No, no, Ike is the one with swords. Soren uses tomes. You can have Soren get daggers upon promotion, but they're a distinct weapon type from swords in the Tellius games.
Jokes aside I’ve been seeing Soren discourse and it’s tiring. I get not liking him (his personality can be a lot) but he has his reasons for acting the way he does. He’s mixed race meaning he got the worst of the racial hatred from both sides. Does this excuse his actions? No. Does it explain them and is it a realistic trauma response? Yes. You guys really want victims of racial abuse to be perfect victims and it shows.
Exactly, if the game used Soren's backstory to excuse his racism it would be a big problem and he'd be a bad character. But they don't and instead have him grow out of it.
It's kinda funny how people will get mad at people not liking characters like Leonie and go on and on about how they aren't mature enough to handle complex characters, and they give that same shit to characters like Soren or Dimitri
Putting aside the endless 3H discourse, I agree. The point of the story is that, aside from the Agarthans, there are no villains, and the situations of Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude, and Rhea are very complex. All of this is what makes these four leaders so interesting and memorable.
Yes, there are some things I disagree with about Edelgard, but there are also things I do agree with and she does what she does to improve the situation in Fodlan; she's not evil. The same can be said of Rhea. She's not evil and has done some good things, but I think it's best for her to retire after everything she's been through.
The discourse does tend to lean the other way though, it's more supporters of edelgard or rhea or whoever else going overboard with the X did nothing wrong, which then leads to arguments between all of these people because the characters have conflict with each other, so if your character did nothing wrong and that includes opposing my character then your wrong because my character did nothing wrong. Repeat forever, more years of 3 houses discourse
anyone having an issue with edelgard is insane. She wanted to create a better world. She didn't do it out of personal greed. She's exactly the person who if succeeds and written in history will be treated as a champion of freedom like jeanne d'arc
Let's be real it does not help 3 Houses has like 4 realities where the chars change greatly per route. In her route she doesn't even have the backstory bit that makes her evil. It's never referred to.
Obviously I'm not a fan of Edelgard as a character, not helped by the discourse but
- Information she knows is different from what WE as the player know
- Her support chain with Manuela understandably has her worry that what she'll do could affect the followers of the goddess
- As memetic as it is, crests really are to blame. Ask Ingrid, Sylvain, and Dorothea
Edit: WHY THE FUCK DOES IT ALWAYS LEAD INTO EDELGARD DISCOURSE
Edit: WHY THE FUCK DOES IT ALWAYS LEAD INTO EDELGARD DISCOURSE
it's because of Deontological ethics. ie some things/actions are inherently bad, and if you do them you're bad. Starting wars is bad, so Edelgard is bad, and there's no context or anything else that can chnage that for people.
there's also the historical national background of redditors at play. back in the day there was a huge poll and it showed the people who hated Edelgard the most were first worlders who don't have the most experience in their history classes curricula with independence wars and revolutions.
3House writern is way that it hopes the player has enough media literacy, are able to read between the lines but a large knowledge on different subject to understand the full context of it narrative and it messages.
House is willing to not tell the player the answer to plot points and makes them figure out themselves. It is also willing to actively lie to the player and misinform them to tie back into it larger narrative and messages.
You see this with how Non-CF frame Edelgard as a total dictator who aims to make herself Fódlan new gods the second she declares war.
This is a lie, created by the two individual who made themselves Saint figure within a religion they created (Rhea and Seteth). It is fear mongers which see a lot do in this route as rather then giving a good criticise towards Edelgard rebellion against status quo, she is often demonised instead.
In reality, Edelgard is the only lord who actively aims to not die in power from old age and instead retire once she achieved her goals. Edelgard as a emperor, also deals with disagreement in a healthy way and tries to come to a middle ground. In fact, she and Claude are the only individual who doesn't purge their own people, specifically those who had disagreement and have different beliefs.
However, there need to be an understanding that there are flaws to 3House writing which is made worst by mistranslation.
If the player are not being taught by the game to pick up on when character are lying to them or that they don't know the full truth, then the player are going to takes lies as truth.
This issues is at it worst with plot points that are tied to "reading between the lines", that are never full explained to the player. Since it is assuming all the player can do it. When some player can't and it something you can't really fault player for since not everyone get good education. Some player has Autism which can effect someone abilities to read between the lines.
Like House has amazing writing, but every other games, there are flaws because there is no such thing as a perfect story.
I personally think three houses has aged poorly in some ways when it comes to writing, but the amount of trust it has in the player to figure things out is not one of them
I really enjoyed being able to piece everything together
I'm not saying the trust in the player is a bad things per say.
It one of those aspect where it need to have consistent writing. Something neither House or Hopes really have at times. Especially depending on the route.
For example. White Cloud exist as a set up for the second half for the game, a set up that is really effective in giving the player the understands of Fódlan worldbuilding and it's issues. (I count paralogue and support that normally unlock in WC as a part of it.)
However, a lot of this set goes onto being unused by 3/4 routes, with the issues not being resolved or given a explaination until the endings. In fact the central issues of Crest, the corrupt noblity and the hints towards the Church being a oppressive organisation that has major control over Fódlan completely disappears from the game. A lot of effort put into developing the worldbuilding goes away because it doesn't match the story the part 2 wants to tell
Don't get me wrong. I love piecing the narrative, worldbuilding and lore together, part of why I am excited for FW is how many question I now have about Fódlan lore.
But when the messaging between the route conflict with each other, where certain route narrative can even implode because of the confliction between the narrative, the worldbuilding and the larger story themes. (I partly blame the arguments about this game and it characters that been happening for 6+ years on the writing because people are able to come to two different conclusion that completely conflict with each because of the inconsistent writing.)
Then I think it probably best that they should have less trust in the player and the story clear for the goal of a more consistent writing.
I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying she's the person who would be in the future called a hero due to the fact that she was looking out for the greater good. Yes she did astrocious things to do it. Welcome to humanity and society where if you die you don't get a second chance.
It's almost like we have real world situations happening right now that are telling of this exact scenario.
Edelgard would have been an unanimously acclaimed character just like Arvis if they had stuck to her being an antagonist with good intentions but bad actions.
The issue remains that Crimson Flower just tries to twist her as a protagonist and it... doesnt really work that well. Her entire thing is doing bad things with alleged good intentions, but her being rash, untrusting and deeply traumatized means that she cant see beyond her own needs.
This is even something people bring up to her. In the face of nobility's generational wealth and the common people's generational poverty, her meritocracy ideals are just swapping crests for landowning and monetary power as the reason why nobility will stay in power.
Her end goal being removing crests as the icon of sociopolitical power ends up implying that, deep down, she is more interesting on appeasing her own trauma and that of other nobility youth than actually bettering society. She has no real commoner member of her group. Her entire character feels like a well-meaning but ultimately noble from FFT, not a FE protagonist.
This would have been an excellent character, someone with actual layers (her being right but also wrong)... but they needed to make her someone who wins and is always right in her route, while remaining the antagonist in the other routes
Sadly, most Edelstans dont see Edelgard as a villain, because she is the protagonist of their chosen route.
While you can 100% have villain protagonists, Edelgard's mid development swap into protagonist of her own route means that they tried to whitewash and absolve her out of her most damning actions and intentions (while also removing any sort of fall out for allying herself with Cult-kun), while also keeping her as some kind of insane selfish dictator outside her route.
My apologies, the way you were using Pro/Ant/agonist was. Synonymous with Hero/Villain instead of it being clear you understood the difference. I understand if that was not your intention, and I'm sorry that I made you feel like a moron.
I have no dog in the 3H discourse. I hate 3H as whole. I don't actually care how Edelstans or Edelhaters feel about it because the whole game is a tar pit to me, and Edel is a prime example of why, for many of the same reasons you're complaining about here.
My only dog in this is that people as a whole stop mistaking protag for hero and antag for villain.
"did nothing wrong". Want to directly quote where i said that? IT's REALLY hilarious how u/WinterWolf18 proves exactly how you people can't understand that and boom you appear.
Edit: People like you would call the french revolution awful and oppressive.
Sick block dude. Maybe don't create fictional arguments. Bro can't even quote where i said "did nothing wrong" lol. Also, imagine calling someone a moral prick because you literally created a fictional argument. Mhmm. Righto dude.
never said it was a personal attack. I said he created an argument out of thin air by saying something I didn't say. The dude himself is the one creating discourse/ The irony here though.
They were just pointing out that it’s funny that they’d just made a comment referring to people starting 3H discourse and came across 3H discourse right after - it wasn’t a personal attack calm down
lmao said the guy who literally created an argument to fit his narrative. Lmao it's so hilarious that in games like FE that require critical thinking and people who actually understand history can't understand the nuance. Lmao.
I didn't create an argument, it was a one off, humorous comment. You're just a smug prick who feels morally superior because you happen to like a video game character.
The point is that they were not creating an argument at all, just pointing out the humour in 3H discourse appearing out of nowhere. You’re the one spawning an argument out of a comment that did not accuse you of anything. They didn’t even say that you specifically said “Edelgard did nothing wrong”
It is funny. Because it just hit me. I didn't like Leonie because she was all, "Jeralt, Jeralt, Jeralt" but technically Soren is all "Ike, Ike, Ike" and he's one of my favorite characters.
Look...Soren is just built different. Plus yeah Leonie got SO upset that my Byleth was the daughter of the ESTEEMED Jeralt of the Holy Sun and every day I didn't prove my worth was another day of her wishing she could smite me down and take my place. Idk why I pitied her at first and abducted her into the Blue Lions...Dmitri deserved better...at least I got Dorothea and Bernie to make up for that mistake!
I mean the big thing is that for the VAST majority of the games no one knows Soren is half Laguz so he’s just treated as human so he never really gets the “worst of both worlds” except for his backstory.
Yea but its revealed in the second game that a lot of laguz have an instinctive fear/revulsion/hatred towards branded even if they don't know they're branded. Micaiah and that one catgirl for example.
I see so, so, so much Soren discourse and it really is tiring. People want perfect victims soooooo bad and it's absolute insane. Not everyone is going to react the same way. Soren is entirely understandable for his extreme behavior, but he's still in a state of needing to be helped and have his behavior corrected while understanding he doesn't have to be that way because not everyone is going to hurt him like that anymore. He has a family that loves him now, it's okay to let go of some of that aggression and those fears. I love Soren so much, legitimately top 2 favorite FE characters of all time, right alongside Ike. (As it should be.)
Exactly. If anything I'm glad Soren isn't a perfect victim, he's super messy and has so much emotional baggage which is a lot more realistic then someone whose just ok the next day but is still somewhat traumatized. All of this just makes the scene at the end where he cries in Ike's arms all the more impactful as well, it makes me sad that people only discuss the hug he shares with Ike due to ship discourse but it's actually pretty heartbreaking when you think about it. It's not just a hug, it's an abuse victim finally breaking down after reopening a massive wound and the person whose supported him every bit along the way comforting and accepting him.
Also you have good taste. He's my favorite FE character and my second favorite character in all of fiction (only being beaten out by Sayaka from Madoka). It's impressive how he's had a chokehold on me for this long but it just goes to show what a good character he is.
As someone who just started playing POR for the first time, my annoyance with Soren was just this scene, and only from a practical POV.
You've got issues Soren, I get it. But maybe don't antagonize the people who just came here to save our asses. Especially because they could both stomp a mud hole in your ass and we've got no one to give us help besides the Gallians.
You're supposed to be the smart one, control yourself in this one critical moment, would you?
Not disagreeing or forcing you in a certain narrative but I just like to reiterate that Soren is a traumatised teenager, yes, he’s extremely smart and controlled but still just a teen dealing with his trauma and coping and sometimes emotions flare out and that’s precisely what happened.
He had extremely traumatic experiences with the Laguz and when Lethe lashed out at the one person who saw him as a someone rather than a punching bag, he got angry and lashed out. A very stupid burst of emotion but a very realistic one.
depends on if you read his supports, soren in general kinda requires Ike A support across both games to fully clock, especially given how much focus the narrative gives him.
edit: realized I should explain lol, he gives his full backstory in his ike support in por. thankfully i think pretty much anyone who cares about soren or gay romance will likely angle the soren/ike A anyway and soren's character development works fine as a secondary character otherwise
I'm a little confused what it is you're fighting here, the post was a criticism of Ike being a hypocrite and putting up with Soren's hatred of the laguz, nothing to do with Soren as a character. What is the Soren discourse, exactly? What are people not reading? Are they not understanding why Soren is the way he is?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it possible that you saw this post, or another like it, and you were maybe too quick to assume that the person who made it hates Soren and doesn't understand the way he is? To me, this seems like just a funny joke that is pretty accurate, sure it doesn't acknowledge the layers, but it doesn't need to.
Plenty of people know about Soren's tragic past, and they have decided for themselves that his past does not make his current behavior better.
You accuse people of wanting "perfect victims." Well, I don't know about that, but I think it is reasonable to want victims to be better than their abusers because otherwise the cycle of abuse is likely to continue. Sure, it is realistic of Soren to act how he does, and it makes him an interesting character, but he is still not a good person and that is a perfectly reasonable thing to criticize.
Good actions don't make a good person, just like bad actions don't make a bad person. You are simply a person that either makes good or bad actions. Soren, like anyone else, does both. The game also shows him acknowledge the bad things he does and he tries to amend them. I think it's good to acknowledge the bad things characters do, but it's very surface level to say, "thing bad, therefore, bad person," and be done with it.
I guess that's where /u/WinterWolf18 is coming from, probably just tired from surface level criticism of one of their favorite characters.
Finally someone says it, I’m tired of people saying that Soren would be draining for Ike to deal with as if Ike isn’t the one whose constantly going to check on Soren and assuring him of his worth.
He makes sure they’re taken care of, and pretty much stays with them and then leave with Soren.
Ranulf is implied to follow on his own journey after Ike as Ike is never mentioned in his ending so it’s very similar to those endings where they go separate way, and his ending is the only one where a partner isn’t mentioned. Maybe he finds Ike in his journey but he doesn’t leave with Ike in tow.
Honestly I never got that vibe (though I do really like the idea), it feels more like Heroes, Engage, the Stage Play and the drama CD are heavily pushing Ike/Soren if anything else. Though Ranulf's case is a lot more unfortunate given his VAs scandal which left IS not wanting to touch any character his va voiced for a few years.
Ranulf is canonically the only laguz that Soren trusts and feels comfortable around. And rides him. Its mostly the localization removing a lot of scenes from the extended script.
it feels more like Heroes, Engage, the Stage Play and the drama CD are heavily pushing Ike/Soren if anything else.
tbf Heroes added Ranulf 2 years after Ike and Soren, Engage doesnt have him at all, etc.
"Ranulf is canonically the only laguz that Soren trusts and feels comfortable around. And rides him. Its mostly the localization removing a lot of scenes from the extended script."
Wait what material says or shows that? I'm curious
Agreed. And frankly, the va thing happened after the cd drama and tellius valentine was released the same year Ranulf was added so the VA was no factor here.
The CD drama focused on the chapter in which Ranulf joins in Rd for the first time and yet it was just Ike, Soren, Titania, Bk, Sothe and Micaiah focused.
Ranulf is just not that important to tellius as people seem to think and it’s clear the devs ship and push Ike and Soren.
Honestly, the only people I’ve seen ship Ike and Ranulf are those individuals that dislike Soren and those that self insert into Ranulf and want to ship themselves with Ike. No hate, but it’s a fact.
Eh I'm fine with Ike/Ranulf and don't really think it means people dislike Soren. It's not like people who ship Eliwood with Fiora and Lyn hate Ninian by default and want to self insert, they just have a different preference. Yes there are some that hate on Soren and think Ike deserves better but that doesn't make up the majority of Ike/Ranulf shippers I've met.
Also to play devil's advocate for the CD Drama and Valentines: those were Greil Merc focused (at least on Ike's side of the drama CD) so Ranulf wouldn't have made sense.
The valentine, I’ll give you that, but the CD dramas focus was arc-based. If it was Greil merc focused. Mist 100% would’ve been a part of it. It was basically a Mica/Sothe Ike/Soren parallel fest, the two tellius lords and their respective partners. Ike clashes against Micaiah and Sothe clashes against Soren - giving even more indication towards that. If they wanted, Ranulf could’ve easily replaced Titania especially since his VA had been in the studio but they didn’t.
It’s very telling.
And I’m glad, but unfortunately, I’ve always dealt with the extreme rude side of his fanbase. The type that lie, dismiss Soren, fabricate Ike and Sorens interactions and insert their opinion in every ikesoren related post ever.. but you’re right, I shouldn’t generalise. I really do hope most are chill.
The CD Drama probably wanted three for three seeing as no one in the Dawn Brigade had been cast at the time so they picked Titiana and Soren for Ike's side and the Black Knight and Sothe for Micaiah's. One thing I will say is that I don't think it was VA based though, Soren's va is pretty huge in Japan and was working on tons of big projects at the time so they probably just wanted Soren for both the Stage Play and the Drama CD and were somehow able to work something out. Mist WAS supposed to be at a live reading at the second Expo with Ike's va but that was cancelled due to Covid.
Also I've never seen any Ike/Ranulf shippers do that, most I've met are pretty chill (ironically I've dealt with Ike/Elincia shippers like that though). I hope you can deal with said chill said of the fanbase one day.
The tellius recollection books that claim that Ike feels love for Soren and their two hearts become one after their secret base conversation.
They’re all Ikesoren focused though as I don’t know any material that ships or pushes Ranulf or all three. Theres also heroes and engage that heavily ship Ikesoren.
To be fair to Ike Soren acted like this openly once (please correct me if i'm wrong) and his heritage makes things complicated. Meanwhile you have Jill, from Daein, the country where children are told to hate demi-human at school and is a complete stranger. Even when Ike doesn't necessarily know what Daein does his skepticism is honestly warranted.
Also there might be some favouritism for Soren they knew each other for most of their life. It's like the "Look he was there for me" meme just less extreme
"It's OK, I'm half laguz, I can say it"
sorens got the s-word pass
No, no, Ike is the one with swords. Soren uses tomes. You can have Soren get daggers upon promotion, but they're a distinct weapon type from swords in the Tellius games.
Daggers also suck.. like Soren does with Ike
Just because he has a 4 foot laguz dong in his ass doesn’t make him Half laguz
Laguz by injection.
Ike: do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Soren: "Never saw her before, you saying?"
No but I would kiss Soren’s mom
Real, she’s insanely attractive. A bit psychotic but so pretty.
I don't think I'd be able to even stand in front of her, I'd just turn into a gay mess on the spot.
Soren: "No, just you."
Soren: jokes on you I hate that subhuman too
I mean Ike recruited Shinon so not surprised he gave his pookie a pass
Jokes aside I’ve been seeing Soren discourse and it’s tiring. I get not liking him (his personality can be a lot) but he has his reasons for acting the way he does. He’s mixed race meaning he got the worst of the racial hatred from both sides. Does this excuse his actions? No. Does it explain them and is it a realistic trauma response? Yes. You guys really want victims of racial abuse to be perfect victims and it shows.
I don't know what to say here that can add well to the text, but even if it's for tragic reasons the narrative does not endorse Soren being a racist
Exactly, if the game used Soren's backstory to excuse his racism it would be a big problem and he'd be a bad character. But they don't and instead have him grow out of it.
I mean Japan had an bad race problem(1900s WW2) probably still do
By end game they are all more understanding anyways 🤷♂️
It's kinda funny how people will get mad at people not liking characters like Leonie and go on and on about how they aren't mature enough to handle complex characters, and they give that same shit to characters like Soren or Dimitri
Edelgard as well. You people cannot handle characters that have tons of layers and it shows.
Edit: Guys this was not meant to start Edelgard discourse are you people insane?
You are talking about redditors that are fire emblem fans. The answer is yes
THREE MORE YEARS OF 3H DISCOURSE
You speak her name you summon the discourse, i thougth that was clear for everyone
Putting aside the endless 3H discourse, I agree. The point of the story is that, aside from the Agarthans, there are no villains, and the situations of Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude, and Rhea are very complex. All of this is what makes these four leaders so interesting and memorable.
Yes, there are some things I disagree with about Edelgard, but there are also things I do agree with and she does what she does to improve the situation in Fodlan; she's not evil. The same can be said of Rhea. She's not evil and has done some good things, but I think it's best for her to retire after everything she's been through.
The discourse does tend to lean the other way though, it's more supporters of edelgard or rhea or whoever else going overboard with the X did nothing wrong, which then leads to arguments between all of these people because the characters have conflict with each other, so if your character did nothing wrong and that includes opposing my character then your wrong because my character did nothing wrong. Repeat forever, more years of 3 houses discourse
anyone having an issue with edelgard is insane. She wanted to create a better world. She didn't do it out of personal greed. She's exactly the person who if succeeds and written in history will be treated as a champion of freedom like jeanne d'arc
Let's be real it does not help 3 Houses has like 4 realities where the chars change greatly per route. In her route she doesn't even have the backstory bit that makes her evil. It's never referred to.
I don't think that matters at all. You don't need some trauma to know that following a dragon and fake church is a bad thing.
You also dont need trauma to know that allying yourself with Genocide Cult-kun is a bad thing either.
but she didn't ally the Agarthans, are you one of those people who didn't play the game?
Says the Guy allying with the feudalism build on eugenics
I think its hilarious that you think I am a Dimitri fan. I think both are poorly written and I hate them both.
Obviously I'm not a fan of Edelgard as a character, not helped by the discourse but - Information she knows is different from what WE as the player know - Her support chain with Manuela understandably has her worry that what she'll do could affect the followers of the goddess - As memetic as it is, crests really are to blame. Ask Ingrid, Sylvain, and Dorothea
Edit: WHY THE FUCK DOES IT ALWAYS LEAD INTO EDELGARD DISCOURSE
it's because of Deontological ethics. ie some things/actions are inherently bad, and if you do them you're bad. Starting wars is bad, so Edelgard is bad, and there's no context or anything else that can chnage that for people.
there's also the historical national background of redditors at play. back in the day there was a huge poll and it showed the people who hated Edelgard the most were first worlders who don't have the most experience in their history classes curricula with independence wars and revolutions.
To continue on from this.
3House writern is way that it hopes the player has enough media literacy, are able to read between the lines but a large knowledge on different subject to understand the full context of it narrative and it messages.
House is willing to not tell the player the answer to plot points and makes them figure out themselves. It is also willing to actively lie to the player and misinform them to tie back into it larger narrative and messages.
You see this with how Non-CF frame Edelgard as a total dictator who aims to make herself Fódlan new gods the second she declares war.
This is a lie, created by the two individual who made themselves Saint figure within a religion they created (Rhea and Seteth). It is fear mongers which see a lot do in this route as rather then giving a good criticise towards Edelgard rebellion against status quo, she is often demonised instead.
In reality, Edelgard is the only lord who actively aims to not die in power from old age and instead retire once she achieved her goals. Edelgard as a emperor, also deals with disagreement in a healthy way and tries to come to a middle ground. In fact, she and Claude are the only individual who doesn't purge their own people, specifically those who had disagreement and have different beliefs.
However, there need to be an understanding that there are flaws to 3House writing which is made worst by mistranslation.
If the player are not being taught by the game to pick up on when character are lying to them or that they don't know the full truth, then the player are going to takes lies as truth.
This issues is at it worst with plot points that are tied to "reading between the lines", that are never full explained to the player. Since it is assuming all the player can do it. When some player can't and it something you can't really fault player for since not everyone get good education. Some player has Autism which can effect someone abilities to read between the lines.
Like House has amazing writing, but every other games, there are flaws because there is no such thing as a perfect story.
I personally think three houses has aged poorly in some ways when it comes to writing, but the amount of trust it has in the player to figure things out is not one of them
I really enjoyed being able to piece everything together
I'm not saying the trust in the player is a bad things per say.
It one of those aspect where it need to have consistent writing. Something neither House or Hopes really have at times. Especially depending on the route.
For example. White Cloud exist as a set up for the second half for the game, a set up that is really effective in giving the player the understands of Fódlan worldbuilding and it's issues. (I count paralogue and support that normally unlock in WC as a part of it.)
However, a lot of this set goes onto being unused by 3/4 routes, with the issues not being resolved or given a explaination until the endings. In fact the central issues of Crest, the corrupt noblity and the hints towards the Church being a oppressive organisation that has major control over Fódlan completely disappears from the game. A lot of effort put into developing the worldbuilding goes away because it doesn't match the story the part 2 wants to tell
Don't get me wrong. I love piecing the narrative, worldbuilding and lore together, part of why I am excited for FW is how many question I now have about Fódlan lore.
But when the messaging between the route conflict with each other, where certain route narrative can even implode because of the confliction between the narrative, the worldbuilding and the larger story themes. (I partly blame the arguments about this game and it characters that been happening for 6+ years on the writing because people are able to come to two different conclusion that completely conflict with each because of the inconsistent writing.)
Then I think it probably best that they should have less trust in the player and the story clear for the goal of a more consistent writing.
u/WinterWolf18 i am so sorry. i'm just as frustrated with edel discourse as you are, i should've kept silent
It's fine, I don't blame you at all.
I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying she's the person who would be in the future called a hero due to the fact that she was looking out for the greater good. Yes she did astrocious things to do it. Welcome to humanity and society where if you die you don't get a second chance.
It's almost like we have real world situations happening right now that are telling of this exact scenario.
Edelgard would have been an unanimously acclaimed character just like Arvis if they had stuck to her being an antagonist with good intentions but bad actions.
The issue remains that Crimson Flower just tries to twist her as a protagonist and it... doesnt really work that well. Her entire thing is doing bad things with alleged good intentions, but her being rash, untrusting and deeply traumatized means that she cant see beyond her own needs.
This is even something people bring up to her. In the face of nobility's generational wealth and the common people's generational poverty, her meritocracy ideals are just swapping crests for landowning and monetary power as the reason why nobility will stay in power.
Her end goal being removing crests as the icon of sociopolitical power ends up implying that, deep down, she is more interesting on appeasing her own trauma and that of other nobility youth than actually bettering society. She has no real commoner member of her group. Her entire character feels like a well-meaning but ultimately noble from FFT, not a FE protagonist.
This would have been an excellent character, someone with actual layers (her being right but also wrong)... but they needed to make her someone who wins and is always right in her route, while remaining the antagonist in the other routes
Protagonist does not mean "good guy". It means "main character". Antagonist does not mean "bad guy", it means "against the protagonist".
The words you are looking for are Hero and Villain.
You can have villain protagonists and hero antagonists. Edel is a Villain.
I know, dont treat me like a moron.
Sadly, most Edelstans dont see Edelgard as a villain, because she is the protagonist of their chosen route.
While you can 100% have villain protagonists, Edelgard's mid development swap into protagonist of her own route means that they tried to whitewash and absolve her out of her most damning actions and intentions (while also removing any sort of fall out for allying herself with Cult-kun), while also keeping her as some kind of insane selfish dictator outside her route.
My apologies, the way you were using Pro/Ant/agonist was. Synonymous with Hero/Villain instead of it being clear you understood the difference. I understand if that was not your intention, and I'm sorry that I made you feel like a moron.
I have no dog in the 3H discourse. I hate 3H as whole. I don't actually care how Edelstans or Edelhaters feel about it because the whole game is a tar pit to me, and Edel is a prime example of why, for many of the same reasons you're complaining about here.
My only dog in this is that people as a whole stop mistaking protag for hero and antag for villain.
It's really funny how a few minutes ago I made a comment about how people think Edelgard did nothing wrong and boom you appeared
"did nothing wrong". Want to directly quote where i said that? IT's REALLY hilarious how u/WinterWolf18 proves exactly how you people can't understand that and boom you appear.
Edit: People like you would call the french revolution awful and oppressive.
Sick block dude. Maybe don't create fictional arguments. Bro can't even quote where i said "did nothing wrong" lol. Also, imagine calling someone a moral prick because you literally created a fictional argument. Mhmm. Righto dude.
u/Endless2358
never said it was a personal attack. I said he created an argument out of thin air by saying something I didn't say. The dude himself is the one creating discourse/ The irony here though.
u/Endless2358
except that's literally what happens when you put words into other people's mouths. Maybe don't do that?
They were just pointing out that it’s funny that they’d just made a comment referring to people starting 3H discourse and came across 3H discourse right after - it wasn’t a personal attack calm down
Yeah no, I'm not letting you bait me into an argument. Nice try though.
lmao said the guy who literally created an argument to fit his narrative. Lmao it's so hilarious that in games like FE that require critical thinking and people who actually understand history can't understand the nuance. Lmao.
I didn't create an argument, it was a one off, humorous comment. You're just a smug prick who feels morally superior because you happen to like a video game character.
People like you are why 3H discourse is so toxic.
The point is that they were not creating an argument at all, just pointing out the humour in 3H discourse appearing out of nowhere. You’re the one spawning an argument out of a comment that did not accuse you of anything. They didn’t even say that you specifically said “Edelgard did nothing wrong”
seeing this getting downvoted is so sad.
You know who wanted to create a better world for his people?
I guess you know who I am talking about ;)
I can only apologize I didn't want to bring discourse I just thought it was worth bringing up the issue with 3H's character writing.
It is funny. Because it just hit me. I didn't like Leonie because she was all, "Jeralt, Jeralt, Jeralt" but technically Soren is all "Ike, Ike, Ike" and he's one of my favorite characters.
Look...Soren is just built different. Plus yeah Leonie got SO upset that my Byleth was the daughter of the ESTEEMED Jeralt of the Holy Sun and every day I didn't prove my worth was another day of her wishing she could smite me down and take my place. Idk why I pitied her at first and abducted her into the Blue Lions...Dmitri deserved better...at least I got Dorothea and Bernie to make up for that mistake!
I mean the big thing is that for the VAST majority of the games no one knows Soren is half Laguz so he’s just treated as human so he never really gets the “worst of both worlds” except for his backstory.
Yea but its revealed in the second game that a lot of laguz have an instinctive fear/revulsion/hatred towards branded even if they don't know they're branded. Micaiah and that one catgirl for example.
I see so, so, so much Soren discourse and it really is tiring. People want perfect victims soooooo bad and it's absolute insane. Not everyone is going to react the same way. Soren is entirely understandable for his extreme behavior, but he's still in a state of needing to be helped and have his behavior corrected while understanding he doesn't have to be that way because not everyone is going to hurt him like that anymore. He has a family that loves him now, it's okay to let go of some of that aggression and those fears. I love Soren so much, legitimately top 2 favorite FE characters of all time, right alongside Ike. (As it should be.)
Exactly. If anything I'm glad Soren isn't a perfect victim, he's super messy and has so much emotional baggage which is a lot more realistic then someone whose just ok the next day but is still somewhat traumatized. All of this just makes the scene at the end where he cries in Ike's arms all the more impactful as well, it makes me sad that people only discuss the hug he shares with Ike due to ship discourse but it's actually pretty heartbreaking when you think about it. It's not just a hug, it's an abuse victim finally breaking down after reopening a massive wound and the person whose supported him every bit along the way comforting and accepting him.
Also you have good taste. He's my favorite FE character and my second favorite character in all of fiction (only being beaten out by Sayaka from Madoka). It's impressive how he's had a chokehold on me for this long but it just goes to show what a good character he is.
As someone who just started playing POR for the first time, my annoyance with Soren was just this scene, and only from a practical POV.
You've got issues Soren, I get it. But maybe don't antagonize the people who just came here to save our asses. Especially because they could both stomp a mud hole in your ass and we've got no one to give us help besides the Gallians.
You're supposed to be the smart one, control yourself in this one critical moment, would you?
Not disagreeing or forcing you in a certain narrative but I just like to reiterate that Soren is a traumatised teenager, yes, he’s extremely smart and controlled but still just a teen dealing with his trauma and coping and sometimes emotions flare out and that’s precisely what happened.
He had extremely traumatic experiences with the Laguz and when Lethe lashed out at the one person who saw him as a someone rather than a punching bag, he got angry and lashed out. A very stupid burst of emotion but a very realistic one.
dont you not learn that stuff till the 2nd game though?
depends on if you read his supports, soren in general kinda requires Ike A support across both games to fully clock, especially given how much focus the narrative gives him.
edit: realized I should explain lol, he gives his full backstory in his ike support in por. thankfully i think pretty much anyone who cares about soren or gay romance will likely angle the soren/ike A anyway and soren's character development works fine as a secondary character otherwise
My advice: don't get so emotionally invested into your favorite characters. A criticism of a character you like is not a criticism of you.
It is fine to like flawed characters, but you have to understand that some people will find these flaws to be a bigger issue than you might.
I'm ok with people not liking Soren though? I'm just not ok with people not reading.
I'm a little confused what it is you're fighting here, the post was a criticism of Ike being a hypocrite and putting up with Soren's hatred of the laguz, nothing to do with Soren as a character. What is the Soren discourse, exactly? What are people not reading? Are they not understanding why Soren is the way he is?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it possible that you saw this post, or another like it, and you were maybe too quick to assume that the person who made it hates Soren and doesn't understand the way he is? To me, this seems like just a funny joke that is pretty accurate, sure it doesn't acknowledge the layers, but it doesn't need to.
Plenty of people know about Soren's tragic past, and they have decided for themselves that his past does not make his current behavior better.
You accuse people of wanting "perfect victims." Well, I don't know about that, but I think it is reasonable to want victims to be better than their abusers because otherwise the cycle of abuse is likely to continue. Sure, it is realistic of Soren to act how he does, and it makes him an interesting character, but he is still not a good person and that is a perfectly reasonable thing to criticize.
Good actions don't make a good person, just like bad actions don't make a bad person. You are simply a person that either makes good or bad actions. Soren, like anyone else, does both. The game also shows him acknowledge the bad things he does and he tries to amend them. I think it's good to acknowledge the bad things characters do, but it's very surface level to say, "thing bad, therefore, bad person," and be done with it.
I guess that's where /u/WinterWolf18 is coming from, probably just tired from surface level criticism of one of their favorite characters.
Ike: “I can fix him.”
AND DID!!
Bless Ike and his magic cock, banged the racist out of him fr fr
Real "Most racist man alive, and his husband," type moment
Ike: “Keep this up and I’m dumping you for Ranulf.”
Ike would never say that lmao, he begged Shinon to come back.
His Merc family is >>> to him and he loves Soren immensely.
Finally someone says it, I’m tired of people saying that Soren would be draining for Ike to deal with as if Ike isn’t the one whose constantly going to check on Soren and assuring him of his worth.
Doesn't he leave/disband the Greil Mercenaries at the end of Radiant Dawn? Leaving with either Soren or Ranulf to "lands unknown
He makes sure they’re taken care of, and pretty much stays with them and then leave with Soren.
Ranulf is implied to follow on his own journey after Ike as Ike is never mentioned in his ending so it’s very similar to those endings where they go separate way, and his ending is the only one where a partner isn’t mentioned. Maybe he finds Ike in his journey but he doesn’t leave with Ike in tow.
Yeah, he pretty much just fucks off, either by himself or with Soren and/or Ranulf, and is never seen again.
Absolutely terrible ending, but on par for the mess that is Radiant Dawn.
Exactly right. God Radiant Dawn is just so irksome. The way it treats its characters and the way the fandom is okay with it is just so strange
It's awkward having copious gay sex next to your familylike team tents
Sorry, but Ike is kinda the one enabling Soren so ain’t no way he’s saying all this s. The mfker go to Soren 24/7
The games and supplementary material really push the idea of throuple, ironically.
Honestly I never got that vibe (though I do really like the idea), it feels more like Heroes, Engage, the Stage Play and the drama CD are heavily pushing Ike/Soren if anything else. Though Ranulf's case is a lot more unfortunate given his VAs scandal which left IS not wanting to touch any character his va voiced for a few years.
Ranulf is canonically the only laguz that Soren trusts and feels comfortable around. And rides him. Its mostly the localization removing a lot of scenes from the extended script.
tbf Heroes added Ranulf 2 years after Ike and Soren, Engage doesnt have him at all, etc.
"Ranulf is canonically the only laguz that Soren trusts and feels comfortable around. And rides him. Its mostly the localization removing a lot of scenes from the extended script."
Wait what material says or shows that? I'm curious
Agreed. And frankly, the va thing happened after the cd drama and tellius valentine was released the same year Ranulf was added so the VA was no factor here.
The CD drama focused on the chapter in which Ranulf joins in Rd for the first time and yet it was just Ike, Soren, Titania, Bk, Sothe and Micaiah focused.
Ranulf is just not that important to tellius as people seem to think and it’s clear the devs ship and push Ike and Soren.
Honestly, the only people I’ve seen ship Ike and Ranulf are those individuals that dislike Soren and those that self insert into Ranulf and want to ship themselves with Ike. No hate, but it’s a fact.
Eh I'm fine with Ike/Ranulf and don't really think it means people dislike Soren. It's not like people who ship Eliwood with Fiora and Lyn hate Ninian by default and want to self insert, they just have a different preference. Yes there are some that hate on Soren and think Ike deserves better but that doesn't make up the majority of Ike/Ranulf shippers I've met.
Also to play devil's advocate for the CD Drama and Valentines: those were Greil Merc focused (at least on Ike's side of the drama CD) so Ranulf wouldn't have made sense.
The valentine, I’ll give you that, but the CD dramas focus was arc-based. If it was Greil merc focused. Mist 100% would’ve been a part of it. It was basically a Mica/Sothe Ike/Soren parallel fest, the two tellius lords and their respective partners. Ike clashes against Micaiah and Sothe clashes against Soren - giving even more indication towards that. If they wanted, Ranulf could’ve easily replaced Titania especially since his VA had been in the studio but they didn’t.
It’s very telling.
And I’m glad, but unfortunately, I’ve always dealt with the extreme rude side of his fanbase. The type that lie, dismiss Soren, fabricate Ike and Sorens interactions and insert their opinion in every ikesoren related post ever.. but you’re right, I shouldn’t generalise. I really do hope most are chill.
The CD Drama probably wanted three for three seeing as no one in the Dawn Brigade had been cast at the time so they picked Titiana and Soren for Ike's side and the Black Knight and Sothe for Micaiah's. One thing I will say is that I don't think it was VA based though, Soren's va is pretty huge in Japan and was working on tons of big projects at the time so they probably just wanted Soren for both the Stage Play and the Drama CD and were somehow able to work something out. Mist WAS supposed to be at a live reading at the second Expo with Ike's va but that was cancelled due to Covid.
Also I've never seen any Ike/Ranulf shippers do that, most I've met are pretty chill (ironically I've dealt with Ike/Elincia shippers like that though). I hope you can deal with said chill said of the fanbase one day.
What supplementary material?
There a CD drama
A stage play
The tellius recollection books that claim that Ike feels love for Soren and their two hearts become one after their secret base conversation.
They’re all Ikesoren focused though as I don’t know any material that ships or pushes Ranulf or all three. Theres also heroes and engage that heavily ship Ikesoren.
It's ok he had two hands
To be fair to Ike Soren acted like this openly once (please correct me if i'm wrong) and his heritage makes things complicated. Meanwhile you have Jill, from Daein, the country where children are told to hate demi-human at school and is a complete stranger. Even when Ike doesn't necessarily know what Daein does his skepticism is honestly warranted.
Also there might be some favouritism for Soren they knew each other for most of their life. It's like the "Look he was there for me" meme just less extreme
Radiant Duology the only game that canonically solves racism: it’s gay love. Ike x Soren, Lethe x Jill, Shinon x Rolf
Edit: /s needed, apparently.
Edit 2: Guys, I get it, the age gap between Ike and Soren is deeply problematic, I know
Shinnon x Janaff*
Replacing a 20 year age gap with a ~100 year age gap, smh fam
You had a nice thing going but that last one... what? lmao
Twas just a jest about problematic gay relationships, y’all never seen Call Me By Your Name?
Wait then why did you put IkeSoren and LetheJill along with problematic ship????
It’s called the “rule of threes”, the first two set the pattern, the third thing is ridiculous/unfitting
Ahh, I see
You know Shinnon is old enough to be Rolf’s dad right?
Yeah, it was a joke
Dude, the last one’s just no. 😭
Tibarn and Reyson were right there lol
Tibarn and Reyson were right fucking there dude
You had me in the first half
Finally, some good fucking culture.
I mean like isn't gay though don't know if anybody is confirmed gay or bi or pan or which ever one in the game or official logs
My Ike the moment I can bench sorin: flood bye you [redacted]
The problem with Sorin is that he is both pretty and really strong.
It's ok Soren is worse.