AIDS because of reduced support for PEPFAR is bad.
USAID focused on food, water, and medicine outreach.
What you’re referring to is military and secretive counter ops. That budget is way up!!
My favourite example of USAID's focus on only food, water, and medicine outreach was that time when they created a fake social media app to undermine the Cuban government in an attempt at regime change.
Your best example is an app that allows people to freely communicate? USAID had thousands of projects per year. I’m sure there is a stray one here or there with political means but for every one for your examples, there are literally hundreds that people die without
Did you even read any of the article?!
When I'm a humanitarian aid organisation, but I "accidentally" do an attempt at regime change 😅. Whoops sorry, it's an easy mistake to make lol, can happen to anyone smh.
Remind me, how many times has Oxfam accidentally attempted to overthrow a government?
Sure, I don’t really care. You’re throwing out the baby with the bath water. Doesn’t seem like it belongs in USAID, but if you think cutting 20B in actual food, water, and medical aid is good, then either people will die or other countries will fill the void.
Genuine humanitarian aid organisations don't accidentally do regime change. Regime change organisations that use humanitarian aid as a front do.
Except USA just gave a 20 billion $ to Argentina for no reason and according to their new security strategy they will help exporting russian gas and fuel
Hey now, US ended all foreign development. No one said anything about bribes and corruption.
I mean, China debt trapping countries so they can then take ownership of critical infrastructure isn’t really “good” though.
Meanwhile France creates debt out of thin air and builds no infrastructure.
Got any source on this "debt trapping" besides conservative news? America hates the idea of anyone not being dependent on them and loves to spin them partnering with nations like China as some dastardly evil plot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-trap_diplomacyIMF and World Bank
Your source is a wikipedia article about the practice itself? 😂
Considering a large portion of the article is talking about exactly what they said, it seems like a reasonable source
When we do it, it good. When China do it it's bad.
China doesn’t actually do it though that’s why they’re good
That's not what this is about. If you think what Europe has done to Africa is bad, you shouldn't hesitate to criticise China when they are doing exactly the same. Otherwise you're just going to come off as a tankie.
Wait, China is massacring natives and chopping Congolese children’s hands off because their parents haven’t satisfied the farming quota? Where are we raising our pitchforks?
Which again, you have no proof they are even doing. And now that you've brought up everything bad done by Europe to Africa, how about we mention that they haven't paid reparations for any of that shit.
Now that Africa is going elsewhere for help in developing their infrastructure Europe suddenly pretends to be scared for Africa's future? Get fucked.
They aren’t doing the exactly same thing though.
Please be serious, you really think China just committed centuries of colonialism, ecocide, apartheid, genocides, slavery, raping, destabilization, resource extraction etc and nobody saw it and talked about it?
Let's be serious for a minute. You think Pan Africans wouldn't say anything about this? All eyes are on China right now, we know what they are doing, and they get called out if industry and investment stakeholders do wrongs.
In the meantime Western interested parties are still very busy trying to extract more and deny all the crimes they committed to avoid reparation.
Yeah it wouldn’t be good if they did that. And it’s bad that the US/Europe actually does that.
The West has done wayy worse
But would you do propaganda for western colonialism??
the united states literally propped up a dictator in kenya that my parents lived under to prevent the spread of communism, nowadays china builds railways while we got nothing from being a glorified CIA base(which we still are)
Yeah I'm definitely not thrilled with this initiative by China because it seems like the direction it's going is a neocolonialist one, but I'll be very happy if proven wrong.
There is a huge amount of readily available evidence that the loans China is giving are WAY better for these countries and are just way better deals than American backed loans. It's what happens when you actually want to collaborate with other countries and are investing in their future vs what happens when you want to remain the hedgemonic global imperialist power.
Or, alternatively, it's what happens when you want to become the bigger hegemonic global imperialist power.
Both can be bad. Just because "the West has done worse" doesn't mean there shouldn't be scrutiny, and discussion.
It's important to talk about how shitty the American backed loans are and what the advantages are for a country to invest infrastructure and goodwill into another developing nation etc. It's multifaceted, but getting all "China bad US good" or "America Evil, China can do no wrong" is just tribalistic and won't actually educate anyone on the subject, or engage realistic discussion.
Anyone can dogpile and quote sound bites. It takes effort to actually engage and teach, and the algorithm doesn't really reward that, so I fully understand why everyone is talking the way they are here but seriously every comment in this thread could be replied with a simple "Porque no los dos?" Because BOTH CAN BE BAD and there is SO MUCH ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. Praising exploitive labor practices is honestly hilarious, like sure everything is relative and if the sour that is American loans makes the Chinese loans sweet, that's... One way to look at it, I suppose, I just think we should strive and lobby for better, especially if more people were educated on the differences etc.
"There's a huge amount of readily available information" that you aren't citing, even though it's so readily available.
Yeah man lol im trying to finish my master's thesis in the next week I'm not taking the time to do your research for you, I apologize.
China train good
🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳
🚄🚄🚄🚄🚄🚄
My state was aiming to have a Spanish built fancy pants tilt train... Until the Spanish company realised it wasn't going to be running between major cities.
its because westeners cannot fathom an african nation is able to build its own infraestructure without someone doing it for them
Which is the sad truth for most, because of decades of corruption and other nations robbing people and natural resources.
Acting like it's not the case doesn't help anyone.
In this sub's context it's relevant. It's a majestic and expensive piece of non-car infrastructure that's uncommon in developing countries and it's only natural to want to know who promotes this kind of infrastructural development.
It won't be long until the US is less developed than Africa at this rate
At least this will not cause collisions with animals.
Mandatory r/megalophobia
https://preview.redd.it/vrkvy2sv0p6g1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b7fea4ace659bb56cf20ca19aa7b677c0928adc
Reminds me of the main field area in the Galar region (Pokémon)
As much as I dislike one party systems, and the Chinese Communist Party, they are doing great work with rail infrastructure.
The Chinese are building the future and they know that no one else is able to or willing to maintain these pieces of infrastructure.
They’re tethering themselves to this world and it’s going to be pretty telling when Africa’s rail system makes the USAs look archaic and “3rd world”.
This is probably happening well within in our lifetimes.
When America does imperialism, the targeted country gets zero benefit.
But when China does economic imperialism, with direct benefits to the target country, done voluntarily in the open- nooooo stop stop.
As a Kenyan official once put it: "Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture."
If you refer to the photo you can easily see that it has already happened.
The photo alone is not enough as the high speed rail project in California has managed to erect some large concrete pillars for a few billion dollars.
https://preview.redd.it/xg2zucth1v6g1.png?width=836&format=png&auto=webp&s=230b76804d8accacc3d7c8b46ff9289bda270588
But often their projects are debt traps with no economic justification, so it’s not always good in the result.
Debt traps with no economic justification sound like highways to me.
Word.
The Chinese are relatively good about allowing countries to basically “pay what they can” for these projects. The main value to them is the access to materials and improved relations. Both of those would be endangered by worrying about returning the debt as soon as possible.
https://rhg.com/research/new-data-on-the-debt-trap-question/
I don't care about economic justification and debt. that shits not real. railroads are real.
Tell that to Argentina
The country bankrupted by IMF loans backed by the US. Yeah those were a wayyyyyyy worse deal than what China is doing currently.
Now look into the strings attached to IMF loans.
i used to be concerned about these chinese debt trap infrastructure projects in africa,
until i realize this is a practice that every rich country did to them and the rest of the underdeveloped world
at least the chinese didnt butcher any african person like cattle animals for not fulfilling their quotas or daring to say "no"
I think that's pretty much the point of them. It's China spending massive amounts of money as "goodwill" to a country, to hopefully improve soft power in that country to China.
Source? Besides your racist uncle on Facebook, that is.
Putting "Chinese-built" in the post title... Can't wait to see the comments.
This is like one of those sci-fi establishing shots of a megastructure but without a reference point until they throw in something that we know is big, so the megastructure must be hella big
Idk if like this. Its either they build over or through it. This still lets the wildlife cross without risking their lives
maybe we just need the Chinese to build our railways again.
What a great idea that allows nature and the modern world to meld together is a way that lets both continue to thrive
Don't want to spoil your fun, but this is just a bridge between two hills, built for practical reasons, not for wildlife preservation. The rail will be level again once that's feasible.
Lame. There's no reason to change it, this is great
This is really cool. I wonder if the animals take advantage of the shade it provides?
I remember when this was first suggested, people did try hard to push back against it. The Kenyan government really isn’t safeguarding the country and its resources the way they need to be.
The last time my mum was there, I believe she said she saw large scale harvesting of soil, to be transferred to China (Kenyan soil is obviously very rich). It’s like they’ll sell anything they can get a price for, with no regard for its future impact on the country. Especially considering most of that money is probably making its way into the personal coffers of the politicians themselves. It’s infuriating.
Was in Kenya...the Kenyas are furious that their government is giving away its country. China builds all their infrastructure for pennies, BUT they get to keep all the mineral rights - trillions of dollars under the ground.
The corruption in these east African countries would make the trump administration look honest
https://preview.redd.it/6dx4taujip6g1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68e3acb56e809b5690f59ed763124016d1adad2a
This sounds exactly like the arguments made by the US-run bot farm that was discovered on Twitter.
Why is it so hard to believe that African people would want autonomy over their own land. This group is so fucking gross sometimes
Seriously defending bots? Ok fed.
I mentioned this in another comment, but these corrupt politicians are literally selling the soil. Because the soil is such a rich resource, they’re allowing it to be plundered in high volume, and transported away to China while they line their pockets. And that’s the tip of the iceberg. It’s foul.
Trains are not cars.
Can anyone tell me why this is made of a ton of cement instead of a bunch of bolted together steel?
I'm all for trains but cement isn't super great for the environment.
probably maintenance and cost.
Running steel mill is also not super environmental friendly btw.
Maybe it’s crossing a river floodplain.
We have those in Canada where I live. They have cement at the bottom.
Having a much smaller land footprint like this which also allows animals to pass under sounds pretty environmental to me. Much more so than being trapped on either side or being squashed by cars like on highways. Also trains are orders of magnitude more efficient and environmentally friendly than cars, and this is train infructure, so I think this is a huge win for the environment.
Did I give you the impression I was pro car?
The amount of carbon it would take to produce an equivalent amount of steel far exceeds the amount of carbon from producing concrete. Mining ore, refining, and smelting are incredibly energy intensive and most often rely on coal to get the furnaces hot enough.
Neo colonialism is never ok....
Fick cars, but fuck the chinese too.
*The country, not the people.
Me when my countries ruling class has successfully convinced me to hate any non-aligned country.
You can't separate the country from its people, we like this system, we try to improve our country
Ah yes, a train built by racists who ignored environmental protestors and desecrated a national park to cause job displacements to move an uneconomical amount of cargo and passengers leading to unsustainable debt repayments so the train to nowhere can be traded for the port of Mombasa.
Something something something the US and west are worse.
Something something something the ends justify the means.
It’s a pretty cool photo though.
Kenya literally had a dictator propped up by the us and the west, this pales in comparison
Me when I make shit up. I know you thought you were cooking but this is cringy af. You're trying too hard when everyone can tell you have no idea what you're talking about.
👏🏾
I feel like this sub is being taken over by tankies. No analysis beyond "US=bad", no nuance.
I think railway projects are always great but still want to point out what a shitty propaganda history op has.
The Chinese part was very important.