People often say Ned was horrible at trusting people but he was actually great at seeing people’s character for the most part. He knew not to trust Roose Bolton who murdered his son when he got the chance, Pycelle who is a Lannister crony, Varys who is plotting a Targaryen restoration/Blackfyre ascension and Littlefinger who is plotting a civil war and while he did trust Littlefinger later that was only after a great deal of time and at Catelyn’ encouragement.
I would also like to point out that even very intelligent characters like Kevan and Tywin trusted Varys and Littlefinger when they were working with them and only Tyrion and Varys saw through Littlefinger and even Tyrion was fooled by Varys for a time.
The only bad judgement he made was with Cersei although this was due to his compassion as she was also a parent and he did think the City Watch were on his side so if she didn’t take up his offer he could just arrest her and overpower her guards which is probably why he didn’t have a plan B.
Good judge. Yes.
Good man of action? Debatable.
It seems obvious to readers/viewers that Cersei is untrustworthy and wouldn’t follow the “rules” of succession, but it makes sense that Ned wouldn’t believe that about her. He never spent any real time around Cersei or the Lannisters and couldn’t know. Norms and rules can get flouted easily by someone shameless enough to exploit them.
I think he understood she loved her children more than anything. So he gives her the peaceful option of leaving, without thinking she would pull off what she did. I agree that he underestimated her severely. And it cost him his head.
Huh? Ned never once expected Cersei to follow the rules of succession.
That distinction fits Ned perfectly, he reads people well but struggles to act ruthlessly in a system that rewards speed and compromise.
He understood character but underestimated consequences, doing the right thing does not always line up with surviving the game.
Dude was used to being the top dog and getting to cut off peoples head without consequence, or even a trial.
He forgot he was not a warlord with a northern army at his back, such was the case in 283.
He is also childish and fell out with Robert twice. The second time after being hand for a few weeks and he threw down his chain of office, without considering the implications for his bethroted daughter.
He actually should have trusted Varys though, when Varys talked to him in the dungeon.
I feel his relationship with Varys shows us another example of what is really Ned's number one flaw (which is absolutely not his poor judge of character). Varys is described as soft, fat and perfumed. He deliberately puts himself as far from a warrior as one can get. He trades in secrets, is very open about his spying and sneaking, and speaks in riddles and platitudes. In short, he isn't just dishonourable by Ned's judgement; he is below honour.
Ned was never going to listen to or trust a person like this, because honour and plain truth is Ned's bread and butter. There is nothing Varys could do to win Ned over because he simply isn't the right kind of person. Varys tried to help while Ned was dying and politically powerless, and Ned still thought it was a trick.
This is the problem right from the start incidentally - the oath breaker who Ned beheads tries to tell his story, but Ned won't countenance it because the chap has shown he is dishonourable and Ned has his own honourable duty to perform. Another running theme of nobles ignoring the dangers of the others because of their own particular brand of bullshit.
I would also suggest that Ned's high opinion of Jon Arryn is naive and unwarranted, given the role that Arryn's catastrophic foolishness played in the overall disaster of Robert's reign.
Jon Arryn was basically his dad, it is understandable that he had a blindspot for his failures.
I think that is mainly because Ned rarely saw Arryn after the war, Ned spent most of his time in the North, only seeing Robert and Arryn at events and special occasions, so his memories of Arryn being a father figure to both of them probably was giving him rose tinted view of the man.
Jon was a generation older. He may have been declining naturally. Or--more likely--since Lysa and Baelish were slowly poisoning him--Arryn's decline was slow, relentless, and...medical! Up in Winterfell Ned couldn't know, and King Robert generally turned a blind eye to every obstacle and unpleasantness he hated dealing with.
People really forget how old Jon was. He was around 80 when he died, a full 45 years older than Ned
....Ned Stark was 35 in the books? Sean Bean really did a number on my perception of him.
Well he didn't seem very effective as hand of the king. He wasn't able to stop Robert getting the crown into massive debt and didn't seem to realise that half the small council was plotting against him.
We don’t really see Jon Arryn at all so I think it’s a little unfair to guess how he saw the rest of the small council and I would also guess that littlefinger was messing with the crowns money on top of Robert’s expenses so who’s to say that little finger wouldn’t have done anything no matter what Robert did. On Jon Arryn trusting littlefinger I would call it naive, although all but around two people Tyrion and Ned realize that he’s up to something, in Kevan’s epilogue I’m pretty sure he laments not having Baelish there to find more money.
I get a very Stannis-vibe from the little we see of Arryns reputation. Probably admired Robert Jock personae and was unable to reign in what was supposed to be his puppet king, as he lay around the house all day in his briefs, smoking pot and watching telly.
“Disaster of Robert’s reign” is funny af.
He overthrow a nearly 300 year old dynasty and only had 1 uprising which he crushed within a year. He was a shit king but his reign was actually impressive.
“Jon Arryn’s catastrophic foolishness” ffs
Crippling debt, state capture, succession crisis.
“Robert’s peace”
The only reason Robert doesn’t go down as an all timer as a king (even tho he’s a shit one) is due to the succession , which isn’t really his fault.
I'm not talking about what is and isn't Robert's fault. I said that his reign was a disaster. The realm ran up tremendous debt. The state was captured by the Lannisters. The chief spymaster was actively orchestrating a barbarian invasion. The treasury was in the hands of a probable-embezzler who presided over the murder of the chief minister. Two of the leading families of the realm were openly feuding, fighting in the street. A rebellious vassal was left in power, just to immediately rebel again at the next opportunity. The king himself died in a hunting accident/was murdered.The royal heirs were illegitimate, leading to a succession crisis that's causing the state to disintegrate. If this is your idea of an "all timer" I don't even want to ask what you regard as average.
It's very important to distinguish between book-Ned and show-Ned in this discussion, because David and Dan's interpretation of show-Ned was that he was a dummy who didn't understand politics. Cue mention of I Am 14 And This Is Deep, we're walking, we're walking.
But yes, while book-Ned made mistakes, it's more that he thought of his job as limited in scope and duration; his plan was essentially to use his position as Hand temporarily to find Jon Arryn's killer. He didn't have longer-term or greater ambitions than that. Because of that, it didn't occur to him to systematically change anything or make serious moves with his power, until suddenly he found a) he had to do so, while b) at the same time, his investigation had revealed that essentially nobody on the Small Council could be trusted.
With regard to a), he was quickly figuring out that the Lannisters were engaging in a slow-motion coup, and were attempting to assassinate and replace Robert Baratheon. While the war that started between the Riverlands and Westerlands wasn't directly related to that coup, the coup was far enough along (at least, to the best of Ned's understanding) that Tywin Lannister felt perfectly comfortable breaking the peace and attacking Hoster Tully's lands openly. And while slapping Tywin back hard enough to knock his teeth out was the right move, Ned found that his ability to do so was hamstrung by all the people on the Council with their own agendas that were either directly supporting the coup, or lateral to it. The only loyal man he found on the Council that he felt he could unequivocally trust was Barristan Selmy . . . but for that exact same reason, he couldn't go to Barristan to work against the coup. At best, Selmy would feel hamstrung by his position; at worst, he'd see Ned as conspiring against Robert Baratheon's heir Joffrey.
That of course brought us to b), with the reveal that, basically, nobody else on the Small Council had both power to act and would act for the good of the Baratheon dynasty. Stannis was AWOL. Renly was clearly in league with the Tyrells plotting something which Ned hadn't yet worked out the details. Varys, however helpful, is nevertheless not to be trusted and had no power in his own right anyway. Pycelle was clearly a Lannister sympathizer. Janos Slynt was corrupt and would go whichever way paid best.
Which in turn, by process of elimination, left Littlefinger as the one possibility, that Catelyn had vouched for. Use Littlefinger to buy Slynt, and take control of the city. The logic works once you look at how the pieces are arrayed, and Ned has to be fairly observant to pick it up in such a small amount of time. And while you could certainly fault Ned for failing to use the opportunity afforded by the Hand's Tourney to restack the Small Council with supporters (replace Stannis as Master of Ships with Jason Mallister, and send Renly off on some errand and replace him with Bronze Yohn Royce as Master of Laws, and suddenly he's got allies in King's Landing that absolutely nobody could deny are eminently sensible picks for the job), that's an understandable error given his initial preconception of how limited the scope of his job was to be.
They really made show Ned one dimensional and completely dumbed him down. It was only do to Sean Beans masterful performance that saved it from major scrutiny, but they really missed out on book Ned.
I mean his one on one with Cersei becomes more amazing as the story goes on and you realize how rare genuine moments of attempted compassion are in that rats nest we call Kingslanding.
Cersei really must have been amazed that all the stories she probably heard Bobby b slobber out while drunk feasting, over the years, where actually true. And not just some ale fueled nostalgia bate. Like she did offer Ned regency during their talk which is a hell of a lot of trust, as it essentially puts Joffrey in Ned’s power.
YOU'RE MY COUNCIL, COUNSEL! SPEAK SENSE TO THIS HONORABLE FOOL!
I think that part of the problem is that key Lannisters are Machiavellian, but aren't as clever as they think.
Ned doesn't even have to like Cersei much, he can easily imagine she's a bit of a schemer - but she is married to the king and the Lannisters have reached prominent, prestigious positions, her brother's even a Kingsguard despite killing the previous king. A rational actor in her position would probably work with the system, strengthen the crown, produce an heir and a spare, get some nephews promoted, consolidate Lannister gains. Keeping Pycelle on the small council is just part of the consolidation. So, nobody - including Ned - expects Cersei to pull the roof down on her head.
Tywin Lannister always talks about strengthening the family for the long term, he sounds like he knows how to win a war and win the peace, but he's not a 10/10 schemer, he's a 7 at best. Easy for Ned to misjudge Tywin when he's about to make a mistake...?
Ned wasn’t used to the politics of the southern kingdoms, he would be an effective administrator if Bobby B had given the reigns of the kingdoms to more loyal people. Ned was in a den of snakes and as much as he was out of his depth, if he was given the position of hand in any other era of the targaryen dynasty or even at the beginning of Bobby’s reign, then he would have been fine.
A DOTHRAKI HORDE ON AN OPEN FIELD, NED!
Good judge of character - yes.
Good at playing politics, Kings Landing style - not so much, no.
Roose Bolton and his family had been feuding with the starks for centuries. Maesters aren’t generally trusted by their own assigned houses, idk why he’d trust pycelle, who has no obligation to serve him. Literally no one trusts Varys or Littlefinger, they’re temporary allies of convenience at best.
Ned might have been a decent judge of character, but he had absolutely 0 political sense and he died for it.
Edit: I’m not trashing Ned Stark or excusing anyone else. I like Ned. I’m just blunt.
0 political sense is just wrong.
He was incredibly respected in the north and ruled (through politics) very well.
Ned was incredibly unlucky in kings landing and would have succeeded if Robert didn’t die in an incredibly lucky way (for cercei).
Kings landing was an absolute rats nest at the time where the majority would not be able to manage in a political way - Ned had a couple of months there at best to learn the system.
In the North he is the Big Dog. And he has an army he can use.
In Kings Landing he is Blackadder from the first season and even Cersei laughs as Jaime kills his guards and breaks his leg.* Ned should have brought s minimum 1000 men from the north to serve as the Hands Guard. Even Renly is shocked at Ned not understanding he needs to have armed men with him as he makes a coup. He then makes no effort ensuring Allar Deem and Janos slynt is on his side. Typical Romanian dictator who thinks his word is law, but forgets why.
*(Not jaime personally of course, since Jaime is a little bitch that never fought 1v1 with an adult man).
Huh, Jaime was pissed at the soldier who interfered with the leg
Show jaime. Not book jaime, where he gleefully told them to break Neds legs and kills his men.
Ah, mb sry
Unlucky in kings landing? Or unequipped for it? We never get any reference of Ned politicking in the north like he failed to do in KL. In fact it runs against his entire honorable persona. Narratively that was the whole point
We know though that Ned is incredibly respected and has complete authority over the north - so at least we know he cannot be terrible at running a state.
I think considering that he would have won if Robert didn’t die of some incredible long shot of a murder plot, he’s unlucky.
I think people mistake saying he wasn’t ruthless enough for kings landing vs being politically inept.
He could handle people, commanded respect, knew how to be devious to a point, but just wasn’t ruthless enough in wanting kids to die.
I’d argue running an effective state and political jockeying are two different skillsets. He was more of a technocrat than a proper politician. Which was why he was way out of his depth in the south. Cat warned him. The north ≠ Westeros, and Winterfell is about as far from KL in terms of political arenas as you can possibly get.
I would personally very much say that they are two very similar overlapping things - one cannot run a good state without being good at the politics of it.
Cercei shagging her brother, mirdering her husband, and taking over the crown is almost beyond what is considered in the realm of politics, and shouldn’t be the judge of whether someone is good at politics or not.
I agree they overlap. I just happen to be a cynical bastard, so I have the slick/ruthless politician winning over the competent bureaucrat 8 days out of every week. But yeah Cersei is far from a good example of good rulership/leadership/politicking whatever you want to call it. Ruthlessness can only do so much to compensate lol
Aha yeah, in agreement in that he wasn’t ruthless enough for the environment that he was in.
I do think my man Ned would do ok in any other time in the 7 kingdoms where cercei doesn’t exist.
Ned literally wins the game of thrones in the first book if there wasn't plot armour lmfao
When you play the game of thrones you either win or you die. Close only works for horseshoes and hand grenades
Ned was a tool
I think people should also realize that Ned’s sympathy towards Cersei raising secret bastards hits a little too close to home for him.
He’s not just compassionate and merciful when he offers her, and her kids, a way out. He sees a bit of himself in her since him raising Jon as his own is a very similar situation.
ned saw people for how they presented themselves, he never thought any deeper than what his eyes saw
He judged Jaime for his "greatest" deed despite not even thinking or even trying to think why he did it
he put his faith in Littlefinger even though he knows that little finger is a sordid guy