Bro has enough money for entire teams of writers to help him through his process. He can hire consultants to help him work through plot holes and rework items that need to be rewritten.
He is too proud for that. Even if he does finish 1 of the 2 remaining books, I think his days being able to write a competent book are well over. I wouldn't expect anything of quality.
My general feeling with book series is that the readers are making installment payments on a story that they expect will be concluded one day. Now stuff happens and there’s no guarantee that the story will get finished, but the author does owe a completed story to the readers. Getting cranking that the people who have paid you millions of dollars want to get the rest of what they have started paying for is just childish.
I got these books as a compendium in 2013 Christmas. Three summers in a row I read the entire series all the way through, thinking "surely it will come out this year". Then season 5 was... season 5, but six kind of renewed my hopes. Then 7 and 8 dropped and killed all my desire. I don't want to watch House, or Egg. I want to know how the ducking story that I deeply invested in is supposed to end. I want a version where my long held theory (that Bran was endgame) being right doesn't turn to ash in my mouth.
I haven’t played Elden Ring but I’m puzzled about the writing aspect as my understanding is it doesn’t really have a straightforward coherent clear plot? It’s not like, say, Red Dead Redemption with an obvious story and lots of cut scenes and dialogue?
That’s really useful! Although I love one of the sentences from that post which quotes an article:
In this interview with Edge Magazine, Miyazaki states that "Mr Martin respected the fact that we didn't want him to write the game's story or the in-game text. Because we felt like that would actually limit his creative output..."
More like they didn’t want him to write it because they were aiming to release the game this side of the PS8
My take (that I'm sure will get downvoted) as someone that played the game and got 100% achievements, plus the DLC, but had it as my first FromSoft experience - there is no story. There is an introduction giving you some brief lore of the world, and then there's nothing. Some of the bosses have short cutscene introductions where they say one or two things; most don't. Some of the churches you rest at let you talk to your companion; most don't. If you do things slightly out of order, people that are lore givers for a questline aren't there anymore since you progressed their thing without ever talking to them.
In order to get the "story" you have to read every item description, basically. That's where the information is. If you just play the game like you would a normal game (like I did, going from dungeon to dungeon) the story is basically...the world sucks because someone killed their relative a long time ago, now everyone reincarnates or something? And you reincarnated or something but don't remember it? But you're a special reincarnator that can become the new elden lord if you kill everyone who was related to the old king who died, who's also a god, and who also i think was the one that killed themselves through their child that's also them or something.
Idk - it's a great game for art/atmosphere/challenge/enemy design, but it isn't a great game for story.
I don't believe GRRM did a single solitary second of actual-typing-words-on-keyboard writing for Elden Ring, ever. He maybe sat in on a few brainstorming sessions and cashed the check for using his name in the marketing.
I just think it’s spitting in the face of your fans to write 5 books of 7 and then give up. I will argue with anyone who thinks he is still committed to writing those last 2 books.
Without the fans who gobbled up the first 5 books there wouldn’t have been a tv series.
George R R Martin has forgotten where he came from.
GRRM to Dan Simmons in 1981: "If I were really cynical I would start some medieval sword and sorcery thing, say it's a trilogy, then keep writing it for the rest of my life."
He sold out and can't quietly kick back and enjoy his fame and fortune because he's shitting on the folks that made him and he deserves for his joy to turn to ash in his mouth.
He's become an ASOIAF character. Might be the perfect ending to his tale.
If he'd just give it up to another writer and help them stay on track then people would accept it. Instead he's got too much pride to do that, he'd rather just live until he dies pretending that he's still working on it.
The dude clearly has writer's block. Honestly, I would rather have zero canon finale and allow me use my imagination to come up with my own finale in my head as opposed to him pushing out a crappy finale just to appease fans, kind of like what D&D did with seasons 7 and 8. In my opinion, it would be the lesser of two evils.
You are right. I edited my comment from "rushing" to "pushing" since that reflects the situation better. Even though the dude has had nearly 15 years to come up with something good, in his mind his two options are "do nothing" or "push out an inferior product." I have to at least give him credit for not choosing the latter option.
I don't, he's just doing the perfectionist trap of acting like nothing is better than something he isn't fully perfect with.
If he could get away with that in the past then none of the books would have been released. In the past the publishers could tell him to get off his ass and do it, now they don't have that power anymore.
Deadlines aren't always bad, they can be a useful motivator.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you can’t deny Sanderson is good at pumping out decent book. Sanderson is just as good if not better than GRRM IMO. Might just need another editor to insert the smut and violence once Sanderson’s done.
Haha yeah sorry I was a bit flippant there. He writes good books but it's a different style for sure. Also think his series has dimmed a fair bit from a bright opening.
I’m convinced this is the reason. D & W fell on the sword for the ending (deservedly so), but I’d be willing to be what he had written and shown them was very close to what we got on screen.
I hate this argument. The ending was dogshit as well. If you boil it down it’s the most ‘Starks win and everything is good’ ending possible. Sansa is kween, Jon is at the wall chillin’, Bran is godking, Arya is the savior of the world, Dany is dead, Jamie’s redemption meant nothing, etc…
I think Danny and Bran’s arc are what’s meant to happen in the books. I don’t think the same holds true for the other character plot lines. People shit so hard on Bran sitting the iron throne but I think it would have been a lot more drawn out and made a lot more sense over the course of the books.
Bran sitting on the Iron Throne at the end makes no sense at all regardless of how gurm writes it.
His story is completely unrelated to the Iron Throne, he's becoming a tree-god. Gurm also likes to talk about the consequences of rule (insert Aragorn's economic policies here) and Bran being on the throne is a recipe for disaster.
The natural conclusion should be the destruction of the institution of the Iron Throne. After the war with the Others, the continent is not going to be at its most fertile and with population cut by lots it'd only make sense for the throne to become a council, a place for peaceful negotiations.
Anything but it getting burned by Drogon and replaced by a wheelchair (which lol where the fuck did he get that)
It's a bad plot even if it was what he's always intended. A quasi-immortal godking who has perfect surveillance on everyone is a total nightmare.
Even if he's perfectly benevolent it's still a nightmare, it takes away all agency any people living there have. They can't learn from their mistakes or grow into something greater than Branbot wants.
It's so easy to identify show-only fans. The full quote is "WHEN YOU PLAY THE GAME OF THRONES, you win or you die, there is no middle ground." I hate that HBO took the 'win or die' crap and made it into a funny little slogan.
The Stark children quite deliberately did not play the 'game'. Maybe one can argue Sansa will be a player but that's still unknown.
Bran is browsing/becoming wikipedia while Arya's plot isn't even in Westeros anymore.
Jon is literally dead in the books. He is bound by his oath to the Night's Watch and oaths actually matter to him. Him falling in love with Dany, then being icky because she is tangentially related to him (which is fucking normal), and then killing her while Drogon burns the throne. lol
The whole point of the books is that the game itself is flawed, it's wrong, it is evil. Uniting against the common enemy is what humanity has to do to survive, not play stupid throne games.
Ned was part of the game but didn't know how to play. He got outplayed at every turn because of that. Tywin played it well but didn't foresee Tyrion's trial by combat and Jamie freeing him and revealing the Tysha thing which led to his death.
That makes sense if you keep fAegon in the story. Cersei's reign ends when fAegon arrives with the Golden Company, he takes over King's Landing and is hailed a savior of Westeros. Meanwhile Dany is barely done fucking around in Essos... and when she comes back to retake the throne her ancestors built, she is met not just with fAegon on the throne beloved by the populace but also Jon who turns out to also be before her in line.
Gotta remember Dany is going to be at best 16-18 when her assault of King's Landing happens. Jorah, Miss Sunday, Grey Worm, Barristan will die one by one, often due to her own decisions and the cunning of her enemies for which she is not ready, and... yeah that makes sense.
i Mean not really, it wouldn't have been as horrific but still it would've been really bad. Dany was never "crazy and evil" she wold never burn down king's landing, the north being an independent kingdom while bran is king is laughable and bran being king itself just seems like the writer making fun of you
Speak for yourself. Dany burning the innocent people of Kingslanding is completely contrary to her character.
If that had happened I would have hated it.
The worst part is that there are elements of an ending I could see myself enjoying there. I don't hate that Jaime and Brienne got together or that Jaime went back to Cersei in the end, for example-- I hate that he didn't go back to KL to kill her, thereby killing the king for the good of the realm once again and fulfilling the valonqar prophecy all in one nice little package. Maybe I'm huffing the copium too hard but it's like the bones of a good ending are in there, but they completely missed the mark on giving people the correct motivations and so much had to get rushed through. The earliest seasons were so much slower paced, but that was to their benefit because we actually spent more time exploring the characters' feelings and motivations and schemes, instead of frantically rushing from one big battle scene to the next.
To be honest, the core plot as such could work if it was well written, eg Daenerys going insane over a period of time, become more and more a dragon-tyrant to the point where you wonder if you were wrong to support her to defeat the lannisters... Jon alienating and eventually having to kill her to save the realm... I’m quite sure that GRRM would’ve been able to finish the same core plot in a way that still would’ve been a great ending to the series. It’s just that d&d’s writing skills didn’t go beyond a mediocre fanfic based on GRRM’s napkin notes.
They probably hit the key points but their execution was horrendous once they ran out of Martin's writing to lean on. You can see the bones of what the story was supposed to be and it makes sense for the universe.
No way, he just doesnt write anymore at all. He started with 400 pages from ADWD, then did a bug push of writing in 2016, and another push of writing during covid to get to 1100 pages. Hes been there ever since.
I think Martin’s problems start way before the plot complexity. After GoT season 1 aired, he gave an interview where he expressed his concern about what happened to Marillion (I think) on the show and what he considered the insurmountable complications it caused for future seasons. As it turned out, those complications were predictably resolved by simply deleting the character, and he was not missed at all. Marillion was tertiary enough that nothing he did in the book even needed to be accompany another character. But Martin really seemed to think the show runners had written themselves into a pickle. I imagine the vast tapestry of Pods, Dickons and Herreys provide all the overwhelming pressure he needs to put off another day’s writing.
Well here it was "madness suicide", but the Lords weren't having it and and refused to leave Lf alone with Sansa so he could manipulate her witness testimony, even though he had plenty time for that while they were in fact alone after the murder.
Problem is they teleported right from "your sistah" into the court room, like in Inception or 6th Sense.
So yeah not the airtightest bit in the show.
I personally think the creator of berserk Kentaro Miura and George went through the same thing the popularity of their works caused them to have an unrealistic standard of perfection leading the works themselves to never be completed as they never view it as good enough
In George’s case game of thrones season 8 and house of the dragon season 2 probably made it much worse
I'd say more that he was actually dedicated to writing and in particular to writing ASOIAF. Every other project he's written he has dropped due getting some new shiny idea/getting bored with the previous one or in the case of the sequel to his Tuff book, he jumped to Hollywood to actually make money. George doesn't have an issue of talent, it's discipline.
I recall something about 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
Also he was previously a hollywood writer before ASoIaF and, funnily enough, wanted to write it so he wouldn't have to worry about adapting it to TV/movies.
“It wasn't easy for me. I didn't want to give away my books. It's not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and 'hold the door,' and Stannis's decision to burn his daughter. We didn't get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings." It won’t be against the Boltons. In the books, that’s character-wise and geographically impossible. But it’s GRRM’s idea eventually — possibly much later — and likely tied to the Long Night.
Shit, I never read that one. So "geographically and character wise impossible " makes me think my old theory that he actually takes Winterfell is accurate.
It depends on what “same” means. Burning his daughter because the weather is bad south of the Wall is very different from sacrificing her at the Wall, against the Others, because he truly believes he’s Azor Ahai and that fulfilling the prophecy will save the Seven Kingdoms from the Long Night. The motivation changes the entire meaning of his arc.
Shit you think that’s bad, the 2024 ASOIAF calendar was illustrated by Justin Sweet in direct collaboration with GRRM and the cover depicts two people that are clearly Rhaegar and Lyanna hanging out on a giant tree that is not a weirwood but still has a face carved on it
Seriously go look it up. I mean what else can that be, other than R+L=J with a secret weirwood wedding on the Isle of Faces? The man’s not even pretending it’s a secret anymore
I mean, R+L=J is basically an open secret everyone’s accepted by now. But teasing Jaime knighting Brienne feels ill-timed if he intends to finish , especially when we’re still not supposed to know if he even survives Stoneheart.
I'm not saying his decisions are respectable, but the man is clearly bored of writing this, doesn't want to finish, and has enough money to make that choice. It's healthier just to let it go at this point as a reader.
The issue being he uses the fans goodwill over ASOIAF to peddle other projects. If he just was like “fuck the fans I’m not finishing the series I’m bored with Westeros” most people would shut up and move on. But then he couldn’t continue the pretext of working on them to hype stuff.
I think this makes it worse. Like, look, I'm an old fan, was a fan before there were even rumours of a TV show. And I got tired of waiting years ago. My enthusiasm has dried up to the point I'm just checking a few subs like this one while I'm doomscrolling.
I don't care anymore.
I used to wait year after year for updates, until I realised that he doesn't care either. If he finishes Winds, fine, if he doesn't - also fine. I'm not even sure I'd buy the book or just will pirate it at this point. And regardless, he's never finishing the last book, so it's all moot.
At this point I’m going to live my life under the assumption that’s he’s never going to finish them and if somehow he does, then I will be extremely happy.
He likely overestimated himself. He’s not writing at his 1990s pace anymore, but he keeps measuring his progress as if he is. The first three books were written between 1991 and 2000 under very different conditions, yet he seems to be projecting timelines based on that same level of productivity.
Not since the original publication, but been here since ’08. At this point it’s basically a chronic mental condition I keep feeding out of spite and misplaced hope.
Martin has lost interest after D&D’s reviled final season flopped. He was probably headed there, since he said he gave them the major beats of how it ends. But since it was so hated, he thinks the problem is the ending but it was because it told to us instead of shown.
Like we see Dany snap at the tolling of the bells, but we don’t know why she snapped. In written form just something like, “She heard these bells, she learned in her talks with Viserys that the city was surrendering. Her teeth clenched, her hands started shaking as she rode on Drogon. They were supposed to see her as the liberator, instead they saw her as a conqueror? Well, she will show them what a conqueror does.”
That shows her breaking, not out of the blue, not due to the plot demanded she break, but because of something we hear her thoughts. Something I came up with in five minutes, but I’m sure a writer like Martin could figure out something more interesting.
Has no idea how to end the series in two books without a time skip (a plot device he says he hates in other works. Like Dany is still in the Dothraki Sea, Bran is with the Three-Eyed Raven beyond The Wall, Arya is in training with the Faceless Men, Jon is dead at the Wall, Sansa is in the Vale, etc. Which leads to…
The Gordian knot has grown into an even more convoluted problem since he was headed in the same direction as the series that he can’t slice in half since he hates that trope as well. How can you keep track of all those plot lines, locations, characters all at the same time? Game of Thrones had eight POV characters (not including Will), Dance with Dragons has exploded that to 16 (not including Varamyr Sixskins in the Prologue, and Kevan Lannister in the Epilogue.) and that’s not including minor characters who have to move forward as much as the major ones.
Honestly i dont think he wants to finish the books. At the end of the day. What's the point. He still has a dream of spring or whatever the fuck its gonna be called to do, do you honestly thinks he cares enough to even get around to that...ever.
Genuinely believe that, between 2013 and 2020, he has had to completely overhaul the story at least once, maybe twice. He may have done it again since then which, on top of his challenges during covid lockdown, has really hampered him. Its also why he suddenly starts saying that side projects matter because he bashed his head against the wall for almost 10 years straight and he wasn't able to reach a point of completion.
Now we're on year 14 almost 15 since the release of Dance and he's still stumped about the last quarter to a third of the book. We will get winds, I do believe that, but its going to be easily the densest and most complex book yet. He's got a lot of ground to cover for a series that's supposed to end in two books, including Winds, and I think its resulted in him trying to reinvent multiple wheels to make all the pieces fit, with no success.
1) He is scared shitless. The TV show came out, he got more attention than ever. Now he is paralyzed with fear, he feels like everyones eyes are on him and that everyone will hate him if he gets it wrong.
2) He made his money, no longer cares about writing enough to suffer through the pain of re-writing.
It's complicated for sure, but 10-15 years is more than enough time to overcome that.
I don't understand why he does not release whatever's written with another title, and continue working on Winds after that. He has enough material for an entire book (1100-1200). While he does not owe us an end to the entire series, he should provide us some resolution to Dance (which is an unfinished story). There are arcs that were started in the year 2000 that are still dangling and unresolved.
Because the storylines are tightly interconnected.
George has said that he finished some POVs long ago, only to later realize they contradicted developments in other, later storylines. He then had to go back and rewrite or even discard completed chapters.
If he were to publish part of the material now under a different title, it would lock those events in place. He would lose the ability to adjust them to fit the rest of the narrative as it evolves.
I feel like at this point, with so much material written, he would need to employ a staff of people to keep track of the lore and storylines. Who is where, what they're doing, etc. There's always ubernerds out there who will end up gobbling up the material and knowing it better than the person who wrote the damn thing.
He does have long-time collaborators like Elio García and Linda Antonsson who help with world-building and lore reference books. But the main story seems too personal for him to let others touch in any meaningful way.
It was apparently Ty's (or maybe his writing partner for the Expanse, Daniel Abraham) idea to split Feast and Dance geographically.
There's also a conspiracy theory that Ty took the master document that he made for George with him when he left, but I am not sure I believe that. In any case
It sucks and he keeps rewriting it to make it work but his bean pole architecture he's gardening around no longer fits the story he's grown. Now he's too long in the tooth to change it completely.
True. At some point he should probably just accept that the ending won’t be as tightly constructed as the first three books. Better to finish the story than endlessly polish it, imperfections are inevitable.
I love the Reddit commenters who want the TV show remade so it can not deviate from 'the books'. The book series has not had a new book since 2011 and Jon Snow is still dead in the books. At least the TV show has an ending, however imperfect and rushed it was.
Does anyone care anymore? Honestly even if it was released tomorrow it's been so long that I don't think I'd even be excited for it anymore. I started reading the books more than 10 years ago when I was about 14. I'm nearing 30 and the damn book is still not out.. Am I supposed to remember anything from the previous books? Because I don't remember shit. I probably just have a shit memory but I'm sure I'm not the only one. If The Winds of Winter was released tomorrow I'd have to read all the previous books first to remember what the fuck happened before even picking it up.
With the delays to the other books, for a while it ramped our excitement up...until it became increasingly clear that unless he was writing both books simultaneously, there was every reason to believe he wouldnt live long enough to deliver both of them. Im not trying to hurt the man's feelings or wish it upon him, but were all just looking at the facts. Now even if he finished and publishes Winds of Winter, theres no way we get the last book. Why would I waste my time and energy and money on a book I know wont wrap up the story, but will be the last book in the series? Moreso, why would I give any of his other IP my time? HotD season one wasnt bad. It has some cool scenes, some great acting, etc. But then I heard aboht season 2 before I watched it and I haven't any interest in watching it, nor season 3.
And Kot7K looks good, AND like its damn close to the story. Like, really close. Several characters look about as accurate as you can get. But part of me doesn't want to give HBO or GrrM my view, out of spite.
Why the hell doesn’t he want to write it? It’s his magnum opus and he still has not one but two!!!! books to go. I understand some years in between but this shit is ridiculous. Stop with the procrastination. Stop with your side projects and give your paying customers what they want at this point. We’ll all be there the day it releases in make it a best seller in a day…
Yeah, that’s the baffling part — he’s openly unhappy with HBO, especially HOTD S2, yet he’s still deeply involved with them instead of just focus on his books.
I love how even this massive timeline just skips 3 years between 2012 and 2015. Meanwhile, if you predicted that the book would be published in 2015 back in the day, you’d be called a pessimistic doomed for thinking it would take that long. And that was a DECADE ago.
It’s not about the book, it’s a metaphor. You’re supposed to live through the long night. It’s the journey that counts, not the destination. Seven hells, we’re the idiots.
The show ending was definitely what he planned. After the backlash he changed his plans. Which is why he can't finish the books. There are too many arcs and they can't be finished in just 2 books
There’s really no point in using the show’s ending to determine George’s plans for the books, because the underlying context is completely different.
In the books, the Three-Eyed Crow is Brynden Rivers, also known as Bloodraven, not a neutral mystic, but a former Hand of the King and spymaster who ruled through surveillance, manipulation, and ruthless political control. He’s a morally grey kinslayer with motives and long-term plans we still don’t fully understand.
That matters, because Bran’s training under him isn’t just about fighting the Others. It’s the inheritance of a worldview where knowledge is power and foresight is control. The books even hint at figures like Euron as potentially fallen or corrupted counterparts tied to similar greenseer knowledge, suggesting a much larger and darker framework surrounding Bran’s arc.
The show stripped all of this out. Bloodraven becomes a generic old tree man, the political and moral implications disappear entirely, and once that context is gone, whether Bran becomes king is basically meaningless.I doubt George is bothered by it.
The show aired its Kingsmoot where Euron Greyjoy basically wins by literally bragging about his big cock. Just days later, George released The Forsaken, which portrays him as a deeply disturbing, prophetic, almost eldritch figure tied to blood magic, visions, and apocalyptic imagery through Aeron’s psychological torment. Many readers took this as a pretty clear expression of his dissatisfaction with the show.
funny thought I just had would be if the fans starting a class action lawsuit for not fininshing the last 2 books. I dont expect it to happen but the thought amuses me.
On Dec 2023 he told he have around 1,1k pages written. Almost year later he have the same number of pages written.
Even if you write one page per day (or two on Monday with free Sunday) there should be at least 300 new pages.
And for the love of Cthulhu he had more than enough time to finish. I am afraid that is not time (clearly) lacking.
But he overblown number of characters, finals of TV series supposedly written based on his advice what will happen had huge backlash.
With the remnants of respect I still have, he screw up.
It went to long. I (and many others) don't care anymore. TV ending was bad but at least it was some ending.
I have to much series to watch, to much new and old books to read to take care of one old guy who can't finish his book.
Even if this book would came tomorrow I would only read the synopsis.
To be fair, during and after COVID he lost several close friends and openly talked about how hard that period was on him mentally. That doesn’t excuse a 15-year delay, but that particular year was clearly a dark one for George.
Yea. I don't feel bad at all about how salty he is about fans being upset. Bros been stalling for damn near half my life.
Who could possibly imagine we'd want to know the end of the story he decided to write? I guess we are asking for too much.
The end of a story we were promised when we purchased and spent time consuming the beginning…
Are you implying that normal people can be subjected to being criticized for not finishing the job they said they would finish? The audacity!!!
Criticized in a matter of fact way - like here, he had set this goal and is now failing to meet it. Which is trivially true.
You got some nerve!!
Last time dude published a book I had just finished high school. And now my bones hurt when it’s cold.
My bone hurts when it's warm...
My bones just hurt
Winter is coming
Bro has enough money for entire teams of writers to help him through his process. He can hire consultants to help him work through plot holes and rework items that need to be rewritten.
He has no excuse, he just doesn't care.
He is too proud for that. Even if he does finish 1 of the 2 remaining books, I think his days being able to write a competent book are well over. I wouldn't expect anything of quality.
Illyo and Lynda are already his plot hole watchers
My general feeling with book series is that the readers are making installment payments on a story that they expect will be concluded one day. Now stuff happens and there’s no guarantee that the story will get finished, but the author does owe a completed story to the readers. Getting cranking that the people who have paid you millions of dollars want to get the rest of what they have started paying for is just childish.
Yeah, he cannot complain tbh.
I've been reading these since the millennium flipped, so we crossed halfway quite a while ago.
I got these books as a compendium in 2013 Christmas. Three summers in a row I read the entire series all the way through, thinking "surely it will come out this year". Then season 5 was... season 5, but six kind of renewed my hopes. Then 7 and 8 dropped and killed all my desire. I don't want to watch House, or Egg. I want to know how the ducking story that I deeply invested in is supposed to end. I want a version where my long held theory (that Bran was endgame) being right doesn't turn to ash in my mouth.
So you're 30?
27.
Give me something for the pain and let me die
Here’s some milk of the poppy.
🥛 💦
Edit: why did I post this and why are you perverts upvoting it
HBO paid him a kings bounty to never finish the books and give him all the prequels he wants
Supported by FromSoftware
He’s written 14 Winds chapters and they’re all Arianne travelling to Storms End
Who is even Arianne? It's been so long since I read the books
Doran Martell's oldest daughter. She was the one who seduced Oakheart, the Kingsguard who Hotah cut down.
You just added three other characters I don’t remember describing another one I forget
welcome to Westeros
That's literally the experience of reading Feast/Dance.
You make me feel less alone.
I read the books 10 years ago, I don't remember all of these characters.
Who tf is Hotah
The big scary bodyguard of Doran Martell
Gotta be honest I can’t remember any of this shit. It’s been so long.
Hey now, don’t forget the Feathers flashback chapters. We just need to learn how he learnt ravencraft.
2017 : collaborated with Fromsoft to co-write Elden Ring(2022)
Yeah I’m glad he did. It’s an incredible game and if we got anything good from his procrastination it was Elden Ring.
I haven’t played Elden Ring but I’m puzzled about the writing aspect as my understanding is it doesn’t really have a straightforward coherent clear plot? It’s not like, say, Red Dead Redemption with an obvious story and lots of cut scenes and dialogue?
From what I’ve read GRRM provided the mythology for the story and the game company came up with the actual plot
good comment with some links to articles detailing his involvement.
That’s really useful! Although I love one of the sentences from that post which quotes an article:
In this interview with Edge Magazine, Miyazaki states that "Mr Martin respected the fact that we didn't want him to write the game's story or the in-game text. Because we felt like that would actually limit his creative output..."
More like they didn’t want him to write it because they were aiming to release the game this side of the PS8
My take (that I'm sure will get downvoted) as someone that played the game and got 100% achievements, plus the DLC, but had it as my first FromSoft experience - there is no story. There is an introduction giving you some brief lore of the world, and then there's nothing. Some of the bosses have short cutscene introductions where they say one or two things; most don't. Some of the churches you rest at let you talk to your companion; most don't. If you do things slightly out of order, people that are lore givers for a questline aren't there anymore since you progressed their thing without ever talking to them.
In order to get the "story" you have to read every item description, basically. That's where the information is. If you just play the game like you would a normal game (like I did, going from dungeon to dungeon) the story is basically...the world sucks because someone killed their relative a long time ago, now everyone reincarnates or something? And you reincarnated or something but don't remember it? But you're a special reincarnator that can become the new elden lord if you kill everyone who was related to the old king who died, who's also a god, and who also i think was the one that killed themselves through their child that's also them or something.
Idk - it's a great game for art/atmosphere/challenge/enemy design, but it isn't a great game for story.
I don't believe GRRM did a single solitary second of actual-typing-words-on-keyboard writing for Elden Ring, ever. He maybe sat in on a few brainstorming sessions and cashed the check for using his name in the marketing.
I just think it’s spitting in the face of your fans to write 5 books of 7 and then give up. I will argue with anyone who thinks he is still committed to writing those last 2 books.
Without the fans who gobbled up the first 5 books there wouldn’t have been a tv series.
George R R Martin has forgotten where he came from.
The Dan Simmons quote was real.
We're seeing it in action today.
He sold out and can't quietly kick back and enjoy his fame and fortune because he's shitting on the folks that made him and he deserves for his joy to turn to ash in his mouth.
He's become an ASOIAF character. Might be the perfect ending to his tale.
If he'd just give it up to another writer and help them stay on track then people would accept it. Instead he's got too much pride to do that, he'd rather just live until he dies pretending that he's still working on it.
He’s a bit of a dick to his fans imo.
The dude clearly has writer's block. Honestly, I would rather have zero canon finale and allow me use my imagination to come up with my own finale in my head as opposed to him pushing out a crappy finale just to appease fans, kind of like what D&D did with seasons 7 and 8. In my opinion, it would be the lesser of two evils.
15 years isn’t him rushing, that’s the issue.
You are right. I edited my comment from "rushing" to "pushing" since that reflects the situation better. Even though the dude has had nearly 15 years to come up with something good, in his mind his two options are "do nothing" or "push out an inferior product." I have to at least give him credit for not choosing the latter option.
I don't, he's just doing the perfectionist trap of acting like nothing is better than something he isn't fully perfect with.
If he could get away with that in the past then none of the books would have been released. In the past the publishers could tell him to get off his ass and do it, now they don't have that power anymore.
Deadlines aren't always bad, they can be a useful motivator.
Could give the series to Sanderson to finish, he’ll have it done in a weekend.
But it would suck
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you can’t deny Sanderson is good at pumping out decent book. Sanderson is just as good if not better than GRRM IMO. Might just need another editor to insert the smut and violence once Sanderson’s done.
Haha yeah sorry I was a bit flippant there. He writes good books but it's a different style for sure. Also think his series has dimmed a fair bit from a bright opening.
he def rewrote everything from 0 after the GOT finale
I’m convinced this is the reason. D & W fell on the sword for the ending (deservedly so), but I’d be willing to be what he had written and shown them was very close to what we got on screen.
I could be completely wrong though.
What sucks is it’s not the ending we hated, it’s the way it ended we hated.
I hate this argument. The ending was dogshit as well. If you boil it down it’s the most ‘Starks win and everything is good’ ending possible. Sansa is kween, Jon is at the wall chillin’, Bran is godking, Arya is the savior of the world, Dany is dead, Jamie’s redemption meant nothing, etc…
I think Danny and Bran’s arc are what’s meant to happen in the books. I don’t think the same holds true for the other character plot lines. People shit so hard on Bran sitting the iron throne but I think it would have been a lot more drawn out and made a lot more sense over the course of the books.
Bran sitting on the Iron Throne at the end makes no sense at all regardless of how gurm writes it.
His story is completely unrelated to the Iron Throne, he's becoming a tree-god. Gurm also likes to talk about the consequences of rule (insert Aragorn's economic policies here) and Bran being on the throne is a recipe for disaster.
The natural conclusion should be the destruction of the institution of the Iron Throne. After the war with the Others, the continent is not going to be at its most fertile and with population cut by lots it'd only make sense for the throne to become a council, a place for peaceful negotiations.
Anything but it getting burned by Drogon and replaced by a wheelchair (which lol where the fuck did he get that)
What's this about Aragorn economic policies
Grrm quote about how Tolkien wasn't interested in the nitty gritty of rule basically.
It comes off as a bit rude even though he didn't mean it that way since he's a Tolkien fan like everyone else. Even then it's still not great IMO.
It's a bad plot even if it was what he's always intended. A quasi-immortal godking who has perfect surveillance on everyone is a total nightmare.
Even if he's perfectly benevolent it's still a nightmare, it takes away all agency any people living there have. They can't learn from their mistakes or grow into something greater than Branbot wants.
Cersei did say "You win or you die" sooo
You're just listing all the Starks that survived lol
It's so easy to identify show-only fans. The full quote is "WHEN YOU PLAY THE GAME OF THRONES, you win or you die, there is no middle ground." I hate that HBO took the 'win or die' crap and made it into a funny little slogan.
The Stark children quite deliberately did not play the 'game'. Maybe one can argue Sansa will be a player but that's still unknown.
Bran is browsing/becoming wikipedia while Arya's plot isn't even in Westeros anymore.
Jon is literally dead in the books. He is bound by his oath to the Night's Watch and oaths actually matter to him. Him falling in love with Dany, then being icky because she is tangentially related to him (which is fucking normal), and then killing her while Drogon burns the throne. lol
The whole point of the books is that the game itself is flawed, it's wrong, it is evil. Uniting against the common enemy is what humanity has to do to survive, not play stupid throne games.
Ned was part of the game but didn't know how to play. He got outplayed at every turn because of that. Tywin played it well but didn't foresee Tyrion's trial by combat and Jamie freeing him and revealing the Tysha thing which led to his death.
That’s very fair, I was primarily referring to Danny going mad and burning down kings landing
That makes sense if you keep fAegon in the story. Cersei's reign ends when fAegon arrives with the Golden Company, he takes over King's Landing and is hailed a savior of Westeros. Meanwhile Dany is barely done fucking around in Essos... and when she comes back to retake the throne her ancestors built, she is met not just with fAegon on the throne beloved by the populace but also Jon who turns out to also be before her in line.
Gotta remember Dany is going to be at best 16-18 when her assault of King's Landing happens. Jorah, Miss Sunday, Grey Worm, Barristan will die one by one, often due to her own decisions and the cunning of her enemies for which she is not ready, and... yeah that makes sense.
i Mean not really, it wouldn't have been as horrific but still it would've been really bad. Dany was never "crazy and evil" she wold never burn down king's landing, the north being an independent kingdom while bran is king is laughable and bran being king itself just seems like the writer making fun of you
Speak for yourself. Dany burning the innocent people of Kingslanding is completely contrary to her character. If that had happened I would have hated it.
The worst part is that there are elements of an ending I could see myself enjoying there. I don't hate that Jaime and Brienne got together or that Jaime went back to Cersei in the end, for example-- I hate that he didn't go back to KL to kill her, thereby killing the king for the good of the realm once again and fulfilling the valonqar prophecy all in one nice little package. Maybe I'm huffing the copium too hard but it's like the bones of a good ending are in there, but they completely missed the mark on giving people the correct motivations and so much had to get rushed through. The earliest seasons were so much slower paced, but that was to their benefit because we actually spent more time exploring the characters' feelings and motivations and schemes, instead of frantically rushing from one big battle scene to the next.
Totally agree
To be honest, the core plot as such could work if it was well written, eg Daenerys going insane over a period of time, become more and more a dragon-tyrant to the point where you wonder if you were wrong to support her to defeat the lannisters... Jon alienating and eventually having to kill her to save the realm... I’m quite sure that GRRM would’ve been able to finish the same core plot in a way that still would’ve been a great ending to the series. It’s just that d&d’s writing skills didn’t go beyond a mediocre fanfic based on GRRM’s napkin notes.
They probably hit the key points but their execution was horrendous once they ran out of Martin's writing to lean on. You can see the bones of what the story was supposed to be and it makes sense for the universe.
No way, he just doesnt write anymore at all. He started with 400 pages from ADWD, then did a bug push of writing in 2016, and another push of writing during covid to get to 1100 pages. Hes been there ever since.
https://preview.redd.it/b3ky5b588m9g1.png?width=498&format=png&auto=webp&s=bf0657e2452184888632b862706c64b5aff01129
We ain't getting shit
He just needs to admit defeat and bring in a co-writer. He can still control everything, but he can at least get the damn thing done.
I know he doesn’t want anyone else to finish it off when he passes.. but it’s going to happen so he may as well try to control it as much as he can.
He overdid the complexity of his plot. Honestly he should just be humble and call in some backup. A dragon like this cannot be slain by one's self.
I think Martin’s problems start way before the plot complexity. After GoT season 1 aired, he gave an interview where he expressed his concern about what happened to Marillion (I think) on the show and what he considered the insurmountable complications it caused for future seasons. As it turned out, those complications were predictably resolved by simply deleting the character, and he was not missed at all. Marillion was tertiary enough that nothing he did in the book even needed to be accompany another character. But Martin really seemed to think the show runners had written themselves into a pickle. I imagine the vast tapestry of Pods, Dickons and Herreys provide all the overwhelming pressure he needs to put off another day’s writing.
The singer? I would be willing to bet most people cannot remember this character exists.
I think the only relevance he later has is getting framed for Lysa's murder?
Well here it was "madness suicide", but the Lords weren't having it and and refused to leave Lf alone with Sansa so he could manipulate her witness testimony, even though he had plenty time for that while they were in fact alone after the murder.
Problem is they teleported right from "your sistah" into the court room, like in Inception or 6th Sense.
So yeah not the airtightest bit in the show.
So in 2017 he says it will be out that year, then in 22 it's just 3/4 done...
I doubt even half of it is done by now.
wtf happened in 2017 where he thought it would be out that year?
That's the year he gave up on it. He's already made his bank there is no reason to ever finish it. The money is in being a TV producer.
God knows. In mid-2017 he announced Fire & Blood out of nowhere, and later said Winds was delayed because he paused it to finish that book.
I personally think the creator of berserk Kentaro Miura and George went through the same thing the popularity of their works caused them to have an unrealistic standard of perfection leading the works themselves to never be completed as they never view it as good enough
In George’s case game of thrones season 8 and house of the dragon season 2 probably made it much worse
More and more, I'm realizing he just had a flash of brilliance there for a half-dozen or so years, and then morphed back into mediocre man afterwards.
I'd say more that he was actually dedicated to writing and in particular to writing ASOIAF. Every other project he's written he has dropped due getting some new shiny idea/getting bored with the previous one or in the case of the sequel to his Tuff book, he jumped to Hollywood to actually make money. George doesn't have an issue of talent, it's discipline.
I recall something about 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
Also he was previously a hollywood writer before ASoIaF and, funnily enough, wanted to write it so he wouldn't have to worry about adapting it to TV/movies.
I do think his lack of discipline should be a stain on how people view his talent too. Discipline and follow through is part of being talented imo.
Being willing to suffer through frustration and other difficult emotions is absolutely a talent for someone trying to do anything creative.
15+ years to finish one book goes so beyond any justifiable issue. I think it has to hurt his legacy. I loved his books and it's just sad.
Well at least that Neil Gaiman essay has aged INCREDIBLY poorly
Gaiman in general
He confirmed Shireen’s burning?
“It wasn't easy for me. I didn't want to give away my books. It's not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and 'hold the door,' and Stannis's decision to burn his daughter. We didn't get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings." It won’t be against the Boltons. In the books, that’s character-wise and geographically impossible. But it’s GRRM’s idea eventually — possibly much later — and likely tied to the Long Night.
Shit, I never read that one. So "geographically and character wise impossible " makes me think my old theory that he actually takes Winterfell is accurate.
Yeah, if the burning happens later at Castle Black or elsewhere far from Winterfell, he’d almost certainly have to defeat the Boltons first.
So Shireen's end is the same?
It depends on what “same” means. Burning his daughter because the weather is bad south of the Wall is very different from sacrificing her at the Wall, against the Others, because he truly believes he’s Azor Ahai and that fulfilling the prophecy will save the Seven Kingdoms from the Long Night. The motivation changes the entire meaning of his arc.
what did he say about jaime knighting brienne?
He said at a fan panel, “In my books, Jaime hasn’t knighted Brienne… yet.”
Well that’s new. He might as well just spoil the whole book at this point
Shit you think that’s bad, the 2024 ASOIAF calendar was illustrated by Justin Sweet in direct collaboration with GRRM and the cover depicts two people that are clearly Rhaegar and Lyanna hanging out on a giant tree that is not a weirwood but still has a face carved on it
Seriously go look it up. I mean what else can that be, other than R+L=J with a secret weirwood wedding on the Isle of Faces? The man’s not even pretending it’s a secret anymore
I mean, R+L=J is basically an open secret everyone’s accepted by now. But teasing Jaime knighting Brienne feels ill-timed if he intends to finish , especially when we’re still not supposed to know if he even survives Stoneheart.
Half the pureasoiaf sub is still convinced he’s Ned and Ashara’s kid
That theory makes absolutely no sense, I don’t understand how people can convince themselves of it.
Well if the show spoiled it then it spoiled it, silly to pretend otherwise in such a case.
Is the friends we made along the way
I love George, but saying “I like other projects too” after 14 years of delays and broken promises is just ridiculous
Give me more eldritch Euron visions and I will die a happy man
I'm not saying his decisions are respectable, but the man is clearly bored of writing this, doesn't want to finish, and has enough money to make that choice. It's healthier just to let it go at this point as a reader.
I've never made decisions based on what's healthy for me mentally or physically and I'm not about to start
The issue being he uses the fans goodwill over ASOIAF to peddle other projects. If he just was like “fuck the fans I’m not finishing the series I’m bored with Westeros” most people would shut up and move on. But then he couldn’t continue the pretext of working on them to hype stuff.
I think this makes it worse. Like, look, I'm an old fan, was a fan before there were even rumours of a TV show. And I got tired of waiting years ago. My enthusiasm has dried up to the point I'm just checking a few subs like this one while I'm doomscrolling.
I don't care anymore.
I used to wait year after year for updates, until I realised that he doesn't care either. If he finishes Winds, fine, if he doesn't - also fine. I'm not even sure I'd buy the book or just will pirate it at this point. And regardless, he's never finishing the last book, so it's all moot.
Dec 2022: 1100-1200 pages written Dec 2023: 1100 pages written Lmao
At this point I’m going to live my life under the assumption that’s he’s never going to finish them and if somehow he does, then I will be extremely happy.
My 15 year old sister is younger than this BS
If you think he was being close to honest, what happened after July 2017?
He likely overestimated himself. He’s not writing at his 1990s pace anymore, but he keeps measuring his progress as if he is. The first three books were written between 1991 and 2000 under very different conditions, yet he seems to be projecting timelines based on that same level of productivity.
bet he says that to all the projects 😤
I regret reading these books at this point.
I read them a decade ago and been waiting ever since. Can’t imagine what it’s like for someone who been following since the original publication.
Not since the original publication, but been here since ’08. At this point it’s basically a chronic mental condition I keep feeding out of spite and misplaced hope.
I think the problem is threefold:
Like we see Dany snap at the tolling of the bells, but we don’t know why she snapped. In written form just something like, “She heard these bells, she learned in her talks with Viserys that the city was surrendering. Her teeth clenched, her hands started shaking as she rode on Drogon. They were supposed to see her as the liberator, instead they saw her as a conqueror? Well, she will show them what a conqueror does.”
That shows her breaking, not out of the blue, not due to the plot demanded she break, but because of something we hear her thoughts. Something I came up with in five minutes, but I’m sure a writer like Martin could figure out something more interesting.
Has no idea how to end the series in two books without a time skip (a plot device he says he hates in other works. Like Dany is still in the Dothraki Sea, Bran is with the Three-Eyed Raven beyond The Wall, Arya is in training with the Faceless Men, Jon is dead at the Wall, Sansa is in the Vale, etc. Which leads to…
The Gordian knot has grown into an even more convoluted problem since he was headed in the same direction as the series that he can’t slice in half since he hates that trope as well. How can you keep track of all those plot lines, locations, characters all at the same time? Game of Thrones had eight POV characters (not including Will), Dance with Dragons has exploded that to 16 (not including Varamyr Sixskins in the Prologue, and Kevan Lannister in the Epilogue.) and that’s not including minor characters who have to move forward as much as the major ones.
Honestly i dont think he wants to finish the books. At the end of the day. What's the point. He still has a dream of spring or whatever the fuck its gonna be called to do, do you honestly thinks he cares enough to even get around to that...ever.
Genuinely believe that, between 2013 and 2020, he has had to completely overhaul the story at least once, maybe twice. He may have done it again since then which, on top of his challenges during covid lockdown, has really hampered him. Its also why he suddenly starts saying that side projects matter because he bashed his head against the wall for almost 10 years straight and he wasn't able to reach a point of completion.
Now we're on year 14 almost 15 since the release of Dance and he's still stumped about the last quarter to a third of the book. We will get winds, I do believe that, but its going to be easily the densest and most complex book yet. He's got a lot of ground to cover for a series that's supposed to end in two books, including Winds, and I think its resulted in him trying to reinvent multiple wheels to make all the pieces fit, with no success.
To me it's either (or both):
1) He is scared shitless. The TV show came out, he got more attention than ever. Now he is paralyzed with fear, he feels like everyones eyes are on him and that everyone will hate him if he gets it wrong.
2) He made his money, no longer cares about writing enough to suffer through the pain of re-writing.
It's complicated for sure, but 10-15 years is more than enough time to overcome that.
I don't understand why he does not release whatever's written with another title, and continue working on Winds after that. He has enough material for an entire book (1100-1200). While he does not owe us an end to the entire series, he should provide us some resolution to Dance (which is an unfinished story). There are arcs that were started in the year 2000 that are still dangling and unresolved.
Because the storylines are tightly interconnected.
George has said that he finished some POVs long ago, only to later realize they contradicted developments in other, later storylines. He then had to go back and rewrite or even discard completed chapters.
If he were to publish part of the material now under a different title, it would lock those events in place. He would lose the ability to adjust them to fit the rest of the narrative as it evolves.
I feel like at this point, with so much material written, he would need to employ a staff of people to keep track of the lore and storylines. Who is where, what they're doing, etc. There's always ubernerds out there who will end up gobbling up the material and knowing it better than the person who wrote the damn thing.
He does have long-time collaborators like Elio García and Linda Antonsson who help with world-building and lore reference books. But the main story seems too personal for him to let others touch in any meaningful way.
That's actually a big part of what his former assistant Ty Franck did for him as I understand it.
I can't help notice that Ty quitting so he could write The Expanse lines up almost perfectly with GRRM's productivity falling off a cliff...
Ty also finishing the Expanse tying up a great story…just chefs kiss 😊
It was apparently Ty's (or maybe his writing partner for the Expanse, Daniel Abraham) idea to split Feast and Dance geographically.
There's also a conspiracy theory that Ty took the master document that he made for George with him when he left, but I am not sure I believe that. In any case
why do i only like unfinished franchises?
how does he not have constant anxiety about not having finished this shit. I have anxiety about any task I haven’t completed.
A perfectionist under worldwide pressure is basically a creative nightmare.
His anxiety must be paralyzing him.
That's what the money is for
I remember 2012 in the forum everyone was thinking 2016 at least. Good times
I remember when “maybe 2020” was a joke because it sounded too absurd to be real. Sweet summer child.
It sucks and he keeps rewriting it to make it work but his bean pole architecture he's gardening around no longer fits the story he's grown. Now he's too long in the tooth to change it completely.
True. At some point he should probably just accept that the ending won’t be as tightly constructed as the first three books. Better to finish the story than endlessly polish it, imperfections are inevitable.
He just needs to be locked in a room full of writers to help him fix his mess so we can get a conclusion to the story.
HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT AAAAAA
There’s something depressing about seeing all this together.
I love the Reddit commenters who want the TV show remade so it can not deviate from 'the books'. The book series has not had a new book since 2011 and Jon Snow is still dead in the books. At least the TV show has an ending, however imperfect and rushed it was.
No ending is better that that ending let’s be honest. At least with no ending you can dream
In my mind the show stopped when Danny sailed to Westeros. The rest is just bad fan fiction.
The show ended when Tyrion killed Tywin. Everything else was fan fiction
Does anyone care anymore? Honestly even if it was released tomorrow it's been so long that I don't think I'd even be excited for it anymore. I started reading the books more than 10 years ago when I was about 14. I'm nearing 30 and the damn book is still not out.. Am I supposed to remember anything from the previous books? Because I don't remember shit. I probably just have a shit memory but I'm sure I'm not the only one. If The Winds of Winter was released tomorrow I'd have to read all the previous books first to remember what the fuck happened before even picking it up.
With the delays to the other books, for a while it ramped our excitement up...until it became increasingly clear that unless he was writing both books simultaneously, there was every reason to believe he wouldnt live long enough to deliver both of them. Im not trying to hurt the man's feelings or wish it upon him, but were all just looking at the facts. Now even if he finished and publishes Winds of Winter, theres no way we get the last book. Why would I waste my time and energy and money on a book I know wont wrap up the story, but will be the last book in the series? Moreso, why would I give any of his other IP my time? HotD season one wasnt bad. It has some cool scenes, some great acting, etc. But then I heard aboht season 2 before I watched it and I haven't any interest in watching it, nor season 3.
And Kot7K looks good, AND like its damn close to the story. Like, really close. Several characters look about as accurate as you can get. But part of me doesn't want to give HBO or GrrM my view, out of spite.
Give me something for the pain…
GRRM will die before finishing ASOIAF.
I will die before Sanderson finishes Stormlight and Mistborn
Why the hell doesn’t he want to write it? It’s his magnum opus and he still has not one but two!!!! books to go. I understand some years in between but this shit is ridiculous. Stop with the procrastination. Stop with your side projects and give your paying customers what they want at this point. We’ll all be there the day it releases in make it a best seller in a day…
Yeah, that’s the baffling part — he’s openly unhappy with HBO, especially HOTD S2, yet he’s still deeply involved with them instead of just focus on his books.
I love how even this massive timeline just skips 3 years between 2012 and 2015. Meanwhile, if you predicted that the book would be published in 2015 back in the day, you’d be called a pessimistic doomed for thinking it would take that long. And that was a DECADE ago.
George is a kneeler.
Maybe once he passes, someone will finish his work.
The real question is...which will come first, TWOW or TES6?
TES6 has institutional momentum. Winds doesn’t.
It’s not about the book, it’s a metaphor. You’re supposed to live through the long night. It’s the journey that counts, not the destination. Seven hells, we’re the idiots.
The show ending was definitely what he planned. After the backlash he changed his plans. Which is why he can't finish the books. There are too many arcs and they can't be finished in just 2 books
There’s really no point in using the show’s ending to determine George’s plans for the books, because the underlying context is completely different.
In the books, the Three-Eyed Crow is Brynden Rivers, also known as Bloodraven, not a neutral mystic, but a former Hand of the King and spymaster who ruled through surveillance, manipulation, and ruthless political control. He’s a morally grey kinslayer with motives and long-term plans we still don’t fully understand.
That matters, because Bran’s training under him isn’t just about fighting the Others. It’s the inheritance of a worldview where knowledge is power and foresight is control. The books even hint at figures like Euron as potentially fallen or corrupted counterparts tied to similar greenseer knowledge, suggesting a much larger and darker framework surrounding Bran’s arc.
The show stripped all of this out. Bloodraven becomes a generic old tree man, the political and moral implications disappear entirely, and once that context is gone, whether Bran becomes king is basically meaningless.I doubt George is bothered by it.
Ahahahaha
If you think TWOW is ever going to released, you haven't been paying attention.
It's just such a difficult book to write... Look at the (sub)plots that have developed. I'm surprised his head didn't explode yet.
A Dream of Spring, I think, will be easier.
Just give us a sample chapter to leave you alone for 3 more years
He's never going to finish the books, and he genuinely doesn't care.
Hopefully someone is able to finish the story from the notes he leaves. If he leaves any.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
The real tresure is the
friends wemoney I made on the way.Why are we here…just to suffer
Holy that is depressing
It's not a spoiler if the books never come out.
Can someone clarify that public Kingsmoot diss comment as per the May 2016 entry? Thanks!
The show aired its Kingsmoot where Euron Greyjoy basically wins by literally bragging about his big cock. Just days later, George released The Forsaken, which portrays him as a deeply disturbing, prophetic, almost eldritch figure tied to blood magic, visions, and apocalyptic imagery through Aeron’s psychological torment. Many readers took this as a pretty clear expression of his dissatisfaction with the show.
So who is betting which one will come first, the winds of winter, half life 3, or elder scrolls 6?
Dec 2022-Nov 2023 what in the actual fuck?
Could be worse. He could be Patrick Rothfuss.
In that timeline, there should be HBO handing over bags of money to ensure the show finishes before the books.
At this point I would not be surprised if someone else ends up finishing the books.
Perhaps it was planned all along
The book isn't coming out, just move on
Anyone know who will write these books when he's dead?
The book is 15 years in the making?
At this point I would read TWOW only if Stannis won.
But it's too late for him to write something suprising or beyond the rails already laid down.
funny thought I just had would be if the fans starting a class action lawsuit for not fininshing the last 2 books. I dont expect it to happen but the thought amuses me.
And people used to call him the Tolkien of our age…
On Dec 2023 he told he have around 1,1k pages written. Almost year later he have the same number of pages written. Even if you write one page per day (or two on Monday with free Sunday) there should be at least 300 new pages. And for the love of Cthulhu he had more than enough time to finish. I am afraid that is not time (clearly) lacking. But he overblown number of characters, finals of TV series supposedly written based on his advice what will happen had huge backlash. With the remnants of respect I still have, he screw up. It went to long. I (and many others) don't care anymore. TV ending was bad but at least it was some ending. I have to much series to watch, to much new and old books to read to take care of one old guy who can't finish his book. Even if this book would came tomorrow I would only read the synopsis.
To be fair, during and after COVID he lost several close friends and openly talked about how hard that period was on him mentally. That doesn’t excuse a 15-year delay, but that particular year was clearly a dark one for George.
Writing a book takes a lot of work. Writing a plot for a TV show and having others fix is a lot easier. Also the second one pays about 50 times more.
The reason he doesn't finish the story is his time is too valuable now and he can't be bothered.
If that isn't enough to make you mad, this has had a huge affect on the writing community. No one trusts anyone to finish a trilogy now
Maybe The Winds of Winter is the friends we made along the way
Goddamn, seeing it laid out like that really is something. He might be the only person on the planet who procrastinates better than I do.